Differential drop info

[Ascinder]

I have been talking with a couple members here about differential drops lately. I was going to go to the pick n' pull here in town and scavenge some parts off of some troopers and/or rodeos to determine if they could be used on the VX. Long story short, I don't have the time to do that or the money to throw away if they don't work, so I looked it up instead. It seems for those of you wanting to do differential drops to relieve some of that CV angle from lifting, our diff. brackets interchange with 97'-2002 troopers(4 door) WITH TOD. That's not to say the non TOD version won't work, but, being that the brackets may be flimsier on non TOD models is not a chance I'd take or want to be liable for. This would allow you to grab a set out of the junkyard, have your fabwork done while still being able to drive around the whole time, then install whenever you are ready.


I still want to pull a few CV assemblies off of troopers and rodeos to determine if some of the pieces may be applied to the VX. The parts interchange lists them as assemblies that do not swap, but I think that may just be due to overall shaft length. I imagine we may be able to salvage the cups, ball bearings and cages, from one side or the other, and maybe even complete assemblies, provided the differences aren't too great.

[Veggiecross]

I'd just go buy a wrx to save money and time.

[CrnCnn]

I have been talking with a couple members here about differential drops lately. I was going to go to the pick n' pull here in town and scavenge some parts off of some troopers and/or rodeos to determine if they could be used on the VX. Long story short, I don't have the time to do that or the money to throw away if they don't work, so I looked it up instead. It seems for those of you wanting to do differential drops to relieve some of that CV angle from lifting, our diff. brackets interchange with 97'-2002 troopers(4 door) WITH TOD. That's not to say the non TOD version won't work, but, being that the brackets may be flimsier on non TOD models is not a chance I'd take or want to be liable for. This would allow you to grab a set out of the junkyard, have your fabwork done while still being able to drive around the whole time, then install whenever you are ready.


I still want to pull a few CV assemblies off of troopers and rodeos to determine if some of the pieces may be applied to the VX. The parts interchange lists them as assemblies that do not swap, but I think that may just be due to overall shaft length. I imagine we may be able to salvage the cups, ball bearings and cages, from one side or the other, and maybe even complete assemblies, provided the differences aren't too great.


Sweet!!!



I'd just go buy a wrx to save money and time.


That sounds like a personal problem. There is no fun in that.

[Ascinder]

I'd just go buy a wrx to save money and time.

This guy is a friend of my little brother. They think it's really mature to come over here and try to get us all riled up. If I drove a bone stock civic, I wouldn't even admit to it on a forum about wheelbarrows and tricycles.:laughgray:laughgray:laughgray:nog::nog: ;puke:

[orion]

So with the drop bracket, will I still have enough diff clearance to drive over a WRX? cuz I don't want one stuck under me, people laughing, sparks flying, you know :bwgy:

[CrnCnn]

So Beau(Ascinder) has not been online since like OCT so I wanted to give this thread a little bump.

Mostly in light of Tones recent offering to make altered brackets. I talked it over with Beau and it seems like this could be done pretty cheap.

[tom4bren]

Darlington OffRoad & Tone both sell the modified brackets & I'll still get them modified for anyone interested for $200 including the crossmember drop brackets.

[CrnCnn]

My issue is cost Tom. I really want this done but cannot afford Tones price and I'm sure Darlingtons either. Not that the price is horrible I just have a hard time spending that kind of mula when I know, working with Beau, I can get it done myself cheaper. Beau posted that the 97'-2002 troopers(4 door) with TOD work. Jolly Roger got some diff drop brackets from Paddoku that look nice but I cannot read the website and I didnt ask how much paid but its another option.

I am not trying to play down Tone, you or darlington. I am just listing thoughts for those who cannot afford it.

[LittleBeast]

My issue is cost Tom. I really want this done but cannot afford Tones price and I'm sure Darlingtons either. Not that the price is horrible I just have a hard time spending that kind of mula when I know, working with Beau, I can get it done myself cheaper. Beau posted that the 97'-2002 troopers(4 door) with TOD work. Jolly Roger got some diff drop brackets from Paddoku that look nice but I cannot read the website and I didnt ask how much paid but its another option.

I am not trying to play down Tone, you or darlington. I am just listing thoughts for those who cannot afford it.

$200 for diff drop brackets?

How is that expensive?

[CrnCnn]

$200 for diff drop brackets?

How is that expensive?

Its expensive when i only 20 dollars in my bank account.

It really isnt that bad.

All I'm sayin is that for some effort on my part and whatever this guy at work might charge I can possibly save.

If not, I will be happy to spend the mula when I get it.

I didnt know that Tom was doin his deal when I posted on this. I guess thats what I get for not reading every post anymore. Also, last I had read was that Darlington did not sell them anymore.

Really, I am not trying to make a stink about it. Just posted some thoughts.

[tom4bren]

Hey, thinking "outside the box" is good. That's how the VX was dreampt up in the first place.

You could always rotate the mounting holes for the axle housing to cut down a little on the U-joint angle increase from the drop. I chose not to since I didn't want to screw up the phase.

You could possibly make spacers to go between the brackets & the frame instead of modifying the brackets. I never liked spacers tho so I didn't go that route.

You could slot all of the holes to make the drop adjustable. I was SCEEERED to try that so didn't.

All kinds of possibilities when you think outside the box.

Tom

[tom4bren]

BTW, the only way I've ever been in contact with Joe Darlington is by email:

darlington-offroad@nc.rr.com

His website kinda didn't work for me - never fully loaded & didn't have any procuct info - just links:

www.darlington-offroad.com

[taylorRichie]

An FYI...

Darlington-offroad.com is no longer anything to do with Darlington Offroad, it appears as though it was poached by bastards who wait for domains to expire, then they buy them, and use them for their own personal advertising, so by clicking the links, they get a small commission (pennies) but enough people do it to make it worth it to them.

If you're going to work with Darlington I'd email Joe.

Just trying to look out for everyone.

[Ascinder]

For $200 bucks this isn't a terrible deal depending on the person. I pretty much told Clint my take on doing anything for the VX. I feel if you have the time, equipment and skills to do it yourself and not the money lying around, then it makes sense to me to have direct accountability of the quality control of your product. I am not trying to stir anything up by saying this, but I really wonder how much consideration was taken into account if one of these units failed. Losing your front axle when wheeling or going down the freeway is potentially lethal in either case. I trust myself to modify my own stuff to that effect, but selling it to other people myself or as a broker would give me pause. These aren't exactly simple things like tube doors or a roof rack. High power stuff moving at high speeds and high precision attach and rely on these to function without breaking. I'm not saying don't buy them, they have no reason to be doubted as the their quality or strength, I justy prefer knowing who is ultimately responsible for my safety. That said, with the extended length of these brackets, I would suggest anyone making them add some gussets or even a short tube welded to the outside of each one to surround the CV cup just to stiffen the design. Longer brackets equal more leverage then shorter ones, and therefore bend more easily. Also, welded metal tends to be more fatigue prone that unwelded, so every bit helps.

[tom4bren]

Good points Ascinder. I hadn't considered any form of added gusseting for strength since it's all a tight fit in that area. I don't think that the differential brackets really carry much of a load anyway. If you look at where they mount to the frame, there is a rubber bushing in there. If they were subject to loads that could potentially break a weld, they would be hard mounted to the frame (IMHO). I've had mine dropped for 6 months now & haven't noticed any signs of trouble.

[Ascinder]

Yeah, we just took mine off for Clint and they looked fine. As far as loading though, they are what holds your center section and are the inside fulcrum points for the CVs so, while the majority of the weight and road loads are supported by the suspension and A-arms, there are a lot of moving things at high speeds connected to these brackets. They also support all of the side loads of the center section, and unfortunately, the brackets are actually weakest in that dimension(hence the gussets). Another concern I would bring up is that is very frowned upon(I didn't know this at the time either) in the welding world of offroading that you don't ever put vertical welds in a vehicle. This allows every bump or hit the vehicle takes the opportunity to start and aggravate a crack right up the weld(which is weak to begin with). Like I said, mine were fine after being in there for well over a year, but it isn't when they're fine that I worry about, it's the big question mark of when they could fail. I just think there are a lot of people out there that automatically assume factory testing, quality, durability, and longevity when they get and install these parts. I think it would be in everyones best interests if the people buying them had to sign a waiver stating that they understand the need for a thourough periodic inspection to continue to guarantee their own safety, and hopefully absolve potential sellers or brokers of these of any unnecessary responsibility. They should also have to disclose the same if the vehicle is ever sold to another person who may be ignorant of their installation.

[Ascinder]

How'd you get away with no vertical welds?

[tom4bren]

Aschinder - we'll have to agree to disagree.

I feel that the majority of the load on the diff brackets is rotational around the 4 axle bolts & since it is a rectangular piece welded in, the welds will not be seeing much strain.

Side loads will be virtually nonexistent since the brackets only locate the center section. If there was any significant side loading, there would have had to be some form of offset mounting to the frame in the stock configuration (& they wouldn't have the rubber bushings). Picture standing a book on end - it's easy to knock it over. Now open the cover slightly to spread out the 'mounting' points transverse to the direction of the force being applied - it's much harder to knock it over.

There's some merit in what you're saying about the vertical welds - but not in this application. These brackets as you stated are isolated from the suspension so will not be seeing any of the road induced shock. There will be some but it's just forces from the weight of the pumpkin. The welds are plenty strong to handle that.

After saying all that - I'm an Electronics Engineer, not a Mechanical Engineer but I've had some experience in mounting weapon systems to vehicles in the past and more recently a cantelevered Ground Penetrating Radar system to vehicles. I'm not pulling this 'out my arse' for the sake of argument.

One comment that you made that I have to agree with 100% is that if you have done this modification and decide to sell your vehicle - a signed declaration & waiver is a very good idea.

Trust me - I thought this through quite a bit before I jumped in with both feet. I didn't do it just because Zeus said I should:). At the rate I was eating CV boots - the risk was well worth the benefit.

Tom

"Even the "pro" didn't have the gonads to mimic my skills!" Don't go there Dude. 'Welder Guy' is sensitive to comments like that.

[Ascinder]

I have vert welds; they are just small. Check my gallery! Even the "pro" didn't have the gonads to mimic my skills!

So to me it looks like you cut out the lower portion of the bracket just above the large hole and slid it down, then slid in a spacer plate and welded it all in place then ground down the welds near the side of the large hole to provide clearance for the CV cup. That sound about right? If that's the case, it looks like you have about 1" or so less vertical weld than me. I'm sure Clint can take a pic of the brackets to show how I did mine.

Tom, you may want to reread my post above. If you do I think you'll find I'm really not disagreeing with you, the points I made are true, as are yours. I was just trying to reiterate that the brackets are weakest sideways and could've used more support there. You do have a fairly heavy center section that is applying forces to the brackets whenever it moves. Yes the bushings do serve to isolate it so what it actually sees abuse wise we'll never know. I am just saying that vibrations and vertical welds are not the best of friends. Just think of this going across washboard trails and the pounding it'll take. Like it or not that center section is acting like water in a glass getting sloshed around whenever you do any quick back and forth turns. All in all I really do think they'll hold up fine, and I think you already know my comments weren't designed as any kind of attack on anyone out there. More to serve as a caution to get people to realize what I said above. Anytime you have mods like this done, they aren't factory tested, abused, etc. so you need to make sure and check them from time to time. You gave me what I was looking for right here:
I thought this through quite a bit before I jumped in with both feet. I just wanted to know someone was paying attention to the small stuff too. I see it pretty often on other boards where you get someone with a good idea and some good intentions, but not a lot of consideration goes into "how safe is this to sell to people". I sure that wasn't even remotely the case here, but it doesn't hurt to make sure.

[tom4bren]

I just didn't want to scare anyone away from doing the mod. I agree with your concerns but the drop brackets don't cause more risk for failure than the lift & running bigger meat.

[tom4bren]

"Well, WormGod said to start a fight club! Let's get it on! "

Dude - you can't hang with the big dogs - you have small vertical welds.

[Ldub]

"Well, WormGod said to start a fight club! Let's get it on! "

Dude - you can't hang with the big dogs - you have small vertical welds.

Not to mention a decidedly dainty radius...:smilewink

[ZEUS]

So to me it looks like you cut out the lower portion of the bracket just above the large hole and slid it down, then slid in a spacer plate and welded it all in place then ground down the welds near the side of the large hole to provide clearance for the CV cup. That sound about right? If that's the case, it looks like you have about 1" or so less vertical weld than me. I'm sure Clint can take a pic of the brackets to show how I did mine. Drop_Thread (http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=12100&highlight=diff+drop+brackets) I should have just posted this before. I couldn't find any pics of your brackets, but if you did yours like BigMeatVX did his, then you should have twice as much vertical weld because you welded two vertical seams, where as I have one. Like I said in my build thread, both designs should hold up just fine, and I am not worried. It did cross my mind to weld a 5/8" rod inside the radius to connect the 3 pieces together, but I felt it was overkill. Again, USE THREADLOCK!

[tom4bren]

BTW,

Two things that I noticed when I installed my drops:

1. You'll need to extend, stretch or replace the axle vent hose.

2. You need to notch the passenger side on the rear where the bracket curves in. There's a bolt on the pumpkin that'll hit. (I took a pic for JHarris but haven't posted it yet - it's on my laptop so I can't get to it from here - I'll post it tonite).

Tom

[tom4bren]

"The berries are bigger than the twig..."

I have no response to that.

[Ascinder]

Zeus, are you saying you didn't weld the lower sections of your brackets on the sides, just to the 2" portion horizontally?

[tom4bren]

Zeus was able to find a piece of stock with matching curvature (from a jeep bumper). He cut the diff bracket such that he retained the large hole for the axle and the 2 lower mounting bolt holes. This cut piece was positioned 2" lower and the donor piece from the bumper was welded in place to fill the 2" gap. Basically he traded one vertical weld for a horizontal weld (1 vertical & 2 horizontal). That's why he didn't have the interference issue with one of the bolt heads on the pumpkin that I mentioned earlier). His are welded all the way around even though it doesn't look like it in his picture since he ground down the lowest section of the vertical weld.

The way that BigMeat did it (& I copied) was to cut out only the flat center section and replace with new material (retaining the curved areas in place). We ended up with 2 vertical welds and 1 horizontal. IIRC this is the same method that Joe Darlington uses.

Did I get it right Zeus???

[Ascinder]

Ok, how I did mine was just to cut out the area around all four bolt holes and of course the CV hole and slide the piece down vertically, then weld in a 2" spacer. I retained the curvature and meat on both sides of the piece, so I guess mine was a little different than both. The advantage mine had was having all the holes line up flawlessly since they are the factory originals. This saved time laying out and drilling new holes, and I don't end up with extras that go unused. I didn't have to clearance anything either. I'll talk to Clint tonight to see if he'll throw up some pics.

[tom4bren]

I'll mention your method to 'Welder Guy' next time I see him to see if that's a better approach but I think he's already fabricated several sets of blanks for insertion & fabricated jigs for welding. He'll probably just stick with the process he's already used.

[ZEUS]

Zeus was able to find a piece of stock with matching curvature (from a jeep bumper). He cut the diff bracket such that he retained the large hole for the axle and the 2 lower mounting bolt holes. This cut piece was positioned 2" lower and the donor piece from the bumper was welded in place to fill the 2" gap. Basically he traded one vertical weld for a horizontal weld (1 vertical & 2 horizontal). That's why he didn't have the interference issue with one of the bolt heads on the pumpkin that I mentioned earlier). His are welded all the way around even though it doesn't look like it in his picture since he ground down the lowest section of the vertical weld.

The way that BigMeat did it (& I copied) was to cut out only the flat center section and replace with new material (retaining the curved areas in place). We ended up with 2 vertical welds and 1 horizontal. IIRC this is the same method that Joe Darlington uses.

Did I get it right Zeus???Yessir, you got it. It was easier for me to make those 2 cuts on the original brackets... like butta. Three cuts seemed like too much of a PITA for my lazy PITA.

[Ascinder]

Three cuts seemed like too much of a PITA for my lazy PITA.
Well let me tell you what I did for mine. A whole day cutting the pieces out with a Dremel. I wanted the cuts to be as small as possible to minimize the area the weld had to bridge to keep the strength high. It worked, but took forever. I blew up several packs of Dremel discs doing that. Then there's the annealing after the welding and the shot peening and the magnaflux, then the sandblasting and finally off to powdercoat. I think I made up my time doing my crossmember which is just four plates with two big holes on top which fit around the existing "gussets" the original bolts passed through and two smaller holes on bottom for each, and four lengths of heavy pipe to act as stiffening spacers between the plates on the lower holes where the bolts pass through. I got some grade 8 coated bolts, some of which had to be installed in reverse for clearance reasons. All in all the crossmember project only took me about an hour total.

[pbkid]

sorry, i havent exactly been following this thread because you guys got over my head....
were you guys successful in getting the diff brackets complete??
and whats the purpose? to lower the CV axle angle right?
does that allow you to also lift your VX higher??

with longer shocks, longer springs, and diff drop brackets can the VX be lifted higher than 3"????

i've kinda been searching for a way to get my VX taller than it is...been looking at doing the body lift, calmini lift...just trying to find something...

[Ascinder]

were you guys successful in getting the diff brackets complete??

Yes, mine was sitting at 4 1/2" at Moab last year, but I was tearing boots. Mine have been done for quite some time now. The diff drop lets you lessen the angle of the CVs by lowering the axle center section where the inner CV cups mount up. By dropping it down, you have less stress on your CVs. Most people use this to bring their ~3" lifted CV angles down closer to paralell with the ground. When you lift 3", the outer CV drops down 3", while the inner stays the same. What the drop does is move the inner CV down 1.5" to 2" depending on how far down you made your brackets go. This makes a 3" lift look like a 1.5" or 1" lift to your CVs. What I did on mine was use the 2" the drop gave me to move my outers down even more. You should also be using low profile or ultra low profile bumpstops on your upper A arms or you won't be able to crank the torsion bars enough before they hit the factory bump stops. Another thing I had to do was re-index my torsion bars which means unloading them, pulling the mounting brackets off, letting the A arms fall to approximately lifted angles, then reattaching the torsion bar brackets and reinserting the rods, and then cranking them to normal specs. If you don't do this step, you are placing excessive stress on the torsion bars which makes them either fatigue really fast and lose springiness, or simply snap. That's why no one likes lifting above 3". Above that, you have to do a lot more work. I had to replace my rear factory bumpstops in the back with larger aftermarket versions and 2.5" square steel spacers to make the rear axle articulate properly, plus use coil spring compressers to even get my spacers in place. I could probably also use longer shocks in the rear, but I haven't had any issues with that yet, so I'll wait till I do. I also ran longer brake lines all around so I didn't run the danger of snapping them off when stuff begins to move.

[pbkid]

alright, i get it now...

i have mine cranked, probably 2.5-3" of lift right now and i havent had any problems yet, but of course i didnt do it the very best way...

i also havent had any CV issues, YET..... however, i lowered my integra 2.5 in the front and 2" in the back and i have gone through 4 or 5 CV's on that car in 2 years...luckily they are only $80 and i can do it myself...

[Ascinder]

i have mine cranked, probably 2.5-3" of lift right now and i havent had any problems yet, but of course i didnt do it the very best way...

You only need to index them if you lift beyond 3" I think, then the bars are seeing quite a bit of stress. At 2.5-3" you should be fine. People have been running it that way for years with little to no trouble. As for your car, the amount of stress on the CVs has a lot to do with shaft length. The shorter the center shaft is, the more the angle when you lift. Same thing with the cups. If you have short cups, the balls and cage can get pulled out to the edges and cause wear that way as well.
What we need for the VX is a longer set of A arms and longer CVs and a better way to do drop brackets. Unfortunately, the amount of aggravation it takes to come up with all that is almost as much as just doing a SAS, so that's why we see very little progress in the drivetrain department.

[pbkid]

i see i see....

so once again it comes back to SAS....

[Ascinder]

so once again it comes back to SAS....

Funny how that works huh? For what most of us seem to do with the VX, leaning more towards a SAS direction makes sense. Even though a solid axle doesn't have the greatest rep for high speed desert rally type racing, many have held their own there. With new innovations like full hydraulic steering and lightweight(9" aluminum) center sections to eliminate a lot of the previous problems associated with solid axles, they are being seen more in higher speed builds. Recent Baja events and the newer King of Hammers competition(rock crawling mixed with desert racing) are good examples. I think these new SAS candidates are finally starting to fall into a niche that will be perfectly exploited by the VX. The only problem we have is our oldest one. Everyone talks a big SAS game(myself included) but no one has yet taken the plunge.

[pbkid]

look below, screwed up the first time ;)

[pbkid]

Funny how that works huh? For what most of us seem to do with the VX, leaning more towards a SAS direction makes sense. Even though a solid axle doesn't have the greatest rep for high speed desert rally type racing, many have held their own there. With new innovations like full hydraulic steering and lightweight(9" aluminum) center sections to eliminate a lot of the previous problems associated with solid axles, they are being seen more in higher speed builds. Recent Baja events and the newer King of Hammers competition(rock crawling mixed with desert racing) are good examples. I think these new SAS candidates are finally starting to fall into a niche that will be perfectly exploited by the VX. The only problem we have is our oldest one. Everyone talks a big SAS game(myself included) but no one has yet taken the plunge.
few have tried, none have succeeded...

screw it, build a beefy skid plate, beefy sliders, beefy front and rear bumpers....lock it....hit the skinny pedal when dealing with clearance issues(i know that your not supposed to gas it with lockers, im just saying)

[CrnCnn]

*not for sale*
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/IMG_1310.JPG (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/12879)
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/IMG_1311.JPG (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/12880)
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/IMG_1312.JPG (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/12881)

These are the ones that Beau(Ascinder) built. He asked me to post 'em up to show how he did the welds.

Beau and I were at the junkyard yesterday and I was checking out the brackets on a trooper. They look identical. Also, it had the skid plates I believe many are after. I am gonna confirm the year trooper that the skid plates come from and maybe get them.

[tomdietrying]

p.m. sent.
Peace.
Tom

[tom4bren]

Clint,

Your modified brackets look really nice - good job. I think there's still a pic in my gallery of mine if you want to compare.

For the crossmember drops, 'Welder Guy' took a piece of 3" channel & welded on tabs to replicate the mounting features on the other side. It worked out very well. I still have one set for the calmini crossmember that could be modified for the stock crossmember if anyone is interested.

After all this discussion, I may have to re-think the spacer idea rather than the modified brackets. It may be a better option just for ease of installation.

Tom

[CrnCnn]

Clint,

Your modified brackets look really nice - good job. I think there's still a pic in my gallery of mine if you want to compare.

Tom


Thanks, but those were modded by Beau(Ascinder). I am just the owner of them now.

[tom4bren]

In post #29 of this thread, I said I'd post a pic of the notch I had to make in mine. I did try to post the pic but it never showed up. I'll try again.

[tom4bren]

Pic finally posted. Look in my gallery.

[Ascinder]

That's odd, I don't think I had to do that with mine.:confused:

[LittleBeast]

In post #29 of this thread, I said I'd post a pic of the notch I had to make in mine. I did try to post the pic but it never showed up. I'll try again.

uh, I don't need to do that do I?

[tom4bren]

Ascinder - all I know is that I had to notch mine to clear that bolt. The drop brought the rounded area of the pumpkin down far enough that it interfered with the rounded edge.

LittleBeast - Your's were supposed to be mod'ed with that notch already done. I think I verified that when I picked them up but don't really remember. Easy enough to compare the two brackets - one will have a notch & one won't (only needed on passenger side).

Tom