Every mile costs/ ideas to better the milage

[MoonRaker]

The reason I started this is im sure alot of owners will try anything to get an extra mile or 2 from a gallon of gas. I started looking into alternatives to try adding that extra few miles to a tank. I started here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHXw1QkqV9w&feature=related

and ended up spending long hours doing research into the subject and figured why not do some of my own R&D with a full machine shop at my disposal and around $500 for supplys. I went to some of my supplyers and purchased more then enough materials to make many test mules. I started buy building a replica of the one in the video you just have seen, wait, wait, let me back this up a little. The first trip was to home depot, I bought a bunch of stainless light covers. I assembled a unit and dam, it was doing something?? I was still sceptical so we filled a ballon and it only made a light pop. My boss said this is BS, its not making hydrogen. I was thinking the same thing when he put a torch to the out put hose before I could say no and BOOM, louder then my 9mm and were totaly drenched, covered in acrilic and we felt like we just got clubed in the cheast. Holy Crap what was that.
Well, that was 3 weeks ago and now ive gotten one in the truck, a very efficiant one that makes a good yeild and pulles about 5 amps. Ive seriosly improved my milage from 240, 260 to 280, 300. From what ive heard adding a limited amount makes your gas burn at a leiner air/fuel. So I had to figure out how to lein the VX out. I started drilling holes in the plastic intake foward of the throttlebody and after the maf Every hole I drilled made the maf readings drop voltage on the OBD scaner, and leaned the 02 reading. I ended up drilling almost 20 holes till the truck started rough idling, you could feel it stumble a little bit. I kicked on the hydrogen, solid, maybe slightly better then stock idle. I go for a drive and I was amazed buy how much smoother the VX ran. I havent dynoed it but id swear it has more TQ. Im continuing my work on the hydrogen thing but im a little scared to push more gas because I have no way of changing my timing and feel at the stock timing settings im going to blow my heads off or the crank out the bottom. Any ideas on management would be much appreciated.
My new generator is pumping out 1 psi every 5 seconds, its totaly made of stainless. Its pulling about 6 amps and iv fitted a 170 nozzle causing a very loud hising and 2 psi stable preassure.

[Ascinder]

Wow, I was just looking into this too. What design did you end up using, the outlet/light cover one? What did materials run and how long to fab it up? Everyone I have talked to who is running these setups claims good results, and the process is rooted in long proven science. I am really excited if it pans out long term. Oh, and let's see some pics!:)

[Ldub]

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding this, but by drilling holes in the intake, you're introducing UN-filtered air into your freshly rebuilt engine???:_wrench:

[circmand]

and the next step should be actually testing mpg on a controlled test. So far it seems you are basing everything on feelings, which can be correct, but no actual measurement. I would have thought drilling into a freshly built motor would void the warranty as well as any extended warranty. I want better mpg but if I had an extra $500 I would have put it towards gas it would get you further than 1-2 more mpg.

[kpaske]

So let's see some pics...

[MoonRaker]

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding this, but by drilling holes in the intake, you're introducing UN-filtered air into your freshly rebuilt engine???:_wrench:

Nope, I put a filter over the holes. The engine has over 35,000 on it.

[MoonRaker]

Wow, I was just loking into this too. What design did you end up using, the outlet/light cover one? What did materials run and how long to fab it up? Everyone I have talked to who is running these setups claims good results, and the process is rooted in long proven science. I am really excited if it pans out long term. Oh, and let's see some pics!:)

I used a meyers style tubbing setup, I have 12 tubes total in an acrilic housing.

[MoonRaker]

and the next step should be actually testing mpg on a controlled test. So far it seems you are basing everything on feelings, which can be correct, but no actual measurement. I would have thought drilling into a freshly built motor would void the warranty as well as any extended warranty. I want better mpg but if I had an extra $500 I would have put it towards gas it would get you further than 1-2 more mpg.

Well lets just take my first tank full wich was a test and a prosses of tunning in the hydrogen. I went from 240 miles to 285 on 16 gallons. This was prior to leaning the VX out buy drilling holes and covering them with a filter. I have no warrenty on the truck and I built my motor myself. I wouldnt trust the monkeys at the dealer touching anything. Ive never seen 285 miles out of a tank before so id have to say thats hard evidence, atleast to me. Id post some pictures but im not a paying member so I cant post any pics.

[taylorRichie]

Sounds like it's time for a $20 donation ;)

This is a very interesting build, very excited to see how it goes...

And I was getting 350 per tank before wheels and tires, still getting over 250, and just turned 50,000 an hour ago :)

[MoonRaker]

Ow, total cost for my system in the VX was $180 for the cell, $30 for the acrilic and a relay and wiring were stocked itemes at the shop I work at. The other $290 has gone into other tests wich have proven to be better then expected, 1 psi every 4 or 5 secounds, the nothing to shake a stick at.

[Griffin]

Well, this seems interesting. My girlfriends dad just did this similar setup to his CR-V and is get 7mpg more. He has some kind of module that he controls to output for city and highway driving. To be honest I don't like his setup it is just ugly I think he did for like 40 bucks though.

Could I see some pictures of your setup?

[Ascinder]

I'm sure if you emailed the pics to someone here, they would post them up, or use photobucket or something like that to remote link them. What does the meyers setup do that the light/outlet plate style doesn't do?

[Triathlete]

$500...just buy a bike! WAY better gas mileage, no emissions, and you get a little exercise!:bwgy:

[Ascinder]

$500...just buy a bike! WAY better gas mileage, no emissions, and you get a little exercise!

Or get a lot of exercise and run, then take $500 and put it into the Moab 2009 fund!:p;)

[johnnyapollo]

The Inventor, Stanley Meyer, was conviced of fraud in 1996:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer

It's too bad that his brother is continuing to promote this farce and the "conspiracy" of his murder.

-- John

[Tone]

Ya'll continue to slay me! How many threads are going to be created on this pipe dream with all sorts of gonna do this and gonna do that and a whole lot of nothing being done because it can't? The vehicle has been out for over 11yrs and those who got it first would have corrected this by now. It will never win any MPG awards without changing the facts.

Fact: It's heavy @ 3955 pounds
Fact: It's underpowered for that weight @ 215 HP
It's power to weight ratio = 0.0543615676359 (larger, whole numbers are better for efficiency)
AND it's four wheel drive (do away with the 4WD and it becomes very difficult to control, even with the stock engine)

So, aside from running full air pressure in the tires, flowing more air in and out of the engine (w/o over doing it - no 3"+ pipes), driving properly, and correcting your mistaken calculations for non-oem tire sizes, it's gonna be what it is.

You bought the wrong vehicle for MPG and performance w/ one of a kind styling. If you spend $4500 to put in a bigger and more efficient motor AND drivetrain, it 'll take you four+ YEARS to realize the savings IF you can gain even a 10mpg increase doing so.

And since most of the chatter is from those who bought into this vehicle at WELL below sticker unlike the rest of us, I don't see ANY ONE putting 50%+ of their purchase price BACK into an 8+ yr old high mileage vehicle. But then again they sell a LOT of Tornados and Fuel Magnets.....

You're on the planet for a finite time: either enjoy what you drive or drive a Prius and STFU! "The real question is, when you turn your car on, does it return the favor?" Or it just a generic device to get you from point A to B?

[Solitude]

AMEN.. well said

[circmand]

Frankly if it hadnt been along time member I would have said this guy was full of it but since it was I asked for proof. If the people who run this site were inclined to eliminate these types of BS posts I would not have a problem. Salute to Tone for calling out this BS artist

[Solitude]

I did see a kit like that on ebay for just over a grand.. someone musta hit the buy it now button

[MoonRaker]

Hmm, interesting. I wounder what they found fraudulent about his work. If it was a fraud why did NASA hire him? Why did he sign a defense contract a week before he died?
Ok heres some more food for thought. Water is a compound of the elements oxygen and hydrogen. H2O, how do you split a compound, you excite the elements enough to split with somthing like electricty. Check this out, its guys taking it to the next level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9NvboKL43Q

Still a critic, hears another test, I thought at first it was a fuel like alcahol but I notice water running down the plug and that woulda burst the whole place into flames.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I&NR=1

So I see now why he ended up in court for fraud, he mostlikly had a pissed off investor who got a couple of scientests to say its impossible. Its funny what scientists say is impossible, like atomic explosions before the first atom bomb was set off. If you get the rite jurry you can be convicted of anything or nuthing, especialy if they belive the other guy. Just ask OJ.

[MoonRaker]

Im not here trying to sell you guys anything, im just informing you of what im working on at the moment and what ive learned. I just thought you might have some intrest. Im the kinda of person that dosnt belive until I see it. Yeh, I had a pipe dream of running Baja and it was just that, not enough support and a bad econamy effects everyone. Im just looking at options to better the planet and us buy alternatives to fossil fuel. Im a chill guy so I dont like to argue, just kick back and see what happens, you never now, you might be surprised. :cool:

[Ldub]

Here's an article on the topic that may be of interest to those involved in this discussion...:_wrench:

http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?fc_c=1123885x2468668x56782708&id=59703

[MoonRaker]

What kind of volume would you guys think youd need to totaly run your car on hydrogen with a preasure system. Ive seen some systems that have a 10,000 psi holding tank that gets on average of 300 miles to a fill but thats on a compact. Id say the tank looks like a 10 gallon. Its highway leagal and impact safe with a switch that shuts the tank off, probly hooks up to the same system as the airbags. The only drawback of burning hydrogen is water after burn and whats needed to be done to purge the engine before shutdown. With what im using I just shut the hydrogen off for a minute. Im thinking of trying a system like that on my mazda after it gets out of the body shop. I figure after the initial cost alls you need to do is plug it in when you get home and not go more then the gas range. Check these out

http://www.qtww.com/products/afsch/injectors.php

[circmand]

I would think just like gas hydrogen mpg or whatever they call would be different based on hte vehicle as well. I have been checking my miles per tank and frankly I am getting 300+/- with regular gas per tank. This is what the starter of this post stated he was getting after he installed the equipment. I wonder if this is a case of paying more attention to driving habits and not hydrogen?

[Ascinder]

All I know is that everyone I've talked to that has had a device similar to this installed has reported positive results that even taken conservatively show promise. Bottom line is that internal combustion engines are so far from efficient it's ridiculous. I think instead of immediately storming this thread with naysayer posts, how about something constructive and supported. Yes this vehicle does tip two tons on the scales, but when a 550 HP V-8 beats us in mileage, it means our engine just aint doing something right. Everyone I mention our mileage to seems to think it doesn't sound right. So if injecting hydrogen and oxygen into the air charge makes for more complete and even combustion, then that makes sense to me. Look at nitrous oxide. It sounds unreasonable that throwing some "special gas" in the air charge could increase horsepower 50-150%, but it does. It's really not that unrealistic to say that changing what the engine breathes changes how well it works. How well does your metabolism work when you eat junk food vs. eat healthy-same with engines folks.:rolleyes:

[MoonRaker]

Well, today I was looking for volume buy filling a 10 gallon tank. It seems im looking at 1 psi every 10 minutes, give or take. Keep in mind its only 1 hydrogen generator pulling 2 amps at 12 volts. Ive also mixed in a little bakingsoda to give a little extra electrolight to the distilled water. The volume output isnt as high as id like, my goal is 1 psi a minute on a max of 10 amps for a 10 gallon container. If I can get it even better thats great. Any ideas??? It seems that surface area of stainless is a key also. I tryed another test to see what effects the hydrogen has on other gases buy placing a propane torch over a open cell [no preassure or enclosier] and it deffinatly makes the gas burn faster. It would cut the lenth of flame in half showing a quiker burn.

[MoonRaker]

Ive never seen more then 260 miles out of a tank without the hydrogen so I guess you drive like granny :eek: lol.

[nfpgasmask]

My whole thing is this:

The VX is a gas guzzler. That is what it is. Like Tone said, if you want a fuel efficient vehicle, you should sell your VX and get something else. I have toyed with the idea of buying another vehicle that gets better mileage, keeping the VX for weekends, wheeling, camping, etc. But then I have another vehicle to insure and maintain, and another car payment. So I might as well just save that money and buy gas for my VX and try to baby it as much as I can. Investing a boat load of money to save money on gas is counter-productive.

Now, Moonraker, if you are saying only an inexpensive mod can save you all this money on gas, maybe there is something, but wouldn't everyone be doing it?? If there is REALLY something to this, why aren't shops across America equipping vehicles with this simple "fix" for poor efficiency? I'm not saying the whole process is a load of crap, but I do not understand why everyone wouldn't do it if it was a simple and worked as good as you say.

Also, if you ARE indeed saving money on gas, maybe you could kick in $20 of that extra cash you should now have so you can upload some photos! ;)

Bart

[Techy-D]

Hey MoonRaker, I think that's cool!

I love to tinker with ideas and try to gain an understand why things do or don't work. Sounds like that's what you are going for. I rarely find the time for those little pet projects, so I applaud your effort and descriptions of anything you learn about this subject.
My guess is that you won't learn or achieve exactly what you intended, but as many have in the past you will learn something else that surprizes you even more! (and have a blast doing it) :)

It looks like this device isn't seperating the Hydrogen from the Oxygen, so it's a new concept to me. If burning it as you make it, this should be fine. If storing it, you would want to just store the Hydrogen, cuz theres lots of Oxygen to be had from the air as you need it.

Also, I'm not sure that you can't upload photos if not a member. I think you are just limited in storage space???

Keep working on your dreams, stick with the facts, share with those who are interested, oh and most importantly be SAFE. :)

My 2.499999999 cents worth

[MoonRaker]

My whole thing is this:

The VX is a gas guzzler. That is what it is. Like Tone said, if you want a fuel efficient vehicle, you should sell your VX and get something else. I have toyed with the idea of buying another vehicle that gets better mileage, keeping the VX for weekends, wheeling, camping, etc. But then I have another vehicle to insure and maintain, and another car payment. So I might as well just save that money and buy gas for my VX and try to baby it as much as I can. Investing a boat load of money to save money on gas is counter-productive.

Now, Moonraker, if you are saying only an inexpensive mod can save you all this money on gas, maybe there is something, but wouldn't everyone be doing it?? If there is REALLY something to this, why aren't shops across America equipping vehicles with this simple "fix" for poor efficiency? I'm not saying the whole process is a load of crap, but I do not understand why everyone wouldn't do it if it was a simple and worked as good as you say.

Also, if you ARE indeed saving money on gas, maybe you could kick in $20 of that extra cash you should now have so you can upload some photos! ;)

Bart

That sounds kinda like the last used car salesman I spoke to when I bought my VX. Ive sent out a few pics of the model Ive built. They can be posted buy others but the other work is classified info. Ill drop the ball soon enough. $20 bucks buys almost 4.5 gallons of gas and 20 gallons of water.

[MoonRaker]

Hey MoonRaker, I think that's cool!

I love to tinker with ideas and try to gain an understand why things do or don't work. Sounds like that's what you are going for. I rarely find the time for those little pet projects, so I applaud your effort and descriptions of anything you learn about this subject.
My guess is that you won't learn or achieve exactly what you intended, but as many have in the past you will learn something else that surprizes you even more! (and have a blast doing it) :)

It looks like this device isn't seperating the Hydrogen from the Oxygen, so it's a new concept to me. If burning it as you make it, this should be fine. If storing it, you would want to just store the Hydrogen, cuz theres lots of Oxygen to be had from the air as you need it.

Also, I'm not sure that you can't upload photos if not a member. I think you are just limited in storage space???

Keep working on your dreams, stick with the facts, share with those who are interested, oh and most importantly be SAFE. :)

My 2.499999999 cents worth

The oxygen in the hydrogen also acts like an excelerant but I scratched the idea of storage. It seems that you can only make so much before it starts costing effeciancy and builds alot of heat. I have one settup on the bench that im doing the preassure testing with. Its a tubler settup but bigger and solid stainles. Its the one id be affraid of using in my VX unless I can change the timming. After it reaches 130 it tends to kinda boil over so im still working on electrolite mixture to keep it below that. Also if you use anything that isnt pure stainles as a metal you run into contamination issues wich if you dont change the water often it becomes a heat issue also. Im also trying to avoid a situation like this or worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e85aPS6P72A

[MoonRaker]

I was woundering if anyone has had any experiance with the Gready E manage engine managment system on a VX. I ask this because I have one on the shelf.

[MoonRaker]

Pay close attention to #8
http://www.primeideas.info/patents.html

[Techy-D]

You might also check out:
http://www.hydrogenht.com/

http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/01/smallbusiness/blacklight.fsb/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote

[MoonRaker]

Nice reading. Seems alot of people are liking hydrogen.

Well, made a few adjustments. I move the imput of hydrogen to the intake from the PCV. I patched up all the holes and settup a controled vacume bleed. It seems the ECU trimmed its self to the stock perameters, all except the MAF the other way.

[MoonRaker]

Well, looking hopfull, even better then the 285 mile till the idiot light for gas came on. On that test I had seen 34 miles before the pass of the full mark. This tank is 38.

[MoonRaker]

Well, 298. I need to figure out a certain way to lean out the mix to get anymore. My boss and I took his car out to do some testing. This is an RX8. We got on the highway and he just started pulling out fuel, we leaned out the mix to 19/1 air fuel, any further dosnt register. Then we continued to lean it out a few more points and it didnt feel like it was running that lean, usauly it bucks and stumbles starting at 15/1. Well for the big test I turned off the generator and the car died. We pulled over and had to add 30% fuel to get it running again. Hmmm

[Techy-D]

Nice reading. Seems alot of people are liking hydrogen.

Well, made a few adjustments. I move the imput of hydrogen to the intake from the PCV. I patched up all the holes and settup a controled vacume bleed. It seems the ECU trimmed its self to the stock perameters, all except the MAF the other way.

Are you using a ScanGauge or something to see what the system is doing? I'd be interested in the Fuel Injector Trim #'s, as this may be an indicator of what's happening in there. (I've played a bit with them to help figure out my problems, you have to program them into the Scangauge - Xgauge)

[MoonRaker]

Are you using a ScanGauge or something to see what the system is doing? I'd be interested in the Fuel Injector Trim #'s, as this may be an indicator of what's happening in there. (I've played a bit with them to help figure out my problems, you have to program them into the Scangauge - Xgauge)

Ive figured out whats happining with the trims, it seems that the foward wideband 02s want to see around 700 and even if you try to show less flow across the maf (2 volts less) it trims to compansate. I have a trouble code thats been there for a while showing the EGR isnt working correctly, I pulled it apart and it seems it was somewhat sticky but has nuthing to do with the setup since its been there for a while prior to the generator. I havent coughed up the money for a new valve because it dosnt make a difference in the way the truck runs. I just switched to a higher output generator so im gona need to trim fuel to get the most out of it. Gotta rember that the ECU is programed to give the proper emmisions value. You could run it fine a little leaner but it runs it richer to get the cat to work properly. Hmm, maybe punching the cat out will tell the foward 2 02 sensors to pull fuel out?? Gona try other stuff first but its an idea. Im trying to avoid throwing any other codes because that might cause the ECU to get thrown into open loop, or that might be somthing to try also, open loop is the ECUs pre programed tune, it usauly goes into openloop under haevy load or certain codes being thrown. Might try disconecting the rear o2 sensors.

[twistedsymphony]

to get more reliable results you should be standardizing your measuring and monitoring process.

the most reliable way to measure fuel economy is this:
1. fill up your tank
2. reset your trip meter before you leave the pump
3. drive for a while
4. fill up your tank again
5. [trip mileage]/[fuel to fill tank] = MPG

if you want to make sure that it's perfectly accurate make sure your speedo is reading correctly, the speedo gets it's signal from the same place as the odo and trip meter so typically those are only as accurate as the speedo.

I'm not sure how it works on the VX but digital speed sensors often have an adjustment screw on the back of the gauge cluster, failing that Dakota Digital makes a unit for $80 that will let you adjust your speedo exactly. use a GPS to tune it, or if you know a LEO with radar equipment you can have them help.

On top of that you can get an OBDII scanner for ~$100 that will provide you with real time A/F ratios and Injector cycle times to let you know what you're engine is doing at all times.... if you've got a laptop you can probably get an even cheaper OBDII cable and record the results from a trip. Some more expensive OBDII units (~$200) can record the trip data to be dumped to a desktop computer later on.

This would make it VERY easy to test the results of your system. fill up, turn it on, set the laptop to record and do a 5 mile loop. Mark your mileage turn the system off, fill up again and do the same 5 mile loop. Did you see a difference? Do this while keeping with the speed limit and use land marks to start your braking distances... trying to keep as consistent as possible. Best bet is a highway loop where you're staying at a constant speed for extended periods of time.

Saying "I got X miles on my last tank" is rather ridiculous IMO... the fuel gauge unholy in-accurate and can fluctuate quite a bit depending on just the pitch of your car never mind temperature, pressure, humidity, etc. Similarly if you drove different places on one tank to the next, did you use your AC more this week or last week?... even the mixture from one gas station to the next or from one week to the next from the same station can effect your mileage by a couple MPG. Measuring your A/F and Injectors among other things will also show you if your engine is ACTUALLY running more rough or smoother (as opposed to your butt dyno), as well as show you how well it's running in any given RPM range. Depending on the data you get you might also be able to derive average HP and torque as well.

"test results" are only as reliable as the quality of the test :)

[MoonRaker]

Well, that sounds like a good way to make some adjustments but you have to worrie about long term fuel trims wich I monitor on my OBD2 scanner wich is real time, I can monitor the voltage comming from each of the 4 O2 sensors, the maf sensor. I havent loaded the programs that monitor each injector yet but id say that its not needed for what im trying to acomplish. My plan wich im going to do tommorow is disconnect the front 2 O2 sensors and maybe all 4. I want to force the truck into open loop wich will base the fuel maps on the maf.

[MoonRaker]

Ok, just went and pulled the plugs on the front O2 sensors. The OBD2 showes them at a voltage of .450 and the other .455 locked so no adjustment, before they showed in the .650 to .850 range verying. The rear sensors were still reading but ALOT leiner, in the .050 at idle and .3 under excel so thats working. Ow, forgot to mention im still bleeding air in through the Vac side of the throttlebody along with the hydro gismo. I stopped the leak and the rear 02s went to .350 at idle. It seemed I was bleeding to much air for open loop so the truck started stumbling, I adjusted the bleed till the idle was stable with the gismo running, forgot to turn it off to see what happens. When I got back from a ride the rear 02s were .010 to .005, and it was still running pretty good??? holly crap. I have a freshly filled tank, lets see if were gona see even more milage, might break 300 this time.

[MoonRaker]

Ok, twisted , tryed it your way. I mounted the trusty shop wideband. Filled the tank and clocked 50 miles, average speed 65 70, returned to the sceen of the same pump, filled 2.2 gallons. The wideband was between 16 and 19 to 1 air/fuel. So, thats around 23 to 24 MPG. that sure beats 16 to 20 that I was getting before. Ok, new idea that I talked to a very smart guy I now that worked at Pratt & Whitney as and engineer. He said to heat the gasoline to the point of vapor using the exaust manifold as a pre heater. He said when they tryed it they got almost 80 MPG on a V-8. Ok, it sounds dangerous to me but ill give it a try. Im thinking of a throttlbody settup. Put in a switch to shut off the port injection when the vapor system gets up to temp. :flame:

[Cobrajet]

He said to heat the gasoline to the point of vapor using the exaust manifold as a pre heater.My Cobra used to do that. We called it vapor lock. Tended to kill the engine. Not a good thing. Fuel pumps don't work well pushing vapor.

[MoonRaker]

The plan is to have a seprate fuel system tied into the stock one. Fuel wont be pumped as vapor. It tends to rise in pressure when vaporized anyway. We have a stand alone fuel injector system at the shop that can control 1 injector. The plan is to inject the fuel prior to a copper or stainless line that runs across the exaust manifold then through a nozzle pre throttlebody. No vapor lock that way.

[MoonRaker]

My new answer for the fuel costs :)

http://www.fireblades.org/forums/general-discussion/64921-cbr-929-custom-trike.html

[Ldub]

What happened with the hydrogen setup?

Also, what gains did you get with the water/methanol injection system you were experimenting with?

[MoonRaker]

What happened with the hydrogen setup?

Also, what gains did you get with the water/methanol injection system you were experimenting with?

The hydrogen settup is work in progress. Ive gotten to the point were I need to change the timming and have no way of doing so at this time. I hooked up a buddys f-150 with a generator and hes getting 100 to 150 more miles out of his tank. The water meth setup is on the back burner. I really dont have the time to play with it and do any real testing and tunning. Also the price for the methanol is more then gas, who woulda figured. Im looking at starting a corperation building trikes. Gotta go were the money is. Ive left the O2 sensors unplugged and the VX is getting much better and consistant milage buy running MAF only without any O2 readings. Id say that its due to the ethonal being mixed in gas. Ethonal causes your ECU to fatten up your mix due to the factory calibrations on the emmisions system. Did you now that most cars run fatter so theres more unburnt fuel going into your cat to make it light off easier and work better at burning off the hydrocarbons?