Problems with SC

[AlaskaVX]

Well the word on my SC is that the (in not too technical terms) holes where the injectors go are 3/100's too small. So either I need to get it machined or have Alpine send me a new one. I am talking with Phillip at Alpine trying to get this worked out. I believe Alpine should pay for any lost time which is like 6 hours now. I hope this gets resolved soon since I have been without my VX for a week now. My brother went into a ditch yesterday and popped 2 tires so thats another car we don't have. I only have enough money for a 9-hour install and belts/spark plugs/etc. so if Alpine doesn't pay then I'm screwed! Well I'll keep everyone updated on what happens.

later,
Alan :(

[Dallas4u]

I would agree that any manufacturing error needs to be fixed by the manufacturer... no doubt.

[IsuZOOM]

I would also agree that the extra shop time spent because of their mistake should be covered.

[paultvx]

While it sound logical to have Alpine pay for the extra shop hours... I'd say you'd be damn lucky to get even a new fuel rail out of them.

I wouldn't piss them off if I were you by making demands... for now. See if they'll fedex you a new part in exchange of the old (they can always have it machined correctly and resell.) All else fails (worst scenario)... you may just have to suck it up and take it to small claims court.

[AlaskaVX]

I'm really hoping it won't go that far. Alpine just told me that they will send me a new manifold in exchange for the old, but I haven't discussed the labor that was charged putting the defected manifold on.

[paultvx]

I seriously doubt they will go that far. Chances are they think they're doing you a favor by sending the new part. But it doesn't hurt to ask... I'd hold off the question until the new part is already in transit. That way you come out with your cup half full... at least.

[AlaskaVX]

I'm about to call them and say that they need to pay for next day air shipping for the manifold and all new gaskets since the ones on there have already been torqued down. And I'll tell them that they are paying for all hours that have been used on this defect. I know they are not going to like it but screw them! I will take them to court if this doesn't work the way I want it to! This is a bunch of BS! They told me that they would send me a new manifold "ground service" and if I wanted it sooner then I will have to pay. That isn't going to happen! I'm pissed now! It's war! I tried to be nice but now I am getting angry!

[Dallas4u]

Say! Isn't there a warranty on them there new models? Through all the jibba-jabba about this subject, I can't recall if anything was ever set straight about it.

If there IS a warranty, something's gotta be done! (Probably just the part and not the labor, though).

[AlaskaVX]

Yes it does have a warranty on defected parts, but don't you think if they had any kind of descent customer service that they should pay for what is their fault! I will carry this to the end, I talked to Phillip again and he said that he was close to the shipping deadline for the manifold so he couldn't really talk. I don't believe I am going to get new gaskets. Let this be known that if I have a bad gasket then I should be able to have Alpine repair it for free (at least in my eyes). I asked for the new gaskets and I believe they refused but aren't telling me. Anyway this is speculation I should shut up before I diss Alpine too hard. They seem to be working with me, but it also seems that I am getting screwed at the same time. If Alpine will fix this I will praise them for having great customer service, but if not I might just ruin their name on the internet!

PS I hope Alpine reads this!

[BaM*BaM]

Has anyone else experienced a similar problem? It's highly unlikely that a part that is machine made came out with a very different size on just your particular part... I would maybe get another quality mechanic to varify the problem.

[WyrreJ]

Did you buy it through Tone? I think he posted that he was going to be incommunicado for a while, but it might be worth seeing if you can get in contact with him to help smooth over any problems you are having with Alpine directly. He's certainly responsible for selling a goodly few SCs, so he may have some influence over their customer service. Or not.

[Hotsauce]

I did have to oil my injector O rings to get them into the holes. also, depending on the age and condition of your original rings they may have swelled up. Did anyone measure the hole size? How does it compare to the holes in the stock manifold. be Aware if using replacement O rings on the injectors that top and bottom ring are ever so slightly different size.

Are all the holes too small, or just 1 or 2? I run a machine shop, and when we finish a job the tools for that job get put in a box with the jigs, and become dedicated to that job/customer. Most shops work this way. It would be very unusual in most shops for the wrong reamer to get used for something like this, and if it did, likely that a whole bunch of pieces would get made the wrong size, not just 1.

John C.

[AlaskaVX]

All the holes are too small. The injector will fit in the hole without an o-ring and there is no play at all when its in there. With the o-ring there is no way. The shop showed me that when he put the injector in the stock manifold there was a lot of play and it fit nicely with the o-ring. It was very obvious that the holes were too small.

[Zu4two]

As I recall, those injectors fit quite tightly in the manifold holes. I also would question whether the top and bottom O rings got reversed. I wouldn't sweat the "used" intake gaskets. They're hard plastic and metal and don't deform until the engine gets nice and hot. I would question why the shop didn't follow the assembly procedures from Alpine, which has them installing the injectors and fuel rail on the manifold on the workbench, before it gets mounted on the engine.

Good luck! Your trials make my 14 hour installation look like a cake walk :)

[AlaskaVX]

The reason they didn't is because they thought that the o-rings were the problem and they were going to do all they could up until they HAD to put them in there. There is no "quite tightly", you wouldn't be able to wrap a small rubberband around it and stick it in, it's that small.

[Tone]

Wish you had called or emailed me with all your issues - the install guide talks about Scotch briting the injector holes on the manifold to allow the injectors to slip in - that and grease or vaseline. Yes, they are tight as there is a lip inside the hole that makes it difficult to get them in past but I dissagree with the shop's assertion that they are too small. A little emery cloth (or a dremel if they are careful) will allow them to slide right in.

I've installed many of the kits from different casting batches and they ALL have been tight but all worked without cutting an oring. I just finished a kit install in Hawaii in 6 hrs and they were tight but I was able to get the stock, used, bloated orings in with Scotchbrite, a little vaseline and patience. The one I just installed was made at the same time as yours and shipped the same day. If the shop needs to talk with me about it, please give me the number and I'll be happy to assist them - it really is a simple matter to resolve.

I'm not sure Alpine should have to cover what any decent shop should be able to resolve using a little brain power. And why post this and your other issues instead of trying to work it out directly with Alpine or myself FIRST? I answer my phone 24/7 even when on vacation and answer emails almost daily while out but have not heard anything directly from you.

[AlaskaVX]

I was talking with Alpine, they said to use the scotch brite, the shop just laughed and said "ya right, its way too much ". Isn't the injector supposed to be able to have a little play once its in there? From what Tone said it sounds like they should just jam it in there and that would have 0 play. They install many superchargers, mainly on Jeeps, and have not had a problem like this before. The shop does not want to try to dremel out the holes since if they screwed up its their fault and thats a lot of money to cover! I don't want leaking injectors so I believe that the shop is doing the right thing. My new manifold is supposed to arrive today, so we'll see what happens. Tone the injector fits in the hole WITHOUT an o-ring and has NO play. You know how big those o-rings are and there is just no way in hell they can just oil it up and slide them in.

Maybe a few hours of scotch brite might do it but don't you think it should be fabbed to work without doing that. I mean it says that it is fabbed to bolt on a stock motor and from what I see it definately is not.

[paultvx]

He's got a point... those puppies ought to pop right in. If he has to do additional machine work on his own... might as well have sent him a blank.

[Tone]

Well it appears Alpine has sent a new manifold with the holes slightly reamed out so the shop can more easily fit the injectors, which should be tighter than the stock fitment to prevent blowby. I've used Scotchbright, sandpaper or a dremel carefully on some that have been too tight - it is a difficult fit and knowledgeable mechanics should have no trouble. 3/100ths ain't that much...

Since the injectors should have been moved to the new manifold BEFORE installing the manifold on the engine, there would be no install charges to be responsible for - they should have stopped when they couldn't get the injectors to fit. The gaskets then would not have torqued down either although they are multi use gaskets.

[AlaskaVX]

Thanx for the quick reply, Well I guess I will have to talk to the shop about that then. Since I know sure as hell I am not paying for work that has to be undone! If the instructions said to do it first then it is definately the shops fault and they should eat the time.

TTYL,
Alan

[FeatherFoot]

I see they didn't listen to my suggestion to Scotchbrite the injector holes and include new o-rings in the kit. Before I was asked to leave, I was polishing the holes in the manifold and fuelrail so y'all didn't have to.

I don't think there is any of the original bunch still there.

Oh well.

John

[AlaskaVX]

So you made things work, and they got rid of you? :rolleyes: Now I see.... So what needed to be done to the fuel rail? and why? If they would have listened to you then they would have saved Alpine and I from this headache.

[Dallas4u]

John, are you still unable to talk about what has happened at Alpine???

[FeatherFoot]

In the manufacturing process, burrs are formed between surfaces. These burrs cut the O-rings if you are not real carefull at assembly.

On the kits I pre-assembled, I used an exacto blade to first cut the burr off then polished the holes for the injectors using a hand drill and green Scotchbrite.I think on some of them I even lubed the holes with Vaseline. I know I did on all of the ones I assembled and installed. To date no problems I've heard of.

No Adam, I'm not able to comment yet, litigation pending. When able I will share all with you all.

John

[AlaskaVX]

The shop recieved the new manifold and they got it put together up 'till the fuel rails where they ran into yet another problem. I guess one was fine but the other had something wrong :confused: They tried to explain it to me but I didn't really understand. It was something to do with a screw/bolt with a hole through the middle couldn't attatch to something else. I wish I could explain more but my knowledge of engines is very little.

[paultvx]

Sounds like you've got a shop that doesn't read instructions.

[AlaskaVX]

why do you say that?

[Joe_Black]

That bolt with a hole through it is a banjo bolt. Your fuel actually comes through that thing and they are very common (and inexpensive) parts available at most parts houses. Just in case your rocket scientists buggered it up. :rollg:

[AlaskaVX]

Thats exactly what they were talking about, I think they said the threads were off so it wouldn't attach to where the fuel was coming in from.

[AlaskaVX]

OK just called them up to check the status. They said "hold on" then I heard him tell them "rev it up!" Then "vroom vroooom" from the back. I am so happy right now! I get my VX back woooo hoooooo! KICK ASSS!
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :dance: :angel::thumbup: :jump: :cool!:

[Hotsauce]

On mine the fuel rails, the fuel crossover pipe, and all the banjo bolts and fittings came pre assembled. Didn't yours?

John C.

[AlaskaVX]

I honestly couldn't tell you, I didn't really look I just brought the box in.

[AlaskaVX]

OK just took it for the first test run! I noticed it definately had some more balls off the start, but its rush hour right now so I didn't get to play too much. The banjo blot I guess was at an angle and they adjusted that. And get this, its a good thing that we had the manifold replaced! It turns out that when they took the old one off they found masking tape inside! It appears that it was put on their for the powdercoat and never removed, I guess you couldn't really see it unless you tilted it to an almost level with your eyes view. So I am almost glad that I have had the problems I had. I guess Alpine needs to work on their QC. Anyway see ya'll later I'm going back out driving!

[Spike]

Great!

Hitting the track this weekend?

[newthings]

I found some confusion on what you get when you order the injector o-rings.
Item 'Gasket; Injector', part number 8-17113-400, quantity ONE, for about $14.00, delivers a bag with 16 o-rings. Eight fat and eight skinny. All about the same diameter.
St. Charles had a note indicating the part number bot only one o-ring. I will call and give Merlin an update tomorrow.
Alpine did, just this week, send me a new and improved cable bracket. I have not done the install yet to know the difference.

Roy

[FeatherFoot]

Thats funny, I only got 12 O-rings in my kits for the V-6.

The fat one goes on the top of the injector and into the fuelrail, the skinny one goes on the bottom and into the manifold.
always use lube when installing O-rings.

FF

[AlaskaVX]

Yes I will be hitting up the track this weekend. Man I hope I don't get any more tickets, but its sooo much fun speeding around town now! Its much quicker. One thing I noticed though, is it takes a little longer to start up. I will post times Monday, I am thinking it'll do around 14.4 but I will hope for a 13.9 :D I believe it was worth it and I think its just going to get faster as my computer adjusts. We'll see the times this weekend.

[Dallas4u]

Hey Alaska, did you take your VX to the track? I'm interested to hear how it went.

[AlaskaVX]

I was totally planning on it, but I was out fishing and trying to meet gruven at the bar, it got late, drove home, passed out, turned the alarm clock off in my sleep. But next weekend I will be out there for sure! No more king fishing for me, I got skunked this year. :mad: