**Patriotic Retirement**

[VCrossfan]

Dear Mr. President,

Patriotic retirement:

There are about 40 million people over 50 in the work force - Pay them
$1 million apiece severance with the following stipulations:

1. They retire immediately. Forty million job openings - Unemployment
fixed.

2. They buy NEW American cars. Forty million cars ordered - Auto
Industry fixed.

3. They either buy a house or pay off their mortgage - Housing Crisis
fixed.

It can't get any easier than that!

P. S. If more money is needed, have all members in Congress and their
constituents pay their taxes.

[Solitude]

Amen

[Osteomata]

OK, another wild hair idea, ease our economic/houing crisis, and an interestig take on immigration at the same time:

Free citizenship to anyone who buys a home in forclosure at market value, pending standard security checks.

- Os

[Gussie2000]

Vcrossfan for president :smack::smack:

[don moore]

wait till sept. lol i turn 50 then

[snowtrooper1966]

Simply.......
















Brilliant!
Best,

[Marlin]

Here is the problem with that idea, for the most part, the >50 age group are the only demographic left that is actually willing to do any work for their money!! If you pay them all off, nothing would ever get done again;)
That was my dad's response (cause he doesn't turn 50 till next year).

A better idea, we could solve the problem with the poor, give them all 1 million dollars each, then tax the piss out of them, and see how much they whine that it isn't fair that they are getting taxed more than anyone else. That would be irony.:smack:

[tomdietrying]

The irony is the super wealthy right now are getting taxed less per capita than you and I. The irony is the super wealthy can steal billions of dollars from thousands of people with now real consequences. The irony is hard work does pay off, but who you know pays off much better.
Peace.
Tom

[johnnyapollo]

The Fair Tax would level the playing field for everyone.

-- John

[Marlin]

The Fair Tax would level the playing field for everyone.

-- John

True, true, if everyone paid 12.5%, regardless if you make $6/hr or $1000, it would be fair.
As far as the wealthy being wealthy, you are right, there is not a person in the world worth 10 million dollars a year or anything ridiculous like that unless they own the business. But before the outrage against corporate personnel, lets look at our sports teams. Notice they have kept their mouths shut the whole time. They are being paid mostly by the lower/middle class America, kind of makes me wonder where our priorities are, yet no one complains about them.
As for hard work paying off, you are 100% correct, unfortunately, most Americans think they are owed something for being American. I did not drink,do drugs, knock up my girlfriend, skip school and so on and that is why I am successful. My wife lived at home and worked her way through college and got her bachelors in about 2.5 years. Hard work does pay off.
Voting your tax dollars into your own pocket is a bad idea. So is giving it to retards who already failed. Any company accepting government funding should be required to fire all staff in tenure more than 5 years.
And one more thing, the wealthy generally become wealthy for a reason...hard work, sacrifice and being smarter than those around them. Can't get wealthy and stay wealthy by being dumb, or lazy.

"A fool and his money are soon parted."

[tomdietrying]

The wealthy get wealthy for a reason. Yes, the wealthy who made the initial money. Let's talk about the offspring of the wealthy individual who doesn't work hard. There are a lot of people who fall into that catorgory. I can promise you they make more money than you and put together, and it's not because of their work ethic. Why do you think that is?

I know you worked hard to get where you are, but you seem angry at people who are poorer than you. You do realize there are hard working people who come from loving families who are going to stay poor. There is no moving up for some people. Is that called laziness or something else?

Peace.
Tom

[Marlin]

The wealthy get wealthy for a reason. Yes, the wealthy who made the initial money. Let's talk about the offspring of the wealthy individual who doesn't work hard. There are a lot of people who fall into that catorgory. I can promise you they make more money than you and put together, and it's not because of their work ethic. Why do you think that is?

I know you worked hard to get where you are, but you seem angry at people who are poorer than you. You do realize there are hard working people who come from loving families who are going to stay poor. There is no moving up for some people. Is that called laziness or something else?

Peace.
Tom

I seriously doubt that any significant percentage of the "wealthy" inherited their wealth. Matter of fact, I would venture that a huge majority of them have college degrees, and did not have children till they were at least 25. As I said, "A fool and his money are soon parted." Look at all the "poor" people who have won the lottery and file bankruptcy a few years later. Dumb.
As far as being angry at the poor, yes, for the most part I am. They voted for someone with no idea why, only cause of skin color and advertising, they had no idea what the issues were or who they even were, which the electoral college is supposed to prevent that problem.
Most of the poor are not willing to work hard!! The Mcds by my house is hiring, as well as most of the other fast food places, because no one will work there because they do not pay enough, yet we have record high unemployment rates!!! That makes me furious. I work over 70 hours a week, and I am fine. It will not kill someone to work two jobs, and God forbid...............weekends!!!!! Want to really blame someone, start at the unions. Fighting for people to get paid more than they deserve as unskilled workers for decades, and the consumer has to pay for it.(Enter failed American car industry)
Remember, there will always be poor people, tis the nature of the beast, and although I was not poor as a kid, we certainly were not rich, I got waivers to pay for after school activites based on grades and behavior, discount lunches and so on. As I said, I made tough choices, didn't do stupid *****, and voila, here I am, doin alright.
Everyone has that chance, and if you cannot give that chance to your child, then you have no business having children, having a child is not a right, it is a responsibility.

PS-Tom, I enjoy our bantering and look forward to meeting you at Moab. All the guys I work with (who also work 70 hours a week and weekends, feel the same way I do, so no good arguments to be had there) I already packed up your shocks too so I will not forget them!

[circmand]

Sure you have a few Bill Gates who invented something great but most of his wealth is in his own stock. Most of the wealthy inherited such as Trump and the Hiltons their grand parents were robber barons in the past an dhanded down their wealth sure the kids went to college and graduated after their were endowments and buildings paid for by their rich parents. At a tax rate of over 50% hard work and a job can keep you well off but not wealthy. Now with stocks and all being made worthless by corrupt people who do not only not go to prison but get billions in tax dollars to continue their corruption or at least their incompetence from the tax paying citizens (that are not the poor who do not pay taxes). It is the middle class paying all the bills.

28% Fed tax + 8% state tax + 7% sales tax + 2% city tax + 28% capital gains tax + property tax + school tax (of course some of these are only on doallars spent but add up to over 50% tax on all of the middle tax

[Osteomata]

I seriously doubt that any significant percentage of the "wealthy" inherited their wealth.
You are mistaken, this is pretty fundamental financial demographics: The overwhelming majority of the wealthy come from a welathy background. This is not to say that poor or middle class can not also rise to economic wealth, but it is enormously more likely when you start there, when you are given the benfit of the best education, connections, and a little starter loan from Mom and Dad.


Look at all the "poor" people who have won the lottery and file bankruptcy a few years later. Dumb. Yes, that is dumb, but it is also an anecdote, and anecdote is not evidence. Sounds like you are really looking for a reason to not like "the poor" as a whole.


As far as being angry at the poor, yes, for the most part I am.

Then you have serious issues, my friend.


They voted for someone with no idea why, only cause of skin color and advertising, they had no idea what the issues were or who they even were, which the electoral college is supposed to prevent that problem.
This is rather insulting, in that broad, massive generalization, paint everyone with on brush kinda of way.


Most of the poor are not willing to work hard!! .
Really insulting. You don't appear to know many poor, other than the ones presented on Fox.


Want to really blame someone, start at the unions. Fighting for people to get paid more than they deserve as unskilled workers for decades, and the consumer has to pay for it.(Enter failed American car industry).
While I can agree that unions have and will abuse the system and cause detriment to industries and endanger the ability of some industries to employ people who need jobs, I can also admit that without any sort of organized labor or collective bargaining, then corporate abuses, as frequently endorsed by successful rent-seeking legislation, has also been responsible for horrific abuses from the corporatist side as well. A balance is necessary, and simply crying "its all the unions fault" is incredibly simplisitic and one sided. The current auto industry crisis is hardly the responsibility of the unions, the marginal union rate increase to production costs is rather limited. The problem has more to do with a massive down turn in the overall economic environment, including singificantly tightend lending policies, along with legacy costs and questionable marketing strategies.


Remember, there will always be poor people,
And there will always be people who are angry at them and decice to blame them for a lot, apparently.


Everyone has that chance, and if you cannot give that chance to your child, then you have no business having children, having a child is not a right, it is a responsibility.
Ahh great, lets let the government decide child bearing rights.

- Os

[tomdietrying]

Marlin,
I look forward to meeting you too! I'm getting you a case of your favorite cervesa. What kind do you like?

I see you don't understand my point "who you know is better than what you know" We'll discuss it in camp.

Last quick point, you said "They voted for someone with no idea why, only cause of skin color and advertising" First, I was not aware being a black minority gave you an advantage in America. It couldn't be because he was the more intellegent canidate could it? Wasn't it MaCain who said....the economy wasn't his strong point? And if I'm not mistaking didn't he also say.........the economy is strong......right before it collased. Second, I'm taking a wild guess, but I'm guessing you voted for Mr. Bush twice.

We'll continue the discussion under the stars of Utah. BTW - I appreciate your service to our country.

Peace.
Tom

[pbkid]

Most of the poor are not willing to work hard!!

ya...i go to school from 9-5 every weekday and i work 6-10...oh and i work 10-7 on the weekends...

definately not willing to work hard!

[Gussie2000]

Godness !

Marlin,my friend,those are serious words you wrote there.

Being poor isn't a sin or neither a reason to 'BLAME' the poor for the economic crisis.

I can't neither share with you the facts that the poor doesn't willing to work harder,for example a co-worker got into an crash because a nurse who isn't neither a rich individual was heading home from her 2nd JOB & ended up wrecking his tahoe & her mazda cx9 because she were so tied cannot keep her eyes open.

There's a lot of people struggling hard to survive on the salary you say they don't deserve because they are unskilled & not willing to word harder,actually most of the comporations doesn't pay the right wages to their employees,but remember,without those unskilled workers there'll be no wealthy.

What if all unskilled workers in the US decide not to buy an american car they can afford any more ? will the CEO's hold a job to improve the manufacturer's sales ? i bid you no way.

And if your ask a a financial expert about improving workers salaries & wages he'l tell you : ! Man,that'll help the economy.....i mean, a lot !

Blaming the poor is the last thing i can think of,it just can't fit in my mind.

What'bout placing all the wealthy guys to work at the train's rail stations doing maintaince,mixing concrete to builtd building,or have them cleaning they own offices or what 'bout have them answering your questions when the phone line is not working & troubleshoot the lines,or prouning the threes at your neighbor before the branches became dangerous because of they weight.

The wealthy needs the poor to make $ & the poor needs the wealthy to own a $ as you,me & 90% of us does.

But when the poor stop spending as they usually do things gets bad,as how we going thru right now,nobody's spending,even the rich people.

I can imagine having donald trump doing the gardering at my backyard for few undeserved $$$$ on a hot summer day.

Unions are important part o the labor world,without it workers will be at corporarions's mercyless greed & abuse practices,but companies do have their business organizations & unions so why not the workers ?

Without unions many workers wouldn'tt have health insurance,gain a better salary or have such rights as sick days or probably retirement plans.

Personally i work for security services company as supervisor,must of the people believes that working in this field doesn't require a lot of "SKILLS" however if i didn't have antiterrorist trainning,customer service skills.didn't knew how to deal with life threatening situation such a providing CPR,how to deal when a building gets on fire & needs to address & evacuates 100's of people within that building,calling for FD & provide then fully report & conditions of the situation on timely while they on the way then i gues i don't deserve to own $ 16 an hour isn't ?

I'm not mad at you,marlin,i believe in freedom of speech & opinions,that's all about democracy & love to have this kind of learning chats,but you ceirtainly missing a piece of the puzzle.

[vt_maverick]

...So is giving it to retards who already failed. Any company accepting government funding should be required to fire all staff in tenure more than 5 years.


Did you guys hear that Rick Wagoner resigned? The initial report was that he was asked by the Obama administration to step down as a condition for receiving government bailout $$$.

IMHO, GM fell apart because (a) a growing percentage of Americans prefer import designs over domestic vehicles, (b) GM made little investment in future technologies until it was too late (selling too many Tahoes while Honda and Toyota were designed hybrids), and (c) so-called "legacy" costs, including retirement and health benefits, made it difficult for GM to price its vehicles competitively without dramatically decreasing profits (read "employee pricing" and "red tag" events).

Of those three reasons, I really think (a) is the biggest problem. Carlos Ghosn took over as CEO of Nissan when it was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2000, and said at the time that "there are no problems a car company can have that can't be solved by good cars." In the first three years of his tenure Nissan created or revamped the 350Z, Altima, Maxima, Murano, Quest, Titan, G35 Sedan/Coupe, M35/45, and FX35/45 (all under the oversight of the VX's chief designer btw), and slashed costs by making hard decisions on reorganizing its supply chain (decades long partnerships were broken to cut costs). Ghosn's management team targeted three years as the timeline to return to profitability, but actually made that target in 18 months. Perhaps most dramatic was the personal accountability that the management team assumed; before they were hired they all signed contracts that required them to resign and return all of their pay if the company wasn't turned around in three years. Come up with better designs, hire better people, and make difficult decisions better and I think GM could be okay.

As for the poor people discussion, my parents taught me to work hard and do the best that I could with what I was given (personally, financially, etc.) For my parents who couldn't make it into a good college, that meant working hard at blue collar jobs and struggling to make ends meet to this day. For me who did have the qualifications to go to a good college, that has meant working hard at much higher paying white collar jobs that afford me a more comfortable financial position. People can't be judged by their economic situation, only on the composition of their personal character and work ethic. In a perfect world those two would be tied together, but unfortunately life doesn't work that way.

[Marlin]

Marlin,
First, I was not aware being a black minority gave you an advantage in America. It couldn't be because he was the more intellegent canidate could it? Wasn't it MaCain who said....the economy wasn't his strong point? And if I'm not mistaking didn't he also say.........the economy is strong......right before it collased.


Are you kidding?! Have you ever heard of Affirmative Action?! Where you get extra "credit" for being a minority to give you an advantage over the majority!!!
Do you know how many scholarships there are for white males only? None, cause that would be racist and would result in a huge lawsuit.
There are banks in California that received stimulus money because they were "African American" banks not because they were in financial trouble, squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Anyway, your beloved Obama just said the same thing Mccain said a few months ago "Our economy is fundamentally sound". When Mccain said it, Obama threw a fit about how crazy he was, yet a few months in the office, and it is ok that he says it? BS.
As far as Mccain not knowing economy, you are right, good thing the president has to pick cabinet members to take care of that stuff and make recommendations on what to do. Obama is a great judge of character and expertise, seemings how several of his selections have stepped down due to scandals, fraud and so on.

Now, back to the economy. My dad is now part owner of a company, no degree, worked his *** off there for 20 years and they gave him the shares since he had become such an integral part and given so much to the business without being asked.. No union there....ever. They will close the doors before they let that happen. In order to keep good employees, they had to offer competitve salaries and incentives, which is why their company is still around while their competitors are bankrupt. The company with the best workers will win, and the only way to have the best workers is to offer the best incentives. No union needed, if you do not like your job or its benefits.........QUIT!!!!! Suck it up while you can, get some education, training or what not and work your way up. That is the right that every American has.
I think we are not on the same page about what is defined as poor. $16/hr is not even close to poor. Minimum wage is poor. That is why it is called the "minimum". I am the head of household, my wife has a degree, although she does not work out in town but rather works raising our 2 boys, so they will have a better chance at success. I am enlisted in the military, so you know I don't make squat, but we made wise decisions, waiting to have kids till we saved some money, and we knew we were gonna stay together. That would mean by what you guys have proposed, I am poor. We made sacrifices, and it is paying off now and I am living comfortably(hence my Vx). As far as a wealthy person not cleaning their own office, mowing their own lawns and so on, that is why they got educations, so they do not have to do those things. That is why when their peers were getting drunk in highschool, they were the "dorks" that were in band or Physics club. Their success came at a price.
Here is a tidbit I found from Oxford publication:

"The self-employed are the wealthy folks of America. The average net worth of a family where the head of a household works for someone else is $65,000. When it comes to the self-employed, the average net worth is $352,300.

Another interesting wealth statistic: all the wealth in America is concentrated among homeowners (two-thirds of Americans own their own homes). The difference is stunning. The average homeowner’s net worth is $171,700, while the average renter’s net worth is a measly $4,800.

Lastly, it turns out that education is valuable. The net worth where the family head didn’t graduate from high school is only $25,500. Meanwhile, the net worth where the family head has a college degree is $213,300. (Grad. school was not part of the survey.) An investment in a college education could provide a return greater than you could even expect in the stock market!
'The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.' You have heard it a million times. However, my guess is that you have never heard it from the mouth of the 'rich'. Instead, this echo has most likely bounced to your ear with its origins being an excuse. That is right...an excuse. Excuses are what many use to pacify their guilt of not accomplishing what they are capable of."

Almost all of our presidents were self made men. They were children in poor homes, raised by drunken parents or whatever, even Bill Clinton. Obama is the first president to never have had a real job, raised by his wealthy grand-parents, so as far as relating to the normal person, he is the perfect candidate, not the guy who worked his way up in the military from scratch.
I hope Obama does well, not for him, but for the nation, but I would not expect to see our current representatives around much longer. Ultimately, the president really has little power, the real power is in Congress/Senate, where all of the bills and decisions are made. They are the real problem, with all of their pet projects and ridiculous scandals and virtually no repercussions. I would not expect to see many of them make it through the next election. Well, time to get back to work...:rolleyes:

Oh, i forgot to mention, I don't watch Fox news, only CNN, so when I do see ridiculous stuff from the liberals, it must be true and not just conservative propaganda. So no more pointing fingers about misrepresented news stories. I also grew up in one of the largest union towns in the US around all the GM workers and steel workers, half my friend's parents didn't even graduate high school, yet they always had nice cars, houses, boats, oh, I forgot to mention, they were union factory workers. Highly skilled at pushing a button on a press, that could have easily been automated and save the company millions of dollars and probably prevented bankruptcy, but the union threw a fit, look where it got them today.

[nfpgasmask]

LOL, another thread I missed until it has properly ripened!

I just quickly browsed all the replies, and I think I kinda understand where Marlin is coming from but maybe the semantics are a little off.

I too have a similar resentment but it isn't a resentment of "poor" people. It is a resentment for damn near an entire nation of lazy slobs who think the world owes them something. I know SO MANY people who think that success and stability is something that you just get. My wife and I spent our 20s busting our butts and sacrificing A LOT of normally taken for granted conveniences (like cable TV, your own laundry room, 2 cars, TEVO, Blackberries, and countless other USELESS EXPENSES every other lower-middle class to poor class family has) to get where we are today. And now we have all these people whining about not having enough money but come to find out they have been living WAY over their means for WAY too long. They DESERVE to feel the bottom fall out. They do not deserve to be bailed out. The hard working people of this country should not have to help all the lazy SOBs out there who refuse to work at McDonalds.

I bet I could go out and find 50 Mexican immigrants today who would be willing to haul 150 pound bags of poop to feed their families. Try to find 50 22 year old American kids who would be willing to work that hard. THAT is the problem with this country.

Yes, there were the "baby boomers" and "x-generation" and the "me generation" and now we have the "spoiled rotten delusional generation".

:) Bart

[Marlin]

Godness !


What if all unskilled workers in the US decide not to buy an american car they can afford any more ? will the CEO's hold a job to improve the manufacturer's sales ? i bid you no way.

The wealthy needs the poor to make $ & the poor needs the wealthy to own a $ as you,me & 90% of us does.


Unions are important part o the labor world,without it workers will be at corporarions's mercyless greed & abuse practices,but companies do have their business organizations & unions so why not the workers ?



I am confused, it is the blue collar worker who spends all the money on products and makes the wealthy successful? So the corporations wouldn't make money if their employees were working for substandard income because they wouldn't be able to afford any of the products. A self controlling industry...huh, free enterprise, such a weird idea!!!. So you definitely do not need the union to fluff salaries. My father in law just retired from Ford in KC,Mo last year, he was a foreman there. They had problems with union folks not working and meeting quotas, and the employees said they were working as hard as they could. The management wanted to put in cameras at worksites just recording the work site/assembly line, not the whole scene, so personal privacy would be maintained to allow them to get rid of some the management to save money. That way, there wouldn't have to be someone watching over your shoulder in order for you to do your job, and the worker would then have proof that they were working their best. A win win for everyone?! You would think, save money on supervisors, no one over your shoulder, proof that you were doin your job....but the union said hell no!!! That wouldn't be fair. Could have been a good deal for all. At he Honda plant in Akron, most of their assembly line is automated and videotaped for quality assurance purposes, and they have no union, and when polled during the GM/Chrysler fiasco, their employees said they wanted nothing to do with a union, they were happy the way things were. My dad's company pays factory workers based on performance. They figured out the average parts per time. If you do better than average, you get paid more, less than average, you get paid less, and no, they do not adjust the average if everyone does better, it is a function over time for adjustments. An incentive to outperform your peers. Once agian, no union needed, and they go through very small amount of employee turnover, most employees have been there at least 5 years.

[Marlin]

I bet I could go out and find 50 Mexican immigrants today who would be willing to haul 150 pound bags of poop to feed their families. Try to find 50 22 year old American kids who would be willing to work that hard. THAT is the problem with this country.

:) Bart

My neighbors kid won't mow lawns in the summer. It's too hot, and 15 bucks isn't enough. His parents will give him money if he needs it. Takes me about 45 minutes to mow, edge and weed eat. Thats 20 bucks an hour, and he won't do it. That, folks, is our future, World of Warcraft, if there was lawnmowing in that, he would do it for 50 gold;)

[nfpgasmask]

My neighbors kid won't mow lawns in the summer. It's too hot, and 15 bucks isn't enough. His parents will give him money if he needs it. Takes me about 45 minutes to mow, edge and weed eat. Thats 20 bucks an hour, and he won't do it. That, folks, is our future, World of Warcraft, if there was lawnmowing in that, he would do it for 50 gold;)

Dude, you couldn't be righter. It's sooo sad. My younger brother (who turns 24 this year mind you) is a textbook WoW kid. I am honestly really quite worried about his health. He was a really handsom looking dude, until about 3 years ago. WoW claimed his body and mind (oh wait, and weed). He is now GROSSLY overweight, has NO COLLEGE education, and very little work experience. I hate to say it but he is the laziest person I know, and he is my brother. I would love to help him but I refuse to help those who do not help themselves first. At this point I am simply worried about him. If he keeps going the way he is going until 30, he is gonna be really sick. And this all stems from excessive parental guilt and continued spoiling and coddling. He has been handed everything on a silver platter since he was 12 years old. But now he is a grown man and their is no excuse. Sad, just sad. I hate seeing my family as part of this problem.

Bart

[pbkid]

Yes, there were the "baby boomers" and "x-generation" and the "me generation" and now we have the "spoiled rotten delusional generation".

:) Bart

huh, thats interesting...how come as people get older they always think the people younger than them are more stupid or treated differently then THEY were when they were children....maybe because america is full of hypocrits?

[Gussie2000]

One of the reasons i reject buying any american made car is due an experiance i had last year when my VX was at the shop because a little tapping,the dealer hand me a 2004 dodge stratus as a rental But what a unlikely surprise I came across with,a car buildt in the 21rst century had no dome light included in the vehicule's standart features,to me that is insulting & unacceptable,having in consideration that the car's brand new price tag that year was $ 17K,the dashboard & radio's design still from the earlier 90's & interior very cheappy looking.Yet stil my younger sis went to a toyota dealer looking at the very 2007 yaris around may month & if you asked me i answered yes,the little chep yaris priced for just 11K had dome light + WMA MP3 capable-full digital radio.American car manufactures not only needs to redesign their vehicule,but also the way the do business.

[nfpgasmask]

huh, thats interesting...how come as people get older they always think the people younger than them are more stupid or treated differently then THEY were when they were children....maybe because america is full of hypocrits?

Jack, I never said younger people were stupid. And obviously not EVERY SINGLE KID in America today is a spoiled brat that isn't willing to work. Hell, I know plenty of 35 year olds that are that way! I was just saying that there is a growing trend of entitlement in this country. Like I said, I'm sure there are plenty of kids out there today that being raised right, going to school, getting good jobs, etc.

What do you mean by treated differently? I don't really think kids are treated differently. However I do think they are exposed to a lot of different things today that may be shaping their points of view. I think TV and the media play a big part in this, and I definitely believe proper parenting has gone by the wayside in the last 20 years. Teenage kids are growing up on Rob & Big and Real Housewives and this is what they think life is about. Not busting tail and working hard. Sure, my grandfather said the same thing about the children of the 1980s, and you know, he was right. Things were changing, and changing for the worse. And things today are still changing, and still getting worse. :cool!:

Bart

[pbkid]

Dude, you couldn't be righter. It's sooo sad. My younger brother (who turns 24 this year mind you) is a textbook WoW kid. I am honestly really quite worried about his health. He was a really handsom looking dude, until about 3 years ago. WoW claimed his body and mind (oh wait, and weed). He is now GROSSLY overweight, has NO COLLEGE education, and very little work experience. I hate to say it but he is the laziest person I know, and he is my brother. I would love to help him but I refuse to help those who do not help themselves first. At this point I am simply worried about him. If he keeps going the way he is going until 30, he is gonna be really sick. And this all stems from excessive parental guilt and continued spoiling and coddling. He has been handed everything on a silver platter since he was 12 years old. But now he is a grown man and their is no excuse. Sad, just sad. I hate seeing my family as part of this problem.

Bart

this is what scares the crap outta me with my own generation...how many kids are absolutely addicted to these games that RUIN lives...its been proven to cause divorces and families to fall apart...and in this way there is some laziness in my generation...

however, bart, look at your generation (i think your in your 30's right?), and marlin im not sure how old you are, but if you were a child/teenager/college kid during the 70's...try to tell me that the generations that came out of the 70's were not completely *&#$ed...
i would much rather have a lazy generation that has to learn the hard way that they need to work than to have a generation who is forever ruined by drugs...
hmm, definately seems to be easier to criticize a younger generation once you have done your own stupid actions huh?

and no, im not saying that either of you did drugs and ruined your own future (which i assume neither of you did judging by how intelligent you gentlemen are), however, there are many from that generation that DID ruin their lives with drugs...

now look at my generation, yes their are some lazy people, but at the same time, we are the most technologically intelligent generation EVER, and that may be attributed to the 'laziness'....so dont generalize that ALL young people are lazy...
and at the same time, sometimes things that negative, turn out to be positive ;)

[Scott Harness]

Everybody is so touchy today! I thought everybody born after 1980 was in trouble.:eek: Everything has been dumbed-down. Most highschool grads can't do simple math or read above a 5th grade level.Cuts in education and zero attention span(from video games) are part of the problem.:bgwo:

[nfpgasmask]

this is what scares the crap outta me with my own generation...how many kids are absolutely addicted to these games that RUIN lives...its been proven to cause divorces and families to fall apart...and in this way there is some laziness in my generation...

however, bart, look at your generation (i think your in your 30's right?), and marlin im not sure how old you are, but if you were a child/teenager/college kid during the 70's...try to tell me that the generations that came out of the 70's were not completely *&#$ed...
i would much rather have a lazy generation that has to learn the hard way that they need to work than to have a generation who is forever ruined by drugs...
hmm, definately seems to be easier to criticize a younger generation once you have done your own stupid actions huh?

and no, im not saying that either of you did drugs and ruined your own future (which i assume neither of you did judging by how intelligent you gentlemen are), however, there are many from that generation that DID ruin their lives with drugs...

now look at my generation, yes their are some lazy people, but at the same time, we are the most technologically intelligent generation EVER, and that may be attributed to the 'laziness'....so dont generalize that ALL young people are lazy...
and at the same time, sometimes things that negative, turn out to be positive ;)

Yes, I am 33. I dunno, I think to generalize that kids growing up in the 70s were all druggies is just as bad. Sure, in high school and college I did *ahem* experiment a tad, but I never let that crap get the best of me. And after college was over I never looked back. Now, take a look at BOTH my brothers. One is 24 (as mentioned above) and the other is 31. You already heard the story about the 24 year old, and the 31 year old is only half better. His 20s were spent partying hard, and not building his future. And now, BAM, he realizes that life ISN'T a non-stop party, and he is paying for it now.

As always, you can't simply lump everyone into a certain stereo type. All I am saying is that there is a trend among younger generations that I see. And again, it isn't everyone, of course. Furthermore, while I do believe it is a growing trend among younger people, there are still LOADS of older people (late 20s, early 30s) that are just as bad.

Realistically speaking, most of what I am talking about has to do with the way that our family structure has changed over the last few decades. Both parents working, often divorced, etc. Kids are not raised today the same as they were 15 years ago. Sure, some parents strive to give their children that same childhood, but in most cases, it is simply not the same.

For example, when I was 8 years old, I got on my bike (no helmet either) and I was left to my own devices ALL DAY. I would ride out, COMPLETELY FREE, to do whatever I wanted. I might have had $5 in my pocket I earned by mowing the lawn and doing my chores. Maybe I could get some Big League Chew and a comic book that weekend. My parents NEVER worried about me, as long as I was home for dinner. Today, parents are UBER PARANOID about safety. Kids are constantly brought up with more fear and less independence. They are brought up by the TV and the XBOX. (what is more harmful? Growing up a couch potato with no real understanding of the world or the remote possibility of falling out of a tree and breaking an arm or worse, getting kidnapped?) Again Jack, this is not everyone out there, but you know what I am getting at.

I grew up with complete independence. Video games and TV were the BOTTOM of the barrel when it comes to entertainment. That is what I did when it was pouring rain. Otherwise I was out, exploring, catching snakes, falling in creeks, jumping my bike and climbing trees, and most importantly, having true freedom and gaining valuable life lessons that video games and MTV simply do not provide. Kids today are either too fat and lazy to do those things or they are simply forbidden to have that kind of freedom, which is almost worse and even more depressing. My youngest brother grew up on the couch playing Final Fantasy. He DID NOT have the same childhood I had, not even close.

Know what I am saying? Don't think I am saying YOU are a lazy, stupid, spoiled kid...cause I'm not!! ;)

Bart

[AREA 51]

Ok, first off, the 40 million people x $1 million each comes out to $40 TRILLION dollars.

That don't work.

Next, on the subject of union bashing, maybe we should abandon what unions gave lives for and go back to child labor, 16 or more hour work days, and work 6 or more days a week mandatory with zero benefits, no worker safety laws and live in the company town, in company housing that you will be charged for, and buy from the company store ending up with little or no savings. That is if they will hire you based on your ethnicity. Businesses routinely hired Pinkertons and other private security to beat and kill union organizers while police stood idly by. Now they have the police and national guard doing that job on occasion.

I hope nobody believes that businesses gave anything to unions out of the goodness of their heart. Everything is negotiated. A general way of putting it is that both parties give things up to reach a settlement. Now the Administration wants the UAW workers to give up wages that they negotiated while keeping businesses' side of the negotiations intact. NOT FAIR! And is it fair that UAW workers should reduce their standard of living to match that of a semi-literate former dung farmer, south of the mason-dixon line who THINKS he won the lottery because a foreign owned company is paying half of what he should be making?

The only reason non-union offer any benefits at all is because they are so scared of the employees having an EQUAL seat at the table, they match their benefits to what...? They usually match, but rarely exceed what the union would offer.

How is it that until the decline in unionism, early 70's, That one man could support a family without the wife or kids having to work? A lot of so-called "skilled workers" conveniently forget that they got their college education through union employed parents paying the bill. THE UNIONS OFFER A MAN OR WOMAN A DECENT STANDARD OF LIVING and EQUAL REPRESENTATION and PAY!!!. That is what it is about.

Now with the decline in unions, corporate greed dictates what benefits are cut or eliminated, as well as the threat of H1-B visa foreign workers competing for your job (at a lower wage, of course) and pay inequity between the sexes.

Another oversight in the blame game is that there is no major difference between a UNION and a "professional" ASSOCIATION . You know , like the American MEDICAL or BAR Association. Nobody is complaining about their rules preventing foreign lawers or doctors practicing in this country for less. You just have to go to their country to get the same proceedure and with the savings, you can take a nice vacation too. If any business could have a foreign worker do your job here and do it for less, they would do it in a heartbeat.

Over the last 20 to 30 years, unions and blue collar jobs have been torndown in general, by PRO-BUSINESS administrations. Look where that has got us now. The businesses said they had to move production overseas due to labor costs , but did they ever reduce prices after paying sweatshop and child labor pennies on the dollar? No, and now we have been tricked into lowering our standard of living in order to compete with the GLOBAL ECONOMY.


Why is it that for almost 20 years congress would not raise the minimum wage, even if just to match inflation, but they have no problem giving themselves raises AND cost of living increases? The businesses that own the politicians would not allow it. Even our politicians are so elitist that some of them, like McCain think the MIDDLE-CLASS is annual income up to "$5 MILLION". What a joke. Politicians should make no more annual income than the average of their constituency. Include insurance and pension too. That would bring them back to reality pretty quick.

What is the difference between a person who works for minimum wage or is at the poverty level and an inmate in a jail? Well, taxpayers spend about $60,000 dollars per inmate per year to support the inmate. Who's the sucker in this scenario?

Not all union workers "push buttons" all day long and when you see a union worker working outside in the nice weather and think "that's easy", just remember he's doing the same job when it's 20 degrees or colder with wind chill and or in other unfavorable weather or on the top deck of a high rise building.


Long story short, The businesses BUY (access to) Politicians who screw the rapidly vanishing , true middle class. Look how many politicians received big contributions from AIG and the other financials. Just like the politicians involved in the banking crisis of the 70's (like JOHN McCAIN, who got a slap on the wrist for influence peddling for the financial organizations. It's an eye opener, but as always businesses can afford to ..um
INFLUENCE politicians, can you as an individual afford the same?

Rant off.

[Marlin]

Everybody is so touchy today! I thought everybody born after 1980 was in trouble.:eek: Everything has been dumbed-down. Most highschool grads can't do simple math or read above a 5th grade level.Cuts in education and zero attention span(from video games) are part of the problem.:bgwo:

True true, I teach at the nuclear power school, when I came in, Physics and Algebra2/trig were minimums. Now, I have students who never got past earth science, and never took math past algebra. These kids are the top 10% of the nation on standardized tests!!!

[tom4bren]

Ever stop to think that the current financial mess is nothing more than a predicatable cyclic trend?

Sure, a lot of good points were made in this thread about cause & effect (although it did degenerate into a lot of generalizations that should have been left unsaid).

The consumer based economy had gotten so inflated that it HAD to deflate or burst. Cmon, does a city the size of Fredericksburg, VA really needs 3 super WalMarts, 1 Target & 2 super Targets, 9 McDonalds, 5 Burger Kings, 5 Wendys, 48 grocerie stores, 22 auto parts stores, 16 new car dealerships, ... ?

[tom4bren]

Sorry - I exagerated. We only have 2 super WalMarts & 1 regular.

[Moncha]

I must say, you make me proud!
It's been a long time since I have been able to witness an actual debate :argue: on this forum without the tendency to turn it into a tyrannical tirade. :_mecker:

My "kids" are growing up! :_crying:

[Marlin]

Ever stop to think that the current financial mess is nothing more than a predicatable cyclic trend?

Very good point as far as the trend, kind of like global warming, we are on our way out of an ice age, of course it's gonna get warmer...lol

"Sure, a lot of good points were made in this thread about cause & effect (although it did degenerate into a lot of generalizations that should have been left unsaid)."



As far as things that should not have been said, that's just crazy, our country is full of close mouthed whiners that are too scared to talk about anything because they might offend someone. Who cares, it is NOT against the law to offend others. No one is willing to say what they think, so we sit around waiting for someone to say it for us. I 100% enjoy these threads, almost as much as I enjoy talkin about the Vx!!!!! Freedom of speech is the most important freedom we have, and we are one of the last places in the world that have any remnant of that freedom, better exercise it, or it may go away...:smack:

[Marlin]

I must say, you make me proud!
It's been a long time since I have been able to witness an actual debate :argue: on this forum without the tendency to turn it into a tyrannical tirade. :_mecker:

My "kids" are growing up! :_crying:

Oh Scott, you sound like my dad....makes me laugh. My little brother and I go at it all the time (he is a social worker at an old folks home, so we often don't see eye to eye when it comes to politics)

[pbkid]

I 100% enjoy these threads, almost as much as I enjoy talkin about the Vx!!!!! Freedom of speech is the most important freedom we have, and we are one of the last places in the world that have any remnant of that freedom, better exercise it, or it may go away...:smack:

x2!!!!

for once...........agreed, fully..... ;)

[Jolly Roger VX'er]

I've worked jobs that are non-union as well as 2 jobs that were union and believe either can succeed if run properly; and feel that alot of the positives found in todays non-union jobs can be traced back to the past when unions fought for those rights.

I don't like how everyone is focused on what unionized work forces are struggling and drawing a generalization from them and applying it to everybody. Sure the car companies that have unions are ready to go under. But, the blame can be spread around in alot of directions. Chrysler is headed up by Bob Nardelli, he used to be MY plant manager...what a useless corporate dictator. Home Depot was dumb enough to hire him as CEO and he about run them into the ground...now Chrysler does the ultimate, dumb move and hires him to run a car company!

If you want to talk about a unionized company that is doing well...look at John Deere.

I personally work for GE. We are union...and even though the GE stock has fell into the toilet...it can all be traced back to GE Capital. It is the black hole of the whole corporation; as even though our unionized manufacturing division was making record profits building locomotives for sale worldwide...The Capital division was busy making bad loans and morgages which in the end sucked away our profits (black hole analogy).

Never felt I was owed anything by anybody. Worked hard for what I've managed to get in my life; only buying what I can afford...I bought a $50k house 9 years ago with a 15yr. morgage with payments that are equivalent to what I paid for rent when living in apartments even though the bank tried diligently to get me to go for a $120k house. Financed and paid for the VX. Saved up & paid outright for a new diesel kubota tractor and suzuki V-Strom motorcycle. Wanted a new sports car...could've gotten a new challenger, camaro or mustang with my credit rating...settled for an '07 Mustang GT (Premium pkg.) coupe w/ 5k miles on odometer for $19k.

Bottom line, having worked minimum waged jobs & factory union jobs...will do whatever is necessary to survive in this world. If this job goes under...I'll most likely look at being a truck driver as my next profession. Change can be good!

P.S.- I tried getting a job as an autoworker 20 years ago. I never did hear what they paid hourly...I just loved cars and thought building them for a living would be FUN. I even tried getting a job at Harley Davidson...came real close...never did hear what they paid...thought building Harley's would be FUN! Notice a pattern here???

[nocturnalVX]

Next, on the subject of union bashing, maybe we should abandon what unions gave lives for and go back to child labor, 16 or more hour work days, and work 6 or more days a week mandatory with zero benefits, no worker safety laws and live in the company town, in company housing that you will be charged for, and buy from the company store ending up with little or no savings. That is if they will hire you based on your ethnicity. Businesses routinely hired Pinkertons and other private security to beat and kill union organizers while police stood idly by. Now they have the police and national guard doing that job on occasion.
I hope nobody believes that businesses gave anything to unions out of the goodness of their heart. Everything is negotiated. A general way of putting it is that both parties give things up to reach a settlement. Now the Administration wants the UAW workers to give up wages that they negotiated while keeping businesses' side of the negotiations intact. NOT FAIR! And is it fair that UAW workers should reduce their standard of living to match that of a semi-literate former dung farmer, south of the mason-dixon line who THINKS he won the lottery because a foreign owned company is paying half of what he should be making?
How is it that until the decline in unionism, early 70's, That one man could support a family without the wife or kids having to work? A lot of so-called "skilled workers" conveniently forget that they got their college education through union employed parents paying the bill. THE UNIONS OFFER A MAN OR WOMAN A DECENT STANDARD OF LIVING and EQUAL REPRESENTATION and PAY!!!. That is what it is about.

Very well spoken! Some things have not changed that much... :rolleyes:

I work (a union job) in a city that forces it's employees to live within its borders. Home prices (in decent areas of the city) are much higher than better homes in the suburbs. We have the highest sales tax in the nation, income tax is going up 50%, and benefits are going down. Employees are forced to take unpaid days off (while politicians get raises) because the government can't figure out that you should not spend more than you take in. Not only are jobs being given away to private firms that staff people (quite a few that can not even speak english) making a fraction of the money the people they are replacing did, but some positions are simply not filled or elliminated. Luckily, I work where most of these kind of things can't take place because of safety issues. I can not afford to work for free. What would it be like if the unions could not negotiate?

Politicians (Democrats or Republicans) and rich CEOs don't care about the little guys as long as they are raking in the $$$. The city, state, country, or business is in the red and failing? No worries... take it from the little guys!

I am single with no kids, but (even though I am paid well) I have very little financial cushion. My house is worth $60,000 LESS than it did 3 years ago when I bought it. I can not immagine trying to raise a family of 5 like my parents did. There is no way! Do it on one income so that a loving parent can be watching over the kids... ha! So, TV & video games will teach the little ones while mom and dad are working 2 or more jobs just to get by. That is... until the boss finds out it can be done cheaper in China/Mexico/India/wherever, and he can double HIS profit. Then they are screwed...

[Bulldoggie]

I'm 55 today, so I thought I'd share my experience.

Unions are not perfect, but before unions, children labored in the factories, alongside their fathers.
Not only were there no health or retirement packages for workers, they owed for their needs from the employers company store!
Not much different than being owned. (Slaves?)
Unions became worthless, after a President intervened in an AIR traffic controllers strike.
He threw out the union, and BANNED all workers from seeking work in their chosen and highly skilled professions.
the National Labor Relations Board has since changed the rules for unions ability to strike, mandating that they can not interfere with a Businesses rite to carry-on business.

As some of you know, I used to work on Tug boats. (union labor)
Tug boats typically have staterooms for many hands, but through negotiations, crew members were eliminated in favor of more pay, since a deckhand is the cook, engineer, deckhand and barge pilot ect...
A modern crew is One capt. and one deckhand.
The work could not be done with less, and could not be much harder to perform.

We had one strike, management tried to crew One boat, with four "deckhands", and could only move one barge in a full day.
The strike was over in two days.

Twelve years later, a few months after signing a new contract, they sold the boats from under us. I was brought back to the dock for a crew change, only to be met by security guards. My co-workers showing up for their shifts, were met at the gate with paychecks made out to the minute.
Their attorneys poured over the contract, and found the language forbidding the sale or termination of the contract, Had no penalty for doing it spelled out.
I found myself along with everyone I worked with, competing for the lowest few junior positions available, with the few other tug companies.
Only working part-time and being bumped by the 20 year old with no experience, hired days before.

All because another Division involved themselves,with a NON-union contractor, and was sued for poor quality control on a freeway job in Calif.
Yes, my Company built the Glen Jackson bridge over the Columbia river, and dredged the mountain out of the Columbia river after Mt Saint Helens.


Soap Box #2

Even if you hate Michel Moore, You MUST see his film "Sicko".

Why I'm not wealthy today;

90% health coverage, and my share of one summer of Chemo-therapy.

$50k not counting lost wages.

Three broken ribs, punctured lung, crushed talus bone (ankle), dislocated right elbow (sling for 12 months), Angioplasty (2 stents) Diabetes, meds.
Too many back spasms, Due mostly to poor care. Back surgery;
All with expensive cost at a time of little, to no income!

I have never drawn unemployment wages.
I returned to work always with less than recommended healing time.

Add to that a mentally ill ex-wife. a special needs child (not biologically mine) and poor credit, (ex-wife again) and NO family to fall on.
And it becomes impossible to "get ahead"
and at 55, my healthiest years are behind me.

Please don't try to tell me the economy is Union Labor's fault, or American workers are lazy.

But go ahead and complain about the poor non-union quality work that you still pay the same amount for. (or more?)

:_crying: over

I promised I would not get political on this site, but it is not Labors/unions fault.

And yes, I do know I could have retire well.

Best of health to you all :thumbup:

[nocturnalVX]

Sure the car companies that have unions are ready to go under. But, the blame can be spread around in alot of directions. Chrysler is headed up by Bob Nardelli, he used to be MY plant manager...what a useless corporate dictator. Home Depot was dumb enough to hire him as CEO and he about run them into the ground...now Chysler does the ultimate, dumb move and hires him to run a car company!

P.S.- I tried getting a job as an autoworker 20 years ago. I never did hear what they paid hourly...I just loved cars and thought building them for a living would be FUN. I even tried getting a job at Harley Davidson...came real close...never did hear what they paid...thought building Harley's would be FUN! Notice a pattern here???

Perfect example!
FACT:
From 1973-1983, Harley-Davidson’s market share went from 78% to 23% as Japanese manufacturers flooded the market with high quality, low priced bikes.

Harley was going to fail because of serious mis-management and the fact that they had a piss-poor product. The company turned around because they not only started to make a better bike, but people that cared about the company took control. Then President Ronald Reagan imposed a tariff on import bikes over 700cc. That gave Harley a little help, and we didn't have to give them billions to take spa vacations. By 1987, Harley was profitable again, and asked the government to end the tariff... yes, THEY stopped it. Since then Harley has opened more factories, dealers, and created thousands of jobs here in America.

The U.S. (made in Canada/Mexico/Germany/South Korean/Australia) :_wtf: auto industry (for the most part) refuses to up their game, but will take money from the taxpayers. Hey! How about that new Pontiac Solstice coupe with the targa top... that you have to leave at home because there is no place to store it in the car. :_wtf: The 1972 Fiat X1/9 even solved THAT mystery. Hope it never rains on your road trip...
:_brickwal

[tom4bren]

"As far as things that should not have been said, that's just crazy"

'People who generalize are stupid'

Izzat better?:)

[Marlin]

"As far as things that should not have been said, that's just crazy"

'People who generalize are stupid'

Izzat better?:)

Nicely done, a bit of a personal attack, but clever just the same. As far as the generalizations or stereotypes, by definition, they are mostly true. Do not even assume for a second that I believe that all union workers are lazy, or that all poor people are poor because of their own actions, there are always exceptions. That is why it's "general". But the same as the electoral college works, 51% of a state votes democrat, then all of the electoral votes for that state go to the Democrat candidate, generalizing that whole state as Democrat. (Just an example) Insurance companies do it everyday, hence young males pay far more in auto insurance than the same age female, because generally, a young male is more likely to do something dumb, probably to show off for a girl:). Therefore their insurance is higher. I have never been in an accident that was deemed my fault, but I still paid the higher rate when I was young. Any company that sells any product, generalizes and stereotypes their marketing in order to maximize their sales. So you must be right, 'People who generalize are stupid', therefore, anyone who is in designing, sales, engineering, investing, insurance and so on must be stupid.... which I believe, if I am not mistaken, in some way, is ultimately everyone, except the unemployed, making them the smartest!!!!

[tom4bren]

"So you must be right, 'People who generalize are stupid', therefore, anyone who is in designing, sales, engineering, investing, insurance and so on must be stupid"

My point Xactly

My subliminal point was that the comment itself was a generalization which inferred a diminutive to my own cognizant psychi.

'Nuff big words for today - I have a headache.

BTW, I wasn't trying to attack you personally (sorry if I came across that way). Generalizations happen to be one of my pet peeves - that is what I was attacking.

[Marlin]

"So you must be right, 'People who generalize are stupid', therefore, anyone who is in designing, sales, engineering, investing, insurance and so on must be stupid"

My point Xactly

My subliminal point was that the comment itself was a generalization which inferred a diminutive to my own cognizant psychi.

'Nuff big words for today - I have a headache.

I got the original joke, hence the "very clever" comment
For real LOLLOLOLOLOL. Thanks, you made my day, just got home from work, and I went in yesterday at 0600. Tough to make someone smile after 30 hours at work.

[tom4bren]

BTW,

Wifey wants to visit Charleston either this summer or next to do some ghost tours. I haven't been in that area in years so would like to visit again too. I'll let you know if/when it happens.

Tom

[Marlin]

BTW,

Wifey wants to visit Charleston either this summer or next to do some ghost tours. I haven't been in that area in years so would like to visit again too. I'll let you know if/when it happens.

Tom

That would be cool, do you have a DOD ID? There is a really nice campground that has cottages right here in Charleston for military/dod only. Its on a nice a pretty big lake, Lake Moultry(SP?). Let me know for sure...after Moab of course.

[tom4bren]

Yup on the DOD ID. Army Civ for the past 25 years (dang, that makes me sound OLD).

I'm guessing that it'll prolly be next summer since we are doing the family trip to Niagra this July.

"Its on a nice a pretty big lake, Lake Moultry(SP?)."

Awsome - I could bring the SeaDoos.

[Gussie2000]

Ever stop to think that the current financial mess is nothing more than a predicatable cyclic trend?

Sure, a lot of good points were made in this thread about cause & effect (although it did degenerate into a lot of generalizations that should have been left unsaid).

The consumer based economy had gotten so inflated that it HAD to deflate or burst. Cmon, does a city the size of Fredericksburg, VA really needs 3 super WalMarts, 1 Target & 2 super Targets, 9 McDonalds, 5 Burger Kings, 5 Wendys, 48 grocerie stores, 22 auto parts stores, 16 new car dealerships, ... ?

You certainly right about this cycle trend,you see the big corporations in their effort & greed quest to gain more in the market kept "expanding" their portfolio to states & cities where in certain situation they doesn't even need them there,so instead of saving those billions of dollars of capital funds they sort off that spending more will help its stocks @ wall street grow more & faster,sometimes it works,sometimes not & that's what happened to GM opening plants nationwide instead of reducing operation costs on a timely manner,getting rid of brands that doesn't sell any often as before such as oldsmobile,saturn,volvo & saab instead they decide to keep spending just to keep ranked as the biggest manufacturer in the US.Now GM got to reduce its cots because they @ the point lossing not only the gained rank,but almost to disappear

[VCrossfan]

"You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom.
What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The Government cannot give to anybody anything that the Government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is surely the end of any nation's future."

Abraham Lincoln (not sure if Abe wrote it or Adrian Pierce Rogers)

[HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE]

We are all commie pinko bastards!
Why...
We all drive VX's ...Those were made by the enemy right...
Japs!
We can save this great nation by turning in our faggity looking Vx's and getting something made in the good ol USA!
A nice big lincoln Navigator..it's about as good on gas as a VX but you can put much bigger woofers in the back!
Now that's American!

This country is hit the skids from on thing and one thing only...8 years of having Bush in office. All the crap we are recovering from was from his poor and ineffective management. 911 was on his watch, he had CIA documentation prior to the attack but hey, was way more important to be reading "my pet goat" to schoolkids that day. Katrina happened on his watch, the mortgage meltdown....That was on Bush's watch also.

Republican's love to shift the blame, but the fact is the blame falls squarely on their shoulders...you voted Bush...Good for you brainiac! Now live with the results!
If you think Obama is gonna turn 8 years of governmental retatrdation around in 3 months I have a pork project to sell you.

I also blame the American dream of owning a house for our current financial problems.
So many mortgage brokers selling no money down loans for houses to people who bought into the lie that property is always a good investment.
How many of us were sold on the idea of home ownership since childhood!
Do you really blame the masses of people for buying into it? The notion of a white picket fence and a backyard is powerfully seductive. It is the American Dream..... But like most dreams..you have to be asleep to believe in it.
I also think Americans are at fault for having an attitude of we are #1!
Are we? We have slipped behind other countries in education, infant mortality,economics, and most of all, overall happiness of our citizens.
We are the only country without a healthcare system that includes everyone,
We are recovering from a president who favored religion over science!
Now some of the world has surpassed us in the medical sciences because we were sandbagged by that retard Bush.
I know some of you are gonna be quick with the 'love it or leave it" BS.
Well I do love the USA...I have lived in Hawaii and California and have traveled through most of the lower 48 and for my money this is one of the most beautiful and wonderful countries on the planet. My beef is with the old school who thinks that this country has to be an empire....that we have to be the world police....All the cash we spent blowing up and rebuilding Iraq could have been better spent here.
Here is to better times!

[Scott Harness]

We are all commie pinko bastards!
Why...
We all drive VX's ...Those were made by the enemy right...
Japs!
We can save this great nation by turning in our faggity looking Vx's and getting something made in the good ol USA!
A nice big lincoln Navigator..it's about as good on gas as a VX but you can put much bigger woofers in the back!
Now that's American!

This country is hit the skids from on thing and one thing only...8 years of having Bush in office. All the crap we are recovering from was from his poor and ineffective management. 911 was on his watch, he had CIA documentation prior to the attack but hey, was way more important to be reading "my pet goat" to schoolkids that day. Katrina happened on his watch, the mortgage meltdown....That was on Bush's watch also.

Republican's love to shift the blame, but the fact is the blame falls squarely on their shoulders...you voted Bush...Good for you brainiac! Now live with the results!
If you think Obama is gonna turn 8 years of governmental retatrdation around in 3 months I have a pork project to sell you.

I also blame the American dream of owning a house for our current financial problems.
So many mortgage brokers selling no money down loans for houses to people who bought into the lie that property is always a good investment.
How many of us were sold on the idea of home ownership since childhood!
Do you really blame the masses of people for buying into it? The notion of a white picket fence and a backyard is powerfully seductive. It is the American Dream..... But like most dreams..you have to be asleep to believe in it.
I also think Americans are at fault for having an attitude of we are #1!
Are we? We have slipped behind other countries in education, infant mortality,economics, and most of all, overall happiness of our citizens.
We are the only country without a healthcare system that includes everyone,
We are recovering from a president who favored religion over science!
Now some of the world has surpassed us in the medical sciences because we were sandbagged by that retard Bush.
I know some of you are gonna be quick with the 'love it or leave it" BS.
Well I do love the USA...I have lived in Hawaii and California and have traveled through most of the lower 48 and for my money this is one of the most beautiful and wonderful countries on the planet. My beef is with the old school who thinks that this country has to be an empire....that we have to be the world police....All the cash we spent blowing up and rebuilding Iraq could have been better spent here.
Here is to better times!

Bravo! except for the "faggity VX" part:bwgy: Yea, most people only think their awake!!

[pbkid]

We all drive VX's ...Those were made by the enemy right...
Japs!
We can save this great nation by turning in our faggity looking Vx's and getting something made in the good ol USA!
A nice big lincoln Navigator..it's about as good on gas as a VX but you can put much bigger woofers in the back!
Now that's American!


actually.....2 things.....
1- isuzu is partly made by GM....
2- i would never buy an american made vehicle unless it was a diesel truck. any gas motor made by american is complete CRAP. go ahead and buy one, then be surprised when my motor ticks over 300k miles (my integra is at 270k and still going strong) and yours is blown at 75-100k (like my first VX motor)

i HATE american motors, i think they are horribly built...they just dont last...yes they do produce amazing power, but they never last...(unless diesel)

[nfpgasmask]

Bravo! except for the "faggity VX" part:bwgy: Yea, most people only think their awake!!

I think (I hope) HWJ was being sarcastic when he said that. ;)

Ahhh, good times....

:D Bart

[Marlin]

Bravo! except for the "faggity VX" part:bwgy: Yea, most people only think their awake!!

Damn, I had wasabi blocked, then someone had to go and quote him...as I have been warned, he just does this to spin everyone up, probably a Republican senator laughin his *** off in his office...

[don moore]

Lmao......

[HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE]

Damn, I had wasabi blocked, then someone had to go and quote him...as I have been warned, he just does this to spin everyone up, probably a Republican senator laughin his *** off in his office...

I find it funny how some pointy nosed fish can say whatever non sensical right wing conservative BS they can quote from Rush Limbaugh and feel like that does not stir the pot...but I put down my thoughts and Im a 60's era rabblerouser! If I was a republican senator , i'd be busy spending my time trying to make up reasons why Obama's recovery plan won't work to make it look like my GOP had a clue....

[JHarris1385]

Hello wasabi.

[Marlin]

I find it funny how some pointy nosed fish can say whatever non sensical right wing conservative BS they can quote from Rush Limbaugh and feel like that does not stir the pot...but I put down my thoughts and Im a 60's era rabblerouser! If I was a republican senator , i'd be busy spending my time trying to make up reasons why Obama's recovery plan won't work to make it look like my GOP had a clue....

Decent retort, especially the pointy nosed fish part, can't fish for them much longer, turns out they have feelings and may be the cure to global warming and also are secretly storing the answer to our economy that is crashing due to the popped housing bubble created during the clinton administration that demanded houses for everyone regardless of financial stability!!! That was all on Fox news;) I am gonna fish for Marlin regardless...:smack:

[HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE]

Hello wasabi.

Hey dude!

[VXR]

i'd be busy spending my time trying to make up reasons why Obama's recovery plan won't work to make it look like my GOP had a clue....

So you are saying it will work?:confused:?

[nfpgasmask]

Hello wasabi.


Hey dude!

:laughing: I just love this place.

:) Bart

[Marlin]

:laughing: I just love this place.

:) Bart

Ahhhh, I can't wait to meet you guys at Moab. The Expedition forum is boring, bunch of old guys that just talk about how crappy their MPG are in their Expeditions, if only they knew my Vx gets worse mpg than my expedition...

[HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE]

So you are saying it will work?:confused:?

I think so...

"Black guys are used to cleaning up white guys messes"

[pbkid]

Ahhhh, I can't wait to meet you guys at Moab. The Expedition forum is boring, bunch of old guys that just talk about how crappy their MPG are in their Expeditions, if only they knew my Vx gets worse mpg than my expedition...

same with the subaru forums....all they do is talk about how ricey every car on the road is....

including mercedes slk mclaren's :confused:

[circmand]

I find it funny how some pointy nosed fish can say whatever non sensical right wing conservative BS they can quote from Rush Limbaugh and feel like that does not stir the pot...but I put down my thoughts and Im a 60's era rabblerouser! If I was a republican senator , i'd be busy spending my time trying to make up reasons why Obama's recovery plan won't work to make it look like my GOP had a clue....


But Obama is doing the same things Bush did only worse. He is picking his Democrat flunkies (who pay no taxes) He is spending wastefully tripling the deficit if his plans go through. Bailing out big bussiness on the backs of the middle class, letting his rich friends and donors at banks and AIG take millions in bonus and only asking for it back when we raise hell. The only reason Bush did not criticize Obama when he was asked is because Obama is doing exactly what Bush would have been doing.

[Marlin]

But Obama is doing the same things Bush did only worse. He is picking his Democrat flunkies (who pay no taxes) He is spending wastefully tripling the deficit if his plans go through. Bailing out big bussiness on the backs of the middle class, letting his rich friends and donors at banks and AIG take millions in bonus and only asking for it back when we raise hell. The only reason Bush did not criticize Obama when he was asked is because Obama is doing exactly what Bush would have been doing.

I will defend Obama on one thing, for the most part, he is doing everything he said he was going to do, increase our deficit, encourage abortion, give money to those who didn't earn it, release the terrorists stored in Gitmo, raise taxes, and so on. At least he didn't lie too much so far, I respect that................in some weird, self hating kind of way.

[HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE]

But Obama is doing the same things Bush did only worse. He is picking his Democrat flunkies (who pay no taxes) He is spending wastefully tripling the deficit if his plans go through. Bailing out big bussiness on the backs of the middle class, letting his rich friends and donors at banks and AIG take millions in bonus and only asking for it back when we raise hell. The only reason Bush did not criticize Obama when he was asked is because Obama is doing exactly what Bush would have been doing.

Yes and no..
I'm sure you are aware of the term "It takes money to make money"..
Well It does, Obama is having to bail out these big banks and industries to save American jobs. Do I agree with it...no. I think if your business fails from bad management and bad decisions ...oh well too bad GM, too bad AIG, Too bad Citibank...That's the free market...The strong survive...ect, ect...
The problem is that those companies are not just high powered CEO'S and suits.Those companies are the financial lifeblood of millions of american families.So it's in our best interest on the short term to keep them afloat rather than have another few million people collecting unemployment.
The "New Deal" brought us out of this countries first great depression,that was just as big for it's time than this stimulus package is now. Let's face it , we could use an investment in our countries infastructure ...Does anyone remember that bridge that collapsed in St.Paul a few years back? A lot of good can be done with that money to boost our roads and tunnels and bridges.
If you look at history, this country has had it's best economic growth during
democratic rule. Republicans talk the talk but can turn a surplus into a deficit as fast as you can say "George W".
Just imagine if GWB was handed the country as in bad a shape as Obama received it...Where would we be now?

[circmand]

Yes and no..
I'm sure you are aware of the term "It takes money to make money"..

Obama is not making money he is writing IOUs to pay for everything

Well It does, Obama is having to bail out these big banks and industries to save American jobs. Do I agree with it...no. I think if your business fails from bad management and bad decisions ...oh well too bad GM, too bad AIG, Too bad Citibank...That's the free market...The strong survive...ect, ect...

Agreed

The problem is that those companies are not just high powered CEO'S and suits.Those companies are the financial lifeblood of millions of american families.So it's in our best interest on the short term to keep them afloat rather than have another few million people collecting unemployment.

Save the company yes fire the suits that caused the problem not keep them hired give them millions in bonuses and pretend you knew nothing about it

The "New Deal" brought us out of this countries first great depression,that was just as big for it's time than this stimulus package is now.

New Deal caused the problem to continue it did not solve it. When you build a bridge you are creating a temporary job. When the bridge is built everyone is let go.

Let's face it , we could use an investment in our countries infastructure ...Does anyone remember that bridge that collapsed in St.Paul a few years back?

Yes from an incorrect brace being used.


If you look at history, this country has had it's best economic growth during
democratic rule.

The moments of best growth were wars and sure mostly started by Democrats but I think the reasoning is not sound

Republicans talk the talk but can turn a surplus into a deficit as fast as you can say "George W".

If you think it started with Bush then you ignore the so called surplus Clinton claimed were all pie in the sky projections based on the dotcom area not bursting. If that is the case Obama is responsible for everything since he took office. You cant blame Bush from day and excuse Clintons legacy and then excuse BO because he inherited it.


Just imagine if GWB was handed the country as in bad a shape as Obama received it...Where would we be now?

You mean bloated budgets, terrorists running amuk Clinton had Osama handed to him and he let him go. He also bombed the Chinese Embasy in Afghanistan that is truly Carteresq in incompetance. Clinton inherited a great set up and ran it into the ground.

[HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE]

Originally Posted by HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE
Yes and no..
I'm sure you are aware of the term "It takes money to make money"..

Obama is not making money he is writing IOUs to pay for everything

(Obama is saving jobs, those jobs generate money,Google the Kensian theory of economics)

Well It does, Obama is having to bail out these big banks and industries to save American jobs. Do I agree with it...no. I think if your business fails from bad management and bad decisions ...oh well too bad GM, too bad AIG, Too bad Citibank...That's the free market...The strong survive...ect, ect...

Agreed (cool)

The problem is that those companies are not just high powered CEO'S and suits.Those companies are the financial lifeblood of millions of american families.So it's in our best interest on the short term to keep them afloat rather than have another few million people collecting unemployment.

Save the company yes fire the suits that caused the problem not keep them hired give them millions in bonuses and pretend you knew nothing about it
( It was Senator Jack Kemp (R) who put that provision in the stimlus package)
The "New Deal" brought us out of this countries first great depression,that was just as big for it's time than this stimulus package is now.

New Deal caused the problem to continue it did not solve it. When you build a bridge you are creating a temporary job. When the bridge is built everyone is let go.
(no, you build another bridge)

Let's face it , we could use an investment in our countries infastructure ...Does anyone remember that bridge that collapsed in St.Paul a few years back?

Yes from an incorrect brace being used.
(on a 40 year old bridge)


If you look at history, this country has had it's best economic growth during
democratic rule.

The moments of best growth were wars and sure mostly started by Democrats but I think the reasoning is not sound
( Democrats starting wars? really?)

Republicans talk the talk but can turn a surplus into a deficit as fast as you can say "George W".

If you think it started with Bush then you ignore the so called surplus Clinton claimed were all pie in the sky projections based on the dotcom area not bursting. If that is the case Obama is responsible for everything since he took office. You cant blame Bush from day and excuse Clintons legacy and then excuse BO because he inherited it.
(Clinton came in with a deficit from Bush senior, Big Bush, George H W, whatever you wanna call him...All I can tell you is between me and my friends, we all did better when he was in office, money was flowing like BS out of a republican...OOPs..)


Just imagine if GWB was handed the country as in bad a shape as Obama received it...Where would we be now?

[Gussie2000]

actually.....2 things.....
1- isuzu is partly made by GM....
2- i would never buy an american made vehicle unless it was a diesel truck. any gas motor made by american is complete CRAP. go ahead and buy one, then be surprised when my motor ticks over 300k miles (my integra is at 270k and still going strong) and yours is blown at 75-100k (like my first VX motor)

i HATE american motors, i think they are horribly built...they just dont last...yes they do produce amazing power, but they never last...(unless diesel)

Amen !

[Gussie2000]

The facts here guys is that GB was a fraud since he "won" the 2000 elections.

Every body knows GB never won that election & yet stil we just seat our a.... at the coutch & look at the TV just accepting whatever few guys in a small office in florida decide whoever they wanted go to the white house.

There's a true saying : when things begins on the wrong side it never ends good side & that's what exactly happened with the unfamous GB,every body knew but don't accept that he was just a clown on a $ 3000 suit saying whatever MR Cheney told him to say.

Recesion started in 2006,not in 2007 as how many people believe when big corporarions begin to merge ( AT&t/Cingular) (North forth bank/capital one) (fleet national bank/north forth bank) & so many others.but every body were to bussy asleep dreaming the american dream.

[jwatk1ns]

Watch this video. This man has incredible courage to tell it like it is. , this is the direction we are going (thanks too Bill BushOma, Barney Frank and company)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94lW6Y4tBXs

[Gussie2000]

Watch this video. This man has incredible courage to tell it like it is. , this is the direction we are going (thanks too Bill BushOma, Barney Frank and company)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94lW6Y4tBXs

That's what i called an state-of-the-art speech. AAA+

[VXR]

The "New Deal" brought us out of this countries first great depression

Common misconception:rolleyes:

WWII brought us out. You would be amazed how quickly a draft can cure unemployment...

[don moore]

i love this new USSA......

[tomdietrying]

This may be the reason why we are in the situation we are in.

Here is a glimpse of how two people think. Two men were asked how they thought history would see them.


Respondent #1 – “Fellow citizen, we cannot escape history, we of this Congress and Administration will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No personal significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another of us. The fiery trail though which we pass, will light us down, in honor or dishonor, to the latest generation.”



Respondent #2 – “History. We won’t know. We’ll all be dead.”







The two respondents are George W. Bush and Abraham Lincoln. Here’s my question to you. Which man said which statement?



I’ll bet you a million dollars you got it right.



Send this to your friends and win a million dollars too!



Peace.
Tom

[Marlin]

Once you have the million dollars, I have a friend in Nigeria that is actually a prince and needs some money, could be a great investment, I heard we are sending some as part of the stimulus(partially quoted from SNL).

[HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE]

Actually...
We have been sending billions to Iraq and all we have gotten back from that is about 4500 flag draped caskets...not a very good return on our investment.

[Marlin]

Actually...
We have been sending billions to Iraq and all we have gotten back from that is about 4500 flag draped caskets...not a very good return on our investment.

Really? The common person in Iraq would completely disagree...but you wouldn't understand cause you live in sunny Southern California, and preach from your laptop without ever sacrificing anything(unless you really are that retired military Senator hidin out in your office:bgwb:).
As far as the money goes, you cleverly forgot to mention the billions in [B]FOREIGN[B] aid that Obama pledged in addition to what they already got that is going to places like Egypt, who conveniently vote against the US in every UN vote. Good thing we need to give away more money to non-americans beyond the ones that actually showed an effort to get here, even it was illegally.

[HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE]

Really? The common person in Iraq would completely disagree...but you wouldn't understand cause you live in sunny Southern California, and preach from your laptop without ever sacrificing anything(unless you really are that retired military Senator hidin out in your office:bgwb:).
As far as the money goes, you cleverly forgot to mention the billions in [B]FOREIGN[B] aid that Obama pledged in addition to what they already got that is going to places like Egypt, who conveniently vote against the US in every UN vote. Good thing we need to give away more money to non-americans beyond the ones that actually showed an effort to get here, even it was illegally.

Ya got me!
I for one couldn't give a §hit about the citizens of Iraq! they will be pointing our own guns at us the minute we leave. If they hated Saddam so bad, they should have ousted him themselves! At that point we could have joined in. Iraq was all about W and his small penis.He could not bare the thought that saddam threatened to kill his dad! I'm sure his friends in Saudi Arabia ( the country that did attack us on 911) told Bush that Saddam made them nervous...and we all know that Bush was in their back pocket as well.
I have said it before, the billions of dollars, some never even accounted for, could have been best spent here...where it was made and where it would have done the most good...can we really afford to build schools in Iraq when our schools are falling apart? Halliburton may say yes but I say no...
I pay taxes too...that's my sacrifice...So I get pissed when our money goes out to nation build for all the wrong reasons....We installed the shaw in Iran...do you recall how well that went?
Here to throwing good money after bad on a country of muslims who will never have our back!

[tomdietrying]

Marlin,
How many common folk died over there because we went in because of WMD? Did you ask them that question? I believe the figure is about 650,000men, women and children. On top of that, how many lives have been affected because of those deaths. Remember, Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

You cannot dispute the facts about Iraq and sound intellegent. I've praised you for doing a fantstic job carring out your mission as a soldier. You did what a soldier is supposed to do. I don't know maybe it's your way of coping with having to come home and some great men did not. If that's the case, I apologize for my words. But to sugar coat what we did over there is frankly a lie and unamerican. I'm not living the lie anymore and I will not support the lie any longer.

Peace.
Tom

p.s.
You never told me what kind of beer you drink.

[HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE]

Marlin,
How many common folk died over there because we went in because of WMD? Did you ask them that question? I believe the figure is about 650,000men, women and children. On top of that, how many lives have been affected because of those deaths. Remember, Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

You cannot dispute the facts about Iraq and sound intellegent. I've praised you for doing a fantstic job carring out your mission as a soldier. You did what a soldier is supposed to do. I don't know maybe it's your way of coping with having to come home and some great men did not. If that's the case, I apologize for my words. But to sugar coat what we did over there is frankly a lie and unamerican. I'm not living the lie anymore and I will not support the lie any longer.

Peace.
Tom

p.s.
You never told me what kind of beer you drink.


Oh, great warrior, hmm? Wars not make one great....
Master Yoda

[Marlin]

Marlin,
How many common folk died over there because we went in because of WMD? Did you ask them that question? I believe the figure is about 650,000men, women and children. On top of that, how many lives have been affected because of those deaths. Remember, Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

You cannot dispute the facts about Iraq and sound intellegent. I've praised you for doing a fantstic job carring out your mission as a soldier. You did what a soldier is supposed to do. I don't know maybe it's your way of coping with having to come home and some great men did not. If that's the case, I apologize for my words. But to sugar coat what we did over there is frankly a lie and unamerican. I'm not living the lie anymore and I will not support the lie any longer.

Peace.
Tom

p.s.
You never told me what kind of beer you drink.

I am not so naive to believe WMDs had anything to do with it. A military base in the middle of the Gulf makes much more sense so that we are not entirely dependent on any one Middle Eastern nation as an ally. Same reason we own Hawaii, Guam, Wake Island and the bases in Japan as well as South Korea and so on, in which there are thousands of US military stationed, but we don't bitch about that cause its been so long. Call it imperialism, I am ok with that. Thats what it takes to be the most powerful nation in the world.

I appreciate your appreciation, (not sure if that makes much sense), but always remember, we are a 100% volunteer military force, so no sugar coating required, I would expect a similar response from a cop or fire fighter, risking our life is part of our job and we are all well aware of it. We do it to protect EVERYONE in America, even those who fight so hard to destroy it and undermine everything that our forefathers fought for, but that is their right. I believe that as a society, we are beginning to lose touch on what it means to be an American, we were not founded by peace loving hippies, or people who believed life should be fair, that is called socialism. We were founded by people who buster their *** to build a life for themselves with no help from anyone else, and they were willing to die and/or kill for what they created.
If you do anything, please, do not forget that. I agree with Wusabi on that point, *F* the rest of them, they are on their own, but to think we have done no good in Iraq is insulting to everyone.

I am not sure 650K is accurate, but imagine the millions that must have died before we got there at the hands of that psycho murderer Hussein while working on his genocide. Maybe we shouldn't have gotten involved in WWII either, but Kurds, Jews, eh, they weren't Americans...leave them to the tyrants.
PS- I like Sierra Nevada...as much as I hate SoCal, I love that beer, and its too expensive here, if it doesn't support a NASCAR, its considered an import here in the South.

I am done ranting about this, none of us will ever change the other's minds, but man, is it fun to try, better than tip toeing around trying to not offend anyone, that is just gay.

[Osteomata]

Really? The common person in Iraq would completely disagree...but you wouldn't understand cause you live in sunny Southern California, and preach from your laptop without ever sacrificing anything(unless you really are that retired military Senator hidin out in your office:bgwb:).
As far as the money goes, you cleverly forgot to mention the billions in [B]FOREIGN[B] aid that Obama pledged in addition to what they already got that is going to places like Egypt, who conveniently vote against the US in every UN vote. Good thing we need to give away more money to non-americans beyond the ones that actually showed an effort to get here, even it was illegally.

Well I agree with his statement, and I have served as long as you have, or longer.
- Os

[Osteomata]

I am not so naive to believe WMDs had anything to do with it. A military base in the middle of the Gulf makes much more sense so that we are not entirely dependent on any one Middle Eastern nation as an ally. Same reason we own Hawaii, Guam, Wake Island and the bases in Japan as well as South Korea and so on, in which there are thousands of US military stationed, but we don't bitch about that cause its been so long. Call it imperialism, I am ok with that. Thats what it takes to be the most powerful nation in the world.


I am not sure 650K is accurate, but imagine the millions that must have died before we got there at the hands of that psycho murderer Hussein while working on his genocide. Maybe we shouldn't have gotten involved in WWII either, but Kurds, Jews, eh, they weren't Americans...leave them to the tyrants. .

Well at least you cop to being a neo-colonial imperialist. But the real insult is comparing the WWII to our ridiculous misbegotten adventure in Iraq.

- Os

[Gussie2000]

Well at least you cop to being a neo-colonial imperialist. But the real insult is comparing the WWII to our ridiculous misbegotten adventure in Iraq.

- Os

And counting .............:cool:

[Osteomata]

And while Im all fired up, the 650K Iraqi casualty figure is indeed controversial. The Lancet study that sites that number did not restrict itself to known deaths caused by war related violence, but also included demographic based estimates that include mortality rates associated with war-related conditions such as drought, famine, disease, lack of access to health services etc. Hard core confirmable deaths related to violence might be less. But there are also studies that suggest the figure is over a million.

The Kurdish genecide in Iraq, while I may not think it comparable, is indeed horrible. If you are suggesting that such a genecide is/was a legitimate justification for OIF and the follow on occupation, I can accept that. Nothing you have said in this thread would lead me to believe that is your primary, or even important consideration, but if you say so, so be it. But using this logic I must assume that you also believed that we should have unilaterally invaded Rwanda to prevent that tragedy, and should be in the Sudan now. Or is the humanitarian justification nothing more than a convenient post-fact rationalization?

- Os

[Gussie2000]

The facts about iraq is that GB & commitee use 911 to launch a war agains the arab world because of israel,you guys knows that,the 911 was the perfect excuse to do so.

Is a fact that israel use the US to protect them,even though we all know that what israel has done agains the palestine people is close toa holocaust.

Just because hitler & his nazis reich did kill millions of inocent jews doesn't mean that israel has the right to kill inocent palestine people & remember that hilter didn't just kill jews,he also killed gays,black people,arab people & any race that didn't had "PURE" arian blue blood running thru their blood stream.

The real meaning of liberty & democracy is let others live & let them find their path to it,we as citizens living in this country don't allow others to address us how to run our way of live & if we want to be considered a country with good people who believe & have faith in freedom then we must start proving that by respecting others opinion just as how we do right here with each others.
It's shamefull that we keep yieling "We the people believe in FREEDOM" & keep forcing other countries to do what ever is convinience to us.

[pbkid]

can we really afford to build schools in Iraq when our schools are falling apart?

thats my biggest issue with 'the war'....why are we spending every last penny on other countries while our own falls apart??

[pbkid]

I would expect a similar response from a cop or fire fighter, risking our life is part of our job and we are all well aware of it. We do it to protect EVERYONE in America, even those who fight so hard to destroy it and undermine everything that our forefathers fought for, but that is their right.


amen brother!!

im a criminal justice major and i hate being in college...everyone i know talks about how much they hate police and how they think that we would be better off if they would just leave them alone...

then i ask how they would feel when their sister/best friend is being raped...and so they call 911....huh, suddenly they love the police...

or their friend gets jumped, cops see it happening and break it up before the person gets hospitalized...now suddenly they are thankful for police...

pisses me off!

[technocoy]

I've been reading this thread and while I don't usually like to get into the politics threads, I felt I had to put in my two cents with this one.

The way people in our government have twisted this to be a matter of democracy and humanitarianism after all the follies that have taken place really pisses me off. I have two family members and one best friend in the middle east right now. As much as I have pride in them for their choice to serve, the idea that they could die in this farce we keep pimping as a benefit for us or the world in general really pisses me off to no end.

To point fingers and call people liberals or hippies based on agreement/disagreement over this war is complete herd mentality and quite absurd.

All of us LEGAL American people live, work, die, serve and pay a LOT of friggin taxes. We pay the salaries of all the people who led us into this on completely false and fabricated pretenses. Period. This war will wind up costing us trillions of dollars, thousands of loved ones, and much of our reputation as the defenders of liberty and freedom. This is about strategic motives, a personal quack vendetta, corporate greed (in the form of no-bid contracts and private military) and commerce.

You know what it's gotten us so far? About 5000 more dead loved ones on top of the nearly 3500 lost on 9/11 and a whole bunch more brainwashed extremists and recent converts chomping at the bit to kill Americans. Not to mention the disdain we've come to bear for essentially saying we don't give a rats *** what everyone else in the world thinks, we're doing it anyway.

If humanitarianism, democracy, liberty, human rights, love, peace, people, or tyrants had anything to do with this we would have been in the congo and Darfur WAY before this crap ever happened. The ironic thing about that are so many of those people DO love the United States and what it stands for, are Catholic/Christian, and would ALSO make a good base of operations for point jumps into the middle east. Why didn't we go there? There were no economic, political, or natural resource reasons to do so. Interesting how that works.

Let's see. That's just first in my mind. There's also, Tibet, North Korea, Iran and much of South America that would have been good places to start.

North Korea HAS weapons of mass destruction. Iran more than likely HAS biological weapons and is very close to either obtaining or creating their own nuclear weapon.

If we had gone to war in ANY one of those places with a truly thought out, through and through strategy, and been given one of the reasons (and proved beforehand) stated above as catalyst, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me.

Iraq was masterfully used and so well played on the feelings and rage of the American public over our loss that no one even questioned it at the time.

We went into Afghanistan for all of 30 friggin minutes before the last administration saw their window to do what they did. It was a perfect storm of public outrage at muslims, terrorism (parlayed onto saddam hussein) and fear of an even greater, more awful attack (with weapons of mass destruction, I mean, come on, who wouldn't fear that).

We for the most part abandoned Afghanistan AGAIN (which by the way is pretty much the entire reason that so many in the middle east hate us in the first place. Ever since we pumped up their hopes in the 80's, supplied them with weapons to fight a back-seat war with the Russians and then abandoned them all after the war and the warlords and taliban took over), took our "fight on terrorism" into Iraq, and conveniently, in so many sheep-*** people's minds somehow made Osama Bin Laden, Afghanistan and Iraq and Saddam all one and the same.

Look through the last administration's cabinet, partnerships and advisors and see how many you can find were somehow benefitting from this war. If it's not 60-70 percent of the closest and most powerful confidants to the president, you either aren't looking hard enough or you just don't want to see the truth.

You are completely blind and fooling yourself if you think for one second there was any single bit of the ideas that America was founded on behind this giant fleece of a war. We were all played, and every single one of us, from the most staunch republican to the most marxist liberal should be mad as hell. FURIOUS!

"I believe that as a society, we are beginning to lose touch on what it means to be an American, we were not founded by peace loving hippies, or people who believed life should be fair, that is called socialism. We were founded by people who buster their *** to build a life for themselves with no help from anyone else, and they were willing to die and/or kill for what they created."

You might want to go pick up a history book that wasn't written in the Land of Dixie.

This country WAS found many people who by your standards "hippies" Go look up Quaker religion, also, look up why the first pilgrims came here in the first place. You'll also find that many of our founding fathers were tradesmen and masons, many of them not religious at all. Quite a few of them were inventors and men of science. They founded this country on the belief that there should be peace and liberty for all people within her borders. That those who should find themselves persecuted (by the church ironically) should find the freedom and safety to practice their beliefs here without a cast eye. That we may not always agree, but that there would be a set of laws that would govern instead of religion. That when that peace or liberty should be threatened that we all have the right to bear arms and fight for it. Not to go out into the world and make war for out own agenda, but rather to protect others and offer them the means of democracy as we have found it.

That's not to say that so many of those founders weren't religious, just that having been persecuted themselves, they KNEW that religion is not always of a clear mind and should not enter into the equation in the governance of law.

Sounds an awful lot like "hippies" to me.

Course, Jesus, by modern standards would also be a tree-hugging, bum-***, liberal hippy. If most of us saw him on the street we'd probably tell him to get a job.

As far as I go, I think we went from the tenants of capitalism fueled by the idea of lifting anyone willing to do a hard days work to straight up greed and the willingness to sell out anyone and everything in the name of one more dollar in the corporate coffers. I think we too often don't stand up for what's right, but for what's comfortable, convenient and profitable. That we too often worry about what's going on outside our borders instead of what's going on inside them. That we have sold our morals, stopped walking in the other guys shoes, and have ditched all semblance of honor, dignity and respect for our fellow man and neighbors. Most of the most giving, hard working, trustworthy and dignified people I have known have been least well to do. I believe that as American's we owe it to the rest of the world and to ourselves to set examples of liberty, prosperity, compassion and respect. Even when in disagreement we should be able to take a view from the other side. we need to get out more and meet more people. Different people, and often times, people that don't have the same views as us. It only makes us richer as a people. I think anytime this ideal is challenged, we should meet with with strong disagreement and subtle, strong willed diplomacy. When this ideal is threatened, it should be met with methods of making clear that we will not be put into the position of compromising those beliefs. When it is attacked we meet it with swift, intelligent, strategic and unrelenting force.

Being reasonable, thoughtful and restrained is not the same as bending over and pulling down your pants.

As far as the topic of the post, I do wish there were a clear and easy path forward with regards to the economy and the recent troubles we see. Unfortunately that's not the case, if it were, we wouldn't be in the mess in the first place. I say give the man a fair shake, he's been in office all of three months. I don't want to see less rights, bigger government and more debt anymore than the next guy, but sometimes the gotta burn the brush to save the trees, and if you think that 600 dollar "refund" you got last year was somehow making the last 8 years any better, you might wanna take another look at the big picture.

We've tried it the other way, let's give these guys a chance too, and if that doesn't work, let's vote them ALL out next time around. I think the status quo has gone on far too long. I do feel that the man himself is trying to do things more to the middle but is essentially being screwed by not only his opponents but his own party. Like it or not. All those people on capitol hill are the same. They all have the perks, the cushy job and the power to make things happen the way THEY want them too. I mean, isn't it a giant wad of guey spit in you face that they manage to vote themselves a raise every single year including this year and the last three while we all struggle and the minimum hasn't been raised in eons?

Cheers,
technocoy

[tomdietrying]

Technocoy, you speak the truth.
Peace.
Tom

[VXR]

I am not so naive to believe WMDs had anything to do with it. A military base in the middle of the Gulf makes much more sense so that we are not entirely dependent on any one Middle Eastern nation as an ally. Same reason we own Hawaii, Guam, Wake Island and the bases in Japan as well as South Korea and so on, in which there are thousands of US military stationed, but we don't bitch about that cause its been so long. Call it imperialism, I am ok with that. Thats what it takes to be the most powerful nation in the world

Well said I don't think many people realize this...

[Marlin]

A lot of good points Technocoy, well written as well.

[circmand]

And while Im all fired up, the 650K Iraqi casualty figure is indeed controversial. The Lancet study that sites that number did not restrict itself to known deaths caused by war related violence, but also included demographic based estimates that include mortality rates associated with war-related conditions such as drought, famine, disease, lack of access to health services etc. Hard core confirmable deaths related to violence might be less. But there are also studies that suggest the figure is over a million. - Os

Are taking into account the bodies in mass graves killed by Saddam but found since the war started plus the many killed in suicide bombings. I do not like the war but the many people in Iraq who had relatives killed and tortured must appreciate our sacrifice. I would like any Dove to please explain why they always complain about the injustices of the world scream "think of the children" then all they want to do is talk about it to the butchers doing it sing Kum Bay Ah and then actually complain when someone does something that makes a difference.

[Gussie2000]

I've been reading this thread and while I don't usually like to get into the politics threads, I felt I had to put in my two cents with this one.

The way people in our government have twisted this to be a matter of democracy and humanitarianism after all the follies that have. taken place really pisses me off. I have two family members and one best friend in the middle east right now. As much as I have pride in them for their choice to serve, the idea that they could die in this farce we keep pimping as a benefit for us or the world in general really pisses me off to no end.

To point fingers and call people liberals or hippies based on agreement/disagreement over this war is complete herd mentality and quite absurd.

All of us LEGAL American people live, work, die, serve and pay a LOT of friggin taxes. We pay the salaries of all the people who led us into this on completely false and fabricated pretenses. Period. This war will wind up costing us trillions of dollars, thousands of loved ones, and much of our reputation as the defenders of liberty and freedom. This is about strategic motives, a personal quack vendetta, corporate greed (in the form of no-bid contracts and private military) and commerce.

You know what it's gotten us so far? About 5000 more dead loved ones on top of the nearly 3500 lost on 9/11 and a whole bunch more brainwashed extremists and recent converts chomping at the bit to kill Americans. Not to mention the disdain we've come to bear for essentially saying we don't give a rats *** what everyone else in the world thinks, we're doing it anyway.

If humanitarianism, democracy, liberty, human rights, love, peace, people, or tyrants had anything to do with this we would have been in the congo and Darfur WAY before this crap ever happened. The ironic thing about that are so many of those people DO love the United States and what it stands for, are Catholic/Christian, and would ALSO make a good base of operations for point jumps into the middle east. Why didn't we go there? There were no economic, political, or natural resource reasons to do so. Interesting how that works.

Let's see. That's just first in my mind. There's also, Tibet, North Korea, Iran and much of South America that would have been good places to start.

North Korea HAS weapons of mass destruction. Iran more than likely HAS biological weapons and is very close to either obtaining or creating their own nuclear weapon.

If we had gone to war in ANY one of those places with a truly thought out, through and through strategy, and been given one of the reasons (and proved beforehand) stated above as catalyst, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me.

Iraq was masterfully used and so well played on the feelings and rage of the American public over our loss that no one even questioned it at the time.

We went into Afghanistan for all of 30 friggin minutes before the last administration saw their window to do what they did. It was a perfect storm of public outrage at muslims, terrorism (parlayed onto saddam hussein) and fear of an even greater, more awful attack (with weapons of mass destruction, I mean, come on, who wouldn't fear that).

We for the most part abandoned Afghanistan AGAIN (which by the way is pretty much the entire reason that so many in the middle east hate us in the first place. Ever since we pumped up their hopes in the 80's, supplied them with weapons to fight a back-seat war with the Russians and then abandoned them all after the war and the warlords and taliban took over), took our "fight on terrorism" into Iraq, and conveniently, in so many sheep-*** people's minds somehow made Osama Bin Laden, Afghanistan and Iraq and Saddam all one and the same.

Look through the last administration's cabinet, partnerships and advisors and see how many you can find were somehow benefitting from this war. If it's not 60-70 percent of the closest and most powerful confidants to the president, you either aren't looking hard enough or you just don't want to see the truth.

You are completely blind and fooling yourself if you think for one second there was any single bit of the ideas that America was founded on behind this giant fleece of a war. We were all played, and every single one of us, from the most staunch republican to the most marxist liberal should be mad as hell. FURIOUS!

"I believe that as a society, we are beginning to lose touch on what it means to be an American, we were not founded by peace loving hippies, or people who believed life should be fair, that is called socialism. We were founded by people who buster their *** to build a life for themselves with no help from anyone else, and they were willing to die and/or kill for what they created."

You might want to go pick up a history book that wasn't written in the Land of Dixie.

This country WAS found many people who by your standards "hippies" Go look up Quaker religion, also, look up why the first pilgrims came here in the first place. You'll also find that many of our founding fathers were tradesmen and masons, many of them not religious at all. Quite a few of them were inventors and men of science. They founded this country on the belief that there should be peace and liberty for all people within her borders. That those who should find themselves persecuted (by the church ironically) should find the freedom and safety to practice their beliefs here without a cast eye. That we may not always agree, but that there would be a set of laws that would govern instead of religion. That when that peace or liberty should be threatened that we all have the right to bear arms and fight for it. Not to go out into the world and make war for out own agenda, but rather to protect others and offer them the means of democracy as we have found it.

That's not to say that so many of those founders weren't religious, just that having been persecuted themselves, they KNEW that religion is not always of a clear mind and should not enter into the equation in the governance of law.

Sounds an awful lot like "hippies" to me.

Course, Jesus, by modern standards would also be a tree-hugging, bum-***, liberal hippy. If most of us saw him on the street we'd probably tell him to get a job.

As far as I go, I think we went from the tenants of capitalism fueled by the idea of lifting anyone willing to do a hard days work to straight up greed and the willingness to sell out anyone and everything in the name of one more dollar in the corporate coffers. I think we too often don't stand up for what's right, but for what's comfortable, convenient and profitable. That we too often worry about what's going on outside our borders instead of what's going on inside them. That we have sold our morals, stopped walking in the other guys shoes, and have ditched all semblance of honor, dignity and respect for our fellow man and neighbors. Most of the most giving, hard working, trustworthy and dignified people I have known have been least well to do. I believe that as American's we owe it to the rest of the world and to ourselves to set examples of liberty, prosperity, compassion and respect. Even when in disagreement we should be able to take a view from the other side. we need to get out more and meet more people. Different people, and often times, people that don't have the same views as us. It only makes us richer as a people. I think anytime this ideal is challenged, we should meet with with strong disagreement and subtle, strong willed diplomacy. When this ideal is threatened, it should be met with methods of making clear that we will not be put into the position of compromising those beliefs. When it is attacked we meet it with swift, intelligent, strategic and unrelenting force.

Being reasonable, thoughtful and restrained is not the same as bending over and pulling down your pants.

As far as the topic of the post, I do wish there were a clear and easy path forward with regards to the economy and the recent troubles we see. Unfortunately that's not the case, if it were, we wouldn't be in the mess in the first place. I say give the man a fair shake, he's been in office all of three months. I don't want to see less rights, bigger government and more debt anymore than the next guy, but sometimes the gotta burn the brush to save the trees, and if you think that 600 dollar "refund" you got last year was somehow making the last 8 years any better, you might wanna take another look at the big picture.

We've tried it the other way, let's give these guys a chance too, and if that doesn't work, let's vote them ALL out next time around. I think the status quo has gone on far too long. I do feel that the man himself is trying to do things more to the middle but is essentially being screwed by not only his opponents but his own party. Like it or not. All those people on capitol hill are the same. They all have the perks, the cushy job and the power to make things happen the way THEY want them too. I mean, isn't it a giant wad of guey spit in you face that they manage to vote themselves a raise every single year including this year and the last three while we all struggle and the minimum hasn't been raised in eons?

Cheers,
technocoy

You make it very clear
Thank you !

[Osteomata]

Not sure who you are talking to with this comment. Is your Dove/"think of the children"/Kumbaya singers routine just a strawman by which you can dismiss those critics of the war? Cause I'm hardly a dove and avoid using "think of the children" phrases like the plague. My comment you quoted was a normative statement addressing where the 650K casualty figure came from. Casualties associated with Saddam's reign are a different study.

As I stated to Marlin, if you defend the war and occupation as a humanitarian mission, so be it. But I question the legitimacy of those who claim this as a primary or even significant consideration in their support for the invasion. It strikes me as nothing more than a post-fact rationalization. A rather straight forward test of this would be to ask if the person holding this "Iraq is justified on humanitarian grounds" belief was also in favor of unilateral Rwandan and Darfur intervention.


Are taking into account the bodies in mass graves killed by Saddam but found since the war started plus the many killed in suicide bombings. I do not like the war but the many people in Iraq who had relatives killed and tortured must appreciate our sacrifice. I would like any Dove to please explain why they always complain about the injustices of the world scream "think of the children" then all they want to do is talk about it to the butchers doing it sing Kum Bay Ah and then actually complain when someone does something that makes a difference.

[tomdietrying]

circmand, you are missing the main point, and the point you are missing is HUGE. We invaded a country. Any country not even the USA is allowed to invade a country without just cause. We, America, save countries who were invaded by other countries. At least that what we are supposed to do. Our government lied to the American people why we went there. Now they are trying to justicfy their lies with the good deeds of building up the country that we blew up. Does that not bother you in the least?

We, as a country, need our integrity back. It begins with individuals holding people accountable for the decisions that were made.
Peace.
Tom

[don moore]

So lets go invade Afghanistan next...

[Bulldoggie]

You make it very clear
Thank you !
I found this post well thought out also. Thanks Technocoy:thumbup:

A comparison of choosing between Republican and Democratic Polticians,
is like choosing between Pepsi and Coke.
They both have their fair share of bad taste and health.

[circmand]

circmand, you are missing the main point, and the point you are missing is HUGE. We invaded a country. Any country not even the USA is allowed to invade a country without just cause. Tom

Sorry Tom but every country in the world that exists or ever did exisst is a result of one country invading another. Unless you propose moving out and handing the country back to the native americans we are an occupying force. Rome invaded most of Europe as did Napolean later, Genghis Khan did the same with most of Asia.



We, America, save countries who were invaded by other countries. At least that what we are supposed to do. Tom

Where does this come from? The Constitution? The Bill of Rights? No this is not and never has been the reason America exists. This is an arguement for starting a war withcountries you think we should be fighting and an excusde to blame our leaders when they start a war you do not want a war with. Give me a list of what gives us a right to invade SOME countries. Remember Sadaam killed millions is that okay? Should we not have taken him out because the people he killed where Iraqi? Remember Iraq is a country made up of 3 earler countries where one took over the other two. Iraq only became Iraq in 1922 before that it was ruled by Britain after it was taken from Turkey and before that part of the Ottoman Empire and earlier it was called Mesopatamia. Now over the centuries all nationalities have interbreeded and it is the country of Iraq but till 1920 there was no Iraq and such no Iraqis.


Our government lied to the American people why we went there. Now they are trying to justicfy their lies with the good deeds of building up the country that we blew up. Does that not bother you in the least? Tom

Of course it does. I never argued it was a good idea. My issue is the one that despite just about every Senator and Congressman voting for the war certain uninformed peple think it was just George Bushh or Dick Cheney who did the deed. Why them and not Pelosi, Murtha and all the others? Well because they are my party so their misdeeds do not count.


We, as a country, need our integrity back. It begins with individuals holding people accountable for the decisions that were made.
Peace.Tom

This is just plain ludicrous. If you think we ever had a politician or leader or even the country had an image of integrity. Were we loved and respected when the hostages were taken in Iran and Carter was Prez? How about by the Cubans during the Bay of Pigs under Kannedy and he plotted with the Mafia to assassinate Castro, or by the Japanese on Dec 7 1941? I have not argued Bush was right. I have simply asked questions that would make the people who made statements prove it. It was assumed that since I had the temerity to question that I was for Bush. Frankly I do not trust either Party. And too many people in this country vote a party and not a platform based on their own self interest and think it is okay if their candidate does something that they bewail and moan about if someone from the other party does it.

[circmand]

I found this post well thought out also. Thanks Technocoy:thumbup:

A comparison of choosing between Republican and Democratic Polticians,
is like choosing between Pepsi and Coke.
They both have their fair share of bad taste and health.

Though I would have said they both taste good initially but both are very bad for you.

[tomdietrying]

circmand,

Point 1 - I realize every country has got to where they are by destroying another country. I have seen what we have done to gain our our presence in the world. When I was younger, I didn't give a s2h3t. Now that I'm older, smarter, and wiser, I choose to look at it different. I just don't see it as being right.

Point 2/3- How did Saadam get to power? Who gave him the weapons? Who gave him permission? Answer to all three - We did. Don't pretend we did not know what he was doing.

A country, by the rules of war, cannot invade a soveriegn nation because it feels like it. That's a war crime.

Point 4 - I hold everyone responsible for us going to to Iraq, but Cheney/Bush get most of the credit for taking us there because they were the CEOs of the country. You seem to act they had nothing to do with it. They had everything to do with it.

Point 5 - I guess integrity is a value that doesn't sound very important to you. There are many people who never obtain it. I just hope more than half the world has it than doesn't have it.

Point 6 - Reading through your post, you didn't deny voting for Bush twice. If I made a wrong accusation about you voting for Bush both times, I'll be the first to apologize.

Peace.
Tom

[vt_maverick]

Not meant to be a reply to anyone in specific, just some thoughts based on my experience working with the military and intelligence communities as a government civilian and contractor over the past few years.

1. In retrospect, there was no good reason to invade Iraq. We didn't really know enough (or at least as much as we thought we did) to go invading another sovreign nation, and even what I would call the "humanitarian side-effect" that folks talk about now isn't enough. As my Dad likes to say, "it's bad everywhere", and as others have pointed out, it's not like Iraq was the worst place by any means. The truth is that no government will ever involve itself in a conflict of any size based purely on the right and wrong of the situation - there are always other factors, the primary of which are the significance of the situation to average Americans and the expected cost (dollars and lives) that an action will likely incur. This is reality, and like it or not it's the responsible way to run anything from a country to a small business. Even charity organizations know they can't fix everything. President Kennedy probably said it best when we he said this:

"And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient, that we are only six percent of the world's population, that we cannot impose our will upon the other ninety-four percent of mankind, that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem."

2. This does not mean that good things aren't going on in Iraq anyway. Folks that have been on the ground over there (especially those that have done multiple tours) will tell you that there is a lot of pro-American sentiment amongst a majority of the population, and real progress has been made on infrastructure upgrades, stabilization of government, etc. Again, this is not an acceptable reason for justifying the invasion after the fact, but it's simultaneously undeniable that good things are now happening.

3. Nowhere near an exact figure of fatalities will ever be known, but the number of Americans who've died is only a tiny percentage of the overall casualties. I think we should be ashamed that we scream about 4-5K coalition casualties when the Iraqi people have suffered exponentially more. I believe the general American public has lost its stomach for war and our enemies know this, and as such their specific strategy is to scare us into leaving. I believe we owe it to those Iraqi citizens that have died, most of whom we killed with our own bombs, to help them stabilize their country before we leave. I think that means we need to be prepared to spend whatever dollar figure, and however many more American lives it takes. We made this mistake and it's our responsibility to fix it. Anything less only further weakens our credibility as a force of good on the world stage.

4. The Iraq conflict is really a tale of two struggles, and when you divide the US death count as such, you realize two truths which you may or may not see as positive. The first death count is from the actual war (up to the infamous "Mission Accomplished" point) and is a small percentage of the overall number. This is a credit to the training and professionalism of our armed forces, which managed to defeat a SYMMETRIC threat with a ridiculously small number of casualties. The second count really is from what would be better termed as an "occupation effort" and is much higher. I believe this is a credit to us as a nation; we know we really stepped into it when we went over there, but in the face of a mounting body count we have been determined to fix things before we leave. (I know plenty of Army guys that keep volunteering to go back because they feel such a conviction to make things better.) Again, that doesn't pardon our obvious lack of a front-end strategy or diminish the fact that going over there to begin with was a bad idea. But I believe is says something about us as a people that we should be proud of.

5. Unfortunately we may never know the exact reason why it happened, largely because EVERYONE, from the former administration, to Congressional leaders, to the director of the CIA, to individual civilian, military, and contractor analysts, probably all played some part. Bush may or may not have had a personal vendetta, he may or may not have been the puppet of Cheney and others, members of Congress may or may not have felt compelled to agree with the invasion to avoid appearing "soft" on terrorism, the director of the CIA may or may not have been pressured to have his guys/gals find something in Iraq to attack, and some junior analyst somewhere may or may not have just been trying to be a hero to his bosses to get promoted early and made the whole thing up. (Btw, there's a movie called "The Tailor of Panama" that explores this idea but from a totally different perspective.) The truth is that there's blood on the hands of individuals at all levels and in both parties, and pointing fingers after the fact is pointless and occasionally borders on childish. So get over it. Studying history to learn its lessons is critical, but I don't think calling each other and our leaders hippies, war mongerers, or just plain idiots qualifies as careful examination. People from all walks of life, belief systems, and IQ levels made this thing happen. Now how do we avoid it next time?

6. Contractors, including Halliburton, don't try to start wars just to make money. Lots of contractors have been killed in this conflict, and no company wants that to happen, regardless of how much profit there is to be made. That said, waste and abuse is beyond rampant in the DoD and intelligence community amongst both "govies" and contractors, and it was that way long before Iraq and even 9/11. Unfortunately swelling budgets coupled with decreasing oversight have made the problem dramatically worse. From other threads I expect some of you guys already know this, but for the uninitiated (say from ivory towers in California - :rolleyes: give me a break btw) the DoD and IC has two funding black holes. One is called "end of year" funds, which is basically a system where money is miser-ed for the first 10 months of the fiscal year, and then blown on anything and everything in the last two months to prevent an organization's budget from shrinking. This situation has existed for awhile, and is an inevitable product of government budgeting policy. The other and far more dangerous and wasteful pot is called "GWOT (Global War on Terror)" funds, which from what I've seen is an endless stream of money that is considered supplemental to the existing budget. In principle it's a good idea; when fighting an asymmetric enemy an organization may be unable to adequately plan for every eventuality, so it's good to have a general pot of money in reserve that they can tap into for help. In practice there's very little careful examination of what's being spent and why. In my personal experience I've seen it wasted on anything from six 72" plasma displays for a 20' X 30' office to funding efforts that directly compete with other budgeted efforts. I even saw a request for $20 million to move a satellite dish from once side of a base to the other. Thank God our Director used to work in that area and knew it would only cost about $600K. :eek: The bottom line is shame on the government for simply encouraging capitalism to take its inevitable course. Budget policy, not oft-cited contractor greed, is the problem that needs to be addressed.

Moral of the story: there's a lot of complexity to this situation and politics in general, so don't buy into the oversimplified and trite soundbites and insults you hear on CNN, FoxNews, SNL, or on your favorite radio talk show. It's just not that simple.

Anywho, just some thoughts... :)

[technocoy]

Maverick,

These pretty much mirror my thoughts on the grey area that exists in situations like this...

So many people want to make things black and white and the complexity of life just doesn't allow that. Also, experience speaks a different language than perception.

The only point I may argue is whether or not contractors such as Haliburton, Blackwater, etc would actively push a war. I think you might give people too much credit on that one.

Other than that, I feel your post is pretty much spot on and a good show of the delicate balance that exists.

At the end of the day many of the republicans are eating dinner and having beers with many of the democrats. They're one in the same if you ask me minus a few ridiculous (in the big scheme of things) contention points they use to hold sway over a certain group of people and their ideologies. They put on an intricate play, but in the end, the power players want very similar things, otherwise I don't know that we'd ever have moved very far in any particular direction, what with all the filibusters and hold-outs and drama that we are privy to through our "news" outlets.

[tomdietrying]

Maverick,
You should run for office in 8 years, any office, and any political affiliation. I'd vote for you.
Peace.
Tom