Timing Belt Broken...

[kronopoliz]

Driving to work... 130K mile VX out 150 yrds from the driveway and the engine shuts off. The sweet sounds of STP still pumping through the speakers without a beat. I coast to the side of the road...stop...turn key and starter cranks with no start. Towed to house and replace battery (needed it), fuel filter, checked fuses, checked for fuel in the rails, replaced air filter for ****s n giggles (needed that too) and no luck.
Towed it to the shop. Noted to the mechanic that starter sounded higher pitched with half the rotation repetition but would not start. Mechanic calls me back and says the timing belt broke. Tells me $320 to replace I feel fair, give him the go. He starts to warn me that this may not fix as he has gotten a 50/50 opinion that this is an interference vs. non-interference engine and may have bent valves upon failure. Gets the belt on and tells me compression is fine (i think 150lb per cylinder) but... water pump is bad and radiator is half full ( I hear half empty) but opt for the replace as a complex heat problem has been killing this truck from the front to the back for some time. Mechanic says ran great for 20 minutes then the fan clutch assembly started to work its way off the fan pulley. Part replace $130. I'm into it $600 by now and go to check it out. They tried to weld the pulley back on but would not fit due to welds in way of fan clutch seating (if I've lost you by now you're not intimate with your VX) Calls back and says the part he orders is the wrong part and the factory replacement is $300. I say no way and he says thats ok. They grinded down the pulley and all is good but says now....
The engine is misfiring badly. Asks me if I've had this problem before and of course I hadn't. He eludes to a mechanical failure, specifically a broken camshaft. I show up just before they pop the valve cover and alas the lobes look fine and no excessive signs of wear. Haven't yet grilled them on the spark plug replacement and why they didn't address the electronics diagnostics as they haven't explored the trouble code of cylinder misfire without being more specific. Talked to a Isuzu dealership mechanic whom seems knowledgeable and he says in theory that this is a non-interference engine but has seen bent valves on rare occasions. Also eluded that compression tests might test good without indicating bent valves and that he would conduct a leak down test. Supposedly would verify bent valve without pulling cylinder head. Now as I've said I'm $600 into it with replacement belt, water pump, spark plugs, and labor from a somewhat reputable shop. Should I tell em to button it up an bring her home or does anyone here have advice to offer from this long *** diagnostic description of the headaches from my 1999 VX. I swear I'll keep this bitch on the road if it kills me. Please advise.

[pbkid]

:waab:

thats about all the technical input i have...

good luck brother, keep her goin!

[Triathlete]

Missfire after a timing belt replacement could be the timing belt is off a tooth or so.

[VCrossfan]

The Clutch fan prob is most likely a failure to do a final tightening off the bolts upon reassembly ( but the mechanic will deny that) and another member here had an issue while installing a timing belt, even though all the correct marks and grooves lineup then lifters have to be loaded (if I remember correctly) The member and mechanic ran out of things to try and another member here had a better shop manual and posted what step had been missed upon installation. And the 3.5 is a non-interference engine so there are no valves bent do to the belt breaking. Other members will chime in and fill in the many blanks I have forgot. Don't let the garage tear into it until the VX knowledge gang chimes in. When I did my timing belt I made sure I didn't lose my lifter pump, they wanted to unload but I used a few well placed wire-ties and wire. But I realize in you case there was nothing you could do.. If I find the long post about the other member I'll paste it here...good luck

Update read through this thread, it might have some answers..
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=8070&highlight=timing+belt

[johnnyapollo]

From what I remember there's a thread about how the timing belt install directions in one manual show it off what it should be - a quick search should find you that thread.

-- John

[pbkid]

bart(nfpgasmask) did a great writeup on how to do the timing belt, and may have some information for you

[Ldub]

bart(nfpgasmask) did a great writeup on how to do the timing belt, and may have some information for you

http://www.nofuture.com/myvx/how-tos/tb/tbelt.htm

[crotchrocket]

I'd say the garage sound like they are giving it a go and not ripping you off, the water pump was a bit of an extra expence that wasn't a result of the timing belt breakage but sounds like it needed doing and a slap on the wrist for not keeping the cooling system topped up!!!

Did they weld fan assembly in situ? maybe an electrical fault due to that? Other than that i'd say they need to follow the advise above on the cam belt change although i dont understand why it would run fine for 20 mins as the timing cant just drop out ??

[tom4bren]

Several members have indicated that misfires were caused by bad connections on one or more of the coil packs located on top of the spark plugs. Simple cleaning and reconnection may solve the problem.

[psychos2]

I would say the cams are out of time with the crank. There is a certain way to re time the cams and if you do not do it the right way it will be off. If I remember right there is a TSB on this as the original manual had it wrong.
here is the tsb. click on the one that says timing belt installation.
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=12867&highlight=tsb

[nfpgasmask]

Missfire after a timing belt replacement could be the timing belt is off a tooth or so.

x2. That's what I am thinking. Given the recent history and what you said, it could very easily be bad timing.

I did my timing belt and water pump and various pulleys myself, and it cost me $900 in parts. So don't feel too bad yet. I would get the the pulleys off and re-time the VX. There are several videos on how to do it and the shop manual is available on this forum. Also, see my how-to. You should be able to see if the timing is correct without pulling the belt off. Which will save you some work.

http://www.nofuture.com/myvx/how-tos/tb/tbelt.htm

Bart

[psychos2]

x2. That's what I am thinking. Given the recent history and what you said, it could very easily be bad timing.

I did my timing belt and water pump and various pulleys myself, and it cost me $900 in parts. So don't feel too bad yet. I would get the the pulleys off and re-time the VX. There are several videos on how to do it and the shop manual is available on this forum. Also, see my how-to. You should be able to see if the timing is correct without pulling the belt off. Which will save you some work.

http://www.nofuture.com/myvx/how-tos/tb/tbelt.htm

Bart

The how tos are people that have changed them without breaking the belt.He needs to have them follow the TSB as it shows the correct way to re time the cams. shawn

[nfpgasmask]

The how tos are people that have changed them without breaking the belt.He needs to have them follow the TSB as it shows the correct way to re time the cams. shawn

Yes, that is why I suggested the videos. There is a video somewhere showing how to re-time the belt. That would be the most help.

Bart

[psychos2]

Yes, that is why I suggested the videos. There is a video somewhere showing how to re-time the belt. That would be the most help.

Bart

In the link that you posted it shows how to replace the belt if it is not broken. In the tsb I posted it tells how to re time the cams if the belt is broken.You cannot just turn the cam to the mark and have it be in time.It tells you in the tsb that it can take up to 9 full turns to get the cam back in time.So he cannot check to see if it is in time without removing the belt. shawn

[nfpgasmask]

In the link that you posted it shows how to replace the belt if it is not broken. In the tsb I posted it tells how to re time the cams if the belt is broken.You cannot just turn the cam to the mark and have it be in time.It tells you in the tsb that it can take up to 9 full turns to get the cam back in time.So he cannot check to see if it is in time without removing the belt. shawn

OK, well, if he leaves the belt on and turns the crankshaft pulley, at every full turn the notches should line up. If they do not, then it is obvious the timing is off. That's all I was saying. It would just be a quick check. But you are right, if the timing is definitely off, you cannot re-time without removing the belt.

Bart

[psychos2]

OK, well, if he leaves the belt on and turns the crankshaft pulley, at every full turn the notches should line up. If they do not, then it is obvious the timing is off. That's all I was saying. It would just be a quick check. But you are right, if the timing is definitely off, you cannot re-time without removing the belt.

Bart

The notches can still be lined up and the timing off, that is the problem.If it can take up to 9 turns to get the cams in the correct spot than there are 9 possibilities per side. He cannot check the cam timing without removing the belt and turning the cams. If you look at the TSB and read the part about timing the cams you will understand what I mean. It is not like timing a single cam engine or even a twin cam engine There are 4 cams turned by 2 pulleys and with the differences in gear ratios it is more complicated than checking marks to see if they are lined up once the timing has been disturbed. shawn

[nfpgasmask]

The notches can still be lined up and the timing off, that is the problem.If it can take up to 9 turns to get the cams in the correct spot than there are 9 possibilities per side. He cannot check the cam timing without removing the belt and turning the cams. If you look at the TSB and read the part about timing the cams you will understand what I mean. It is not like timing a single cam engine or even a twin cam engine There are 4 cams turned by 2 pulleys and with the differences in gear ratios it is more complicated than checking marks to see if they are lined up once the timing has been disturbed. shawn

Good info. My knowledge on this is definitely limited to doing a timing belt change when the timing is still correct.

Thanks - Bart

[kronopoliz]

Thanks for the input. Vcross is fixed. Now the driver door window assembly cable broke. Maybe I can fix the window prob with some modification upon replacement of this part.

[psychos2]

Thanks for the input. Vcross is fixed. Now the driver door window assembly cable broke. Maybe I can fix the window prob with some modification upon replacement of this part.

So what did they do to fix it?

[VX KAT]

And the 3.5 is a non-interference engine so there are no valves bent do to the belt breaking.

OK I'm not sure where this stands or what the answer is.......is the 3.5 a non-interference engine or not? Member "Crossman" who is currently selling his 2001 Proton advised this is an interference engine and now today while getting Kilby skids installed, mechanic looked it up in his latest "book". Says it IS AN INTERFERENCE ENGINE if 8th VIN digit is an "X". :confused::confused::confused: Help......:_confused:_confused:_thinking

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/DSC_0883.JPG (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16558)
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/DSC_0874.JPG (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16555)
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/DSC_0877.JPG (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16557)
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/DSC_0878.JPG (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16556)

[deermagnet]

We've seen various sources say our engine is an interference engine and none of them are the people who made the engine. Isuzu Motors in a tech training manual for the new '98 3.2L and 3.5L engines says these engines are non-interference engines.

http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/publish/mgpa/vx3/98valve.jpg

The eighth digit in the VIN just designates what engine the vehicle has, 3.2, 3.5, 3.5DI, 2.2, and so on.

Mark

[Scott Larson]

According to a reputable mechanic friend and by my understanding as well, the Suzi 3.5 is indeed an interference engine. Meaning, of course, that if the valve timing is disrupted that the pistons WILL come in contact with the valves, thereby causing damage! Bent valves/collapsed pistons=not good...In any case, a broken timing belt is a pain in the posterior!

[VCrossfan]

OK I'm not sure where this stands or what the answer is.......is the 3.5 a non-interference engine or not? Member "Crossman" who is currently selling his 2001 Proton advised this is an interference engine and now today while getting Kilby skids installed, mechanic looked it up in his latest "book". Says it IS AN INTERFERENCE ENGINE if 8th VIN digit is an "X". :confused::confused::confused: Help......:_confused:_confused:_thinking

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/DSC_0883.JPG (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16558)
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/DSC_0874.JPG (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16555)
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/DSC_0877.JPG (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16557)
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/DSC_0878.JPG (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16556)



ALL ISUZU V6 ENGS ARE NON INTERFERENCE ENGS FROM 92 TROOPER ALL THE WAY TO 2002 AND THE RODEOS 93 THRU THE 2003 MODEL YEAR,

3.2 3.5 DOHC AND SOHC

2004 DI (Direct Injection) 3.5 IS AN INTERFERENCE ENG

[deermagnet]

In this Isuzu produced tech training video I have explaining the new 3.2L and 3.5L engines, at about 5:45 he explains how these engines are "free wheeling" and will not be damaged by a broken timing belt.

9:31, 16.3 MB, WMV file-
http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/publish/mgpa/techvids/engine.wmv (http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/publish/mgpa/techvids/engine.wmv)

In the Isuzu TSB for timing belt replacement, when timing has been lost, the first thing you do is rotate the crankshaft to line up the mark and set #2 cylinder at TDC. Then you work on getting the camshafts rotated in place. Rotating the crank is just like the engine running. If it was an interference engine you could never do that without getting all the valves out of the way first.

I think it's safe to say this is a non-interference engine.

Mark

[VX KAT]

Phew, thanks guys, I like that answer! And I like the logical way Mark supports it. Gives me some more time to procrastinate and get it done a little later $$. I'm at 68,500 now, so I need to start thinking about it.....I think:laugho:

[deermagnet]

Sue, I had mine done at 118K miles. I won't get it done again til 250K. Many who have changed it around 100K have said it still looked new! You could possibly take off one of the covers and try to see what condition it appears to be in.

History tells us your water pump will probably start leaking before the belt fails. Then you get the belt done along with a new water pump. That's actually the reason why I had my belt changed.

Mark

[VX KAT]

Sue, I had mine done at 118K miles. I won't get it done again til 250K. Many who have changed it around 100K have said it still looked new! You could possibly take off one of the covers and try to see what condition it appears to be in.

Mark
OK, great, I just crossed this one of my 2010 "to do" list as I only put on about 4k a year....looks like it may be time in, oh, I don't know, let's say closer to 2020!
Thanks again!:thanx:

[deermagnet]

4K a year? Holy smokes, in the summer I put on 3K a month! :)

Mark

[VX KAT]

4K a year? Holy smokes, in the summer I put on 3K a month! :)

Mark
yeah I noticed you went from your 200k post to 206k in a real short time and wondering where you put on that many miles so fast. We're lucky and fortunate to have 3 cars...and live with trails all around us so we can be on a trail literally in 5 mins. Those pics I took of the new Cooper tires back in June, those are on the hill in front of my house...like 1000 ft away..it's got no name, so I call it a trail. That's why we moved to this part of AZ. Love it! But hey, I put in my time, I lived in LA for 15 yrs and did the LA freeway thing for about 80 miles/day.....glad that torture is over!
:hj:...sorry....

[mrtew]

Thanks for the input. Vcross is fixed.

Dude you can't just post that without saying what the answer to all those problems was!!!

[VCrossfan]

Phew, thanks guys, I like that answer! And I like the logical way Mark supports it. Gives me some more time to procrastinate and get it done a little later $$. I'm at 68,500 now, so I need to start thinking about it.....I think:laugho:

I know every part wears different based on usage, age, climate etc. But I replaced mine at around 90k Kat and the OEM Belt looked great. My VX came from Pennsylvania and has been in the Illinois climate for 6 years now. I replaced in 2005 I think, got 160k now and running great..

[circmand]

http://www.nofuture.com/myvx/how-tos/tb/tbelt.htm


I am about to have my timing belt changed. Wisdom states do th ewater pump now as it is cheaper than having to do it later. Now is this just a safety decision and still the suggested advice. And if the water pump is prone to failure is an OEM water pump the way to go and if so why?


Thanks

[MSHardeman]

I just did my own timing belt (per Bart's very excellent instructions) and even though I wasn't having a problem with my water pump, I replaced it while I was in there anyway. After seeing how hard it was just to get to the dang thing I REALLY didn't want to have to go back in there until it's time to change the timing belt again in another 90k-100k miles. The cost to replace the water pump at a later date would probably be about the same as just changing the timing belt because you have to remove almost everything you would to do the belt just to get at the water pump. I would suggest doing it now to avoid the headache (and wallet ache) later.

I went with an Isuzu stock water pump because I figured if it lasted me almost 100k miles the first time then it must be good stuff. That's just me, though, and I'm sure others have used after market pumps with no problems.