4 Officers shot near Lakewood WA

[VX KAT]

Heard the terrible news that 4 police officers were gunned down & killed near Lakewood WA, :nob:....sure hope they get the killer fast.:mado: See that this is very near at least 2 or 3 of our VXers...."Rowhard", "Riff Raff" and "wekilled"...(which sounds really bad right now :nonegray:). Sure hope all your loved ones are safe and they get this guy asap..and I mean GET 'em.

[Ldub]

I'm with you!
If the shooter never see's the inside of a courtroom, it's OK with me...:deadgray:

Hope all our VX Fam in the area was/is out of harms way.

[don moore]

grrrrr.....

[VXR]

:confused::confused:Person of interest in police killings had life sentence commuted:confused::confused:

Clemmons has an extensive criminal past - including a lengthy prison sentence commuted by former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee nearly a decade ago.

[Riff Raff]

Thank you so very much for your kind words. I personally live and work in Lakewood, WA which is technically a suburb of Tacoma, WA. The City of Lakewood Police Department HQ's is 1-block away from my Tavern and Lakewood City Hall is 1-block away in the other direction. I personally know most of the LPD police officer's by their first names including those that were murdered, as they frequent my Tavern quite often for routine license inspections and routine city code enforcement.

Our very tight-knit community of Lakewood is in pure shock by this overwhelming tragety. Our hearts waver between the deepest of sorrow for the fallen Lakewood Police Officers and then swing to the greatest rage of sheer anger for catching the perpitrator. Luckily, the fourth police officer who was fatally shot was able to get one(1) round off at the suspect before he himself finally collasped and died. His single bullet severely wounded the suspect and his trail of blood has lead police to his known whereabouts. His hide-out dwelling is currently surrounded by a tactical SWAT team and they are just waiting for morning daylight to move in.

This unspeakable crime comes right on the heels of a murdered Seattle Police Officer who was gunned down at point blank range as he was doing paperwork while sitting in his squad car this past Halloween night (his partner was also wounded sitting next to him in the front seat of the police cruiser).

I keep waiting for the world to get better and for society to improve. Until then, I will continue to carry my concealed weapon on me at all times loaded with Black Talon bullets. Perhaps someday, I will be in the right place at the right time and can alter a perpitrator's original plan of attack with one of my own. I look forward to the opportunity.

[Moncha]

http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/tears/t2320.gif

[handeeman]

http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/tears/t2320.gif

It's times like this that make me kinda glad I'm the age I am, cause I wonder where this crazyness is headed.

[Mile High VX]

http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/tears/t2320.gif

Thoughts and prayers are with you and your community.

[ZubrAZ]

I keep waiting for the world to get better and for society to improve. Until then, I will continue to carry my concealed weapon on me at all times loaded with Black Talon bullets. Perhaps someday, I will be in the right place at the right time and can alter a perpitrator's original plan of attack with one of my own. I look forward to the opportunity.

... and I'll be waiting for the day when one more of such "carriers" gets crazy and shot innocent people. Or his kids accidentally shot neighborhood dog using his gun.

always wanted to see the statistics on how many innocent people were killed by easily accessible weapons vs how many lives were saved by them [easily accessible weapons]

[nfpgasmask]

... and I'll be waiting for the day when one more of such "carriers" gets crazy and shot innocent people. Or his kids accidentally shot neighborhood dog using his gun.

always wanted to see the statistics on how many innocent people were killed by easily accessible weapons vs how many lives were saved by them [easily accessible weapons]

The stats are out there if you look. But the fact of the matter is that the media likes to tell the bad stories most of the time. You rarely hear about crimes stopped by law abiding citizens carrying a concealed weapon. I'm not saying it happens all the time, but when it comes to gun laws, there is unfortunately no middle ground, it's either for or against. I'm no right-wing red-neck, but I do enjoy my freedoms.

This is America, not the UK, and I support my right to keep, carry and use a firearm. I've said it before and I will say it again- I would rather live in a slightly dangerous FREE country than a boring and tame country were everything is illegal. After they take my guns, they will take my VehiCROSS too.

I hope they catch the P.O.S. and put him through a meat grinder...slowly...with lots of salt.

Bart

[handeeman]

I forget who said it but:
" Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote."

[Mark B]

When the shooters are found guilty of murder, give them one week and they go to the gas chamber. None of this death row stuff and waiting to die of old age while in prison.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the officers and there families.

[KeithVXlvr]

... and I'll be waiting for the day when one more of such "carriers" gets crazy and shot innocent people. Or his kids accidentally shot neighborhood dog using his gun.

always wanted to see the statistics on how many innocent people were killed by easily accessible weapons vs how many lives were saved by them [easily accessible weapons]

ZubraAZ - You are an idiot; shown by your comments. I have a great idea, let’s make guns illegal, I am pretty sure the criminals will turn them in and not create a huge black market for ammunition and guns as well...

Go get 'em Riff Raff !!!!! :)

[RabidPony]

When the shooters are found guilty of murder, give them one week and they go to the gas chamber. None of this death row stuff and waiting to die of old age while in prison.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the officers and there families.


Not even a week. If found guilty you get ONE appeal then it's straight out the back of the courthouse to a firing squad, the hangman, or the chair. I don't give a rats *** about giving a murdering scumbag a humane death. I hope this dirtbag never sees the inside of a courthouse.

[PK]

You guys are way too generous to this A****hole.

Why should he enjoy a quick death when the families of the 4 officers will suffer for years to come.

This offender should be thrown in a dark cell, never to see daylight again, and fed on bread and water for the rest of his life.
With absolutely no communication, verbal, written, or otherwise.

Let him suffer and linger for a long time.





Now you have seen my dark side.

PK

[ZubrAZ]

nfpgasmask, i'll appreciate your efforts if you'll help me to find those stats

[Gussie2000]

This is sad news. :(

I always support the fact that once a individual's criminal behavior becomes cronic it shouldn't be let free at all.

This guys have a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong tale to say when it comes to criminal activities,how dare Mr hukabee can let this bizarre living being out to roam the streets.

I think hukabee & this monster shall be put together to share the same jail room.

To these police officers families my sincere condolences :(

[VX KAT]

I was thinkin' this sure as heck probably tanks Huckabee's prez aspirations........can you say Dukakis and Willy Horton?
This horrific crime is far too horrible to ever forget....
Ambushed in a diner, not even a chance! Fry 'em! Hang 'em high! I lived in Texas for 12 yrs, and loved every minute of it.....All of the above!

[Ldub]

Clemmons shot & killed by Police this morning...:thumbup:

[VXR]

Clemmons shot & killed by Police this morning...

Sounds like up to six or seven of his friends and family were helping him evade police and will now face charges

[samneil2000]

Clemmons shot & killed by Police this morning...:thumbup:

On the Huckabee thing, that has been discussed in the news as well. He came out and said he feels bad about this and feels like he's to blame. But he said that they sent letters out to find out whether the guy's sentence should be commuted to the prosecutor, judge, PD, and two other groups. The judge said he should be commuted, and one of the other groups, the rest did not respond. Huck said he had about 1200 of these a year, and tried to research all of them. The guy was sentenced to 100+ years of prison at the age of 16. The commuted sentence was cut in half I believe, and made him available for parole. Everyone thought the sentence was too heavy, even the judge. So Huckabee listened to their recommendations...
I blame the killer, not Huckabee.
My .02

[vt_maverick]

On the Huckabee thing, that has been discussed in the news as well. He came out and said he feels bad about this and feels like he's to blame. But he said that they sent letters out to find out whether the guy's sentence should be commuted to the prosecutor, judge, PD, and two other groups. The judge said he should be commuted, and one of the other groups, the rest did not respond. Huck said he had about 1200 of these a year, and tried to research all of them. The guy was sentenced to 100+ years of prison at the age of 16. The commuted sentence was cut in half I believe, and made him available for parole. Everyone thought the sentence was too heavy, even the judge. So Huckabee listened to their recommendations...
I blame the killer, not Huckabee.
My .02

If only politics was about reasoning and not soundbytes, maybe the general public would share the same opinion in 2012. But somehow I think he'll more likely be portrayed as an irresponsible accessory to murder :(

[VX KAT]

If only politics was about reasoning and not soundbytes, maybe the general public would share the same opinion in 2012. But somehow I think he'll more likely be portrayed as an irresponsible accessory to murder :(
I agree Maverick, the facts will have nothing to do with it come 2012, never does.....
facts & politics rarely go together!

[circmand]

You want good leadership dont elect politicians. Look at it the only experience they have is running for office. Once elected they have no experience doing the job

[Ldub]

I agree Maverick, the facts will have nothing to do with it come 2012, never does.....
facts & politics rarely go together!

What with the world ending & all like that, whoever is elected will prolly do the best job ever.

You know....having the least amount of time to screw things up will have to be a tremendous advantage...:yesgray:

[Triathlete]

'Dub for Prez 2K12:bwgy:

[Ldub]

'Dub for Prez 2K10:bwgy:

NO THANK U ! ! !

That job, in spite of all the perks, appears to have a rather large SUCK factor...:yesgray:

[PHO2GR4]

I'm with you!
If the shooter never see's the inside of a courtroom, it's OK with me...:deadgray:

Hope all our VX Fam in the area was/is out of harms way.

Done and done.

[nfpgasmask]

nfpgasmask, i'll appreciate your efforts if you'll help me to find those stats

Unfortunately, my company has blocked all sites related to guns and weapons (go figure, gotta love corporate censorship) so I can't get to any gun sites, but I'm sure if you do a search you will find lots of sites with stories of self defense with a concealed weapon.

Anyway, somehow this site is open and has some info:
http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx

I guess I just don't understand why there is such a movement against guns. Yes, they are devices designed with a single, clearly defined purpose. But this country was founded on the freedoms many people take for granted. And it was also born of violence. There is no utopia. There never will be, so long as humankind inhabits this planet. And like I said before, a little danger is fun. Who wants to live in a completely sterile society where everything is illegal except TV and video games and fast food???

Sorry, but there is no convincing me that the world can be a better place.

Bart

[VXR]

On the Huckabee thing, that has been discussed in the news as well. He came out and said he feels bad about this and feels like he's to blame. But he said that they sent letters out to find out whether the guy's sentence should be commuted to the prosecutor, judge, PD, and two other groups. The judge said he should be commuted, and one of the other groups, the rest did not respond. Huck said he had about 1200 of these a year, and tried to research all of them. The guy was sentenced to 100+ years of prison at the age of 16. The commuted sentence was cut in half I believe, and made him available for parole. Everyone thought the sentence was too heavy, even the judge. So Huckabee listened to their recommendations...
I blame the killer, not Huckabee.
My .02

not if you believe this guy:

Pulaski County Prosecutor Larry Jegley, whose office opposed Clemmons' parole in 2000 and 2004, said Huckabee's comments were "red herrings."

"My word to Mr. Huckabee is man up and own what you did," Jegley said



If only politics was about reasoning and not soundbytes, maybe the general public would share the same opinion in 2012. But somehow I think he'll more likely be portrayed as an irresponsible accessory to murder

This is not the first person he let out who ended up killing someone.

[vt_maverick]

This is not the first person he let out who ended up killing someone.

Makes you miss G-Dub doesn't it? I'm pretty sure I read that he let every inmate on death row fry during his tenture as TX governor. No exceptions.

[pbkid]

I guess I just don't understand why there is such a movement against guns. Yes, they are devices designed with a single, clearly defined purpose. But this country was founded on the freedoms many people take for granted. And it was also born of violence. There is no utopia. There never will be, so long as humankind inhabits this planet. And like I said before, a little danger is fun. Who wants to live in a completely sterile society where everything is illegal except TV and video games and fast food???

Sorry, but there is no convincing me that the world can be a better place.

Bart
x2....

i would MUCH rather have a chance to protect myself than just be a unarmed moving target.....f-that....

ill keep my guns, and ill keep em close ;)

[djvx]

... and I'll be waiting for the day when one more of such "carriers" gets crazy and shot innocent people. Or his kids accidentally shot neighborhood dog using his gun.

always wanted to see the statistics on how many innocent people were killed by easily accessible weapons vs how many lives were saved by them [easily accessible weapons]

Hey ZubrAZ, One of the cops shot back, and hit the shooter in the gut. And maybe if others in the restaraunt had guns they could have shot and KILLED the shooter before he got away. . . Go take a gun shooting class or learn about the subject a little more. Your opinion sounds quite uninformed.

[circmand]

Not to pile on but while you are waiting for a legally armed citizen to screw up and accidentally shoot an inocent bystander illegally armed armed felons are shooting and killing people all over the country. Face it the are enough laws on the books about fire arms and other stuff. Its just that criminals do not obey the laws. So new laws limiting law abiding citizens even further will make us easier targets not safer. While more laws may make you feel safer because you ignore the common sense result it is not a reason for me to be less protected.

[pbkid]

Hey ZubrAZ, One of the cops shot back, and hit the shooter in the gut. And maybe if others in the restaraunt had guns they could have shot and KILLED the shooter before he got away. . . Go take a gun shooting class or learn about the subject a little more. Your opinion sounds quite uninformed.

umm..... every report i heard said that all the officers were armed.......:_thinking
did i hear the wrong report?

[RabidPony]

umm..... every report i heard said that all the officers were armed.......:_thinking
did i hear the wrong report?


He means what if some of the other patrons had guns. The perp knew the police were armed and used the element of surprise to neutralize them before they could really retaliate. However, if one or more of the cafe's other patrons had been armed, they could have eliminated him then and there. Possibly saving the life of one or more of the officers.

I would love to be able to carry but getting your permit in California takes an act of God.

[pbkid]

He means what if some of the other patrons had guns. The perp knew the police were armed and used the element of surprise to neutralize them before they could really retaliate. However, if one or more of the cafe's other patrons had been armed, they could have eliminated him then and there. Possibly saving the life of one or more of the officers.
ya, this is truely sad. one more argument for keeping CWL's around

I would love to be able to carry but getting your permit in California takes an act of God.

:crying: really sad. this is the kinda stuff that causes cops to be overly cautious and seem like a-holes.

[ZubrAZ]

i do believe in statistics. although, i do not have anything to back myself up, i also tend to believe that criminals who kill with weapons (or use weapons for crime), do not get them from stores. to protect themself from easily being tracked, isnt that true? they get guns from different sources

accidental shootings or shootings done by people who go crazy, who being pumped up, lets say, after fist fight, or who take the weapons to brawls to get some confidence (kids in particular) done by those weapons that you can get and that people do get from gun shops.

djvx, good example: 4 armed trained persons were not able to protect themselves (im sorry for them and their families, but it is a fact, they were not). what can you say about regular citizen who does his hundreds shots annually for fun and can aim? is he a protector?! is his gun ownership gonna save his life? I dont think so. But if follow the news, you be sure that to find numerous articles about accidental killings of such owners or their relatives

and im kind of not against the guns, but Iwould rather for much stricter rules to obtain ones, but since there are basically no rules, I'm against them.

[RabidPony]

My .02 on the subject of gun control comes down to the rather cliche saying, "Gun control means using both hands." I think the laws on firearm ownership should be loosened considerably but with the stipulation of required training. I served proudly in the Marine Corps and was brought up around firearms. I was even an firearms instructor at one point. So, due to my training, I can safely and properly handle any type of weapon from a little BB gun all the way up to antitank missiles and everything in between. Therefore, I feel that I should be able to own pretty much any weapon out there. However, I don't think that some suburbanite who thinks he's hard because he watched Rambo but has never held a weapon in his life, should have access to the same weapons I do.

A good example is how the UK handles licensing of motorcycles. Over there you can't just run down to the dealership and pick up an R1 or a Busa if you're a first time rider. They require you to start small and spend a minimum set amount of time on each class of bike before letting you upgrade your license and move up to the next size. I think treating firearms the same here in the US would ultimately result in a much safer public. Start small, and work your way up. Then once you reach the top bracket, get whatever you want.

[circmand]

i do believe in statistics. although, i do not have anything to back myself up, i also tend to believe that criminals who kill with weapons (or use weapons for crime), do not get them from stores. to protect themself from easily being tracked, isnt that true? they get guns from different sources

accidental shootings or shootings done by people who go crazy, who being pumped up, lets say, after fist fight, or who take the weapons to brawls to get some confidence (kids in particular) done by those weapons that you can get and that people do get from gun shops.

djvx, good example: 4 armed trained persons were not able to protect themselves (im sorry for them and their families, but it is a fact, they were not). what can you say about regular citizen who does his hundreds shots annually for fun and can aim? is he a protector?! is his gun ownership gonna save his life? I dont think so. But if follow the news, you be sure that to find numerous articles about accidental killings of such owners or their relatives

and im kind of not against the guns, but Iwould rather for much stricter rules to obtain ones, but since there are basically no rules, I'm against them.

The average hunter shoots far more often than the average cop. I would bet the average gun owner does as well. The training received by most police officers is a far lower amountthan you may think. Even those that graduate from a police academy shoot rarely once qualified. Had there been armed patrons they may not have saved the cops lived but I bet they would have saved the cost of the manhunt.

[pbkid]

The average hunter shoots far more often than the average cop. I would bet the average gun owner does as well. The training received by most police officers is a far lower amountthan you may think. Even those that graduate from a police academy shoot rarely once qualified. Had there been armed patrons they may not have saved the cops lived but I bet they would have saved the cost of the manhunt.

where do you get these statistics circ?? pullin em out your arse? ;)

[Osteomata]

I find this whole thread distressing on many levels. The tragedy is bad enough without our supposedly close knit group turning these officers' deaths into a forum to debate gun control, angrily in at least a few cases ("idiot"). I find it further frustrating that people who would probably define themselves as patriots are perfectly comfortable advocating, in effect, extra-judicial slayings of suspects, and the removal of legally established due process and the entire appeals system, a core part of our legal system, as well. There have been numerous numerous cases of people convicted of horrific, serious crimes, capital offenses, only to have later evidence prove them innocent. Further, eliminating any appeals process would massively encourage already rampant prosecutorial misconduct, since there would be no forum in which to find it. I like to count myself as a patriot too, and I am willing to bet that these officers were patriots as well, and I like to hope, perhaps naively, that some of them, as officers of the law, would want us to support the actual laws and constitution rather than the third world autocratic death squad state some of you seem to be arguing for.
/rant

[circmand]

I find this whole thread distressing on many levels. The tragedy is bad enough without our supposedly close knit group turning these officers' deaths into a forum to debate gun control, angrily in at least a few cases ("idiot"). I find it further frustrating that people who would probably define themselves as patriots are perfectly comfortable advocating, in effect, extra-judicial slayings of suspects, and the removal of legally established due process and the entire appeals system, a core part of our legal system, as well. There have been numerous numerous cases of people convicted of horrific, serious crimes, capital offenses, only to have later evidence prove them innocent. Further, eliminating any appeals process would massively encourage already rampant prosecutorial misconduct, since there would be no forum in which to find it. I like to count myself as a patriot too, and I am willing to bet that these officers were patriots as well, and I like to hope, perhaps naively, that some of them, as officers of the law, would want us to support the actual laws and constitution rather than the third world autocratic death squad state some of you seem to be arguing for.
/rant

We have the right to free speech and you have the right to ignore us. Just because we all share an affinity for an unique automobile does not mean we have to march in lock step in every thought. We are all adults (I think) and should be mature enough to realize not everyone will agree with us even if we all drive the same car. Remember we all customize a different way and have chosen from a rainbow of colors. Of course it is great that you share your thoughts with us as well.

[RabidPony]

I find this whole thread distressing on many levels. The tragedy is bad enough without our supposedly close knit group turning these officers' deaths into a forum to debate gun control, angrily in at least a few cases ("idiot"). I find it further frustrating that people who would probably define themselves as patriots are perfectly comfortable advocating, in effect, extra-judicial slayings of suspects, and the removal of legally established due process and the entire appeals system, a core part of our legal system, as well. There have been numerous numerous cases of people convicted of horrific, serious crimes, capital offenses, only to have later evidence prove them innocent. Further, eliminating any appeals process would massively encourage already rampant prosecutorial misconduct, since there would be no forum in which to find it. I like to count myself as a patriot too, and I am willing to bet that these officers were patriots as well, and I like to hope, perhaps naively, that some of them, as officers of the law, would want us to support the actual laws and constitution rather than the third world autocratic death squad state some of you seem to be arguing for.
/rant

I do support our legal system, however, I also realize that it is far from perfect. It is a very unfortunate fact that there are thousands of less than moral members of the legal community out there that have so twisted our legal system that it has come to the point where it sometime seems that the criminals are more protected and have more rights than a good, law abiding citizen. That, I feel, is a shame. I do not advocate death squads or any facsimile there of, I do, however, feel that it is unfair and unjust that someone who murders another person live out their life to it's natural end, incarcerated or not. I should not have to pay to support someone who is a bane to society with the taxes taken from my hard earned money. I can think of much better things to spend the money on. Better pay, training, and equipment for law enforcement for example.

I do mourn the loss of those officers and my sympathies go out to their families in their time of mourning. But that does not mean I will put aside my anger and frustration with the person that committed the heinous act. He did it, there were witnesses who identified him. There was no question as to his guilt. In my eyes, his death at the hands of that officer was justified and only served to save the taxpayers of that city and state the time, effort, and valuable taxpayer money that would have been expended on his trial and incarceration.

[Ldub]

RabidPony 4 PREZ!:yes:

[circmand]

where do you get these statistics circ?? pullin em out your arse? ;)

If you read the following article you will see some states require as little as 3 hours fire arms training a year with the rest being 16 hours or under. As the article states the training is mostly target shooting on a range. While any firearm owner who enjoys shooting will probably do at least this much the average hunter is spending days tracking and shooting at a moving target. While we cant train anyone with the target shooting back a moving hard to spot target is far more useful than shooting at a piece of papers even if it has a picture of a bad guy.

Obsolescence: The Police Firearms Training Dilemma
By Thomas J. Aveni, MSFP
The Police Policy Studies Council

[Osteomata]

No, you absolutely do not support our legal system. You support an imagined caricatur of it more suited for a dceveloping world or an authoritarian state. The existance of less than moral people has little to do with providing a very careful process before we allow the state to kill them. Your sense of victimhood is palpable, and overblown. This system, which you so decry for supposedly providing more rights to criminals than you, has now resulted in a country with the highest percentage of our population in jail in the world. Higher than the Soviet gulag period even. There are lots and lots of things that I don't want to pay taxes to support, legal due process is not one I begrudge the government paying for.

You so easily conflate anger at the person who did this crime with justification for removing core principles of our legal system. Fine, but recognize it as an emotional response to tragedy, not a reasonable policy proposal. And I agree, his death at the hands of the officers was justified: he shot, the returned fire, he was wounded and died. Justified. How in the world is this relevant to the belief that we should remove due process for death penalty cases?





I do support our legal system, however, I also realize that it is far from perfect. It is a very unfortunate fact that there are thousands of less than moral members of the legal community out there that have so twisted our legal system that it has come to the point where it sometime seems that the criminals are more protected and have more rights than a good, law abiding citizen. That, I feel, is a shame. I do not advocate death squads or any facsimile there of, I do, however, feel that it is unfair and unjust that someone who murders another person live out their life to it's natural end, incarcerated or not. I should not have to pay to support someone who is a bane to society with the taxes taken from my hard earned money. I can think of much better things to spend the money on. Better pay, training, and equipment for law enforcement for example.

I do mourn the loss of those officers and my sympathies go out to their families in their time of mourning. But that does not mean I will put aside my anger and frustration with the person that committed the heinous act. He did it, there were witnesses who identified him. There was no question as to his guilt. In my eyes, his death at the hands of that officer was justified and only served to save the taxpayers of that city and state the time, effort, and valuable taxpayer money that would have been expended on his trial and incarceration.

[Osteomata]

RabidPony 4 PREZ!:yes:

Or in this case, Autocrat. Call me crazy but I withhold my endorsement of granting the government the power to summary execution. I find it disconcerting when people in one breath complain about the government's use of their taxes, and in the next grant the the most extraordinary power.

[RabidPony]

I'm not questioning the legal system. I'm questioning the people behind it. The greatest, most philanthropic idea in the world with always fail, not because of the ideal, but because of people. The ideals that our legal system and our laws (most of them) embody are good, and at the risk of sounding cliche again, just. But the people we trust to carry them out as they were intended, are not always as good and just. Lawyers, judges, politicians, and sadly even officers themselves do not always have the best interests of the people in mind when carrying out the letter of the law. Some of them take these good ideals and twist them and bend them to their own benefit and often to the detriment of the very people that they swore to serve and protect. Please do not confuse my disdain for these corrupt officials for a disregard of our justice system. Instead, see it as a desire to see the system run as it was meant to be, by people as good and just as the laws they are sworn to uphold.

As far as me believing that criminals should be disposed of rather than coddled, yes, it's harsh. It is a rather extreme idea and frankly one that even I would not put forth as evan a proposed policy. I do feel though that it is unfair to force hard working people who work for their money and pay their taxes to pay to care for these criminals. Even if we only took the worst of the worst, career criminals who have been convicted again and again, people who know nothing but violence, killers who have no chance of redemption and not even the faintest illusion of innocence. Even if we took only those and did away with them once and for all. It would free up a lot of resources that could be much better used. Don't even get me started on these people who sit on death row for 20, 30, 40, plus years and never receive their punishment.

Take my words for what they are. My beliefs and opinions. Nothing more, nothing less. Though they may differ from yours I would ask that you respect them as such as I do yours. Now, let's let this thread get back to what it was intended for and if you wish to discuss this further then feel free to PM me. I came here to learn about my VehiCROSS, not publicly air my political views.


Or in this case, Autocrat. Call me crazy but I withhold my endorsement of granting the government the power to summary execution. I find it disconcerting when people in one breath complain about the government's use of their taxes, and in the next grant the the most extraordinary power.

And in regards to this, I have no desire or aspirations what-so-ever to any position of power and I certainly don't advocate anyone, let alone the government, having the power of summary execution. I just feel that if someone is beyond redemption, why wast the time, effort, and resources to lock them in a cell and let them live out their life? You get convicted, you get one appeal, then you serve your sentence. If it's a death sentence, they are put to death and not put in jail for another 20 plus years before the sentence is carried out. And I think a life sentence, especially life without parole, is just counterproductive. Do away with the life without parole option and just make it a bit more difficult to attain the death penalty. Just if the death penalty is still called for after the appeal is settled, actually carry it out.

[Osteomata]

If you are so concerned about hijacking this thread and letting it get back to being about vehicross, then why respond? Strikes me as mighty convenient. "I shall now provide a three paragraph last word, but you should not reply because that would be dragging this out." The very strange part is that I agree with nearly every word of your first paragraph. What I don't understand is how you reconcile a perfectly rational recognition of the human frailties in our judges, lawyers, law enforcement officers etc, and simultaniously support granting them greater power, and removal of the protections built in to prevent abuses by just these people.

Why must there be only a choice between "disposed of" (nice euphemism) and "coddled"? That is a false dichotomy. Coddled in the cases of capital crimes means spending many years on death row while the judicial system follows the careful procedures of review required by our system.

And yes, your solution does indeed sound "harsh". The summary execution of all career criminals sounds a little more than just harsh. And whom do you grant the authority to decide which of them is the "worst of the worst"? Would it be the same flawed judges lawyers and police that are subject to all too human pressures that might have little to do with justice? Who decides, and how, which of those in our prisons have "no chance at redemption"?

Like I said, there are a lot of things I don't want my taxes spent on. Due process for our citizens, particularly those with the least ability or means to defend themselves, is not one I oppose.

[pbkid]

:hj:
:tweed:

here we go again eh?

[Osteomata]

Wait, are you seriously saying that we should let this thread return to the original topic, and then you go back ten minutes later and edit your response to ADD another parapraph in defense of your opinions? Seriously?

I ask again, who will determine which of these criminals is "beyond redemption" and therefore should be subject to execution? Might it be the same flawed judges, lawyers and law enforcement officers that you mentioned in a previous post?

Your 20 year example is silly. Of course you pick the most extreme examples and highlight them as if they are the norm. The overwhelming majority of executed prisoners die at the hands of the state WELL before your arbitrary 20 year mark.

And if we do away with the life without parole and simply make the death penalty "a bit more difficult", doesn't the "a bit more difficult" part of that statement directly imply a bit more protection from abuse, i.e., more due process protection? Or should we proceed directly from trial to execution ala your original argument?


And in regards to this, I have no desire or aspirations what-so-ever to any position of power and I certainly don't advocate anyone, let alone the government, having the power of summary execution. I just feel that if someone is beyond redemption, why wast the time, effort, and resources to lock them in a cell and let them live out their life? You get convicted, you get one appeal, then you serve your sentence. If it's a death sentence, they are put to death and not put in jail for another 20 plus years before the sentence is carried out. And I think a life sentence, especially life without parole, is just counterproductive. Do away with the life without parole option and just make it a bit more difficult to attain the death penalty. Just if the death penalty is still called for after the appeal is settled, actually carry it out.

[don moore]

were is HOT WASBI JUNKY when you need him.

:work:

[circmand]

Wait, are you seriously saying that we should let this thread return to the original topic, and then you go back ten minutes later and edit your response to ADD another parapraph in defense of your opinions? Seriously?

I ask again, who will determine which of these criminals is "beyond redemption" and therefore should be subject to execution? Might it be the same flawed judges, lawyers and law enforcement officers that you mentioned in a previous post?

Your 20 year example is silly. Of course you pick the most extreme examples and highlight them as if they are the norm. The overwhelming majority of executed prisoners die at the hands of the state WELL before your arbitrary 20 year mark.

And if we do away with the life without parole and simply make the death penalty "a bit more difficult", doesn't the "a bit more difficult" part of that statement directly imply a bit more protection from abuse, i.e., more due process protection? Or should we proceed directly from trial to execution ala your original argument?

Very few state do a quick death penalty, some states do not do it at all and then 1 idiot governor can pardon murders, see this case, and see Wisconsin I beleive where he took everyone off death row so that even though the state and its process allow it 1 person corrupted it. Those people the system condemned to death now no longer face their rightful penalty and cannot have it reimposed unless they kill again. This idiot was given life in prison and then a few people say oh thats to harsh and parole him and what happens 4 more dead.

[Osteomata]

circmand,
Wisconsin has not had the death penalty for 150 years. I'm not sure what you are talking about.

And yes, the duly elected governor of a state can, in accordance with that state's constitution, pardon someone, though I know of no death row inmate awaiting execution that has ever been pardoned. What I am familiar with is governors granting stays of execution for evidentiary or procedural issues, or possibly commuting a sentence, say from death to life in prison. So again, I am not sure which governor execution pardons you are thinking of.

[circmand]

circmand,
Wisconsin has not had the death penalty for 150 years. I'm not sure what you are talking about.

And yes, the duly elected governor of a state can, in accordance with that state's constitution, pardon someone, though I know of no death row inmate awaiting execution that has ever been pardoned. What I am familiar with is governors granting stays of execution for evidentiary or procedural issues, or possibly commuting a sentence, say from death to life in prison. So again, I am not sure which governor execution pardons you are thinking of.

It was Illinois where 1 governor stopped the legally instituted death penalty for all on death row. As for Wisconsin after 150 years they are looking to make it legal again. But what I am saying is you can not trust the legal system if one person a governor who knows nothing about a case except a brief can over rule what a judge and jury decided was appropriate. This guy who murdered 4 cops was legally found guilty and sent to jail for life. Huckabee said thats too harsh let him out and now 4 cops are dead. In Illinois dozens were legally found guilty and one person the governor decided the legal system was wrong and commited their death penalty sentence. Remember Willie Horton a vicious murdered set free by the governor Mike Dukakis who was out for a short time and murdered again. I may be more willing to give up the death penalty if these people who get life sentences actually never got out but it seems they end up being paroled in a few short years and kill again. One thing is sure no one who was ever given the death penalty ever murdered again while many who got life sentences have.

[Osteomata]

Well at least you have your state right now. Illinois Governor Ryan placed, in effect, a moratorium on executions via a commution order after 18 death row inmates were exonerated. I want to say that again: later evidence exonerated 18 death row inmates. A mixture of perjured testimony, often jail house informants trading false testimony for preferential treatment by wardens and prosecutors, or prosecutorial or law enforcement tunnel vision, or evidence errors, lead 18 people to death row in Illinois alone, by mistake, including a former Chicago cop. This situation caused the governor to believe that the system in his state, as currently constructed, was deeply flawed. He took what he believed to be the most prudent and moral action, effectively suspending the death penalty until such a time as the Illinois legislature and law enforcment community fixed the system that allowed them to put 18 people on death row by mistake.

Yes, it turns out Huckabee's decision had terrible consequences. Circmand, do you even know what he was convicted of and how much of a sentence he received that Huckabee chose to commute? It was burglery and assault (fist, no weapon). The sentence was 108 years. It was his first incarceration. He was 17. Are you telling me that all underage burglers should receive life sentences? Or just the ones that your perfect knowledge of the future allows you to see will turn into cop killers? Because the rest of us, including governors, are not blessed with such phenominal powers of future vision.

[circmand]

Well at least you have your state right now. Illinois Governor Ryan placed, in effect, a moratorium on executions via a commution order after 18 death row inmates were exonerated. I want to say that again: later evidence exonerated 18 death row inmates. A mixture of perjured testimony, often jail house informants trading false testimony for preferential treatment by wardens and prosecutors, or prosecutorial or law enforcement tunnel vision, or evidence errors, lead 18 people to death row in Illinois alone, by mistake, including a former Chicago cop. This situation caused the governor to believe that the system in his state, as currently constructed, was deeply flawed. He took what he believed to be the most prudent and moral action, effectively suspending the death penalty until such a time as the Illinois legislature and law enforcment community fixed the system that allowed them to put 18 people on death row by mistake.

Yes, it turns out Huckabee's decision had terrible consequences. Circmand, do you even know what he was convicted of and how much of a sentence he received that Huckabee chose to commute? It was burglery and assault (fist, no weapon). The sentence was 108 years. It was his first incarceration. He was 17. Are you telling me that all underage burglers should receive life sentences? Or just the ones that your perfect knowledge of the future allows you to see will turn into cop killers? Because the rest of us, including governors, are not blessed with such phenominal powers of future vision.

You would let him out here is some of his record

Clemmons has a violent, erratic past, and authorities in Washington state and Arkansas — where then-Gov. Mike Huckabee in 2000 commuted his 108-year prison sentence for armed robbery and other offenses — are facing tough questions about why an apparently violent and deranged man was out on the street.

On Sunday, six days after posting bail in Washington on charges of raping a child, Clemmons walked into the coffee shop in Parkland, Wash., a suburb a few miles south of Tacoma, and killed four uniformed Lakewood police officers as they caught up on paperwork on their laptops, police said.

Armed robbery that is weapons not fist
Raping a child hey no big deal

Yeah he should have been locked up for life after raping a child and armed robbery not walking the street murdering cops.

[Osteomata]

circmand,
I had hoped to tone down my response to you and keep it on a more conversational level, but seeing as how you have effectively accused me of siding with child rape, I find it difficult. Let's see what I can do.

I think you are knowingly and intentionally distorting what I wrote, and most certainly what I meant. A key portion of this distortion is the timeline.

What I actually wrote, as opposed to your emotional distortion of it: At the time that Hucakabee recieved the commutation request Clemmons had served 11 years in prison, was only convicted of a home burglery and an assault during the course of a purse snatching, and that he was 17 at the time of those incidents, and had been given a sentence of 108 years do to some odd idiosynchrasies in the way Arkansas law counts sentencing guidelines. Hucakabee commuted, which made Clemmons eligible for parole. The Parole Board then voted 5-0 to parole.

AFTER these incidents, and this is the key that you seem to be willfully ignoring, after these incidents, Clemmons got it more robbery related trouble, and several Arkansas and Washington State law enforcement organizations, for reasons that I strongly hope are under investigation, failed to adequetly pursue revocation of his parole. Between 2004 and 2009, for a five year period, he seemed to be clean. Then in May of this year, he went completely nuts. As in "I am the Messiah, everybody needs to get naked now" nuts. Completely off his rocker. He spiraled into violent craziness which lead, along the way to our current tragedy, to charges of child molestation.

I hope you will note the timeline here. The child rape you reference came well after Huckabee's involvement. Does this make it less tragic? Certainly not. All I have argued is that given the clemency case Hucakabee was presented, and lacking the ability to predict the future, a skill reserved mainly to you I guess, Huckabee made a decision that seemed pretty reasonable. I don't care for Huckabee much, but I have trouble blaming him for this decision.

As to his law breaking in 2001 and his later spiral into of violence: I agree, it should have resulted in revocation of his parole and further charges. His bail hearing should have examined his history. He should, indeed, have been locked up. But all of these things came later, after he had served 11 years for burglary and weaponless assault, after Huckabee granted clemency.

Now let me come back to some of the things you have implied about me:
1. You stated that I would "let him out" after he committed a slew of violent acts including child rape.
2. By extension, you implied that I don't think child rape is serious, or that I side with Clemmons in light of his later violence. "Raping a child hey no big deal"
I hope you understand, from what I have written above, that this is not at all what I believe. And I want you to know that I find your suggestion, your implication, that I believe these things disgusting. I just want you to know that.

[circmand]

circmand,
I had hoped to tone down my response to you and keep it on a more conversational level, but seeing as how you have effectively accused me of siding with child rape, I find it difficult. Let's see what I can do.

I think you are knowingly and intentionally distorting what I wrote, and most certainly what I meant. A key portion of this distortion is the timeline.

What I actually wrote, as opposed to your emotional distortion of it: At the time that Hucakabee recieved the commutation request Clemmons had served 11 years in prison, was only convicted of a home burglery and an assault during the course of a purse snatching, and that he was 17 at the time of those incidents, and had been given a sentence of 108 years do to some odd idiosynchrasies in the way Arkansas law counts sentencing guidelines. Hucakabee commuted, which made Clemmons eligible for parole. The Parole Board then voted 5-0 to parole.

AFTER these incidents, and this is the key that you seem to be willfully ignoring, after these incidents, Clemmons got it more robbery related trouble, and several Arkansas and Washington State law enforcement organizations, for reasons that I strongly hope are under investigation, failed to adequetly pursue revocation of his parole. Between 2004 and 2009, for a five year period, he seemed to be clean. Then in May of this year, he went completely nuts. As in "I am the Messiah, everybody needs to get naked now" nuts. Completely off his rocker. He spiraled into violent craziness which lead, along the way to our current tragedy, to charges of child molestation.

I hope you will note the timeline here. The child rape you reference came well after Huckabee's involvement. Does this make it less tragic? Certainly not. All I have argued is that given the clemency case Hucakabee was presented, and lacking the ability to predict the future, a skill reserved mainly to you I guess, Huckabee made a decision that seemed pretty reasonable. I don't care for Huckabee much, but I have trouble blaming him for this decision.

As to his law breaking in 2001 and his later spiral into of violence: I agree, it should have resulted in revocation of his parole and further charges. His bail hearing should have examined his history. He should, indeed, have been locked up. But all of these things came later, after he had served 11 years for burglary and weaponless assault, after Huckabee granted clemency.

Now let me come back to some of the things you have implied about me:
1. You stated that I would "let him out" after he committed a slew of violent acts including child rape.
2. By extension, you implied that I don't think child rape is serious, or that I side with Clemmons in light of his later violence. "Raping a child hey no big deal"
I hope you understand, from what I have written above, that this is not at all what I believe. And I want you to know that I find your suggestion, your implication, that I believe these things disgusting. I just want you to know that.

you wrote "Circmand, do you even know what he was convicted of and how much of a sentence he received that Huckabee chose to commute? It was burglery and assault (fist, no weapon). " you did not tone it down you insinuated that I did not know what his crime was and then stated that the crime was a purse snatching. That was wrong.

I did not put words in your mouth.

I did say you were wrong according to you his only crime at the time of his sentence was assault with his fist. His actual crimes were

To clarify matters, here's what state Correction Department spokesman Dina Tyler says the state record shows for a criminal past for Maurice Clemmons (shown in LRPD mugshot), who's being sought for questioning in the slaying of four Washington police officers. (UPDATE on earlier: Clemmons turned out not to be inside a house that officers had surrounded most of the night.)

* Sentenced to 5 years for robbery in Pulaski County, Aug. 3, 1989.

* Sentenced to 8 years for burglary, theft and probation revocation in Pulaski County, Sept. 9, 1989

* Sentenced to an indeterminate amount for aggravated robbery and theft in Pulaski County, Nov. 15, 1989

* Sentenced to 20 years each for burglary and theft of property in Pulaski County, Feb. 23, 1990.

* Sentenced to 6 years for firearm possession in Pulaski County, Nov. 19, 1990.

Tyler said some sentences were concurrent and some consecutive. But the total effect of all these sentences was a sentence of 108 years.

This is what he orginally was charged with. After his gift he got parole and raped a child while on that parole and then the people in the system allowed him bail. This is why people prefer the death penalty because the system constantly puts these guys out on the street to murder and rape again and again. If they get the death penalty and it is carried out it is a guarantee they at least will not commit another crime.

[Osteomata]

Circmand,
I did write that sentence, and it was in THAT post that I wanted to tone it, hoped to tone it down, but after readig your insinuation about my tolerance of child rape, I was unable to completely do so.

As to the crimes, I was largely correct. The crimes you list are exactly those I referred to. My failure was perhaps being loose with specific categories of crime, i.e., theft/burglery/robbery. The assault was committed with his fist, not a weapon. I did make on error, and I apologize for it, he did have a illegal firearm conviction in there too, but he did not use it in the assault.

And yes, they were all sentenced at once. 108 years for burglary and theft and assault with a fist and a seperate possession charge.

What I don't understand is why you think burglary and theft and assault committed by a juvenile should be punished by execution.

What I really don't understand is where you get your imagined powers of future vision. Because the entirety of my argument has been that given the information Huckabee had to work with, which at the time was only the crimes committed in 1989 and 1990, I have trouble faulting his decision because no one really has magical predictive powers. YOU argued against.

At no time did I suggest that the later crimes, like those committed in 2001 or the sexual assault committed this year, should be treated lightly. At no time. This did not stop you from directly implying that I did.

[circmand]

Circmand,
I did write that sentence, and it was in THAT post that I wanted to tone it, hoped to tone it down, but after readig your insinuation about my tolerance of child rape, I was unable to completely do so.

As to the crimes, I was largely correct. The crimes you list are exactly those I referred to. My failure was perhaps being loose with specific categories of crime, i.e., theft/burglery/robbery. The assault was committed with his fist, not a weapon. I did make on error, and I apologize for it, he did have a illegal firearm conviction in there too, but he did not use it in the assault.

And yes, they were all sentenced at once. 108 years for burglary and theft and assault with a fist and a seperate possession charge.

What I don't understand is why you think burglary and theft and assault committed by a juvenile should be punished by execution.

What I really don't understand is where you get your imagined powers of future vision. Because the entirety of my argument has been that given the information Huckabee had to work with, which at the time was only the crimes committed in 1989 and 1990, I have trouble faulting his decision because no one really has magical predictive powers. YOU argued against.

At no time did I suggest that the later crimes, like those committed in 2001 or the sexual assault committed this year, should be treated lightly. At no time. This did not stop you from directly implying that I did.


as listed he committed several crimes including using a weapon it was not one just one unarmed crime. The crimes were comitted over several years 79 thru 90, it was a crime spree. just one of those (Sentenced to 20 years each for burglary and theft of property in Pulaski County, Feb. 23, 1990.) was enough for 20 years. While I never said these were enough for the death penalty it was the child rape that was bad enough for it as I have stated twice now. So even if the 198 years was too severe he should at least have served the term for the worst crime. Which would have kept him in prison through 2010. But he was let out after only 11 years. Then he raped the child while on probation and was given bail so he could commit murder. You are right no one can read the future but this guy was given 3 different breaks before commiting the murders. I can read the future enough to know if he was not let out early he would not have raped the child. If we was not given bail he could not have killed the cops. So it really seems keep him locked up would have made everyone including this butcher better off.

[vt_maverick]

Geez is this still going?

[Ldub]

Geez is this still going?

As usual, it's become a "who gets the last word" contest...:rolleyesg

Nobody has changed the others mind, both sides remain steadfast in their belief, nothing has changed since a random finger made the first key stroke...:_thinking






And so it goes, & always shall.

[VXR]

As usual, it's become a "who gets the last word" contest...

Nobody has changed the others mind, both sides remain steadfast in their belief, nothing has changed since a random finger made the first key stroke...






And so it goes, & always shall.

I believe (no mater how painful on both sides) these debates are healthy for the good of all. after all is the goal to change the others mind or just get closer to the truth?

[Ldub]

I believe (no mater how painful on both sides) these debates are healthy for the good of all. after all is the goal to change the others mind or just get closer to the truth?

The truth has been out there for anyone who can read or google...or both even, since about day 1 or 2.

Rehashing it on a primarily automotive forum serves no real purpose IMO.

And gun control & the death penalty? PLEASE, how many different ways have those tired old horses been beat to death over the last....oh, lets say century?

Bet none of us can count that high...:rolleyesg

[Osteomata]

circmand,
Clearly our debate suffers from the blending of issues. You have repeatedly included events (failures by law enforcement or prosecutors in 2004 and 2009) into the argument for which I have made no defense. I have only defended the situation Hucakabee (and I am NOT a fan of the man) faced in a clemency hearing in 2000, and by extension, the power of governors to grant clemency, commute sentences, and in very special cases, grant pardons. You can continue to pretend that I somehow defend the errors made in 2004 (failure to revoke parole) and 2009 (granting bail), but I did not. You can even continue to pretend that I consider child rape a minor issue.

Back to the actual issue: The period of the crimes for which he first went to prison was 1989 to 1990, not 1979 to 1990. 18 months not 11 years. The assault did not include a weapon, you are repeatedly mistaken. I suspect that it is the seperate firearms possession that is leading you to believe this.

The molestation occured nineteen years later, or if you prefer, eight years after parole.
You repeatedly insist on including crimes that NO ONE could have predicted into the debate about Hucakabee's clemency decision, unless you believe in miraculous phychic power. Your statements on this have been consistant and either stated outright or implied as is directly possible that this incident is Huckabee's fault and he was either foolish or weak or in violation of some sort of ill-defined will of the people or the law. And you have provided no information that changes the actual facts in the incident: He had a juvenile defendent, with crimes limited to burglery, robbery, non-weapon assault, and an earlier possession charge. He had served 11 years of a 108 sentence. The sentence was in excess of the average for first incarceration for these types of crimes. He was recommended for clemency, Huckabee granted it, which only made him eliglible for, but not guaranteed parole . The parole board voted 5-0 to grant parole.

And I think the part that gets me the most, is you want to make this case the standard by which all sentences are judged. That we must pretend like every parolee is a likely child molester and cop killer, so no one can be granted parole. We already have the highest percentage of our populatin in prison in the world. How much higher would you like it to go?

[Ldub]

OK, now he's got the last word...next?...:rolleyesg

Couldn't you two accomplish the same futile goal by emailing each other?

Many of the rest of us don't feel the need for any further enlightenment.

[circmand]

No matter how clearly I make my point you still seem to not understand it or change what I say to make your point valid.
* The original most serious of the several crimes commited was good enough for 20 years. So while 108 years was too severe 11 years the time he served was not severe enough.
* Commuting his sentence allowed him to get out in 11 years Mistake One and yes no one could know a violent felon would commit another crime despite the fact it almost always happens.
*while on parole he rapes a child. He is given bail instead of incarceration Mistake two. Who could predict a violent felon who is on parole who rapes a child might commit another crime? I think by now most people can predict the answer to this.
* This violent felon murders 4 police officers and goes on the lam. Friends and family assist in helping him. he is finnaly gunned down in an arrest. wow a cop killer gunned down by police who could predict that. Huge sums of money spent in the man hunt who could predict that?

So since we cant read the future we ask ourselves was the proper decision made by the one person who was allowed to over rule a jury and a judge? Well the one made allowed a violent and deragnged criminal who had 6 arrests on his record to be freed before he spent 11% of his sentence in prison, he raped a child and murdered 4 people. Had the decision been to keep him in jail would any of this have happened? No!

So since we can not read the future we have to chose from two different methods. One protects the felon and allows him out and one that protects society and keeps him in prison. You would put society at risk I would put the criminal in jail. Given that the felon was shot to death even he would be better off still alive and in prison that shot dead by police and having 8 of his friends and relatives going to prison for aiding and abeting his escape. Frankly I do not see anyone better off in the methos you prefer we use please show me who is better off by us releasing violent felons who statistics show have a very high rate of recidivism.

[ZubrAZ]

for me, as an immigrant in particular, and yonger fella than most of you are, it is kind of interesting to read live discussions with some history insights. also, their opinions are logically sound, at least to me.

I would even ask them to continue. the truth born in debates (c)

[Ldub]

for me, as an immigrant in particular, and yonger fella than most of you are, it is kind of interesting to read live discussions with some history insights. also, their opinions are logically sound, at least to me.

I would even ask them to continue. the truth born in debates (c)

Then you will L:heart:VE this...:yes:

A site specifically made for the debate of all recent political topics...who'd a thunk it?...:_thinking...:_confused

With an even LONGER thread on this specific topic...:rolleyesg

http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaking-news/61182-cop-killer-pardoned-life-sentence-mike-huckabee-9-years-ago.html

So far...28 pages, 279 posts...all leading to the exact same end...:slap:...:argue:...:bla:

Same vBulletin format, so y'all will feel right at home...:smilewink

This is my personal favorite...http://www.debatepolitics.com/news-weird/

AND...they've got a really sweet arcade section, with lotsa swell games to play...:dance:...:yesgray:



Happy Reading...:yesgray:

[vt_maverick]

It's Friday! A little humor to lighten the thread...

http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/images/LiberalSecondAmendment.jpg

http://www.tbeckett.net/images/control_comic.jpg

http://www.survivalarts.com/images/gun_control_is_racist.jpg

http://slightlyunstable.org/files/guns.png

http://www.slowpokecomics.com/strips/camping.gif

http://www.thismodernworld.org/arc/1995/95-01-18-Gun-control.gif

[Ldub]

It's Friday! A little humor to lighten the thread...
:thanx:...:thumbup:...:laughing:...:thumbup:... :thanx:

[Osteomata]

LDub,
I see your points, and acknowledge nearly every aspect of it. But this is chitchat, and though harsh at times, we are having an ongoing discussion. And does it really bother you to simply know of the existance of a thread with this material in it? Its not like we are making you read it. (I don't know how to word that without it sounding rude, please take it as not intended to sound rude.)

[Ldub]

LDub,
I see your points, and acknowledge nearly every aspect of it. But this is chitchat, and though harsh at times, we are having an ongoing discussion. And does it really bother you to simply know of the existance of a thread with this material in it? Its not like we are making you read it. (I don't know how to word that without it sounding rude, please take it as not intended to sound rude.)

Doesn't bother me in the least...I just don't see the point...especially when I've so graciously provided you a more appropriate sandbox to bury your turds in...:yesgray:

[Osteomata]

Circmand,

I really don't think you are discussiong this in good faith. Even though I have said half a dozen times that I am only talking about the original decision, and by extension governors powers in this area, you keep brining in the later crimes as if they are predictable. "wow a cop killer gunned down by police who could predict that. Huge sums of money spent in the man hunt who could predict that?" You know perfectly well that I am talking abou the predictive ability from 2000, when there was no evidence that he was an insane wannabee child molester/cop-killer. Both of your sarcastic predictions were predicated on us already knowing that he had gone off the rails and murdered four cops, and then predicting that he would die in a shoot out. Not at all the same subject.

Also, the six arrests were actually, I believe, two, mabye three with multiple charges included, all addressed in one court appearance, one conviction, one sentence. I believe what happened is that his arrest for one of the burgleries/thefts lead to evidence of the other crimes, allowing the police to charge him for those as well.

Doesn't matter what it really comes down to is this, and I am honestly trying to capture your true argument/position rather than a bad faith distortion of it, so correct me if I am wrong.. Scratch, that, let me just ask you out right if this is your opinion:
- There should be no power of governors or other officials to grant clemency, commute sentences, or grant pardons.
- There should be no such thing as parole, i.e., conditional monitored release before the end of an assigned sentence.
- There should be no such thing as early release for whatever reason the various states have instituted it.
- The percent of our population in prison, higher than any other country in the world, should actually be higher, as all parolees and commuted sentence convicts should still be incarcerated until the end of their maximum sentence. (I fully admit this is a loaded statement which I worded this way just to illustrate the effect of the first three statements)

And from our other discussion before we focused on Clemmons:
- You do not believe that the governor of a state should have the power to stop executions pending review and improvement of the process, even if 18 death row inmates in his state have been exonerated.

[Moncha]

Even with a few complaints received, this thread will remain open, it's in the appropriate location so, no problem with that.

Although the OP was merely pointing out the tragedy of what happened, I knew this would spark, at the least, a minor debate. I am impressed, for the conduct has remained civil. Remember the RULES (http://www.vehicross.info/modules.php?name=FAQ&op=viewcategory&cid=5) and it shall remain open.

[VXR]

Huckabee does have a disturbing record of granting clemency. As I stated before this is not the first person he let out that later killed someone (and maybe not the last).

Huckabee also pressured the parole board to free Wayne DuMond, who was serving time for raping a high school student. They paroled him on the condition that he leave Arkansas. He moved to neighboring Missouri, where he raped and murdered Carol Sue Shields.

In all, he issued 1,033 pardons and commutations during more than 10 years as governor an average of about one every four days.

I think one good thing has already come from this. At the very least (although maybe for only a short time) I believe any governor who wants to continue and/or further their political career will learn from this and think twice before granting any clemency.

[Osteomata]

I had forgotten about the Dumond case, VXR. I seem to recall one of the crucial aspects of that case being the question, as you have highlighted, of Huckabee's possibly applying inappropriate pressure to the parole board. I believe that incident is still highly contentious, with pretty good evidence supporting the accusation, but a lot of it possibly tainted by political payback and CYA.

Let me ask you a question: Given that you view as a good thing the idea that governors will significantly role back there clemency/pardon/commutation/etc decisions as a result of this incident, how do you arrrive at this "one good thing" assessment? What I mean is, how do you measure the benefits versus the downside? I assume you see the benefit as "a certain portion of these parolees/commutees/clemency cases would have reverted and committed horrible crimes, so we have prevented that happening." But given that the purpose of all these gubernatorial decisions is to even out discrepencies in sentencing between district courts, to compensate for those wierd legal situations where the idiosynchracies of the law allowed a transgression of a certain level to be punished at a much higher level, where an apparant overreach of the prosecutor appears to have resulted in overpunishment, or possilby where a convict has demonstrated extraordinary potential, how do you measure the benefit of that? Its much easier to point to a couple of cases where the worst happened and say "I told you so." Its much harder to point to the numerous cases where nothing bad happened at all and say "see the system worked, this person became a productive citezen" That just doesnt make headlines.

I guess what I'm asking is, do the thousands of cases where the clemancy "worked", (which I define as a non-recidivist case) matter? Or should we only concern ourselves with the demonstrated worst outcomes (Clemmons, Dumond), and based on those assume the worst in all of them? If there is a reasonable possibility of actual rehabilitation, rather than merely retribution for the crime, should that be considered?

[VXR]

I never stated there should never be any clemency, pardons, or commutations. I just wanted to point out that it can be overdone as I believe it was in the case of Huckabee.

We only know of these two cases because they killed people. It would be interesting to know how many of the 1,033 did re-offend to a lesser degree and/or did not get caught.

So yes I think governors thinking twice or being extra careful when making these decisions is a good thing.

[circmand]

The rules are set. People get there day in court. A ton of tax payer money is spent for the trial even more for an attorney for one who cant afford one. A jury who has heard all the evidence decides guilt ajudge who heard the case decides sentence. Then after all this is done a Governor who knows nothing about the case can over rule it. Or in the case of Clinton anyone who can come up with a million or two can get a pardon even if they did not serve one day of their sentence.

On top of that we coddle them in prison. Meals that are not only 3 a day but Kosher or other dietary specials. Yeah if they are so religous why were they out committing crimes? Required AC and exercise time.

[Ldub]

Here we go again...:laughing:

At least y'all have the good sense to take weekends off.

[circmand]

you still continue to read it.

[vt_maverick]

[And yet] you still continue to read it.

... while hoping to see "THE END." :p

J/k, have fun guys.

[Ldub]

you still continue to read it.

At this point, it's become it's own car wreck.

You don't want to look, yet feel strangely compelled...:smilewink

[tom4bren]

At this point, it's become it's own car wreck.

You don't want to look, yet feel strangely compelled...:smilewink

sorta like anytime Dumke posts a new pic. Afraid to look ... jest can't hep yersef.

[handeeman]

At this point, it's become it's own car wreck.

You don't want to look, yet feel strangely compelled...:smilewink

Boy, not me. I alway keep my eyes closed till I feel the impact and hear glass breaking. My DD is a 08 F-350 lifted 6", my last incidents were with "Smart" cars. However, I will say I did feel compelled to look in my rear view mirror.

[Anita]

sorta like anytime Dumke posts a new pic. Afraid to look ... jest can't hep yersef.

WHERE is there a new pic??? :bgwo:

[Triathlete]

Required AC and exercise time.

Not in Maricopa County! :bwgy:

[circmand]

and pink jump suits to boot

Go Sheriff Joe

[Moncha]

Sheriff Joe = My hero!!!

[VX KAT]

Sheriff Joe = My hero!!!
x1000! There's "talk" on TV last week that he may run for Gov, but he didn't confirm it or deny it....sounds like a yes to me! Run Joe Run!...no wait, he may do more good as Sheriff.......I'm so conflicted!...didn't DiNero say that in Analyze This?

[rowhard]

I hope you don't mind, but I thought I would post a link to the Tacoma News Tribune of the Police Memorial that will take place at the Tacoma Dome.

Many retailers in surrounding communitys have been collection contributions to the Lakewood Fallen Hero's Fund. Some are donating 100% of their profits from today to it.

For those of you that would like to read it: http://www.thenewstribune.com/topstory/story/983539.html (http://www.thenewstribune.com/topstory/story/983539.html:sado:)

A very sad day for all of us:sado:

[vt_maverick]

I'm wary of these tough, bad-*** Sheriff types since Sheriff Hage in North Carolina was exposed as a crook. He was the original pink-jumpsuit, harsh treatment guy, but turns out he was more interested in his own glory than in really doing good.

Do a search on Hage and you'll see what I mean. Voter beware.

[circmand]

I'm wary of these tough, bad-*** Sheriff types since Sheriff Hage in North Carolina was exposed as a crook. He was the original pink-jumpsuit, harsh treatment guy, but turns out he was more interested in his own glory than in really doing good.

Do a search on Hage and you'll see what I mean. Voter beware.

got nothing on him just Wikipedia, insurance, real estate and such a link would give the info easier. I have no problem with a sheriff getting credit for doing a good job and I take it with a grain of salt when the ACLU or other people with an agenda that consists of coddling as opposed to punishment. We have senior citizens losing their homes schools that cant buy modern text books but convicts with AC color TV modern exercise equipment etc. I say bring back the road gangs.

[rowhard]

Well, as usual, the thread has gotten off track. For those of you still interested in the 4 Lakewood Police Officers that were gunned down while having a cup of coffee and doing some paperwork, here is a link to the Police Memorial Procession that took place today. http://www.komonews.com/

[Ldub]

Well, as usual, the thread has gotten off track. For those of you still interested in the 4 Lakewood Police Officers that were gunned down while having a cup of coffee and doing some paperwork, here is a link to the Police Memorial Procession that took place today. http://www.komonews.com/

Thank You for posting the link John, very sad & touching.

Godspeed fallen Heros.

[vt_maverick]

circ - My bad, I misspelled his name. Here's a good synopsis:

http://www.ftpress.com/articles/article.aspx?p=440159

I'll think you'll find that he was guilty of a lot more than upsetting the ACLU.

[Moncha]

http://www.parksidepolice.com/images/6181.jpg

[rowhard]

Thank You for posting the link John, very sad & touching.

Godspeed fallen Heros.

Yes, it was very sad and touching. 1000 Canadian Mounted Police, that was something to see plus the thousand's of other officers from around the country. Quite a brotherhood you belong to bossman

[don moore]

http://www.parksidepolice.com/images/6181.jpg
X2
God Bless

[VX KAT]

http://www.parksidepolice.com/images/6181.jpg
:cyro::sado:

[Moncha]

Yes, it was very sad and touching. 1000 Canadian Mounted Police, that was something to see plus the thousand's of other officers from around the country. Quite a brotherhood you belong to bossman

Most will say, "It's just a job".
Everyday that I can come home to my family safely, is another day's job well done.

[Mile High VX]

Most will say, "It's just a job".
Everyday that I can come home to my family safely, is another day's job well done.

Amen.

[pbkid]

Most will say, "It's just a job".
Everyday that I can come home to my family safely, is another day's job well done.

:thumbup:
its amazing how many people i know that cant wrap their heads around why i would wanna be a police officer.