My maxed out suspension lift :)

[LittleBeast]

So I decided to be productive on my day off after our indoor conference track meet this last weekend in South Dakota, so I changed the oil + oil filter, then I fixed the EGR Valves threaded nut that had worked itself off and was making a exhaust leak sound, then I decided to grease all the sway bar bushings and u-joints and then I remembered that I had ordered a set of Independent4x's 2" Coil Spacers, and I thought, hmmm I wonder what that would look like, and I needed to rotate my tires anyways, and install a new ABS sensor on the rear, so.....

Haha, well I already have the larger OME 912 springs in the rear and the torsion bar crank on the front giving the VX a ligit 2-1/2" lift and with the 2" spacers it is now pretty much a 4" susension lift and this I think is as high of a suspension lift that we can do without a lot more work. I had to have my roommate come out and press down on the axle which I had taken the shock and the swaybar off of and I was compressing the spring as hard as I can applying probably about 250lbs of force or so and then it slammed into place and I am not quite sure if I could even get them off at this point ;) Haha, so I better like it.....

I had about 7 to 7-1/2 inches of space between tire and wheel well with just the OME 912 springs:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_006.jpg

Here is a side to side of the Independent 4x 2" spacer on the left and the stock srping retainer on the right that it replaces:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_009.jpg

I now have about 8-1/2 inches of space between tire and wheel well with the OME 912 springs and 2" spacers:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_005.jpg

Left side has 2" spacer, right side does not yet:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_003.jpg

Left side has 912 spring and 2" spacer, right side just 912 spring:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_004.jpg

Results:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_013.jpg

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_012.jpg

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_016.jpg

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_011.jpg

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_010.jpg

Space between wheel well and tire now:

FL: 7-1/4" FR: 7"
RL: 8-1/2" RR: 8-1/2"

I think I might level it out just a little and now I am almost ready for some 35" tires :)

Before and after pictures, although I don't think this is a fair comparison because the before pics are all clean and shiny and the after pics are dirty and rainy, but I think you will get the feel for it. I always felt like the rear was a little squaty and now it is aggresive:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/10-20-08_057.jpg
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_011.jpg

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/10-20-08_067.jpg
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_012.jpg

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/10-20-08_045.jpg
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_016.jpg

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/10-20-08_077.jpg
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3258/3-1-10_013.jpg

[Ldub]

http://sirenschronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/cowbell.jpg

Or some 35" rubber...:yes:

Looks MEAN Ryan...:thumbup:

[alterastro]

Looks Ace!

How do you get it sitting so level? I have the 912's and mine has a slightly nose down stance- I thought I'd cranked the torsion bars as much as I dared, but you must have done them a lot more?!?!

Where can I get me some of them spacers? :bwgy:

Did you have any problems with brake pipes or shock travel etc?

Cheers

Nick

[Ldub]

I had to have my roommate come out and press down on the axle which I had taken the shock and the swaybar off of and I was compressing the spring as hard as I can applying probably about 250lbs of force or so and then it slammed into place and I am not quite sure if I could even get them off at this point ;) Haha, so I better like it.....

Tools are your friend...:yesgray: :_wrench:

15 buck$ & your problem is solved...:smilewink

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=3980

[Ldub]

Looks Ace!

How do you get it sitting so level? I have the 912's and mine has a slightly nose down stance- I thought I'd cranked the torsion bars as much as I dared, but you must have done them a lot more?!?!

Where can I get me some of them spacers? :bwgy:

Did you have any problems with brake pipes or shock travel etc?

Cheers

Nick

Ryan has his front diff dropped 2", which helps with the CV angles.

Coil spacers & lengthened stainless braid brake lines are available from www.independent4x.com

https://www.independent4x.com/merchantmanager/product_info.php?cPath=135_136&products_id=295

https://www.independent4x.com/merchantmanager/product_info.php?products_id=525

https://www.independent4x.com/merchantmanager/product_info.php?products_id=34

Shocks I'm not 100% sure about, but I'm gonna find out very soon...:naughty:

[crotchrocket]

Looks good!

I have mine raised 14 turns on the front (about 3", maybe more) and developed a nasty grind in the CV joint on tight turns in 4WD so i need to let it back down again, diff drop is a good idea but counter productive in trying to get ground clearance for me as im not going larger on the tyres any time soon.

[VehiX]

You should get some weather tech rain guards for the windows. Looks nice :)

http://www.weathertech.com/store/mvproduct.aspx?ItemGroupId=4&VehId=308&Year=1999

[samneil2000]

Dangit Ryan, at this rate I'll never catch up with the LB machine...

Looks awesome! Did you have to creank the t-bars any more or is that still the same from your initial lift?

Only problem is the rear axle is creeping too far forward. Ldub and I were talking about that the other day. Gonna need some longer links to center the wheel in the well to get maximum clearance.

[Viatcheslav]

What about a noise from joint? I lifted my VX aprox 2" and have bad noise betwen 100 and 120 km/h.

[WormGod]

Nice, but I HATE wheel well. Get some more rubber in there to cover those eye-sores. ;)

[Y33TREKker]

So do you now have to get clearance from the tower before entering local airspace? ;Do;

Looks pretty awesome LB.

[taylorRichie]

Looks great...

Could definitely use some more rubber though :D

So you installed new CV drop brackets, and now you're back to a full torsion crank ??

I'm looking forward to doing mine!

[tom4bren]

Nice Ryan - lookin good - now if you would just get some rims with the PROPER offset.:)

[Mile High VX]

Mighty fine sir...:bwgy::smilewink:bgwo::bgwb:

[nfpgasmask]

Yes....I like....

:thumbup: Bart

[tom4bren]

Looks great...

Could definitely use some more rubber though :D

So you installed new CV drop brackets, and now you're back to a full torsion crank ??

I'm looking forward to doing mine!

The brackets just drop the differential. They don't effect the suspension at all.

[VXorado]

Nicely done, I have a similar idea once I get those diff drop brackets installed (which isn't happening any time soon).

You gotta get 35s now!!

[LittleBeast]

How do you get it sitting so level? I have the 912's and mine has a slightly nose down stance

Where can I get me some of them spacers? :bwgy:

Did you have any problems with brake pipes or shock travel etc?


Torsion bars are cranked quite a bit, and I have the diff drop which helps CV angles.

As Larry said the spacers are available at Independent4x , as for brake lines, yes I have the steel braided extended brake line kit from Independent4x or I could not have done this at all. Shock travel is limiting my down travel right now by about 4-5" right now, and since I already extended my bumpstops on the rear I will be considering some new shocks in the rear possibly.


Tools are your friend...:yesgray: :_wrench:

15 buck$ & your problem is solved...:smilewink

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=3980

Haha, that would makes things easier, what is the fun in that? Yeah if I have to remove them I will pick that up :)


I have mine raised 14 turns on the front (about 3", maybe more) and developed a nasty grind in the CV joint on tight turns in 4WD so i need to let it back down again, diff drop is a good idea but counter productive in trying to get ground clearance for me as im not going larger on the tyres any time soon.

I thought the same thing about the diff drop loosing ground clearance and all, but really you are not loosing any ground clearance if you modify the cross member. I just chose to put the cross member extension brackets on there until I decide on a local welder to do the mod to the cross member so I won't loose any ground clearance at all.


Did you have to creank the t-bars any more or is that still the same from your initial lift?

Only problem is the rear axle is creeping too far forward. Ldub and I were talking about that the other day. Gonna need some longer links to center the wheel in the well to get maximum clearance.

I did not do anything to the torsion bars this time around, still the same from the initial lift.

I was thinking the same thing and already started a thread about the options for moving the rear axle back just a little:
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=17430


What about a noise from joint? I lifted my VX aprox 2" and have bad noise betwen 100 and 120 km/h.

As has been discussed before a lot of these weird noises can be addressed. Mine has gone away as the tires wear more even and I played around with driveline angles by playing around with the torsion bar crank. Seems that we need a little tilt forward with the rear slightly higher than the front to get rid of the whine. Mine has gone away over time.


Nice, but I HATE wheel well. Get some more rubber in there to cover those eye-sores. ;)

They are coming soon, I am trying to find something I like that is around 35" x 13.5" or so.


So you installed new CV drop brackets, and now you're back to a full torsion crank ??

I don't know about "full" I still have some room to go up, and I could always just reindex them, but yeah I have the CV drop brackets and a pretty mean torsion crank on the front to go along with the 4.77 gears.


So do you now have to get clearance from the tower before entering local airspace?

Actually now my antenna hits the garage on the way out, I still haven't gotten used to that :( Also it is slightly taller to get into now, and I cannot see out of the back window as nicely as I used to, but my modified higher rear view mirror mount still is helping with that. Also braking seems more responsive for some odd reason, and it seems to take speed bumps better now.

[pbkid]

hey, if you decide you want someone to take those terra-grapplers off your hands you can send em out here to colorado ;)

just playing- ride looks great!

[AlaskaVX]

I will pray for your CV's if you pray for mine LOL. :bgwo:

I have the OME 912's, 1" spring spacers, 1.5" drop brackets, 33" tires and I can't keep a CV around for more than 6 months. :mady2: I think I am going to end up dropping the diff another 1". The ground clearance up front is still WAY more than enough when you consider your rear axle has to go over whatever your front did.

[Marlin]

Hmmm, I must be lucky. I cranked the torsion bar as far as I could without reindexing the bolts. I have the 919s in the rear. Been 1 year, I have wheeled it and mudded it, original CVs and boots as far as I can tell. No problems so far!!!! (Fingers crossed)

[Ascinder]

To answer some questions or confusion earlier in this thread, you don't have to crank the piss out of your torsion bars to lift your VX. You can re-index the bars so they don't get overstressed from being cranked on. You simply uncrank the bars with the VX supported on jackstands, counting the turns it takes until they are unloaded. Then you remove the bolts on the brackets holding the bars to the A-arms. This is a good time to index mark both the side of the brackets and torsion bars for later so you have a reference. You then pull the torsion bars to the rear and allow the A-arms to come down to the position you want them to sit at for your desired tires/ride height. Remove the brackets from the bars and count how many splines you have to rotate them in order to line up again with the holes on the A-arms. You reinstall everything and let the VX down from the stands. It will likely squat onto the tires, or the tires will be close to the wheel well, this is when you start cranking for your desired springiness and stiffness. Another thing to remember while you're doing all this is that the thinner (lower profile) bumpstops you put in, the lower your A-arms can droop, and as a result, the higher your VX can be lifted. The bumpstops for the front are under the upper A-arm. Doing this indexing mod will place less stress on your torsion bars making them last longer, retain their springiness longer and keep your ride height correct longer. It will also reduce the shock loads from suspension cycling offroad so you don't break them while wheeling.

[Ldub]

To answer some questions or confusion earlier in this thread, you don't have to crank the piss out of your torsion bars to lift your VX. You can re-index the bars so they don't get overstressed from being cranked on. Doing this indexing mod will place less stress on your torsion bars making them last longer, retain their springiness longer and keep your ride height correct longer. It will also reduce the shock loads from suspension cycling offroad so you don't break them while wheeling.

I've got a question on your theory Bro...:confused:
Isn't the same amount of torsional force required to lift the same load?
Maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong perspective, but it seems to me that no matter where the torsion bar is indexed, you're gonna have to apply the same amount of torsional force (twist) to lift the weight.
Granted, you will have more threads to work with on the adjusters after re-indexing, but that's not changing the force required to lift the same amount of weight.
Just thinkin' out loud, not tryin' to pick on ya...:smilewink...:flower:

[Ascinder]

Yes, the required force(tension) in this case placed on the bars is the same. The only difference is that when people lift their vx's they usually just crank the bars harder which as we all know puts more stress on them. They are still supporting the same weight, they are just lifting it higher in this case by putting more of a "load" on the bars. When you re-index, it's like putting the load on your bars back to stock. The bars are supporting the same weight again, but they aren't under the same tension as if you just added a bunch of cranks to them, it's closer to or equal to stock tension. Hope this clears up the reasons for re-indexing.

[vt_maverick]

I knew I should have payed more attention in physics class...

[tom4bren]

I knew I should have payed more attention in physics class...

I'm trying to give Ascinder the benefit of the doubt but I'm kinda leaning towards Mr. Dub's viewpoint at the moment.

[VX1032]

Only problem is the rear axle is creeping too far forward. Ldub and I were talking about that the other day. Gonna need some longer links to center the wheel in the well to get maximum clearance.

As he said, any bigger tire is going to hit the front of that wheel well under compression. Need to call Indy4X and get a set of longer rear links made up.

[Ldub]

Sorry Beau, but I just can't get past the fact that the same amount of force is required to lift the same amount of weight to the same height. It shouldn't matter if the bar ends are in position "A" or position "B"...:_thinking

[LittleBeast]

As he said, any bigger tire is going to hit the front of that wheel well under compression. Need to call Indy4X and get a set of longer rear links made up.

I was thinking the same thing and already started a thread about the options for moving the rear axle back just a little:
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=17430

Indy already makes adjustable links, and I think they might do the trick. I do not want it to be too much different, juts a little bit farther back in the wheel well so that it won't hit the gas tank or the back side cladding on compression, and still line up with the factory spring placement on the top side.

Update: I just got the phone with the guys at Indy4x and YES if you want to change your wheel base by up to 3" you would just want to buy the rear adjustable upper link ($220) and rear lower adjustable links ($460), actually they have over 4" of adjustment, but he said you would not want to adjust over 3", I am thinking I only need about 1-1/2" or 2" anyways. This will in fact push the rear tires back in the rear wheel well, and you can also adjust your pinion angle which is basically where your rear diff is pointing and thus how much of an angle your u-joints on your axle have to handle. I look forward to this mod soon. Under $700 to move your rear tires and better align your rear diff to axle. I can't wait :)

[So-CalVX]

And here I just bought the OME912 springs and saw the 2" spacers so I bought them too thinking I could just throw them in the bee and crank the bars to get a nice lift... Am I wrong? Do I need the diff drop brackets, longer bump stops and new longer shocks to go with this (supposed 5") lift I purchased?
And if I left anything else out I would need feel free to clue me in... :confused:

By the way LB.... DAAAAMN! I luv the look... Ebony would have been acceptable (and is my second color choice on the VX) had the bee not been yellow. Ur VX is crazy

[Ascinder]

Sorry Beau, but I just can't get past the fact that the same amount of force is required to lift the same amount of weight to the same height. It shouldn't matter if the bar ends are in position "A" or position "B"...

Ok, I'll break it down into simplest terms. I'm going to just use arbitrary numbers and angles, so don't take anything for gospel.

-1: On a stock VX lets just say the torsion bars are cranked 20 cranks from the factory. We all know the VX rides, behaves, and was in fact designed for this amount of torsion in the rods. Lets also say that this amount of torsion gives you 3" of clearance at the wheel well and that the A-arms are deflected 15 degrees downwards. The VX is no doubt supported by this amount of torsion in the system.

-2: On a typical lifted VX lets say it takes 3-4 cranks(turns) to gain each extra inch of clearance between the tire and wheelwell. I've heard numbers all over the place, but usually people crank about 14-15 cranks to get about 3 additional inches of clearance which now brings the total to 6". The A-arms are now at 30 degrees downward lets say since they are what is moving to provide you with that lift. The torsion bar is still supporting the same weight of the VX, but now it is under more tension because you are in effect loading up a spring. Everyone notices this in the stiffer handling of your VX. It's like winding up a catapult. We can all agree that if you keep cranking on your torsion bars, it puts more stress on them the more you crank until they eventually snap.

-3: On a reindexed lifted VX, you are unloading the bars so they are not supporting any vehicle weight. You are then basically pre-positioning your 30 degrees of lift and 6" total clearance into your A-arms. Keep in mind the VX is still not being supported by the suspension at this time. When you put the torsion bar splines back into the A-arms, they aren't under any load yet and if you let the VX down, your tires would push themselves up towards the wheelwells. Here's where the trick comes in. We know from my first statement here that the factory cranked the bars 20 turns to get your VX to ride and behave like they designed. You only have to put those 20 turns back in and it will support the weight and handling of the vehicle. That's the difference. You just don't have the extra cranks in the system so the torsion bars aren't working as hard to put you at the right height. Your 6" of lift is still there since you had already moved the A-ams into place beforehand. The trick with reindexing is that you technically aren't cranking your torsion bars to provide any lift you are just repositioning your A-arms to the lifted angle and using the torsion bars to support your VX as intended.

-4: In cases of extreme lift like mine, I did both. I indexed the bars to gain most of my lift, then cranked the piss out of them to give me even more until I was almost riding on the bumpstops underneath. CVs do not like this by the way. The extreme angles they end up with inevitably tear the boots because as the A-arms move down more, they also move inwards. This pushes the CV cages into the cups and makes them ride where they werent supposed to. It also further compresses the boots on their bottoms and pulls them at their tops(referring to the inners, outers will be reverse). When you keep in mind that the boots are rotating at high speeds, and that the rubber is compressing/getting pulled in each revolution, you can see why lifted rigs tear boots. The same stresses are being applied to the cages and balls within the CV cups. That's another reason lifted rigs should watch their CVs.


Hope things are as clear as dirty water now instead of just clear as mud:bwgy:

[ZEUS]

Hmm... I dunno about all that - I understand the theory but disagree with the terms. The alteration in height is simply a change in suspension geometry. Whether reindexing or not, you are repositioning the torsion bar by the 'cranking' action - the lever at the frame end of the torsion bar positions everything suspended from that point. Adjust the bolt = adjust the angle of the A-arm. The harsh ride comes from the increased angle of the A-arms fighting upward travel (bumps are transmitted to the frame more than they would have been had the A-arm been closer to horizontal), not by an additional load inflicted by the positioning lever. The same physics apply to a coil suspended rig (particularly the front end). When longer coil springs are installed the axle sits further away from the frame which effectively force the increased angle of the control arms to transmit force to the frame. Reindexing is only needed because of the short length of the adjusting bolts. If the bolts were an inch longer, reindexing may never be needed. "Torsion" is simply a term for the action of the spring during suspension travel. For the lever to be the means of adding torsion (ie spring rate) there would have to be a another element added to the spring...

Now if you were to add a heavier motor, a winch, an exo-cage, a large person, and a big bumper... cranking on the torsion bars would inflict a certain amount of twist into the torsion spring to maintain stock height. But this is in the terms of stored energy versus an increase in spring rate. So in that scenario, then certainly the springs would wear out prematurely. However, if the VX were kept at stock weight yet lifted, the leverage applied from the steeper angle of the A-arms would be lessened, (a decrease in stored energy) so in theory the springs should be more resistant to 'sag'.

I like playing in the muddy waters! :bgwo:

Ok, I'll break it down into simplest terms. I'm going to just use arbitrary numbers and angles, so don't take anything for gospel.

-1: On a stock VX lets just say the torsion bars are cranked 20 cranks from the factory. We all know the VX rides, behaves, and was in fact designed for this amount of torsion in the rods. Lets also say that this amount of torsion gives you 3" of clearance at the wheel well and that the A-arms are deflected 15 degrees downwards. The VX is no doubt supported by this amount of torsion in the system.

-2: On a typical lifted VX lets say it takes 3-4 cranks(turns) to gain each extra inch of clearance between the tire and wheelwell. I've heard numbers all over the place, but usually people crank about 14-15 cranks to get about 3 additional inches of clearance which now brings the total to 6". The A-arms are now at 30 degrees downward lets say since they are what is moving to provide you with that lift. The torsion bar is still supporting the same weight of the VX, but now it is under more tension because you are in effect loading up a spring. Everyone notices this in the stiffer handling of your VX. It's like winding up a catapult. We can all agree that if you keep cranking on your torsion bars, it puts more stress on them the more you crank until they eventually snap.

-3: On a reindexed lifted VX, you are unloading the bars so they are not supporting any vehicle weight. You are then basically pre-positioning your 30 degrees of lift and 6" total clearance into your A-arms. Keep in mind the VX is still not being supported by the suspension at this time. When you put the torsion bar splines back into the A-arms, they aren't under any load yet and if you let the VX down, your tires would push themselves up towards the wheelwells. Here's where the trick comes in. We know from my first statement here that the factory cranked the bars 20 turns to get your VX to ride and behave like they designed. You only have to put those 20 turns back in and it will support the weight and handling of the vehicle. That's the difference. You just don't have the extra cranks in the system so the torsion bars aren't working as hard to put you at the right height. Your 6" of lift is still there since you had already moved the A-ams into place beforehand. The trick with reindexing is that you technically aren't cranking your torsion bars to provide any lift you are just repositioning your A-arms to the lifted angle and using the torsion bars to support your VX as intended.

-4: In cases of extreme lift like mine, I did both. I indexed the bars to gain most of my lift, then cranked the piss out of them to give me even more until I was almost riding on the bumpstops underneath. CVs do not like this by the way. The extreme angles they end up with inevitably tear the boots because as the A-arms move down more, they also move inwards. This pushes the CV cages into the cups and makes them ride where they werent supposed to. It also further compresses the boots on their bottoms and pulls them at their tops(referring to the inners, outers will be reverse). When you keep in mind that the boots are rotating at high speeds, and that the rubber is compressing/getting pulled in each revolution, you can see why lifted rigs tear boots. The same stresses are being applied to the cages and balls within the CV cups. That's another reason lifted rigs should watch their CVs.


Hope things are as clear as dirty water now instead of just clear as mud:bwgy:

[Ascinder]

That actually makes sense, but I could have sworn I read that you are putting increased tension(torsion) on the bars to acheive the lifting. In essence, winding up a spring to have it apply pressure(downwards in this case) to gain clearance. Maybe my info was bad. So it's just suspension geometry breaking bars and not indexing? Somethings missing there.

[ZEUS]

That actually makes sense, but I could have sworn I read that you are putting increased tension(torsion) on the bars to acheive the lifting. In essence, winding up a spring to have it apply pressure(downwards in this case) to gain clearance. Maybe my info was bad. So it's just suspension geometry breaking bars and not indexing? Somethings missing there.I think it's that combination of weighty accessories, hard-core use, and the springs' struggle to control oversize/heavier tires/unsprung weight. I've never known anyone who has broken a torsion bar tho so can't really say - I would love to hear what that sounds like!!! ...On someone else's rig! :bgwo:

[SlowPro48]

Sorry Beau, but I just can't get past the fact that the same amount of force is required to lift the same amount of weight to the same height. It shouldn't matter if the bar ends are in position "A" or position "B"...:_thinking

From the torsion bar's viewpoint, it DOESN'T matter - as long as the VX is just sitting there...

When you're actually using your suspension travel, however, it DOES matter!

For the sake of discussion let's say there's 1,000 lbs on each corner of the VX and the distance between the center of the torsion bar and the hub is 1 foot - so with the VX just sitting there, the torsion bar feels 1,000 ft-lbs of torque. Like you pointed out, unless you've cranked so much the suspension is topped out, the only significant variables involved are mass of VX, gravity and length of lever, which are all constant.

BUT - let's say you take that stock ride height VX out for a spin, hit a big G-out and bottom the suspension. Let's also say for the sake of discussion front suspension travel from normal ride height to bump stops is 5 inches and spring rate is 300 lb/inch* - so at the point of bottoming out, your torsion bar feels 2,500 ft-lbs of twist. You hate bottoming out so easily though - so you raise the ride height a couple inches by cranking the torsion bar. Now you've got seven inches of travel from ride height to bump stops. Sweet! You can go even faster through that G-out before you bottom out the suspension - at which point the torsion bar now feels the effects of 3,100 ft-lbs of torque (two more inches at 300 lbs/inch = 600 ft-lbs more torque) and like any other spring it probably doesn't like being twisted by 3,100 ft-lbs as much as it does 2,500 ft-lbs...

Cranking the torsion bar increases ride height but that's just a side effect of increased pre-load. It's fine for small adjustments but Ascinder's method adjusts ride height directly, allowing you to keep pre-load within stock range even for larger adjustments to ride height.

*yeah I know - proper units for spring rate of torsion bars would be in force/angle but lever length is same so using force/distance doesn't have any bearing on outcome - for that matter, all these numbers are made up for simple illustration purposes

[taylorRichie]

I like turtles!

[Triathlete]

I like turtles!
:ot::hj::bwgy:

[SlowPro48]

I like turtles!

I hear you like ponies too.

:p

[Ldub]

Cranking the torsion bar increases ride height but that's just a side effect of increased pre-load. It's fine for small adjustments but Ascinder's method adjusts ride height directly, allowing you to keep pre-load within stock range even for larger adjustments to ride height.

So by this theory, reindexing the torsion bar "magically" reduces the amount of force required to lift a given amount of weight (load) to the same height?

OK, if you say so...:yesgray:

At this point, I'm willing & able to agree to disagree...:smilewink

Also, reindexed or not, the suspension travel from like heights, through the full available motion (when it hits the bump stop) is the same, creating the same amount of torsional force for a given amount of travel.

[tom4bren]

The bottom line is that it appears safe to lift 3" using the torsion bar crank (been proven on a fairly large number of our VX's). If you need to go much higher than that though ... better start looking at other options such as a body lift.

[ZEUS]

The bottom line is that it appears safe to lift 3" using the torsion bar crank (been proven on a fairly large number of our VX's). If you need to go much higher than that though ... better start looking at other options such as a body lift.HEY! You keep your clear water comments to yourself! :p

[tom4bren]

HEY! You keep your clear water comments to yourself! :p

Now let's talk about tie rods ... do whatever you want to those ... they never break.

[ZEUS]

Now let's talk about tie rods ... do whatever you want to those ... they never break.Well actually... with an offset from Hell... :p

[SlowPro48]

Ldub - I see what you're saying - had to do a little more visualizing there. You're right. I'm wrong. As long as the torsion bar is not pre-loaded to the point where the suspension is topped out, it doesn't matter if the lift is achieved by reindexing or by cranking the torsion bar - when ride height is increased, suspension travel from "baseline" to bump stop is increased - therefore max torque the torsion bar can experience is increased the same amount no matter which method you use. If you crank past the point you're topped out you would increase the max torque seen by the torsion bar, however, as each ft-lb of preload at the top of travel is a ft-lb added at the bottom of travel. But I doubt if anybody would keep cranking after the VX stops going up. There's probably not that much adjustment range is there? You'd have to re-index to do that! :bgwb: OK I gotta get back to my crack pipe now. Thanks for the mental excercise!

Tom - Yeah there's no problem with safety - I wasn't saying that. It's just that the VX won't handle as well if you crank so much preload in that you're riding way higher in the stroke than the designer intended. At three inches higher than normal ride height you're probably not that far from being topped out. When off-road racing on two wheels you want race sag (that would be the equivalent of VX ride height with you and your gear in it) to be set so that you're about 1/3 down into the stroke and I imagine it's a similar setup for best suspension compliance when you're in the four wheel realm too. It's not good for handling/traction if you're topping out all the time. But then I guess the aim here isn't good high speed off-road handling anyway is it? Nobody's running in a rally or a SCORE desert race or anything - they just want more ground clearance to prevent getting hung up and keep from ripping stuff off the bottom of their VX as they crawl over rocks!

[tom4bren]

But then I guess the aim here isn't good high speed off-road handling anyway is it? Nobody's running in a rally or a SCORE desert race or anything - they just want more ground clearance to prevent getting hung up and keep from ripping stuff off the bottom of their VX as they crawl over rocks!

Nope - it's all about the big tires.

Go big or go home.:)

[Ldub]

Ldub - I see what you're saying - had to do a little more visualizing there. You're right. I'm wrong. As long as the torsion bar is not pre-loaded to the point where the suspension is topped out, it doesn't matter if the lift is achieved by reindexing or by cranking the torsion bar - when ride height is increased, suspension travel from "baseline" to bump stop is increased - therefore max torque the torsion bar can experience is increased the same amount no matter which method you use. If you crank past the point you're topped out you would increase the max torque seen by the torsion bar, however, as each ft-lb of preload at the top of travel is a ft-lb added at the bottom of travel. But I doubt if anybody would keep cranking after the VX stops going up. There's probably not that much adjustment range is there? You'd have to re-index to do that! :bgwb: OK I gotta get back to my crack pipe now. Thanks for the mental excercise!

Tom - Yeah there's no problem with safety - I wasn't saying that. It's just that the VX won't handle as well if you crank so much preload in that you're riding way higher in the stroke than the designer intended. At three inches higher than normal ride height you're probably not that far from being topped out. When off-road racing on two wheels you want race sag (that would be the equivalent of VX ride height with you and your gear in it) to be set so that you're about 1/3 down into the stroke and I imagine it's a similar setup for best suspension compliance when you're in the four wheel realm too. It's not good for handling/traction if you're topping out all the time. But then I guess the aim here isn't good high speed off-road handling anyway is it? Nobody's running in a rally or a SCORE desert race or anything - they just want more ground clearance to prevent getting hung up and keep from ripping stuff off the bottom of their VX as they crawl over rocks!

That's mighty gracious of you to say, & truth be told, I was starting to think that I might have been looking at from the wrong end of the pipe...:_thinking
But no matter how I tried to get my head wrapped around how reindexing would change the force needed, I couldn't do it.
IMO, a good discussion isn't about who's right or wrong, it's about getting to what's really going on, & I think we might be there...:yesgray:
Of course, there is still room for further views that might not be exactly the same.
I was kinda hoping that one of our members with a broader understanding of mechanical engineering than I have, would step in & splain it better.
Here's to you, for being a good sport & playing nice...:_beer:

[Ldub]

That actually makes sense, but I could have sworn I read that you are putting increased tension(torsion) on the bars to acheive the lifting. In essence, winding up a spring to have it apply pressure(downwards in this case) to gain clearance. Maybe my info was bad. So it's just suspension geometry breaking bars and not indexing? Somethings missing there.

If I'm understanding your point properly, you are right about lifting beyond stock ride height increasing the torsional load required to maintain the increase in height.
But on the other point you are making, I have never heard of anyone having recurring problems with torsion bar breakage.
The H-D ones that are available from Indy 4X would most likely require fewer cranks to achieve a higher than normal ride height, but IMO, that would be due to their larger than stock H-D construction, giving them more torsional force, requiring less crankage to achieve the same amount of lift.

[ZEUS]

I was kinda hoping that one of our members with a broader understanding of mechanical engineering than I have, would step in & splain it better.
And I did... :smilewink

[tom4bren]

And I did... :smilewink

I have no response to that.

[LittleBeast]

The H-D ones that are available from Indy 4X would most likely require fewer cranks to achieve a higher than normal ride height, but IMO, that would be due to their larger than stock H-D construction, giving them more torsional force, requiring less crankage to achieve the same amount of lift.

After talking to the guys over at Independent4x for about half an hour the other day, he explained to me that the HD Torsion bars are probably the #1 best way to increase your on road handling in the VX. The way he explained it to me, was that basically when you lift the rear end with harder and longer springs, to do the same thing to the front you would need HD torsion bars. They act like stiffer "springs" in the front, and can be used to compensate for softer shocks than needed on the front. One of the guys there said he was about to sell his trooper and then the owner of Indepedent4x convinced him to try to HD torsion bars first, after he did that he said it was like a new car and performed better than ever, so he kept it indefinitely after that one mod.....

Made me really want to do this upgrade:
https://id211.chi.us.securedata.net/independent4x.com/merchantmanager/product_info.php?cPath=1_12_23_30&products_id=86

[ZEUS]

Does anyone know if the VX torsion bars have a different spring rate than a Trooper? To my understanding the VX has thicker sway bars than a Trooper so just curious...

[Ldub]

And I did... :smilewink

BAD oversight on my part, most humble apology to you Sir...:mbrasd:.:flower:.:laughing:

[Ldub]

they just want more ground clearance to prevent getting hung up and keep from ripping stuff off the bottom of their VX as they crawl over rocks!

Well yah...that & lookin' cool az H3II with our "go big or go home" tires, & offset from h3II...:laughing:

[SilverBullet75]

So, in reading this whole thread... I want to pose a new scenario/question.

In theory... To decrease nose-dive on braking, could you use Ascinder's method, by re-indexing the torsions at a "lowered" stance, then crank them up to stock height, giving them added tension/firmness?

Just a thought.

---JIM---

[Ldub]

So, in reading this whole thread... I want to pose a new scenario/question.

In theory... To decrease nose-dive on braking, could you use Ascinder's method, by re-indexing the torsions at a "lowered" stance, then crank them up to stock height, giving them added tension/firmness?

Just a thought.

---JIM---

IMO...

It shouldn't matter where the TB's are indexed...it still requires the same amount of force, to maintain the same load, at the same height...no matter what that height is, stock, lowered, or lifted.


But that's just me, I'm a different breed of cat...:smilewink

I mean no disrespect towards anyone's opinion, and as always, mine is worth exactly whatcha paid for it, maybe even less...:yesgray:

[Ascinder]

After having done some further research into this I believe Larry and Justin were in fact correct. I had been informed that the torsion bars functioned differently than they actually do. If you look around on the internet there is a lot of information out there, as well as a lot of misinformation. I read some explanations of they worked and didn't really give it another thought, that was my mistake.

Getting back to your question:

n theory... To decrease nose-dive on braking, could you use Ascinder's method, by re-indexing the torsions at a "lowered" stance, then crank them up to stock height, giving them added tension/firmness?

Yes, I believe you could, but not for the reasons I mentioned. Justin(ZEUS) pointed out that my suspension felt stiffer due to the increased angles on the drivetrain and suspension components because now in order to nose-dive, the A-arms and wheels must be forced outwards in order to be able to move downwards. It takes more force because you are now working against leverage to squat the front end. Again, sorry for putting out any bad info.

[SlowPro48]

...I've heard if you grind up some Viagra and sprinkle it on your A-arms it will stiffen up your suspension.

[Ldub]

...I've heard if you grind up some Viagra and sprinkle it on your A-arms it will stiffen up your suspension.

Did you hear they're coming out with viagra in liquid form?

It will now be possible for a man to literally "pour himself a stiff one"...:laughing:

Torsion Bar Suspension.................................A ARM!...:smilewink

[Mile High VX]

Did you hear they're coming out with viagra in liquid form?

It will now be possible for a man to literally "pour himself a stiff one"...:laughing:

Torsion Bar Suspension.................................A ARM!...:smilewink

LMAO...:bwgy::smilewink:bgwo::bgwb: