Have I made a mistake?

[LiquidVX]

My obsession with the Vehicross may be getting the better of me. Yesterday I picked up my second VX, the Black 1999 with 35k miles that I have posted about in the past. The car was mostly as described but had an unusual amount of rust for a "garaged" VX with 35k miles. My last one was sold with 76k miles and was in way better condition illustrating once again other people's standard of what is "mint" seems to be much different from my own.


Odometer worries
The Carfax report showed no odometer tampering and the title states the odometer had 32500 on 01/09/10. The Pennsylvania title also says "Odometer Status, 0" meaning actual mileage. However the screws for the dash look like they have been removed and the engine compartment and undercarriage look like they have driven around the world. The interior is good except the plastic for the driver's side handle (its loose) and the back where the owner kept his tools (scuffs and scrapes in the plastic). The brakes don't engaged until the pedal is nearly on the floor and the car pulls to the left when using the brakes. Owner states he has never changed the brakes.

Overall I am thinking he lied about the car being garaged. There is no way it could have this much rust with so little miles and being garaged. If that is the case then it is not a far stretch to imagine he also fibbed about the odometer. But I have no proof- the title and Carfax backs up his claims. However the title also states the car had 32500 miles in January meaning he drove 2500 miles since the title was issued. Guess what this extrapolates to... about 130,000 miles for the 10.5 years he has owned it. Obviously this isn't a large enough time frame for an accurate sample but it still doesn't look good.

Is there another way to tell if the odometer has been tampered with?

[LiquidVX]

Many may be wondering why I would buy a vehicle despite having so many doubts about it. Here is a list.

it was the only VX in driving distance with less than 50k miles.
if the mileage is truly 35k then it should be a great deal.
I had just driven 7.5 hours to see this and really did not want to leave empty handed.

[LiquidVX]

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/medium/20100418_001.jpg

What could this be? The seller had no idea.

[etlsport]

it looks like a gas cap to me ;Db;

if you take the gauge cluster out, im sure you can see marks on the screws that hold the circuit board on the back if the odo has been tampered with

does it have the factory head unit? if not thats why the dash screws would have been removed

how about wear on the tires? if they are well worn and not the original duelers, might have more miles than he let on, you can always check the date code on the tires

do you have the vin? i would also try calling around to dealerships/service centers in the area you bought the vehicle to see if they have service records for it, most places will log the mileage when its serviced

[BigSwede]

I don't think there is much of an inverse correlation between being in a garage and rust. Sometimes garaging can increase rust, if it is a heated garage. Drive a vehicle through the road salt and then park it in a nice, warm garage all the time - heaven for rust! Whereas sitting out in the cold the chemical reaction known as rust is much slower acting...

[BigSwede]

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/medium/20100418_001.jpg

What could this be? The seller had no idea.
Looks like a little paint overspray to me, although why it would be in that particular location doesn't make sense...

[Ldub]

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/medium/20100418_001.jpg

What could this be? The seller had no idea.

Maybe fix it like this...

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=3426&highlight=fuel+door

And replace the cap screws with new stainless hardware...:yesgray:

[LiquidVX]

Looks like a little paint overspray to me, although why it would be in that particular location doesn't make sense...

My thoughts exactly. I will definitely be refinishing the filler cap.

I just took another photo of the rust.
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/medium/20100418_002.jpg


Is it possible to replace this part in front of the windshield?
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/medium/20100418_003.jpg

[LiquidVX]

do you have the vin?

JACCN57X3X7991984
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/medium/20100418_005.jpg

[Travelin2]

I would guess it has been driven on the beach.

[89Vette]

One option is to post CLOSEUP pics of the pedals. See if you can get other owners to do the same. Pedal wear is often a good indicator of actual age.

With the undercarriage rust you've pictured/described, I suspect it wasn't garaged all THAT much and/or it was in a very humid/salty climate (like near the ocean).

[wintermute]

Hi Liquid. I just purchased a VX from NY that has several similar issues.

Selling points for me were 63K miles, clean interior, all stock, and price. I paid $8K which I felt was a bit high after seeing the car in person. I live in CA and had it shipped, since it was the lowest mileage VX I could find for sale at the time for under $10K. Bonus selling points were that this was a Kaiser Black/Red with factory moonroof in good working condition.

Similar issues on mine:
• The gas cap allen bolts are rusted, just as yours are.
• My gas cap and all body panels have light over spray from where the previous owner rattle can spray painted all of the cladding and hood insert. :mad: It looks very similar to your gas cap.

I ended up cleaning up most all of the over spray on the body and gas cap with a little bit of carefully applied paint thinner and Meguiar's rubbing compound. I then buffed and waxed the cap (removed from car) and the body. It looks great now. I also replaced all the allen bolts.

I had similar concerns about my reported mileage, even though my carfax checked out and there were no title issues. The seller advertised this car as "no rust" and "never driven in snow" yet there is rust all over the car, albeit at spots where it is very common for rust on these cars. I seriously doubt the "never driven in snow" claim.

• My front bumper support was completely rusted through, and sitting loose in the front bumper.
• The transfer lever was completely rusted through, and broke off in my hands the first time I put it in 4WD locked mode.
• The windshield wipers had a lot of surface rust. Pulled them off and refinished them.
• Rear license light bracket completely rusted through.
• There is surface rust all over the suspension and bolts everywhere on the undercarriage of the car.

I'm working my way through the car restoring as much as I can piece by piece. The frame has some light surface rust spots, but nothing too bad. Body panels are good.

I'm currently waiting for an estimate from a body shop to have all body cladding removed and refinished, since I need to strip the spray paint and it's a bigger project than I want to tackle.

Back to your question. Did you make a mistake? From the pics you posted, it doesn't seem any worse than mine. :)

However, in my searches it seems that unless the VX was EXCEPTIONALLY well cared for and pampered, these are some very common problems for a 10-11 year old Vehicross, regardless of mileage. If it saw any snow or rain, there are several points on the car that seem to rust fairly easily.

[LiquidVX]

I paid $8K which I felt was a bit high after seeing the car in person

Well that makes me feel pretty stupid. I paid $11k! I could not get the guy to go down. We discussed price over the phone and I was willing to pay $11k based on his description. I guess he figured he had me over a barrel considering how far I had come to just see the car, and he knew I had the money since we were talking $11k initially.


• My front bumper support was completely rusted through, and sitting loose in the front bumper.
• The transfer lever was completely rusted through, and broke off in my hands the first time I put it in 4WD locked mode.
• The windshield wipers had a lot of surface rust. Pulled them off and refinished them.
• Rear license light bracket completely rusted through.
• There is surface rust all over the suspension and bolts everywhere on the undercarriage of the car. - ditto.

The car is from Kittanning, PA where there is no ocean but there is a river. I think road salt is the main culprit since there is little white spots everywhere there is rust.

I may not have made a mistake but I have certainly learned some valuable lessons from the experience.

[VX KAT]

The car is from Kittanning, PA where there is no ocean but there is a river. I think road salt is the main culprit since there is little white spots everywhere there is rust.

I grew up right around there, seriously tough on cars...rust came through on all the sheetmetal, despite that "undercoating" they always charged ya for.

[wintermute]

Well that makes me feel pretty stupid. I paid $11k! I could not get the guy to go down. We discussed price over the phone and I was willing to pay $11k based on his description. I guess he figured he had me over a barrel considering how far I had come to just see the car, and he knew I had the money since we were talking $11k initially.

I may not have made a mistake but I have certainly learned some valuable lessons from the experience.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. You have almost half the miles I do on your odometer, which is a good thing. I don't think the wear you pointed out necessarily means the mileage is inaccurate. Anything is possible, but it could have low mileage and still have sat outside in the weather.

I've seen VXs in worse condition with higher asking prices. Many. I've also seen lower priced ones that looked cleaner from the outside. How is your VX mechanically? With 35K, it should be in great running shape. If the wear on yours is mostly cosmetic, than I would say you're still in pretty good shape. With some TLC, that VX can be good as new.

Forgot to mention, the VX I bought has a warped exhaust manifold/leak and I just opted to put a new timing belt in it due to the mileage and signs of neglect, just to be safe. $$$

I think I learned some valuable lessons in my transaction too. Hindsight is always 20/20. On the bright side, we have projects for the summer, and rare, relatively low mileage VXs worth restoring, IMO. :yeso:

The low miles on your odometer should help you with resale down the road, should you decide to fix it up and sell it later.

[LiquidVX]

Mechanically everything is good except for the brakes which I was told have never been changed. I have already ordered the parts to take care of that though.

Thanks for the reassuring and words.

[WormGod]

On the garage vs rust issue, mine has been garage kept its whole life too, but living just south of PA in the rust belt, there is nothing you can do to avoid it. We salt our roads in the winter, and that's enough to cause us strife. We deal with it.

The gas cap finish just GOES. Seems like it's just a simple satin gray that has no protection from the factory. Just re-zap it.

[BigSwede]

Yes, unless you wash the salt off before you park it in the garage (every time!), it will still rust in the garage.

[WormGod]

Yes, unless you wash the salt off before you park it in the garage (every time!), it will still rust in the garage.

Exactly, and finding an open car wash or do-it-yourself is not an option in the dead of winter with 15f temps and 2ft of snow. Thus.... the term, rust belt. The sad part here is, after 60+ inches of snow this year, there is still some standing salt on some roads here. Probably be around till summer. We could use more rain to help clear it out.

Did have a neighbor try to hose down his car some years back during the winter. Not the smartest thing to do.... as he had 2 plumbing vans outside of his house the next 2 days fixing his broken water pipes, heh.

[LiquidVX]

I took some time yesterday to hose down the engine compartment. It is cleaning up nicely but there are some parts that will need replacing. Does anyone know if it is possible to replace the panel between the hood and the windshield that has the vents in it? Where the washer wiper connect.

I washed everything down and put liquid wrench on all the bolts because if they are anything like the license plate screws they are probably seized. Next weekend I will start taking things apart to clean them up better and replace what needs to be replaced. Anyone know a good place to buy body bolts and bumper parts?

[atilla_the_fun]

you could always restore the winshield wiper cowl yourself - I really thought it was plastic, but that looks like its metal that has rusted? I restored the one on my Eagle last year. came out brilliantly. If ours is metal, then you'll have to take it off and clean it up, maybe bondo/glaze it as well to get it looking flat and normal, sand it down with high grit- primer- base-clear (or do a single stage or rustoleum metallic finish can job).

Its a piece that you'll have to get from a VX being parted out, and its almost always going to be grey and not black (due to sun damage).

[wintermute]

Cowl lower or upper. I have been using this site's schematics to ID parts I need:
http://www.isuzupartscenter.com/schematics/4/4628240.gif

Occasionally, the local dealers still providing warranty coverage have been able to order me *some* parts.

Agreeing with Atilla, your cheapest and best bet will be to find someone parting one out that has the piece you need in better condition than yours. In my experience this has proven to be difficult in many instances though.

[LiquidVX]

There is a '99 Silver VX in my state without an engine. Maybe I should buy it for these kinds of things. How much would guys suppose it is worth?

If he wants too much for it I will just refinish the upper cowl. I was suprised to see it rusted myself. It sounds like plastic when you tap it.

[VX KAT]

Check with "VX Crazy" as she has her wrecked VX in her garage, selling parts.

[atilla_the_fun]

you may be better off buying the VX without an engine, installing an axiom engine which is bullet proof, minimally restoring the one you have now - turn it for 13-14 (a profit if you do all the restore work yourself), and living happily ever after with a vx you never have to worry about.

VX with no engine = 1750-2700$

[LiquidVX]

cool thanks for the info guys.

More bad news for me though. I went to the store to get oil and filter and a bunch of detailing supplies. On the way there the check engine light came on. It is immediately on now when ever I start the car. I think the answer to my thread title is starting to look like a yes. :mad:

The Axiom engine is a good idea.

[PHO2GR4]

I bought my Ebony VX off of eBay and had it shipped from Florida all the way up to Seattle. I, too, was REALLY disappointed in what I considered to be gross misrepresentation of the actual condition. But after a couple of fixes...mostly gaskets and screws and such...I LOVE this VX and wouldn't trade it for the world.

I think the rust on the various screws and bolts is more a factor of the age of the car. ANY moisture, over this amount of time, is bound to show...even if it's been in a garage.

Bottom line: how does it drive?

[LiquidVX]

It drives well. I wish I could agree with the rust simply being because of its age, but this is my second '99 VX and the first was in much better shape than this with far more miles.

[atilla_the_fun]

if you can prove that the odometer has been rolled back, carfax will buy it back, right?

Run the codes for the engine light and see what comes up, it could just be Murphy's law taking effect and you'll be fine once you wade through these issues

[LiquidVX]

I noticed on the carfax the interior says Black/tan. Does anyone have a carfax that says black/red? Is this a discrepancy or a misprint.

Here is the link (http://liquidproduction.net/vx/CARFAX.pdf) to my carfax.

[atilla_the_fun]

I really don't like the fact that there were no mileages listed between the original owner's purchase date and the second owner's purchase date. What did this person say when you asked him why he is selling after THREE months of owning the car? If it actually changed hands, and this guy sold it after only three months - I would be very suspicious. I was born suspicious, but this would set off some alarms for me.

I've looked through some CARFAX reports I ran when I was looking for mine, and I found a 99' astral silver that lists BLACK/TAN as its interior, so don't sweat that.

Here is an interesting idea if you want to get crafty- call the Pennsylvania DMV and find out how much in taxes (or the declared purchase price) this second owner paid. If he bought it for way less than you did, he could conceivable have tampered with the odometer - LIED on the title - and then resold it.

[Riff Raff]

A word about tampering with traditional analog rotary (non-LED) odometers. Rotary odometers have built-in "spikes" that gently ride on top of each numeric wheel cylinder of the odometer. When the odometer is turning in the correct rotational direction (going forward in mileage), the "spike" resting on each numeric wheel makes featherlight/nill contact with each rotating numeric disc. However, when the odometer direction is intentionally reversed (rotated backwards against the grain) as in an attempt to lower the mileage, then each "spike" will dig-in and make a severe gouge/scratch dead-center on each numeric wheel disc that was rotated in reverse direction. This is a tell-tale sign that the odometer was tampered with.

The two(2) most common ways to modify mileage on a vehicle are:

A: "Forward" (not reverse) the existing odometer reading with an electric drill until the original odometer is at all zero's once again (like when it was new). Then continue "forward" until the desired new mileage is selected using the electric drill. This method is very time-consuming because the mileage must get to 999,999.9 before reaching all zero's again; but since the numeric disc's are still going "forward", then there will be no gouge/scratch marks caused by the anti-rotational spikes.

B: The second common method (and often the easiest) is to simply "replace" the original speedometer/odometer in the vehicle with either a used one from a wrecked vehicle having less mileage on it (the preferred method) OR with a brand new speedometer/odometer unit from the factory with all zero's (then it is "forwarded" with an electric drill to the desired mileage reading).

With the computer aid of CARFAX reports, it is very difficult to roll-back mileage without creating suspicious gaps in the vehicle's history or raising red flags of mileage inconsistency. Vehicle Emission/State Inspection/Title Transfer/Insurance Claim checks are prime tattle-tale zones where inconsistent odometer readings are normally found/discovered during a vehicle's life after manufacture.:fyi:

If there are suspicious entries on the CARFAX report, then the vehicle should be considered suspicious and not purchased.

[LiquidVX]

If there are suspicious entries on the CARFAX report, then the vehicle should be considered suspicious and not purchased.

Too late for that. :sighwgray:

The only thing suspicious about it is the second owner sold it after only 3 months but was pretending to be the original owner. Though I just thought of something. If he financed the vehicle, would the original title have been in his name?