Nutrition and Health - Proven results w/Science

[JHarris1385]

Alright with the few going back and forth on the "open up" thread about weight loss and health topics concerning with or around nutrition as well...here is what I do/know/share with friends and family. And well really this is a family here just was not sure how many would be interested.

...And I knew it would be lengthy post and I was lazy/busy.

First before I tell you, so that you get the hard facts prior to what I want to share with you.

Read or glance through these
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17089328
(National Library of Medicine, NIH (National Institute of Health) peer reviewed))

http://www.oneteamworldwide.com/pdf/zija_moringa_oleifera-p1.pdf
(further verification by John Hopkins School of Medicine)

Alright hopefully those two are credible enough for you guys. If not there is a plethora of them.

- Now you read some sources, but who is telling you and what do I know and who do I associate with. Currently I am working towards now my PHd in Bio/Chem, been accepted to med and dental schools and I have almost completed a medical nutritional degree at the same time. Not to boast, just wanted you to know the source. Now I work almost daily with a team of doctors and one who lectures internationally and focuses on more preventative care versus going to the doc and getting a chemical pill.

...You ready.
Its called Zija
Its the only company to be able to put all parts of the Moringa Tree in a 100% bio-available and absorbable format.

Gram for gram here is what it includes in comparison:
4 times the Calcium of Milk
4 times the Vitamin A of Carrots
2 times the Protein of Yogurt
3 times the potassium of Bananas
7 times the Vitamin C of Oranges

In addition:
Over 90 verifiable nutritional compounds:
46 - Antioxidants
36 – Anti-Inflammatories

Vitamins: A (B-Carotene), B1, B2, B3, Choline, C, D, E, and K

Minerals: Calcium, Iron, Potassium, Zinc, Copper, Manganese, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Selenium, Sulfur, Chlorophyll

Omega fatty acids: 3, 6, and 9

All 8 essential Amino Acids + 10: Isoleucine, Leucine, Lysine, Methionine, Phenylalanine, Threonine, Tryptophan, Valine, Alanine, Arginine, Aspartic Acid, Cystine, Glutamine, Glycine, Histidine, Proline, Serine, Tyrosine

Supreme Antioxidants: Zeatin, Lutein, Alpha and Beta-carotene, Zeaxanthin, Vitamins A, C, E, Selenium, Zinc, Kaempferol, Quercetin, Rutin, Caffeoylquinic acid and MORE!

Why it works is simple, your body absorbs it versus a multi vitamin and it is the ONLY to naturally bring that many nutrients to you at one time. The encapsulation nature of a vitamin kills the potency prior to the meld and then once consumed requires too much energy from your body to break it down. Ever wonder why Vitamin C bottles sometimes say 1000%? Ask a sewer worker or a septic tank/porta pot cleaner how many vitamins they see passed.

We do not get the nutrients from the foods we eat in comparison to years ago. If it is not processed it, it has herbicides, pesticides and so fourth altering the chemical and biological composure of it. The nutrition rates for every vegetable versus years ago is very minimal, we don't eat locally anymore. Its not our fault and we cant help it, it is the way we lived fast paced. As a result that is why we are faced with many lifestyle diseases some of which were either not around in history or are at an alarming rate. America is reactive we go to the doctor when we are sick and get medicine, alot of the rest of the world is more reactive trying to prevent that occurrence.

For weight loss it catalyzes ketosis in your body to burn adipose tissue (body fat). I can go into WAY more detail if prompted.

Personally for me I have lost 22 pounds and kept it off for a while now, and I have not had to take any sinus or allergy prescription medicines since. This is a HUGE success for me as Louisville is #1 or #2 year to year on the worst city for them....check http://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20100518/americas-worst-cities-for-spring-allergies

I would like to open this up for you all to post any aliments you may have, from high blood pressure, cholesterol, arthritis, diabetes, ADHD/ADD, fibromyalgia, you name it. I will tell you what I know and what my resources say as well for free. Plus show you a testimony. Post on here or pm me if you like to be discrete.

Beyond this and for general health. I would easily suggest that everyone stack up on their daily Vitamin D3. Some of you may or may not, but almost all are either not taking enough or not taking. No matter what everyone needs to take about 5,000-10,000 IUs daily. That is roughly only 5-10cents a day. You can go to the doctor if you like and check your levels but like I said it very safe for me to assume you are low. They may say you are ok...as the range is large and you can be ok at 40, but you need to focus to get yourself into the 60-70 range.

I know some may say this was stupid to post and make comments that I do not have any ground to speak on or something in the negative manner versus my goal of helping. But oh well. I have too many people around me with great results to be afraid. I am very compassionate about this and health in general and I really like to talk about it so feel free to ask for more detail on anything. And once prompted I will post how to try it for yourself.

[vt_maverick]

Whatever man, I hate you for your arrogant and demeaning post. :mad:

J/K!!! Though I will poke at you a little; do you also have a job offer from the Zija company to go along with your med/dental school offers? ;) But connect the dots for the layman here, you give all the benefits of this pill, but how do you use it? In combination with nutrition change/diet, or by replacing 1-2 meals with it (a la SlimFast)? Or can I just keep eating pizza, burgers, and ice cream every meal and still lose weight? Fingers crossed... :luck:

[JHarris1385]

Honestly I did not change my diet...My family does own a pizza shop and I put in alot of time there to help out. I eat a pizza or pizza like sub 3-4 days a week. Your desires will change at times to needing less or you will find yourself (at least I did) wanting fruit more as a snack or leaner meats. This plays into the fact that Moringa fills your body's daily needs much like a bar graph, when one falls your body now acts to get it. This all brings your body to an equilibrium as it has maybe never been before.

Its much more than weight loss as with the combination of the amino acids, omegas and protein punch, given that your cell walls are lippoprotein barrier it builds your cells stronger.

Degenerative health conditions are a result of dehydration and oxygen depletions at the cellular level. A cell can die and shrivel up if the membrane wall is weak.

I personally did not have too much weight to lose I did not think. Well I was wrong. I was a true test. It all honestly came from my gut, which I knew was growing or had grown! It claims to not lose more weight than you need as if you take all three sectors to jump start the weight loss, if you continue all you wont be skin and bones it stops once you reach your optimal stance.

It is three things:
A mix that you mix into water - very potent moringa
A pill you take in the am - moringa, plus energy and catalyst for weight loss
A tea to help break down the toxins (adipose tissue is a toxin to the body)

Its all natural, everything.

And yes I do work with Zija now. Here is my story. I was purchasing it from my doctor, one I work with, and he was buying it from some link the triathlete gave him. Little did he know or I that the tri was getting a kick back from it. So finally he signed up and I did too to order it directly ourselves. You share the story so yours becomes paid for month to month. Its easy as there isn't selling involved more of walking testimonies that people ask what and how, ok I want it.

[JHarris1385]

Additional info on D3 - only gel cap or liquid


Plus this does have a guarantee, I have to use it yet but if you don't like it or don't think it worked you get the money back you spent.

Seriously before all doubts read the John Hopkins or Pubmed.gov - type in Moringa in the search bar there and look at the 200 articles about it. The are peer reviewed and that means EVERYTHING in science.

[Bob Barker]

That first post reads to me like a sales pitch.

[stangri]

I'll tell you what my problem with Zija is. If you google it the first page of results is full of the MLM/pyramid stuff.

I'm sure they gave you canned answer for the following question: if the Zija is so great, howcome it's not on the store shelves?

But can you tell me what great product was ever used as an MLM building mechanism and distributed same way?

I'm sure everyone noticed that while normally when someone on the forum praises a product it's usually accompanied with a link where the product was purchased. Your post didn't have that. Another red flag -- it's an MLM, stay away.

I realize this is sort of an open talk section of the forum, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, I don't believe there's a place for the MLM on this forum.

[Bob Barker]

I don't know what MLM is...

[Leah]

I don't know what MLM is...

I had to Google the def because I didn't know what it was either. It means Multi-Level Marketing...aka pyramid scheme, which is illegal...if I understood the definition correctly.

[stangri]

Yeah, it is multi-level marketing which in the essence is a pyramid. I'm not sure if it's illegal tho, there's plenty of ongoing MLM ventures both in Canada and US.

[circmand]

I had to Google the def because I didn't know what it was either. It means Multi-Level Marketing...aka pyramid scheme, which is illegal...if I understood the definition correctly.

Is Multi Level Marketing not always the same as pyramid but sometimes it is. That being said I prefer to find stuff I am buying in a brick and mortar store it gives a method to contact in case of dissatisfaction. Even though those stores sell the diet pills and such that come with great results promised with tiny print saying use in conjunction with diet and exercise.

I myself am woefully over weight but have recently lost 35 pounds. I did it with a combination flu and my favorite bar closing. It did motivate me so that I started dieting and exercising which only kepy me from gaining it back not further weight loss.

[JHarris1385]

Stangri - First and foremost I did not like the fact either that you are correct with the impression it is like one however, which you will probably say you have heard already. Its not the same. Ok lets say it is exactly the same as and another famous one...what Mary Kay? Thats not a pharmaceutical and it is not a month to month purchase. Its a new economy and businesses are thinking outside of the box. Whether you like them or not Warren Buffet and Bill Clinton are two main supporters of this style. And once again I was not pleased to hear it either, its my personal only flaw with it.

Another key is there is ZERO quality third party info on anything else like this. You can NOT deny the science behind it. If there was not any of this then I nor the team of doctors would put their name to it.

Here is the story - it used to be on the shelves for about 2 years, they won't tell you that now. But due to the economy and the overall lack of Americans wanting to try something new it did not sell well. So they switched gears and made it this way as now instead of paying for advertisement they now have people who have tried it sharing their stories.

I knew I would catch a few heckles, but what it would take is one to embrace it and see for yourself. You can not deny the third party facts. Read into Moring as much as you want. As you can see I did not push a try this buy it now. I knew we are internet savy here and would google it, I am not dumb. I wanted you all to find out for your self.

If you take anything away from this...at least take some D3. At least I can help there.

[Luna X]

I found this info very interesting...

I have a nasty gluten intolerance, so over the years, I have not been getting the benefit/nutrients from the food I eat. On top of that, I usually get headaches and stomach cramps just minutes after eating... no fun!

Even though doctors can't confirm this, I believe this is an underlying cause of my massive spine degradation and as to why my body is very inflexible.

jharris, are there any fillers in the product that would react with my gluten intolerance? I am interested in this product... I definately need some extra help in getting nutrients into my body, instead of everything just "passing through"... ;)

[JHarris1385]

There would be no reactors with your gluten intolerance. Also it should help with your spine pain as I assume there would be with the degradation of it with the anti inflamatories. Ill PM you.

[vt_maverick]

Agree that this has all the hallmarks of an MLM/pyramid scheme, though I would point out that those business structures are not illegal, but are significantly more controlled than they were in say the 1970s and 80s. You may already know, but Amway is still very much in business and has done so by spinning off child companies (Britt World Wide is one) that focus on a particular market segment. Another way businesses avoid the MLM/pyramid black eye is by no longer requiring "entrepreneurs" to buy their product up front and sell it, as well as by eliminating the "recruit other entrepreneurs to work underneath you" system. Essentially these folks now act as individual third party sales people that simply point potential customers towards a website to order. I would argue that the last strategy is no different than what we do on this forum; someone finds a good cladding treatment (mike nomy for example) then shares the story and pushes the rest of us to try it. So it's not like this type of post is unprecedented, and he did post it in the "Chit chat - Non VX" forum group, so I think crying foul is unwarranted.

All that said, I would be cautious of these studies. Amway had/has tons of studies that demonstrated that their toothpastes, cosmetics, etc. were the best thing out there; but it turns out most of those were less-than-reliable sources. But if this thing has been reviewed/recommended in the New England Journal of Medicine, etc., maybe it is legit.

[JHarris1385]

Thank you.

I have PDF's of alot of third party stuff. Pubmed is top teir, and so is John Hopkins. I have a hard copy of a New England Journal of Medicine book it is actually #138 in the references of the John Hopkins report.

I do have to state that the rest of the world's studies and embracing of Moringa is far more than ours and as a result there is a lot of overseas reports. I just wanted you all to see the American versions.

[JHarris1385]

I can give out small sample packs at my cost if you like. Ill cover shipping. You let me know your goals and I will tell you what is best.

[JHarris1385]

Also, in addition to D3 I would stop drinking tap water but I don't suggest bottled water either. To meet bottled water compliance it only has be 51% purified and then the rest is up to the companies profits goals of how to fill it.

The newest soon to be addition in all tap water is lithium. Overall they think it will calm us over active Americans down and lower suicide rates....go figure that one out.

[circmand]

Also, in addition to D3 I would stop drinking tap water but I don't suggest bottled water either. To meet bottled water compliance it only has be 51% purified and then the rest is up to the companies profits goals of how to fill it.

The newest soon to be addition in all tap water is lithium. Overall they think it will calm us over active Americans down and lower suicide rates....go figure that one out.

Have you seen the average American. We need something to make us more active.

[JHarris1385]

No kidding. Its crazy.

[Stephen Biko]

Seriously before all doubts read the John Hopkins or Pubmed.gov - type in Moringa in the search bar there and look at the 200 articles about it. The are peer reviewed and that means EVERYTHING in science.

Peer review is a minimum baseline to even begin to be taken seriously. What matters is the quality of the peers doing the reviews. For example, a guy publishing a journal of UFOlogy from his basement could have three of his buddies review his articles and POOF! it's now peer reviewed. In fact, it's probably safe to say that the number one red flag for scamming is the touting of peer review.

If the number of papers on pubmed means anything, I suggest we all light up a doobie because when I typed in "marijuana" I got 15,000+ articles. That's 750 times better than moringa.



Pubmed is top teir

Pubmed is just a fancy search engine. Finding a paper in pubmed is just slightly more meaningful than finding a webpage in google.


Read or glance through these
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17089328
(National Library of Medicine, NIH (National Institute of Health) peer reviewed))

http://www.oneteamworldwide.com/pdf/...leifera-p1.pdf
(further verification by John Hopkins School of Medicine)

Neither of those papers are much more than a list of other papers. They are not clinical trials. They are not laboratary tests. The peer review on them - even at top notch journals - would be nothing more than verifying that the cited papers exist.

The first article is out of Pakistan. Which makes sense because the plant is a common crop on the subcontinent. But Pakistan isn't known for the high quality of their universities either.

The second article - the one "verified by John Hopkins School of Medicine" was written by the same guy who is chief editor of the journal - Jed Fahey.
Trees for Life Journal - Editorial Board (http://www.tfljournal.org/staticpages/index.php?page=board)

The journal itself has nothing to do with the JH school of medicine - the only connection is that the editor of the magazine is a research associate there - not a professor, not tenure track. His job is almost certainly funded from outside JHU to run his brocolli lab.
Johns Hopkins Facult List > Jed Fahey (Faculty Research Associate) (http://research.hopkinsglobalhealth.org/GlobalFacultyPage.cfm?global_faculty_id=1436)
Academic Rank in the USA - Wikipedia (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Academic_rank_in_the_United_States#Temporary_facul ty_and_special_appointments)

Take a look at that website serving up the second article:
One Team Worldwide (http://www.oneteamworldwide.com/)

With all the rah-rah and sell-sell motivational zija stuff there, it's hard to imagine a more scamalicious website.

This whole idea of a "superfood" is really bunk although the MLM industry would certainly have you believe otherwise. Hell, outside of a couple of specific cases like folic acid for pregnant women, there is little scientific evidence that vitamin supplements will do you any good (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/183880.php). Eat healthy - stay away from fast food, including most prepared frozen foods due to the high sodium content, and most people will be fine. Eating like that is the way we evolved, even if such a thing existed, we don't need a superfood to be healthy, just good regular food.


Also, in addition to D3 I would stop drinking tap water ...

The newest soon to be addition in all tap water is lithium.

Really? You've gone from a couple of people talking (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/148872.php) about the results of a couple of studies to assuming that wholesale tinkering with our water supply is a done deal - with no public comment or anything else.

[VXD959]

An there is Monavie, Herbalife, etc...

There are some people at work doing "My Fit Food" program. I think that's the name. http://www.myfitfoods.com/About.asp
I have seen them drop 25-50 pounds in a few months.

It's a matter of healthy eating and working out + determination. There is no magic pill - unless you opt for surgery if you are obese. Watch the "Biggest Loser" and learn how to do it.

Coincidentally I just talked to my neighbor who went from size 36 to 32 in 3 months. High cholesterol and high blood pressure make him change his lifestyle and eating habits. He is also working out 3 times a week.

Once again, there is no magic pill...An yes, I'm 35 lbs over what is supposed to be my normal weight. And I just ate a chocolate bar while writing this. It's so hard to start....

[crotchrocket]

That first post reads to me like a sales pitch.

it Was :D

[Bob Barker]

Peer review is a minimum baseline to even begin to be taken seriously. What matters is the quality of the peers doing the reviews. For example, a guy publishing a journal of UFOlogy from his basement could have three of his buddies review his articles and POOF! it's now peer reviewed. In fact, it's probably safe to say that the number one red flag for scamming is the touting of peer review.

If the number of papers on pubmed means anything, I suggest we all light up a doobie because when I typed in "marijuana" I got 15,000+ articles. That's 750 times better than moringa.




Pubmed is just a fancy search engine. Finding a paper in pubmed is just slightly more meaningful than finding a webpage in google.



Neither of those papers are much more than a list of other papers. They are not clinical trials. They are not laboratary tests. The peer review on them - even at top notch journals - would be nothing more than verifying that the cited papers exist.

The first article is out of Pakistan. Which makes sense because the plant is a common crop on the subcontinent. But Pakistan isn't known for the high quality of their universities either.

The second article - the one "verified by John Hopkins School of Medicine" was written by the same guy who is chief editor of the journal - Jed Fahey.
Trees for Life Journal - Editorial Board (http://www.tfljournal.org/staticpages/index.php?page=board)

The journal itself has nothing to do with the JH school of medicine - the only connection is that the editor of the magazine is a research associate there - not a professor, not tenure track. His job is almost certainly funded from outside JHU to run his brocolli lab.
Johns Hopkins Facult List > Jed Fahey (Faculty Research Associate) (http://research.hopkinsglobalhealth.org/GlobalFacultyPage.cfm?global_faculty_id=1436)
Academic Rank in the USA - Wikipedia (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Academic_rank_in_the_United_States#Temporary_facul ty_and_special_appointments)

Take a look at that website serving up the second article:
One Team Worldwide (http://www.oneteamworldwide.com/)

With all the rah-rah and sell-sell motivational zija stuff there, it's hard to imagine a more scamalicious website.

This whole idea of a "superfood" is really bunk although the MLM industry would certainly have you believe otherwise. Hell, outside of a couple of specific cases like folic acid for pregnant women, there is little scientific evidence that vitamin supplements will do you any good (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/183880.php). Eat healthy - stay away from fast food, including most prepared frozen foods due to the high sodium content, and most people will be fine. Eating like that is the way we evolved, even if such a thing existed, we don't need a superfood to be healthy, just good regular food.



Really? You've gone from a couple of people talking (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/148872.php) about the results of a couple of studies to assuming that wholesale tinkering with our water supply is a done deal - with no public comment or anything else.

Jeeezus Christ-o!

I'm glad you did all that research! I actually read all the links!


and Crotchrocket, ur awesome!

[tjh]

Will this stuff make me fat ? I looking for a fat diet, chocolate and beer is not helping . One of these days my metabolism is bound to slow down...right ?

[VXR]

chocolate and beer is not helping

LOL they work for me:yesb:

[Kona-Vs]

Sorry. there's no Magic Bullet It Always comes down to how many times you lift your elbow to put calories in your mouth in relation to how you move/exercise to burn them off No doubt these supplements are good for your body in general but the multi level marketing and money is the bottom line No magic pill in weight loss but an occasional MaiTai is nice ;)

[Ldub]

An there is Monavie, Herbalife, etc...

For YEARS my aunt was touting the benefits of Tahitian noni juice as if it were religion.
Every time she'd come to visit, we would have to endure the spiel of how it was a miracle super food, how it promoted good health, would cure all...:bla:

She once she even claimed that it would cure a stomach ache if you put some of this crap on a cotton ball, & put it in your navel...:rolleyesg

Of course I had to ask, "what if you have an outie?"...:laughing:

Oh, & big surprise, she's now dying of cancer, 6 yrs after a radical mastectomy.

But I really should thank her for making me completely mistrustful of MLM products, & people who say "trust me" before making their point...:yesgray:

[JHarris1385]

Monavie stops at purely being a concentrated antioxidant, nothing more. You lack the potential nutrients once you concentrate or encapsulate anything that was once raw.

There is a lot to respond to.
I have hard copies of multiple books with studies.
Google it yourself I do not care and try to find them yourself.

Biko - you are sooo right. Schools and and doctors and VERY easily put their names behind something. Because what do they have to lose? Oh wait. They do have something to lose. Their credibility. This has been the case on a local level, once introduced they are skeptical, then they try it for themselves, research it while on it. Then in a month come back and say wow...lets get this going. No wonder we have multiple local doctors leading lectures now on Zija. Not on the sales, but one topic a week of how and why the combination of the ingredients could and will help.

What does it truly matter if J. Fahey is a researcher for John Hopkins and does not teach there? There is no meaning to that, only that you had enough time on your hands to post a couple links saying this guy just does research. You don't teach you just do research all day you must not be a credible as one who chooses to lecture students. Those lists are not who is smarter and who has more credibility more so who is going to get paid more as they would all to be at that that level have the same education or very close to the same. So once again, that meant nothing. Concerning him working with another company or organization, this happens all of the time. Current professors do this. One of mine right now works back in Egypt with some of their national organizations, another works with the American Board of Clinical Chemistry for research...and so on and so on.

You say diet, I mentioned that. Our diet is not the same as it once was. Now I know you can choose to eat the right food, but the "right" food is not what it once was. The nutrients are lost as it is not as potent, and it is not as easy to eat local produce. Our vegetables, raw or frozen are filled with all kinds of cides (pest/herb). Ever wonder why lifestyle diseases are on the rise and there are diseases that where not around back 50 years ago? Or due to the increased estrogen levels in our produce from the herbicide, causing young girls starting puberty as young as six and seven now?

Concerning tap water. I did not say to stop and never drink another ounce or you will suffer lifelong pain. I did say I would stop and and stated what the potential newest addition would be. I did not say there are a couple people talking about it, but thanks for a link that states that, you could have choosen another link and said oh wait, now their are three people talking about it...oh wait now this page has a town talking about it. Just wait and keep your eyes and ears open to it as it would concern me considering if choose to drink tap water I would like to know what I was drinking.

Congratulations on being very google search bar literate.

Considering what might have come off as a sales pitch in the first post or two, I have not been pushy one bit and did not state that everyone has to try it now. But what I have done is just let it flow to me and see who wants to try it or not. I will keep it private but I have been PM'd quite a few times, and they will all tell you I have offered to not sell them a retail junk price or direct them to my website but to actually do it at my cost and eat some plus shipping just so they can see for themselves. If I was purely in it to squeeze out ever penny I would have done otherwise. If I did not believe in it from my personal gains and losses I would not bite the bullet and say hey here is free money if you want it, because that is what it boils down to. Its not lightweight and a .44 stamp will not cut it, I will have to flat rate all of the boxes and I am taking roughly a 30% loss on each one at times. But that is fine with me.

[JHarris1385]

Once again, since it has not been commented on or I might have missed it.

Stack up on your D3 vitamins. Everyone has ten cents to spare. Keep it gel or liquid.

And yes, before someone posts you don't need this because D3 comes from the sun (which I can go into detail about) or something else, what do you have to lose?

[JHarris1385]

I would also like to keep this less argumentative if possible. I can see a potential thread hack of just going back and forth, for which I don't have time for and it was not my ideal result.

All I can say is just wait for the ones to try to get their stuff and report back. This may be a while but we will see. If they see or felt ZERO I want them to put that, its fine with me.

[Leah]

Seeing as how JHarris is a VX member in good standing, owns a VX - (I know cause I've seen him driving it) - and is clearly intelligent enough to stay calm in the face of incoming fire, I'm going to trust him and his research and give this a try. I will post my daily results for the 8 day trial period. It's sure to be riveting! ;)

[vt_maverick]

...Pubmed is just a fancy search engine. Finding a paper in pubmed is just slightly more meaningful than finding a webpage in google...

...which is to say, NEITHER necessarily means anything. Search results and links are just like statistics; the presence or quantity of them can be bent to support any number of opinions. IMHO, it's wise to be suspicious of anyone just because they can point to a long list of studies, white papers, and magazine articles. As with anything in life, experience is the best teacher, so it will be interesting to hear what Leah and others have to say in a few months.

[JHarris1385]

Leah - it was great to meet you and your VX.

[Ldub]

Seeing as how JHarris is a VX member in good standing, owns a VX - (I know cause I've seen him driving it) - and is clearly intelligent enough to stay calm in the face of incoming fire, I'm going to trust him and his research and give this a try. I will post my daily results for the 8 day trial period. It's sure to be riveting! ;)

I am now scrunching up my tinfoil hat to "riveted" setting...:yesgray:

[Moncha]

I am now scrunching up my tinfoil hat to "riveted" setting...:yesgray:

I was wondering where Mr. Zuckerman went!

[Leah]

Leah - it was great to meet you and your VX.

It was great to meet you, too, John! Love your truck!!!

[BigSwede]

My doctor got me into taking Vitamin D a few years back...especially at my latitude, we don't get enough sunlight to produce it from our skin much of the year.

[Leah]

I am first going to establish a baseline for comparison: I have ADD and for that I take Concerta. I also take B12, Super B-complex, biotin, ginseng, Chromium Picolinate and a multivitamin daily, and then, once a week, 50K IUs vitamin D - on perscription. Since the XM3 has B6, Chromium, and a natural energy blend from the Moringa, I'm dropping the Concerta, B-complex, and ginseng. I'm also reducing my coffee intake from 3 8oz cups a day to about 6oz in the morning and will take the pill around 2pm. The Smart Mix is to be used first thing in the AM and tea before bed.

I try to work out at least 3 days a week, but the way my work schedule has been going, I haven't been able to do that. I'm pretty tired most of the time, and even with the Concerta, I have trouble focusing and remembering.

I am hoping for more energy, some weight loss, overall improvement in health and concentration levels. I know that's a lot to hope for in just 8 days, but we'll see.

A funny thing happened this morning, (not funny haha, funny strange). I awoke bloated because I ate too late at night. Usually, my solution to that is lots of water and coffee to flush my system and about 6 hours later, I feel better. However, this morning, as soon as I woke up, I went to the restroom, did my business and weighed for this report. I weighed 156.6. I drank the Smart Mix with 8ozs water, (per instructions) and started geting ready for work. Less than an hour later, I had to GO! After the restroom visit, I realized my bloating was gone! I got on the scale and got a surprise; 155.6! Was that the Smart Mix? Coincidence? Hmm. Time will tell.

Tomorrow I will post my results from today.

[Ascinder]

I'm also reducing my coffee intake from 3 8oz cups a day to about 6oz in the morning

What?! NO!!!!!!!!

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy360/ascinder/whatsgoingoninhere.gif?t=1287539365

Sorry, I really love coffee:bwgy:

[Leah]

Hahaha That's hilarious!!! This morning I had to have about 12oz of coffee. I'm SO tired!!!



What?! NO!!!!!!!!

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy360/ascinder/whatsgoingoninhere.gif?t=1287539365

Sorry, I really love coffee:bwgy:

[Leah]

Day 1: (10-19-10) Had a little less energy than usual but my appetite was also down quite a bit. I have a carb addiction and even though I was still craving them...and giving in...it was less daunting than usual. Weighed the same this morning as yesterday, 155.6, but slept better than I normally do. Bonus! No adverse reactions of any kind. Carb cravings were down all day.

Day 2: (10-20-10) I was tired all day and that was even with 24ozs of coffee in me. I just couldn't get going. I expected that, though, since I use Concerta, and when I stop using that, I always have a dip in energy levels. I ate less than usual. Had the tea at bedtime around 9:45.

Day 3: (10-21-10) 154.2 this morning. Slept good. Woke up more alert than normal today and before the alarm went off. Had about 16ozs coffee. That was all I coudl stand, and I LOVE coffee. Carb cravings are pretty bad. Had enough energy and motivation to do a little workout. Since I was so tired yesterday, I decided to take the ginseng, B vitamins, and Chromium Picolinate after breakfast. Doing better today, energy-wise.

[vt_maverick]

I am first going to establish a baseline for comparison: I have ADD and for that I take Concerta. I also take B12, Super B-complex, biotin, ginseng, Chromium Picolinate and a multivitamin daily, and then, once a week, 50K IUs vitamin D - on perscription. Since the XM3 has B6, Chromium, and a natural energy blend from the Moringa, I'm dropping the Concerta, B-complex, and ginseng. I'm also reducing my coffee intake from 3 8oz cups a day to about 6oz in the morning and will take the pill around 2pm. The Smart Mix is to be used first thing in the AM and tea before bed.

I'm confused... which of those products are what we're testing? I thought it was called Zija? Maybe that's what XM3 or Smart Mix are?

Btw, that pic was hilarious. Looks like a 1970s Latin soap opera. :thumbup:

[JHarris1385]

Zija is the brand...it breaks down into the smart mix which is potent Moringa; XM3 is accelerated weight loss (by catalyzing ketosis in the body to burn body fat), and the tea breaks down the now excess body fat floating around.

Some just take the smart mix only. You can still lose weight by just this but just not as quick. It is what I take daily now that I am at optimal weight again.

[Leah]

I'm posting the trial updates in post #41 of this thread. Unfortunately, that doesn't bump the thread to the top. Any suggestions?

[vt_maverick]

I think that's just a "feature" of the site. Question for you though, I'm confused by what you wrote:


I was tired all day and that was even with 24ozs of coffee in me. I just couldn't get going. I expected that, though, since I use Concerta, and when I stop using that, I always have a dip in energy levels. ... Slept good. Woke up more alert than normal today and before the alarm went off.

So does that mean you woke up full of energy but lost it shortly thereafter?

[Leah]

I think that's just a "feature" of the site. Question for you though, I'm confused by what you wrote:



So does that mean you woke up full of energy but lost it shortly thereafter?

I didn't wake up full of energy, sadly, I never do. But the fact that I woke up before the alarm went off was a good thing. AND I didn't need to hit the snooze button. I've had about the same energy all day, today, and that is more energy than I had yesterday. But I also took my regular vitamins today instead of cutting back. I hope that clears things up a bit.

[Leah]

Day 4: 154.6 Feeling okay. Appetite down.

[JHarris1385]

Have you done a tea or two yet? Remember to put it on the stove top and not the microwave as the chemistry changes when microwaved. Most things we put in the mic are for the taste and not the nutritional value.

[vt_maverick]

Day 4: 154.6 Feeling okay. Appetite down.

Are we seeing a trend here? Does this thing suction your energy? By next week we'll be seeing this:


Day?: 14.8.7 I good.

J/k. ;)

[Leah]

Are we seeing a trend here? Does this thing suction your energy? By next week we'll be seeing this:



J/k. ;)

ROFL!!! I had to type quickly because I was at work and barely had time to connect to the internet before moving on to the next job! I have more energy now at 5:PM. I've never been a morning person. I ate way too many carbs yesterday, so I was pleasantly surprised when my weight hardly changed at all. I felt much better today as far as appetite. I will be surprised if I notice a huge difference in energy or weight-loss in just 8 days. I'm willing to go longer, up to a month if necessary, to give this a fair shot.

[PHO2GR4]

I'm reminded of the story "Flowers for Algernon", or the movie "Charly"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062794/

[PHO2GR4]

http://wearscience.com/img450/cheers.gif

[Bob Barker]

today's update???

[VXIRONwoMAN]

However, this morning, as soon as I woke up, I went to the restroom, did my business and weighed for this report. I weighed 156.6. I drank the Smart Mix with 8ozs water, (per instructions) and started geting ready for work. Less than an hour later, I had to GO! After the restroom visit, I realized my bloating was gone! I got on the scale and got a surprise; 155.6! Was that the Smart Mix? Coincidence? Hmm. Time will tell.


Well, whenever anyone goes to the bathroom whatever is excreted is no longer going to add to the reading on the scale. I do it every morning. I wake up hungry, weigh myself, go to the bathroom and weigh less. I eat breakfast and weigh more. It's amazing. There is a 6 pound range I fall into... no breakfast and going to the bathroom I am at 102; A box of Oreo's and a foot long subway while holding it POOF! 108! Been that way for 10 years now.

I think Gill eats when he's at work because he tends to weigh more when he gets home than he did before leaving the house... Maybe he just doesn't go to the bathroom while on the clock? I'll have to ask him about it...

[Leah]

Day 5: 10-23-10 - Weight is the same. Energy levels were low but not unbearable. Went out of town over the weekend and, as always, felt better in the evening.

Day 6: 10-24-10 - Don't have a weight for today as I wasn't near a scale. Feeling great, though. Starving!!! Over-ate at Cracker Barrel, (and I don't even like Cracker Barrel!).

Day 7: 10-25-10 - 156.6!!! Paying for yesterday! But, I am waking up more alert and ready for work than I ever have! This is an unexpected bonus! I have never been a morning person but at least I can think clearly when I first wake up and actually get out of bed without hitting the snooze 6 times!

[Leah]

Well, whenever anyone goes to the bathroom whatever is excreted is no longer going to add to the reading on the scale. I do it every morning. I wake up hungry, weigh myself, go to the bathroom and weigh less. I eat breakfast and weigh more. It's amazing. There is a 6 pound range I fall into... no breakfast and going to the bathroom I am at 102; A box of Oreo's and a foot long subway while holding it POOF! 108! Been that way for 10 years now.

I think Gill eats when he's at work because he tends to weigh more when he gets home than he did before leaving the house... Maybe he just doesn't go to the bathroom while on the clock? I'll have to ask him about it...

Agreed. I usually fluxuate within a 6lb range too. Wish I was at the bottom of that range right now. :(

[Leah]

I'm reminded of the story "Flowers for Algernon", or the movie "Charly"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062794/

I LOVED both of those movies! Lawnmower Man was along the same lines but I didn't like it as well.

Oh...wait a tic...I AM Algernon! Rats!

[JHarris1385]

The lower levels of energy are due to the body being used to the increased levels of caffeine from other sources. And or a mild health crisis as your body is working harder internally to meet an equilibrium. Once this is completed you will feel very different. Its not easy to explain but its like your head is light on your shoulders but not a nauseated feeling at all.

[tom4bren]

Well, whenever anyone goes to the bathroom whatever is excreted is no longer going to add to the reading on the scale. I do it every morning. I wake up hungry, weigh myself, go to the bathroom and weigh less. I eat breakfast and weigh more. It's amazing. There is a 6 pound range I fall into... no breakfast and going to the bathroom I am at 102; A box of Oreo's and a foot long subway while holding it POOF! 108! Been that way for 10 years now.

I think Gill eats when he's at work because he tends to weigh more when he gets home than he did before leaving the house... Maybe he just doesn't go to the bathroom while on the clock? I'll have to ask him about it...

TMI TMI TMI!!!

[nocturnalVX]

I just weighed myself while holding Cece's dog Kahlua, and then re-weighed myself after putting the dog down... I lost almost 30 pounds!!! :yesy:

[VX KAT]

I just weighed myself while holding Cece's dog Kahlua, and then re-weighed myself after putting the dog down... I lost almost 30 pounds!!! :yesy:

http://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/new/Laughing/lol-045.gif (http://www.smileyshut.com/facebook-smileys.html)

[Triathlete]

I just weighed myself while holding Cece's dog Kahlua, and then re-weighed myself after putting the dog down... I lost almost 30 pounds!!! :yesy:

30 pounds? I remember when my dog weighed 30 pounds ...I think he was about 3-4 weeks old!:bwgy:

[JHarris1385]

Tri - I know quite a few triathletes on the smart mix and XM3 drink for the energy and reduced recovery time due to the increased oxygen levels at the cells.

[Grif]

This thread has become a MLM infection. Call it the spam that it is and be done with it IMHO.

[Ascinder]

This thread has become a MLM infection. Call it the spam that it is and be done with it IMHO.

I'm not personally the biggest fan of it either(no offense), but no one is twisting your arm to read it are they?

[Grif]

I'm not personally the biggest fan of it either(no offense), but no one is twisting your arm to read it are they?

Dammit... I just read your post. Quit twisting!!

[vt_maverick]

I'm not personally the biggest fan of it either(no offense), but no one is twisting your arm to read it are they?

x2 - Just don't click...

[tom4bren]

Dammit... I just read your post. Quit twisting!!

X2

Sorry, I was just feeling left out.:)

[circmand]

For once a never ending post where I am not called out for over posting. I will make sure the culprits here never posted about me over doing it

POST ON

[JHarris1385]

It is what it is. However I am not being pushy to even suggest everyone try it. We have all helped out each other in various ways and this is just another form.

[Stephen Biko]

It is what it is. However I am not being pushy to even suggest everyone try it.

The soft-sell is no less a form of selling than the hard-sell. I believe its actually more so because everyone knows the hard-sell when they see it.

Nor is sincerity a defense either, most snake-oil salesmen have an honest, well-meaning, but naive belief in their product. It's only the guys at the top of the pyramids who are the cynical manipulators.

[vt_maverick]

The soft-sell is no less a form of selling than the hard-sell. I believe its actually more so because everyone knows the hard-sell when they see it.

:_wtf: Well there you go JHarris, may as well start threatening people with imminent death if they don't sign up. You guys kill me, why the need to keep trying to vilify the guy? If this thread bothers you, why are you even reading it?

[Leah]

Unfortunately, no weight loss. I was pretty wiped out yesterday afternoon and spent most of the day in bed after working 8 hrs. I slept late today since I didn't have to go in until 3 est. In 8 days, the only thing I noticed improvement on was waking up. But for me, that's pretty significant. I seem to have an allergy to waking up, feeling dizzy, nauseous, depressed, but on the zija products, I have started waking up feeling more alert with no dizziness or nausea (depression at having to work for a living must be standard issue). At the risk of giving TMI, I am attributing my fatigue to hormones and a monthly visit - poor timing.:mado2:

So, all in all, I had a good time with this thread and the trial, and if I had the money, I would go ahead for another 22 days to finish out an entire month to give the product a fair-er chance, but my ticket is used up and I have to get off the ride.

Thanks for the laughs...especially to those of you who loved to look into this thread just to complain about how much you hated looking into this thread! :smilewink

And thanks, John, for your kindness. Hope to see you and your VX again soon.

And on to another guinea-pig project...

[Stephen Biko]

:_wtf: Well there you go JHarris, may as well start threatening people with imminent death if they don't sign up. You guys kill me, why the need to keep trying to vilify the guy? If this thread bothers you, why are you even reading it?

I can't speak for anyone else, but:

(A) This thread does not bother me
(B) Saying the guy is naive is not vilification, condescending perhaps, but so much for political correctness
(C) It is at least as valid to bring logical and rational criticism of claims made in a public forum as it is to make those claims in the first place

Here's another criticism - individual evaluations of this sort will never have meaningful results. It is essentially impossible to control for all possible variables. It is the same effect that results in a market for $500 5-foot ethernet cables. (http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?Catid=5840d55c-4077-4d9e-9421-36f204fb4587&SubId=85958de8-a123-4213-8ae1-bb6afaee9a97&ProductId=f7d26b3a-05a6-4724-a5c1-2a63642a6206) If real science were actually involved instead of just hand-wavingly claimed, there would be results from testing akin to randomized control trials. (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Randomized_controlled_trial) If this stuff really worked as claimed the money that would come as a result of legitimate proof would easily justify the cost of such testing.

[vt_maverick]

I can't speak for anyone else, but:

(A) This thread does not bother me
(B) Saying the guy is naive is not vilification, condescending perhaps, but so much for political correctness
(C) It is at least as valid to bring logical and rational criticism of claims made in a public forum as it is to make those claims in the first place

Well I grant you that you're humble enough to acknowledge the possibility of the former; that's something I have been accused of from time to time so I'd be the last to cast stones. :o As for the latter, I wouldn't argue the value of the debate, I just think the debate should be focused on evaluating the product/manufacturer rather than continuing to cast the OP as a hard-seller (well intentioned or not).

Here's another criticism - individual evaluations of this sort will never have meaningful results. It is essentially impossible to control for all possible variables. It is the same effect that results in a market for $500 5-foot ethernet cables. (http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?Catid=5840d55c-4077-4d9e-9421-36f204fb4587&SubId=85958de8-a123-4213-8ae1-bb6afaee9a97&ProductId=f7d26b3a-05a6-4724-a5c1-2a63642a6206) If real science were actually involved instead of just hand-wavingly claimed, there would be results from testing akin to randomized control trials. (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Randomized_controlled_trial) If this stuff really worked as claimed the money that would come as a result of legitimate proof would easily justify the cost of such testing.
This is a very good point, anyone who ever took a statistics class learned that the larger the sample size the more reliable the results; conversely, the smaller the sample the more susceptible the results are to the myriad factors you mentioned. So I thank Leah for her efforts to document her experience, as we can at least infer that in the short term this supplement (as with almost anything) likely has very little effect. But you're right, anything beyond that is pure conjecture.

[Stephen Biko]

I just think the debate should be focused on evaluating the product/manufacturer rather than continuing to cast the OP as a hard-seller (well intentioned or not).

I was responding to his claim that avoiding the hard-sell made his involvement less about salesmanship. It was at least the second time that he used that argument in this thread. The first time I let it pass since it seemed like a straight-forward non sequitur. But the second time around I thought it deserved a rebuttal.

[JHarris1385]

Actually I am not trying argue. I am not acting like a salesman, because there is no reason for me to. If something came from this post then great, if not, its fine. Consider the crowd this was addressed to...much smaller active number of people than most every other crowd I personally am involved in. If I wanted to really push the product I would offer deals or incentives to try it. I did not. I just let it flow.

However you come to this thread to just purely downgrade the idea in total. Nothing more.
What do you personally get out of this? Do you just like to hop on threads that aggravate you and attempt to tear it apart by the use of hyperlinks? If you don't like it, don't read it. Its simple. If I wanted to spend more time and argue your points I would. But I see that going into circles and being never ending, much like political talk. One I don't want to engage in that and two, I would rather the thread not be turned into a back and forth look at this point, look at this website ordeal.

For Leah's case, I really am happy she posted what she did. It is honestly hard (harder with women) to fully gauge what you can expect to see out of a product with only using it one week. Within this time frame you are only still in the stage of introducing something new to your body and adapting to it. I believe if she was able to buy 2 weeks or so of it then the results would be greater. My assumption would be that she may slowly in the next 4 days or so back into her normal sleep and waking up patterns as the amino acids leave her body.

[Stephen Biko]

What do you personally get out of this?

A community looks out for its members. When someone puts in the effort to do research and apply their experience and critical thinking skills and then shares the results they are contributing to the community.

With that as a baseline, my posts in this thread are at least as valid as yours. Based on the results of the research I've previously cited, and your apoplectic responses, I think they are even more so.

[Luna X]

Leah... since you wake up feeling worse, have you looked into the possibility of sleep apnea?

I dread mornings... killer headaches, lethargic, etc..

I'm supposed to wear a CPAP machine every night, which gives you much needed O2, but it does get frustrating and I usually go to sleep without putting it on. ;(

[tom4bren]

I did a sleep study years ago because of my sleep apnea. The results were: I don't get enough sleep;wtf;

I just live with it - doesn't bother me in the least. Kinda freaks out my wife though.

[JHarris1385]

Luna X - you should if you have not already looking into a mouth appliance for sleep apnea

[tom4bren]

Luna X - you should if you have not already looking into a mouth appliance for sleep apnea

My dentist wasn't too keen on the idea of that. He was going to consult with his partners & get back to me. He just didn't like the idea of spending 1/4 of your life with your jaw forced forward & wanted to check to see if there would be any detrimental effects (long term).

[JHarris1385]

You need to speak to a TMJ specialist versus a typical DMD or DDS.

[tom4bren]

TMJ stands for???

I'm assuming Throat, Mandible, Jaw but that's just a shot in the dark.

[VX KAT]

TMJ stands for???

I'm assuming Throat, Mandible, Jaw but that's just a shot in the dark.

Nope, sorry...no soup for you!
Temporomandibular joint

[tom4bren]

Of course it does. I think there's 3 of those specialists in Fredericksburg.:luck:

[JHarris1385]

Yes there you go. For proper advice you need more than knowledge beyond teeth, dentin and so forth. If you lived closer I would recommended someone but...He fixed my friends dad who had to be hooked up a a breathing machine at night with a mask.

[Luna X]

teeth grinding IS another bad thing I do while sleeping...

Biggest problem is that insurance doesn't cover tmj.... doesn't make any sense I have a lot of pain in my neck, jaw temples and they don't recognize a nite-guard as something beneficial?!.... Ah, just write him another prescription, it's fine. :(

[JHarris1385]

I hate typical internal medicine. They rely so heavily on returning clients that its now the norm to just give a prescription and say come back next month or so.

I will email a few about this and see what options you may have if any given your distance.

[JHarris1385]

Leah's main issue was taking the teas back to back instead of skipping a day or two inbetween. This was driving the toxins out at a faster than normal pace. The body was using alot of internal energy to rid of the excess. I wish we were able to test her PH levels, if she lived closer we could have.

[Leah]

Leah... since you wake up feeling worse, have you looked into the possibility of sleep apnea?

I dread mornings... killer headaches, lethargic, etc..

I'm supposed to wear a CPAP machine every night, which gives you much needed O2, but it does get frustrating and I usually go to sleep without putting it on. ;(

Hi Luna,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have had some form of insomnia for many years. It usually takes me a couple of hours to fall asleep and then I wake up about every hour and a half after that. By the time the morning rolls around, I'm exhausted. I just got some Ambian from the doctor but I can't take it unless I know I can sleep for 8 uninterupted hours. With my work schedule the way it is, I haven't been able to try it yet, but I hope to, tomorrow night.

There has been some conjecture that the reason for my insomnia is a trained response over the years of living with my ex and fearing for my life. The belief is that, as time goes by and I feel safer and get used to the idea that I don't have to stay somewhat alert all the time, that I will relax and be able to get a good night's sleep. I actually am sleeping better than I was 6 months ago, and truthfully, I slept better during the time on the zija products...but I couldn't say for sure why or that it had 100% to do with it. Hormones are so fickle at my age. :upsetgray:mady:

[JHarris1385]

A community looks out for its members. When someone puts in the effort to do research and apply their experience and critical thinking skills and then shares the results they are contributing to the community.

With that as a baseline, my posts in this thread are at least as valid as yours. Based on the results of the research I've previously cited, and your apoplectic responses, I think they are even more so.

Quite honestly your posts and multiple references to additional links did not highlight any fault or harm that would be caused by the consumption of Zija or Moringa. More so and in addition they also did not disprove anything I posted either. I completely understand looking out for the community here as I have shared for years any advice I can give or suggested to stray away from something. However with this being harmless and only beneficial, your attempts, post no merit other than potential personal gains.

For whomever has an issue with this being branded as an MLM or something of that nature. We can boil it down to this: yes it could be a potential income source from introducing this to you all. While some may have a problem with that, I do not have a problem with other members selling parts for profit either fabricated or extras. Everyone has their own personal reasoning of what motivates them to sell anything on here be auto like or else. To be open and honest with you...have you ever seen a student loan bill for graduate or med school?

With that being said, I honestly did not want to post the above in response to any negativity in hopes it would die down. However I felt that I had a point to make both that nothing was pinpointed to be harmful in anyway and that if advertising on here is wrong, then I apologize, as I was not aware of where the line should have been drawn.

Zija and Moringa is actually helping a lot of local people, in many ways. It would be of great benefit to me as the informant and you to be able to hear first hand. However due to my location I am not surrounded by many others on here. I do have a relative and she has about 10 friends on it out in San Fran, if anyone would like to speak to her. I feel as though I have given adequate information on this and you can take it or leave it. 1. It IS a great product, and is a see it to believe it and 2. It is a source of side income (who wouldn't want that)

[JHarris1385]

Just in case here is the facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Zija-for-a-better-life-Moringa/124800087566315

[Stephen Biko]

Quite honestly your posts and multiple references to additional links did not highlight any fault or harm that would be caused by the consumption of Zija or Moringa.That's absolutely true,
but completely irrelevant.
What my research turned up was:

Your claims of "science" were all hokum -- you cited articles that were merely literature surveys.
Your use of the Johns Hopkins imprimatur was undeserved -- the guy at JHU was a non-tenure track prof studying broccoli
Your claims of "peer review" were overblown -- when the editor in chief is also an article's author it is a conflict of interest.
That there is a tremendous amount of Zija marketing hype on the very website you linked to.



I felt that I had a point to make both that nothing was pinpointed to be harmful in anywayI wrote that the vegetable is a common crop on the indian sub-continent, that's pretty much the opposite of claiming it is harmful. You are the only person in this entire thread to bring up the question of potential harm. I think you brought it up as a red herring so you could vent your frustration at having your faith in this vegetable called into question.


I honestly did not want to post the above in response to any negativity in hopes it would die down.Coming back a week after the last post in the thread with a made-up grievance is really more of a way to kick it up a notch. Instead, I recommend simply avoiding outrageous and unsupportable claims. I guarantee that will keep me from responding.


your attempts, post no merit other than potential personal gainsI have so much to gain because I am selling the anti-scam - everybody give me your money and I will research and debunk specious claims from MLM converts. I even did the first one "at cost" - so it's like I'm not even actually selling anything.


For whomever has an issue with this being branded as an MLM or something of that nature.The reason people have an issue with the MLM is that legitimate MLMs are as scarce as hen's teeth. Coming out full-throttle with appeals to authority like indiscriminately citing "peer review," claiming PubMed is "top tier," trying to blind us with 'science' and your acceptance to medical school only increase the skepticism.

I don't doubt your sincerity one iota, you clearly have a belief in this vegetable that leaves no room for doubt.
And that is what I have an issue with.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
-Bertrand Russell

[JHarris1385]

This is ridiculous.

This has turned into something that mimics a political debate, as I throw something out there and you have spun it around to make it look bad, but really it doesn't count.

You have an issue with a man that holds an Doctorate of Science because he happens to work not only for John Hopkins School of Medicine but Trees for Life? Both of those two are completely fine in my books and that should be the same for everyone. He wrote a review paper referencing some 100+ sources and you act like it means nothing? No doctor, no person with a higher degree, nor a School like JH will ever allow something to have their name on it if they did not fully back it. That is common sense. So that point - means zero.

Seems your main issue is it is some form MLM or direct sales or so forth. And if this was not the case I would not have you to deal with.

Now I don't really want to compare Zija and Moringa to others like in the same sales style category but....I can almost guarantee that someone if not quite a few have pampered chef utensils in their kitchen. Am I right? This is another company that decided to sell this way, and is not a bad product and in fact is pretty good. I can name a few more too. So my point is just because it is set up this way does not make an inferior product. It was their choice to do it this way after expanding their product line and taking it off the shelves in 2004. Think about it, on the shelf you have to advertise this new product in a more typical fashion. The way it is now you have true users of it doing face to face marketing, which is much more affective. Affective because on the shelf the average person will not take much time to really read about it and try to personally distinguish it from the rest. However when face to face there will be time.

There is nothing in this message that you can spin around and make it look bad. However given your history, you will find a way to make what you say look important with your ample free time to waste on such a product. Then once again I will have to debunk it. We are much of a family here, and my point of it not being harmful, proclaims that there is no reason for you to do what you have done. Thank you for high jacking this thread to this extreme. You need a crash course in VehiCross threads 101.

[Ascinder]

:drama::badhorse::drama:

[Osteomata]

I'm impressed. By the critique, that is. I haven't been logged in to Vehicross Info in a while, but it is pretty gratifying to see that inside of four responses and someone points out the whole thing is an MLM product, and Biko takes the time to research and point out the psuedo pscientific nonsense surrounding this wonder cure. How many things has the OP claimed this miracle product can help wiht so far? I lost count.

Thanks, Stephen Biko, for taking the time. Especially loved the challenge of the OPs appeal to authority. Plus, anyone who signs off with Bertrand Russell is OK in my book

The most potent weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed.
- SB

[JHarris1385]

Knowledge is power - JRH 2010

Fact: He was not able to point out any nonsense within it. More so was only able to point out that the author of the John Hopkins review paper was also working for Trees for Life. That doesn't make it any less credible.

Fact: I figured there would be more here that were open minded.

Fact: Is a MLM/Direct Marketing, who cares, that does not make it and inferior product.

Fact: Too many people locally with great stories and results as well as nationwide and other countries.

Thanks for your understanding.

[JHarris1385]

Quite honestly do you think I thought it would not be brought up that this was set up the way it is? I insisted on anyone googling it if they wanted to. In addition, if it came down to it how else would I introduce the business side of it without informing of this?

It does not bother me of how it is set up. Many people around us work for or share products from companies. This one just happens to be one of the few that is more so medicinal.

[Osteomata]

Knowledge is power - JRH 2010

Fact: He was not able to point out any nonsense within it. More so was only able to point out that the author of the John Hopkins review paper was also working for Trees for Life. That doesn't make it any less credible.

Fact: I figured there would be more here that were open minded.

Fact: Is a MLM/Direct Marketing, who cares, that does not make it and inferior product.

Fact: Too many people locally with great stories and results as well as nationwide and other countries.

Thanks for your understanding.

You seem confused as to the definition of a fact, as yours' are not, actually.

Opinion: I think he pretty skillfully pointed out the nonsense you are selling.
Opinion: Your second point is pretty much the definition of an opinion. You figured...
Opinion: MLM marketing is often scams, and what is not a scam is often useless, regardless of the True Believers selling it. Like your product, for instance.
Opinion: The plural of anecdote is not evidence, despite your just so stories and personal testimonies.

[VX KAT]

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/42kmoig.gif

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/gun.gif

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/kap.gif
http://www.pic4ever.com/images/gaah.gif

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/4fvgdaq_th.gif
Argh!!!! Make it stop, please!!!!!!




yes, I know I could just stop reading the thread...but IMO it'd be nicer if it just ceased......Just IMHO :wave:

[Ascinder]

Argh!!!! Make it stop, please!!!!!!




yes, I know I could just stop reading the thread...but IMO it'd be nicer if it just ceased......Just IMHO

X2 Seriously you guys need to just agree to disagree. Just let it go. No really, no response is needed. You don't even need to reply. Just let sleeping dogs lie. Just accept there are conflicting views and live with it. Why even try to support your point against someone who is absolutely opposed to your point of view? It's like trying to convince Nazis to support Judiasm or making communists see the virtues of capitalism. YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME!!!. You have already convinced anyone who is remotely aligned to your point of view already. Seriously arguing this thread is wasting time past this point. Figure it out. That is not meant as a challenge to post a rebuttal, but a call to stop posting so this thread doesn't keep finding it's way to the top. Myself, and a great many others are tired of having to sift through your tirades to see posts that actually have a legitimate meaning to something relating to the topic of a goddamn vehi-cross. Soapbox session: OVER!

[Stephen Biko]

YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME!!!.
...
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on me.


Sounds like it might be time for a new .sig there.

[Stephen Biko]

Sorry guys, but the irony is just too great for me not to make one truely self-indulgent post here. I apologize for the fit of incoherence that is sure to follow. Really, I do.

Turns out there really is something to JRH's theory about moringa being harmful. It is a good thing he brought it up.

You know that survey paper that Johns Hopkins "fully backs" just because a guy studying broccoli at JHU wrote it? That paper includes a study -- one that used real science to compare the effects of feeding ground-up moringa seeds to rats versus a standard laboratory baseline diet of egg-white protein.

Guess what? Eating moringa caused those rats to suffer "loss of appetite, impaired growth, lower NPU and enlargement of stomach, small intestine, caecum+colon, liver, pancreas, kidneys, heart and lungs and atrophy of thymus and spleen."

See for yourself it is reference #112 in the "Johns Hopkins Paper" (http://www.tfljournal.org/article.php/20051201124931586#_Ref113759315)

Here's the abstract of the study itself, just a paragraph long in reasonably plain english. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/%28SICI%291097-0010%2819990501%2979:6%3C815::AID-JSFA290%3E3.0.CO;2-P/abstract)

So there you have it, Johns Hopkins says moringa can cause impaired growth plus enlargement of many important organs in the body. Remember, "No doctor, no person with a higher degree, nor a School like JH will ever allow something to have their name on it if they did not fully back it. That is common sense." So it must be true.

If it weren't for JRH's meticulous understanding of academia and scientific research that brought the "JHU paper" to our attention we would never have learned how dangerous this plant is. If you don't want your organs to swell up, avoid it!

PS, moringa makes a good pesticide too. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19747711) Lollers!

[JHarris1385]

In reference to your pesticide post - We should all be aware from basic science knowledge that plants have natural ways or warding off potential predators by things internal or as simple as sight or smell. What you have posted is a link from pubmed that states the lectin within does just this. We have lectin right now in our bodies. Some lectin is good some bad and some are bad or good to other forms of life and not us. Now considering we do not share the same circulatory or digestive tracks of a flying insect this does not harm us. I can easily go into more detail but maybe I need to keep this basic.

In reference to your rat post - This is not as easily explained in basic form. So follow me...your post stated that the seeds have a deficient levels of the amino acids lysine, threonine and valine. Well first, lysine in a rat is the first limiting amino acid. Which means if in low volumes of what is needed, alters the protein synthesis cycle within during translation/transcription/DNA/RNA process. So this means the rats were fed a diet that malnourished them. An effect of being malnourished is enlarged bloating gut and organs. As stated this alters the protein cycle of building your cells correctly. This would create a mutation in the line up of your amino acids, possibly leading to a missense mutation. Lysine comes from the leaves of the plant.


Are we done yet? I feel I did quite a good job.

I agree you don't like anything about this. We have gotten way off course. Could you find it possible to cease your posts of negativity? There has not been once I was not able to show you the other side of things. I would like to continue to post positive things about this as you have been more than able to make your point and steer anyone away from this at this point.


Like I said this is science.

[JHarris1385]

P.S. - Have you paid your dues for this site? Or are you using it for free?

[Stephen Biko]

Now considering we do not share the same circulatory or digestive tracks of a flying insect this does not harm us. I can easily go into more detail but maybe I need to keep this basic.

Awful lot of generalization there - you seem exceptionally confident that there is nothing more to the effect. That's an unsupported conclusion. Especially given that those same researchers followed up on mosquito testing and found an effect on the thymus just from subcutaneously injecting rats with moringa -- rather than making it their sole source of protein like the other researchers did.

Either way though, kudos for not going all rabid this time. What's kinda odd is how your writing style is so much more cogent, much better grammar, tighter sentence construction and reduced rambling. It's almost like someone else's writing.


Like I said this is science.

No, it is not. Science requires the use of the scientific method - not literature surveys and bad logic.


Could you find it possible to cease your posts of negativity? There has not been once I was not able to show you the other side of things

If you stop making outrageous and unsupported claims I will stop calling you out on them. And no, there really has been only once you've been able to show "the other side of things" - just because I haven't called you out on every fallacy doesn't mean they weren't fallacies. Most of them I figured were self-evident enough that they didn't even need to be disputed.


P.S. - Have you paid your dues for this site? Or are you using it for free?

Hey there it is! I've been expecting you try to chase me off by questioning my right to be here.

I've been around here since before you even knew what a VX was.
I was around to buy one of the first few superchargers from Tone and before that the interceptor as well as a bunch of his other accessories and I wouldn't be surprised if I've contributed 10x the dollars to funding this site that you have.

The thing is I would NEVER even imply that you didn't have the right to post here, but it looks like that's your goto tactic. First you complained about my non-VX posts in a non-VX thread that you started in the non-VX forum. Then you hypocritically accused me of have something to gain by debunking some of your outrageous claims. And then, in the most transparent display of frustration yet, you try to get all holier-than-thou but totally misfire. Seems like a major self-esteem issue to me - so much hyperbole and bluster when you don't get your way.

[circmand]

[U]


I agree you don't like anything about this. We have gotten way off course. Could you find it possible to cease your posts of negativity? There has not been once I was not able to show you the other side of things. I would like to continue to post positive things about this as you have been more than able to make your point and steer anyone away from this at this point.


Like I said this is science.

And to question if someone else on here has a right to post?

I would have expected better from you. As many here know I fully support anyone posting anything on here that is not an attack on another poster. To suggest you should be allowed to post about a non VX product, something you have been against before, but another does not have the right to question what may be a legimate counter arguement is wrong. And then to try to embaress a long time visitor to this site by question whether he has made a voluntary donation just compounds the issue

[BigSwede]

I just wanna hear more about enlargement of organs...if this effect could be targeted to certain organs you could make some serious money!

[Ascinder]

I just wanna hear more about enlargement of organs...if this effect could be targeted to certain organs you could make some serious money!

Plus you could use the organ enlarging effect to help end the pissing contest this thread has turned into!:yesy:

[JHarris1385]

So with all that being said.....

WHO WANTS IT?!?!?!

I almost died yesterday, I was about an hour late drinking my Smart Mix.

[VX KAT]

Plus you could use the organ enlarging effect to help end the pissing contest this thread has turned into!:yesy:

http://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/new/free-happy-smileys-317[1].gif

[Moncha]

Sounds like we may be getting ready to kill another horse...

I wanted to see how long this one would go. Normally, non-VX related wares aren't allowed. Save for a few autos and stereos etc... they rarely break out into this kind of song and dance.

Just a polite reminder, donations don't give rights to one over the other. A donation only gives a member more photo and message space and convenience features.

[Ldub]

I almost died yesterday, I was about an hour late drinking my Smart Mix.

So...maybe wait longer next time?....:laughing:

If you become that dependent on a MLM suppliment, I suggest that either your brain is a bit wiggly, or you'd be better off on some really hard drugs, at least with the hard drugs, you know the supply will always be there...:yesgray:

Seriously, try noni juice, but don't settle for anything less than "pure tahitian"...:smilewink
BTW, the aunt I mentioned towards the beginning of this thread, is now taking a permanent dirt nap...:_confused
She was also a "mondo beyondo" conservative zealot, who told jesus when she should be going, then cursed him for not taking her into heaven on her time table...gotta l:heart:ve zealots of any stripe, they're SO entertaining...:yesgray:

Blatant jack of an R-tard thread...good ta see ya posting Boss Man...:yes:

[Ldub]

Plus you could use the organ enlarging effect to help end the pissing contest this thread has turned into!:yesy:

Not to mention the uptic in organ sales on the black market...:yesgray:

[Grif]

OMFG... who keeps bumping up this thread??

[JHarris1385]

Ldub - Zija used to be on the shelf. Then went this way for profits and face to face marketing in a saturated market if not able to distinguish itself, being that it has set itself as a premium product. Can't blame them in a way can you? I used to take Noni and thought it was working but found myself slowly not taking it and then to the point of never buying it. See Noni is MorinDa and the buck pretty much stops at antioxidants. Zija with MorinGa, is supposedly what I said it is (beyond just antiox). Funny how they are such similar named, I confused them at first. When first told what Zija was, I said, been there tried that...thinking it was Noni or Monavie. But it was a "G". Some MorinDa drinks or Noni are set up the same way and you just do not know it.

The reason I have tried many things is because I am a lifelong chronic migraine sufferer. I have done it all when it comes to tests, and taken it all when it comes to preventative and prescription after onset. I have had migraines since 4yrs old, so it has become a quest of mine. I have tracked my migraines since on Zija and will continue till a 6 month mark and year mark and compare. Short term it seems to be working, but I want to fully make sure its just not environmental as well. For example next semester should be much more stressful and will be a good comparison.


As for the donation line: I admit it was worded wrong. What I wanted to get across is I see a member from 2009, marked a Super Vxer, post mainly on topics non auto related and almost only when he disagrees to the fullest extent. Whether that is right or wrong or allowed or frowned upon, you can not blame me for being aggravated in this situation. I have spent more time answering his questioning of the supplement, than I have been able to provide additional information. I strongly believe I was able to support my claims and the claims of others that it is beneficial. If I have to get more scientific I will, each and every time, however its is much easier with my demanding schedule to do otherwise. That is why I asked for it to stop, versus telling him. Even said "could you find it possible" which is quite polite.

However I was not the first to mention this to someone, nor will I be the last. It has been said many times before to people "using the site for free". I am fully aware it is a "donation" and what it grants you with extras.

Lastly and for the record..this line is indeed a fact, as I did think this.
Fact: I figured there would be more here that were open minded


Currently...my wife's cousin has lost 15 pounds since Oct, 24th.
And honestly it is a good source of side income thus far. My goal is to pay off student loans with it and hopefully make enough monthly to not work and pick up even more classes at school as a result.

[Ldub]

My goal is to pay off student loans with it and hopefully make enough monthly to not work and pick up even more classes at school as a result.

Oh...that pretty much explains why you were so kind as to "offer" it to the rest 0f us undereducated "plebes"...I guess I should be thanking you...:rolleyesg

Don't hold yer breath, you'll have another near death experience.:slap:

[JHarris1385]

I never said anyone was undereducated. Just stated my goals. I don't want to come off that way. We each have our own hobbies, oddly one of mine is learning..yeah its weird, I admit. I am always open ears to anyone that has lived experiences that I have not or knows things I don't. An old neighbor taught me this and I admire it.

[JHarris1385]

I want to thank everyone that has messaged me here recently, concerning all subjects of this thread, whether it be for the product or their beliefs and opinions that reassembled mine.

This illustrates that the Vx community does indeed have members with the ability to see past one's personal hatred.

Thanks again - I will be ordering a bunch here soon and should have enough samples to send out to those that are interested. I understand any desires to keep all information private through the pm system.

[Stephen Biko]

As for the donation line: I admit it was worded wrong. What I wanted to get across is I see a member from 2009, marked a Super Vxer, post mainly on topics non auto related and almost only when he disagrees to the fullest extent. Whether that is right or wrong or allowed or frowned upon, you can not blame me for being aggravated in this situation.

Seems like it was worded exactly right to me. You were aggravated by what I had to say so you attacked the messenger with anything you could think of. You might just as well have responded by typing "I HATE YOU" about 500 times in a row.


That is why I asked for it to stop, versus telling him. Even said "could you find it possible" which is quite polite.

If I asked you politely to stop posting in this thread, would you? I don't think so.
Don't you see that as even the least bit narcissistic?
You've made 4x as many posts in this thread as I have, do you also need to shut me up too?

[tom4bren]

I was feeling left out again so felt the need to add to the drivel.

I miss ephedra

Ephedra was my friend.

[circmand]

I was feeling left out again so felt the need to add to the drivel.

I miss ephedra

Ephedra was my friend.

I miss ephedra too. That stuff worked and kept you up

[JHarris1385]

Only the non-selective, beta agonists, alkaloids of ephedra were banned.

[tom4bren]

Only the non-selective, beta agonists, alkaloids of ephedra were banned.

:_brickwal

Musta been too many of those when I was a kid. I'm college edumacated n all but I still only heard:

Blah, blah, blah ... ephedra were banned.

:) sorry Dude, get out your crayons and tell me what that means.

[JHarris1385]

haha....It means you can still purchase ephedra.

It just is not advertised anymore like it was. Most people when they see the word ephedra think of the harms and stray away from it, so it is bad for sales. So companies do not boldly print it anymore.

[circmand]

i still look for mini thins in the convenience stores and they now have cafeine and no ephedra. So since the effective ingredients are taken out that means its banned. That like saying McDonalds cant use beef or sodium anymore but you cab still purchase a Bic Mac, which now of course is ToFurkey and tastes like crap

[JHarris1385]

There is good ephedra that does not effect your brain or circulation like the bad. Ill pm you.

[JHarris1385]

Anybody in here drink diet sodas or use artificial sweeteners such as aspartame?

[VXR]

Anybody in here drink diet sodas or use artificial sweeteners such as aspartame?

No way! That stuff will kill you:yesb:

[circmand]

No way! That stuff will kill you:yesb:

There is nothing out there even the air we breath and water we drink that science hasnt had a test that shows its killing us. I give scientists the same credibility I give the media. All they want is to get published and get a government grant so its hype hype hype. In the 70s they all warned us of the coming ice age now its the threat of global warming. What ever happened to the ice age? Now I'm not saying there isnt stuff out there that can kill you Im just saying you cant know what it is because the hype says everything can

[JHarris1385]

Here is a short summary of it:

The gustatory perception (taste) of anything sweet triggers a release of insulin into your bloodstream because your body thinks it needs to deal with sugar. Since there is no sugar to be dealt with, the insulin released causes increased fatty acid synthesis, causing fat cells to take in blood lipids, creating triglycerides. High levels of triglycerides in the bloodstream can cause atherosclerosis as well as increased risk of heart disease and stroke.

Furthermore and in general, drinking diet sodas or using an artificial sweetener is far worse for your body than drinking a regular soda or using natural sweeteners, like sucrose. Most artificially sweetened products contain aspartame to give it a sweet taste. When ingested, aspartame breaks down into various other compounds including Methanol and Formaldehyde


Yup, nothing that tastes good is good for us. I personally can not drink artificial sweeteners due to getting an immediate migraine; same for anything with MSG in it. I can't stand to drink just pure water either, tea is my choice.

To be even more open...I eat pizza or a pizza like sub 4-5 days a week. I was still able to lose weight with this stuff and continue to eat the same. However I have always been an athletic build with probably pretty high metabolism. Pizzas can be made "bad" but overall it is not too bad if you know what you are doing.

[Bob Barker]

Here is a short summary of it:

The gustatory perception (taste) of anything sweet triggers a release of insulin into your bloodstream because your body thinks it needs to deal with sugar. Since there is no sugar to be dealt with, the insulin released causes increased fatty acid synthesis, causing fat cells to take in blood lipids, creating triglycerides. High levels of triglycerides in the bloodstream can cause atherosclerosis as well as increased risk of heart disease and stroke.

Furthermore and in general, drinking diet sodas or using an artificial sweetener is far worse for your body than drinking a regular soda or using natural sweeteners, like sucrose. Most artificially sweetened products contain aspartame to give it a sweet taste. When ingested, aspartame breaks down into various other compounds including Methanol and Formaldehyde


Yup, nothing that tastes good is good for us. I personally can not drink artificial sweeteners due to getting an immediate migraine; same for anything with MSG in it. I can't stand to drink just pure water either, tea is my choice.

To be even more open...I eat pizza or a pizza like sub 4-5 days a week. I was still able to lose weight with this stuff and continue to eat the same. However I have always been an athletic build with probably pretty high metabolism. Pizzas can be made "bad" but overall it is not too bad if you know what you are doing.

This is the first post in this thread that I enjoyed reading.


except for the one about zombies.

[Ascinder]

So what about stevia which south americans have been utilizing since the dawn of time with no adverse effects? Seems like it's sweet with little to no insulin response.

[JHarris1385]

For now I will say this:

You know honestly... I do not know a whole lot on Stevia. Ill get back to you on that. Ill read into it and talk around. Interesting. I have never tried it as I am worried about triggering a migraine. I can however consume organic fructose.

Actually aspartame was first approved in 74 then revoked, then 7 years later re-approved. Revoked due to a neuroscientist findings, then re-approved under what has been said to have been studies with faulty findings on the incorrect parts of the brain and body to the company's benefit.

[JHarris1385]

In the meantime who eats, drinks organic?

This topic is interesting. At least I think.

[ZEUS]

I prefer sativa to stevia any day... not insulin response at all.

[Moncha]

I was feeling left out again so felt the need to add to the drivel.

I miss ephedra

Ephedra was my friend.

I miss my head itching!

[Anita]

I prefer gin to vodka. :p

[JHarris1385]

Can't stand gin. One bad experience and the hint of a Christmas tree smell and I will never touch it again.


So who buys organic?

[ZEUS]

Too expensive. I buy whatever I can afford, tastes good, or will get me fugged up. I am very fortunate to have never had a cavity (I get a teeth cleaning every 10 years or so), shave once a week (my face too), get the mane trimmed every 3 or months, have the same athletic/lean physique I had at 20, eat whatever I want, drink whatever I want, ___ ___ever I want... I pay for it with the skin of a ginger kid and poor outlook on life tho. See and you thought I was some God-like human hater or... Wait, this isn't facebook! OH CRAP!

[JHarris1385]

After maybe a couple more reply I will show or tell what I know or my opinions.

[Ascinder]

I look for organic when I can but it's no dealbreaker for me. I grew up on the same processed crap as everyone else, and all I have to show for it is a lack of sickness and general good health. I do like that organic is supposedly less processed, but I am also aware that a lot of that is bunk as well. You can only do some much control the purity of your food at any point from it's inception to your consumption. I view organics as a definite step in the right direction, but they are hard to wrap your head around. I look at organic produce that's not as big, not as, ripe, not as perfect as "normal" produce, and the organics are 2-3 times the price, sometimes more. Having said that, I am a convert to organic eggs. They fall into the same expensive category, but I can say first hand there is a difference. There are also huge differences between organic brands. Some are almost the same as the normal stuff while some are very high quality and worth it in my book. In my opinion, organics aren't going to save you, but if you're going to make the effort to eat healthy in the first place, why not give yourself every advantage possible. I eat probably 25% organic. At the end of the day it's about a reasonable balance. You are never going to stick to something you can't get along with, I have been eating quasi-healthy for most of my adult life. I try to slip in enough wholesome foods so I don't feel bad about indulging in junk foods and beer on occasion.

[Scott Harness]

have the same athletic/lean physique I had at 20, eat whatever I want, drink whatever I want, ___ ___ever I want.. See and you thought I was some God-like human hater or... Wait, this isn't facebook! OH CRAP!

LOL...Me Too:yesb:

[JHarris1385]

So within the time of this thread....I started my neighbor on Zija. In 5 weeks he has lost 27lbs.


Organic Foods:
I will put them into two categories:
Don't waste your money
and
If you can afford it

Don't waste your money:
Produce/Fruits/Vegetables

If you can afford it:
Eggs
Milk
Beef

Its that easy. No studies so an overwhelming reason to eat organic produce. However, with eggs, you have to try them to believe it. I like them, but honestly I don't always fork the 3x for them. Milk tastes better organic, but I am a milk drinker and $4 a half gallon is about $8 weekly for me! However it is making its way into my fridge way more often than in the past. The extra chemicals in non-organic is something to think about. Beef - its just better for you all around.

[vt_maverick]

Nooooo... I thought this thread had finally died! :_confused ;) :p

[JHarris1385]

Never!

As long as I keep getting emailed. I will keep updating this.

Its helping people in multiple ways. You will see soon enough.

[circmand]

Never!

As long as I keep getting emailed. I will keep updating this.

Its helping people in multiple ways. You will see soon enough.

If you keep getting emailed email them back;)

Die thread die

[JHarris1385]

I have and will.

This thread is helpful.
Who would not want to be more healthy?

So much negativity when there is much more controversial topics and threads started.

[ZEUS]

Ya know, maybe there is something to what you are saying about this stuff... maybe not... but I hope you don't mind me asking... How's business? I have a friend who is, sadly, always down for MLM.

[JHarris1385]

Honestly well. I have only started the business side since August. I do not have much time to do as much as I would like with it. Most of my time is spent updating a page like this or facebook. But I have over 50 "under me." Only a third are mine. It sells its self. I double to triple my product purchases monthly.

This is my first and only. What state are they in?

[Ldub]

I prefer gin to vodka. :p

As Mbeach once said..."I like toast"...:yesgray:

[JHarris1385]

http://www.zijateamelite.com/weight%20management.html

Quite a number of them come to our town weekly.

You can scroll and find other testimonies on pain, blood levels and allergies...etc.

[ZEUS]

Honestly well. I have only started the business side since August. I do not have much time to do as much as I would like with it. Most of my time is spent updating a page like this or facebook. But I have over 50 "under me." Only a third are mine. It sells its self. I double to triple my product purchases monthly.

This is my first and only. What state are they in?
Yeah, sounds oh so familiar. LOL He's here in Utah... He talked me into buying into TVI Express... and it did cross my mind to post about it here for all those reasons you listed. But I always knew someone was getting the raw deal below me and I couldn't get into it. Never even took my free vacation.. :(

So yeah if anyone wants to get into TVI Express because it really is a good deal that sells itself at exponential growth get a hold of me! LOL :p

[JHarris1385]

Ill show you a tax statement if you need be; at the end of the year.

There is no other company with this support. I was skeptic, still am, I have to be to stay on my toes and not get comfortable. I stopped for a full week and it was the first time in a while I had to hit the medicine cabinet for pain meds for my back.

Try it - you have nothing to lose.

I would not get into any other form of this, too time consuming, too many in it, and lack of support.

[vt_maverick]

Honestly well. I have only started the business side since August. I do not have much time to do as much as I would like with it. Most of my time is spent updating a page like this or facebook. But I have over 50 "under me." Only a third are mine. It sells its self. I double to triple my product purchases monthly.

This is my first and only. What state are they in?

Is that 50 salesmen? What does it mean that "Only a third are mine."? Just curious...

[ZEUS]

Pyramid scheme. The person at the top recruits someone who then falls beneath them in the pyramid. The more you bring in the more incentives you're offered. So when your recruit recruits someone else they fall into your pyramid but they are not "yours". The bigger your pyramid the more successful you become... supposedly exponentially. JH will correct me where I'm wrong or spin it like a true MLMer... :P

[vt_maverick]

Duh Zeus (;)) - But in the typical MLM scheme, how do you have people under you who aren't yours? :confused: Hence why I quote JHarris saying "Only a third are mine."

[circmand]

Bernie Madoff is looking for a new scheme he can do from his cell maybe he will sign up.

Lets be honest there isnt a diet or organic or wellness or whatever you call it plan out there that doesnt promise the same results. They alll have statements and affadavits from many satisfied customers that shows it works. I would bet there were conman cavemen pushing the benefits of raw Pteradactil meat as it would gve you strengths and the abiility to fly. The two things they all have in common is educated medical experts all agree they do not work and in some cases unhealthy and next year the pushers or some one else will have a new scheme to seperate you from your money. Studies show the improvements that actually are seen are usually psychosamatic. The proported illnesses were mostly mental and the users beleif cured them not the snake oil.

I have kept from adding this negative evaluation out of consideration and not wishing to be harsh but if the thread is going to continue and turn this forum into a off topic informercial I will add my opinion

[JHarris1385]

It is set up differently than other typical MLMs, so I am told. Zues is on the right path. Like my mom who has lost 15+ pounds, decided she might as well take advantage of the business side, since she is being asked by all her friends and co-workers. I don't know her co-workers, nor did I introduce it to them, so they are not really mine personally, but I do benefit from this. Nor is anyone out there all for themselves. Anyone above me can add to me, if they see I need it or just plain want to.

Lets also be honest - there is no other supplement on the market today with this support. I will say again, you will see.

Think about this. If I did not personally feel its working and has worked for me, then why would I go through the trouble and post on this forum. I know how we can be to outside things, so I knew what the potential response I would get. If I did not find it worth my troubles to post here then I would not have. However as you can tell it is worth it in my mind.

Seriously, if it did not work, get your money back.

[JHarris1385]

I also have Zero "salesmen", all are family and friends or friends of family. Just personal users of it.

[vt_maverick]

Like my mom who has lost 15+ pounds, decided she might as well take advantage of the business side, since she is being asked by all her friends and co-workers.

I hate to tell you but your mom is the definition of a saleswoman.

[JHarris1385]

A salesman or woman approaches a customer, not the other way around.

At least thats how I look at it.

If she is or isn't - who cares, I don't. At least she is helping others with their issues.

[JHarris1385]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqPBmERC7OU

discovery channel on Moringa.

[JHarris1385]

Rwanda: planted 400,000 to assist their issues

http://allafrica.com/stories/200711050113.html

A country like this would not spend its income on anything like this if it was not seen and witnessed to help.

[VXR]

Organic Foods:
Don't waste your money:
Produce/Fruits/Vegetables

If you can afford it:
Eggs
Milk
Beef



I agree. I try to buy organic on any animal product because of hormones and antibiotics.:yesb:

[JHarris1385]

I talked my mother into a Free Range Turkey for Thanksgiving. Looking forward to it. I have had free range chicken but not a turkey yet.

[JHarris1385]

Another source....

http://moringafact.com/wp-content/uploads/Moringa-Bood-from-Ghana.pdf

From the Moringa Association of Ghana.

[Grif]

I talked my mother into a Free Range Turkey for Thanksgiving. Looking forward to it. I have had free range chicken but not a turkey yet.

"Free Range" is a joke. According to the FDA to be labeled "Free Range" the animal must have access to outdoor feeding areas. They do not specify how much access. The specifics are not mandated.

So typically what happens is that a large industrial poultry farmer that wants to hike up his prices and justify it by putting "free range" on the label raises the birds as normal, in the same pens and conditions as non-free range birds until adolescence. Then they will open the doors to the barn for an hour or so a day to let them be "free" Woo Hoo!

Problem is, by that time the birds are so acclimated to their cramped conditions that the outdoor environment is scary as hell, so very few ever even leave their cages, let alone the barn. They sit in their cages and eat the free food that they dont have to go out and walk around for just like they have for their entire lives.

I'm not saying most free range producers do this, but I cannot see why they wouldn't and nothing is stopping them from doing so.

Just another example of getting suckered into buying bogus, meaningless products.

Relevant to this thread perhaps?

[Stephen Biko]

Rwanda: planted 400,000 to assist their issues

A country like this would not spend its income on anything like this if it was not seen and witnessed to help.

And a just a couple of countries over, the president of Gambia cured AIDS (http://observer.gm/africa/gambia/article/president-jammeh-bags-4-awards) too!

It appears to be a decent staple crop, but your credulity regarding what constitutes proof is magnificent.

[JHarris1385]

@Grif - I should have stated that its coming from a local small time farm. Luckily it is more free range than that. I honestly did not know exactly all that you stated, when it came to larger free range farms. Thanks for the info.

Here is the link to some turkey I saw sold at a local health food store:
http://www.marysturkeys.com/

[VX KAT]

And a just a couple of countries over, the president of Gambia cured AIDS (http://observer.gm/africa/gambia/article/president-jammeh-bags-4-awards) too!


:laugho::laugho: that's a good one! Yeah, right, I'm sure he's cured AIDS! :rollo:

[Anita]

Did I mention that I prefer free range gin n tonics?

[Ldub]

Did I mention that I prefer free range gin n tonics?

I like free range toast...:drool:

Especially if they replace the raisins with free range crickets...:yesgray:

[VXR]

I like free range toast

I like toast soldiers:yesb:

[circmand]

As little as 200 years ago every body ate free range and locally produced eevrything as there was no other option. The averag age to live was less than 40 people seldom kept there own teeth for more than 30 years and they smelled bad and grew to very small size. Now in 200 years we have created hormones and vacines and we now grow larger are far more healthy and average life expectancy is 80 years. This new age hippy healthy lifestyle is not a healthier lifestyle or a cure for anything. The only reason we see new and more disease is people now live about 3 times longer than they used to.

[JHarris1385]

Incorrect. Enough said.

[ZEUS]

Incorrect. Enough said.
WHOA! Better mix up your concoction, something is wrong... :p

[Ldub]

The only reason we see new and more disease is people now live about 3 times longer than they used to.

That, & the fact that everything today is disinfected to the Nth degree...:rolleyesg
Kids now-A-days don't get exposed to Near the amount of germicidal nastiness as in decades gone by...poor little buggers gots no immune system I tell you...no built up resistance at all.

Just wait, you'll see... when most of us robust healthy old codgers die off, the zombie revolution is gonna be a cakewalk...:laughing:


WHOA! Better mix up your concoction, something is wrong... :p
:laughing:.:yesgray:.:laughing:

[JHarris1385]

Now I have a little more time on my hands.

1. The average life expectancy on Earth is not 80 but under 70.
2. 40 does not go into 80 3x


The reason the average life was lower in the past in comparison to today is the fact that their was little to no scientific research and developement of things like vaccines which are making us live longer. Old diets were much better than ours currently and your adjectives show just that. To make sure we are on the same page and to clarify, diets of the past did not make them live a shorter life and our current diets do not make us live longer. It is the X factors that play the major role here. It is a fact that lifestyle dieseases are increasing at an unseen pace. We have more control over this than say polio or MMR. Sorta like Ldub said our immune systems are not what they should be since we are not exposed to the same as our ancestors. The mentioned hormones are just one reason that we become ill. All of this further solidifies the idea of supplementing what we consume in order to prevent. Its not a hippy lifestyle, it is simply science and techonolgy.

[circmand]

Now I have a little more time on my hands.

1. The average life expectancy on Earth is not 80 but under 70.
2. 40 does not go into 80 3x


The reason the average life was lower in the past in comparison to today is the fact that their was little to no scientific research and developement of things like vaccines which are making us live longer. Old diets were much better than ours currently and your adjectives show just that. To make sure we are on the same page and to clarify, diets of the past did not make them live a shorter life and our current diets do not make us live longer. It is the X factors that play the major role here. It is a fact that lifestyle dieseases are increasing at an unseen pace. We have more control over this than say polio or MMR. Sorta like Ldub said our immune systems are not what they should be since we are not exposed to the same as our ancestors. The mentioned hormones are just one reason that we become ill. All of this further solidifies the idea of supplementing what we consume in order to prevent. Its not a hippy lifestyle, it is simply science and techonolgy.

I cant find anything back more than 150 years but current male life expectancy is 78.5 and in 1850 it was 38.3. more than double not quite triple another 50 years it would even be further. That snake oil you are selling may make you feel healthier but it is making youimagine and hallucinate facts.

[ZEUS]

Its not a hippy lifestyle, it is simply science and techonolgy.Gimme the hippie lifestyle! :flower: ...that way I at least know WHEN I am hallucinating! :p

[circmand]

Gimme the hippie lifestyle! :flower: ...that way I at least know WHEN I am hallucinating! :p

Give me a big old steak, baked potato with butter, corn on the cob and a big old slice of Turtle pie for desert. I may not be purty but no carnivore every got brought down by beef broth in their vegetable stew. Really look at the so called healthy lifstyle folks. Pale, nomuscle tone they look like mashed potatos

[Y33TREKker]

I don't see how anyone can make a definitive statement on the subject when it seems like every other week even "science" is announcing that one of their own earlier findings is now incorrect.

[JHarris1385]

Just to make sure. I come no where near a hippy lifestyle. I consume pizza almost 4 times a week. I work at our family's place or stop by to check on things 5 days a week.

I consume Moringa to subside my back pain and sinus and allergy problems. Which it has. You could say I drink my Zija so I can play how I want to and not suffer one bit from various factors.

Moringa has been around for AGES just not in the USA long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqPBmERC7OU

[JHarris1385]

So what about stevia which south americans have been utilizing since the dawn of time with no adverse effects? Seems like it's sweet with little to no insulin response.

Forgot to reply to this a long time ago.

Stevia turned up to be pretty good.

[JHarris1385]

Like him or P90X or not but he praises Moringa.

http://tonyhortonsworld.com/benefits-of-the-moringa-leaf/

[circmand]

Like him or P90X or not but he praises Moringa.

http://tonyhortonsworld.com/benefits-of-the-moringa-leaf/

Someone I have never heard of, who has no expertise or training, and has gotton rich hawking stuff posted a positive message about this next great thing on the internet. Forget what doctors and science says I am listening to this guy because he says stuff I want to hear. Powder up an over priced leaf in your drink at each meal and you will lose weight (or gain weight if you need it) cure your cancer, acne and become irresistable to women. Thank god these people who have no experience or background exist so that they can discover somethingthat has been around for centuries has all these therapuetic qualities that modern science and the entire medical field around the world have been unable to discover.

Just more snake oil for the 21st century

You want a real miracle cure? Diet and exercise.

[VX KAT]

OPINION PIECE...PLEASE BE ADVISED...OPINION BEING STATED HERE:

Have to agree 100% with circmand here. Having a healthcare degree and working in hospitals and healthcare for 25 yrs, I know it's not a grand conspiracy by ALL physicians and ALL scientists and ALL health care providers and ALL business interests. Most healthcare providers are motivated and dedicated to help their fellow man/woman, and yes, some are also motivated by money.

IF there was some fabulous, miraculous, wonderful health benefits from any substance, the scientific and medical community would be all over it in a New York Minute...well, since NY is in the middle of a snowpocalypse, maybe a I should say a nanosecond.

If there was money to be made, then the healthcare providers motivated by such would be all over it....

And the for-profit business sector would ALSO be all over it......(more so than just the MLM/pyramid individuals)

If something was truly successful for weight loss, the entire U.S. would be all over it, given the recent obesity epidemic!!

IMO, it's just not possible that this product can be THAT miraculous and be such a well kept secret from millions and millions of well-meaning, knowledgable people. Consider the long list of marketing darlings that have made similar claims and have either passed into oblivion or not solved the world's health problems despite years and years of marketing...... HerbaLife, Acai berry, Shaklee, Amway's vitamins come to mind.....

And let's not forget the many-times-over proven placebo effect.

I respect everyone's right to do as they please, and use whatever products they wish. I'm just stating my opinion and rationale for not believing in this one.

[Osteomata]

Agree 100% with kat and circmand. I also find it laughable that the OP uses, as one of his primary arguments, the idea that this must be True and Good because no Dr would ever put his name and reputation on the line for this product if it were not. Heaven forfend! I can't tell if that is willfully naive or intentionally deceptive. One merely needs to watch late night infomercials to perceive the lie there. MDs are human, and thus just as susceptible to corruption or self delusion or "harmless" little lies for the sake of profit as anyone else. What do the double blind tests show? What does the peer reviewed literature on the subject actually say, versus the distorted implications of the OP? Bunk.

[circmand]

Agree 100% with kat and circmand. I also find it laughable that the OP uses, as one of his primary arguments, the idea that this must be True and Good because no Dr would ever put his name and reputation on the line for this product if it were not. Heaven forfend! I can't tell if that is willfully naive or intentionally deceptive. One merely needs to watch late night infomercials to perceive the lie there. MDs are human, and thus just as susceptible to corruption or self delusion or "harmless" little lies for the sake of profit as anyone else. What do the double blind tests show? What does the peer reviewed literature on the subject actually say, versus the distorted implications of the OP? Bunk.

Apparently the Drs that agree the product is good are infallible and honest and true and wouldnt lie

But the majority of Drs who say snake oil and put their names to that are part of a vast conspiracy and are all lieing.

[JHarris1385]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZiw15VgWoI

[JHarris1385]

It has been a couple months and I will honor the member's request to keep them private since this thread turned the way it did but since the start of the thread here are a couple results within us:

#1. I roughly months was able to go off their blood pressure and cholesterol medicine. They were examined by a Dr. who agreed "that whatever they are doing, continue, as it poses no harm." - They are just a user and wanted to feel it out before giving any other family members any.

#2 Has lost 35 pounds in roughly the same time frame and decided to share the products early on to others that asked what was working for them. At this point and time all of their family's (Husband, wife and 1 teenager) product is paid for. All is well and they are doing great.

I am not sure what other sources you would like other than the previous:
John Hopkins School of Medicine
US National Library of Medicine
National Institute of Health

Here are the first few when I just searched google:
http://earthnews.pinaymom.org/2011/01/uses-of-malunggay-moringa-oleifera-or-malunggay-as-natural-medicine/

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11763&page=247

http://herbalmiracles.blogspot.com/2010/07/benefits-moringa-oleifera-kelor-for.html

It is widely evident through various sources that our fruits and vegetables are not as nutritious as they once were. It should be easy to see why, hormones, seeds and genes of plants picked for crop production (profit) vs. nutrition.

http://newhope360.com/vegetables-are-not-nutritious-they-were-1950s

http://www.downtoearth.org/blogs/2009-09/health/vegetables-not-nutritious-they-were-40-50-years-ago


Once again I hope not to offend anyone, just another attempt to reach out and help. At this point and time I will not sell at a "retail" profit price I would gladly ship at my rate to your address. Just message me.

Thanks for your consideration.

[Osteomata]

Still using this forum to hawk your psuedo-scientific multilevel marketing scheme, I see.

[LittleBeast]

Give me a big old steak, baked potato with butter, corn on the cob and a big old slice of Turtle pie for desert. I may not be purty but no carnivore every got brought down by beef broth in their vegetable stew. Really look at the so called healthy lifstyle folks. Pale, nomuscle tone they look like mashed potatos

My job is to workout on average 4 hours a day so I can and do eat A LOT of food daily. I actually have problems eating enough. I am 6'4" 215-220lbs with about 6% body fat and can power clean well over 300lbs for multiple reps..... I say none of this to boast please don't hear me say that, I simply say this to remind you that taking care of my body and keeping it running and jumping and throwing and competing at the highest level is my job and honestly there is no short cut around eating better (smarter) and working out (smarter not harder this involves correct rest). Nothing else works long term with good results. Just because something is labeled "organic" or "natural" means NOTHING! This is just another marketing campaign to make money and charge more to the consumer, whatever sells. I promise you there are A LOT of "organic" and "all natural" plants/herbs/foods that are posionus or harmful. Especially when people think "the more the better", your body can become overloaded on almost any substance if you are consuming more than you can absorb or urinate out. You can even die from drinking too much water.


I don't see how anyone can make a definitive statement on the subject when it seems like every other week even "science" is announcing that one of their own earlier findings is now incorrect.

Haha this is so true.....


You want a real miracle cure? Diet and exercise.
Exactly. But not diet, that sounds like a plan that can change, you have to totally change your lifestyle, where you eat, what you eat, how much you eat, how much you drink and if what, and it has to stay that way and not just be a "diet" that goes away.


And let's not forget the many-times-over proven placebo effect.
exactly!!!!! Most if not ALL times when someone claims that some pill or any substance made them loss weight it is just a type of placebo effect. Even if the results are real, just the fact that you believe in something enough to spend money on it and invest in it, you will (consiously or sub-consiously) start to change other things in your life to support your desired outcome with this product or you will have been proven an idiot for believing a lie and investing in a scam. Basically faith does change things whether we believe it or not. Most if not all times in these cases it is not the product (pill, powder, etc.) that affects the positive change in the person's life. It is all the smaller more subtle changes that support this desired outcome. Pills, powders, etc ARE NOT substantially absorbed by the body! And when these things are injected the results are short term and the body starts to rely on the intake of these things and stops naturally producing and naturally aquatint these as well from other foods. The body is REALLY smart and adapts to what you are putting in it. Even something as simple as natural creatine when taken in higher doses than the body produces needs to be supported by a huge increase in water intake and stretching excersies to prevent massive cramping and WHEN you stop taking it or top working out the positive effects are gone VERY QUICKLY!!!!! there are no short cuts there is no magic poll/drink/injection they all have their positives/negatives/side effects and ARE not long lasting especially when not taken any more. I am drug tested all the time by the Olympic Committe and USA Track and Field, yes to keep things fair but also to keep me from ruining my body for the sake of short term gains that will tear my body apart and be gone as soon as I am off the stuff.

MDs are human, and thus just as susceptible to corruption or self delusion or "harmless" little lies for the sake of profit as anyone else. What do the double blind tests show? What does the peer reviewed literature on the subject actually say?
Good questions but in this case I don't think they even need to be answered when this is obviously a pyramid scheme.

[Anita]

EEHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sick013.gif

[circmand]

It has been a couple months and I will honor the member's request to keep them private since this thread turned the way it did but since the start of the thread here are a couple results within us:

#1. I roughly months was able to go off their blood pressure and cholesterol medicine. They were examined by a Dr. who agreed "that whatever they are doing, continue, as it poses no harm." - They are just a user and wanted to feel it out before giving any other family members any.

#2 Has lost 35 pounds in roughly the same time frame and decided to share the products early on to others that asked what was working for them. At this point and time all of their family's (Husband, wife and 1 teenager) product is paid for. All is well and they are doing great.

I am not sure what other sources you would like other than the previous:
John Hopkins School of Medicine
US National Library of Medicine
National Institute of Health

Here are the first few when I just searched google:
http://earthnews.pinaymom.org/2011/01/uses-of-malunggay-moringa-oleifera-or-malunggay-as-natural-medicine/

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11763&page=247

http://herbalmiracles.blogspot.com/2010/07/benefits-moringa-oleifera-kelor-for.html

It is widely evident through various sources that our fruits and vegetables are not as nutritious as they once were. It should be easy to see why, hormones, seeds and genes of plants picked for crop production (profit) vs. nutrition.

http://newhope360.com/vegetables-are-not-nutritious-they-were-1950s

http://www.downtoearth.org/blogs/2009-09/health/vegetables-not-nutritious-they-were-40-50-years-ago


Once again I hope not to offend anyone, just another attempt to reach out and help. At this point and time I will not sell at a "retail" profit price I would gladly ship at my rate to your address. Just message me.

Thanks for your consideration.

No sources. Of course how you respect members request to keep the spam off the site private by posting yet again I doubt that works either

[Osteomata]

Exactly, those links aren't sources, they are just nonsensical and/or credulous Moringa hyping addresses. Stephen Biko already decimated the ridiculous John Hopkins/US National Library of Medicine/National Institute of Health "peer reviewed" claim back on page two http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showpost.php?p=208511&postcount=20
Other than appeals to authority, correlation/causation falicies, reliance on anecdote as evidence (which themselves are dependent on placebo, confirmation bias, and regression to mean effects), and strawman beating, you got nothin but a MLM sales pitch. I think Margene on HBO's Big Love is also selling this product.

[JHarris1385]

You guys are so right! Wow!

Nothing was ever debunked. Keep reading.

Thanks for coming here to post what you don't like, I guess some have more time on their hands than others.

However, I will continue to work with the others.

Stephen Biko is a man that doesn't believe in even the smallest of things like grocery cards. He spends his free time in fear, and works hard at building up his own self esteem from trying to pose intelligent from posting numerous web sites. The road goes both ways. His only point was the guy from JH was not a full time professor, who cares that he doesn't teach some get into the position to do research.

Just google Moringa Oleifera....

I am doing well from it business wise and I feel better and lost weight. What more could I ask for...oh wait help others (and of course I would benefit from that).

Both your jobs are a pyramid. If you are at the top, great, but more than likely unless self employed, you are somewhere in between in the fashion of a cascading pyramid, where one is at the top, and more at the bottom. Think about it.

[LittleBeast]

Both your jobs are a pyramid. If you are at the top, great, but more than likely unless self employed, you are somewhere in between in the fashion of a cascading pyramid, where one is at the top, and more at the bottom. Think about it.
Haha big difference between a pyramid structure, and pyramid scheme.

[JHarris1385]

Same shape. Nothing wrong with buying a product, sharing it with others and then making sure that their product is getting paid and ...repeat. Is it, not personally you, but fear of not making your money back or what? The product helps, and lets say it doesn't and it is a placebo, if you make an income from it and make sure others do and if they don't they can leave and never touch it again (most of the time with a full refund if within 90 days)...who have you hurt? No one.

I have a team of 7 IronMan competitors here locally that have been taking it to train for this qualifier in August here in Louisville, I have many other marathon runners and Tri-sport athletes on it...as well as a college team.

[vt_maverick]

Both your jobs are a pyramid. If you are at the top, great, but more than likely unless self employed, you are somewhere in between in the fashion of a cascading pyramid, where one is at the top, and more at the bottom. Think about it.


Haha big difference between a pyramid structure, and pyramid scheme.

I really could care less either way regarding the overall subject of this thread, but this statement is laughable. You are seriously deluded if you think that is a legitimate comparison.

Now back to work, I've got to find more people to put underneath me so I can move up. :p

[Moncha]

OMG!!! 14 pages???? And nothing but disdain and argument... Sorry but gotta close it.