Electric cars a bad idea?

[Marlin]

Today at work we were talking about electric cars. A great point was brought up. The mean gasoline tax for the nation is almost 50 cents a gallon. Say a family of 4 uses 100 gallons of gas a month. Thats 50 bucks in taxes. As cars become more efficient, less fuel use, therefore less revenue. If the idea of the fuel tax revenue was for road maintenance, we have a problem. We are talking huge sums of tax revenue lost. A fuel efficient car provides the same wear and tear on the roads as a gas guzzling big block V8. So where does the money come from? I would love to save money on fuel costs, only to pay for it on my electricity bill, or increased income tax and so on. So where does that leave us? Paying huge sums of money to new energy tycoons...big oil, big nuke, uncle sam, whatever, makes no difference to me where my money goes.
Just some food for thought.

[Grif]

Nobody said electric cars would be cheaper to run.

Tax fossil fuels more as they eventually lose popularity. On electric vehicles you can tax their road usage based on odometer readings as we all re-register our cars every year anyway.

Guess I'm not seeing a huge quandary here...

[Marlin]

Nobody said electric cars would be cheaper to run.

Tax fossil fuels more as they eventually lose popularity. On electric vehicles you can tax their road usage based on odometer readings as we all re-register our cars every year anyway.

Guess I'm not seeing a huge quandary here...

What do you do for vehicles that have broken odometers? Is it like a toll and you pay the max fee if you lose your ticket. Who checks your odometer? Why not just disable it?
Illegals do no register their cars as they are not accountable for our laws. Electricity on the other hand is something we all pay for.
Ideally, toll roads would be the best routes, you only pay for the roads you use.
As for the electric cars being better for the environment, I doubt it. Coal plants are far more dirty than our engines and those battery packs are crazy hazardous. On the other hand, once our nuke plants come online...
The hybrids hurt as well. A fender bender that would cost 1000 bucks in a regular gas guzzler may cost thousands in a hybrid since there is only one guy at the dealership that can work on them. You can't do it yourself and neither can mom and pops. That means their insurance premiums are much higher. One of my guys drives a prius, his premium is as much as my gigantic F250 which has far more damage potential than his little plastic car.:bgwb:

[pbkid]

A fuel efficient car provides the same wear and tear on the roads as a gas guzzling big block V8.

hmmm.... you wanna double check your logic???
do you really believe a moped causes the same amount of road damage as a tractor-trailer? (to over-exaggerate the idea of weight damaging roads)

example: for purposes of argument of damage to road, take only passenger cars. Say electric vehicles weigh 2/3 of what gas vehicles do... the damage to the road is going to be obviously greater from the gas vehicles.
Yes, 1/3 difference isnt much, but multiple that by 1000's of vehicles which cross every bump every day.... it adds up....

Now, I'm gonna anticipate your response here chris ;)

im not saying that ALL electric vehicles are lighter than gas vehicles.... but look at the weight difference of a big block V8 (say, dodge charger motor, vehicle used to carry 4 passengers) compared to the weight of a prius motor (electric motor, used to carry the same amount of passengers as the charger)

or, even worse, replace the charger with a cadillac... weight goes up again...

2010 prius- 3042lbs. (curb GVW per toyota.com)
2010 charger- 3800lbs. (curb GVW per dodge.com)
97 cadillac deville - 4009lbs. (curb GVW per edmunds.com)

also, im not exactly a huge supporter of electric vehicles, but i like to "screw" (for lack of a family friendly word) with chris :naughty:

wanna know my opinion? screw spending 30k on a prius to look like a #$%.... spend $1500 on an old honda if you want great mileage. i get almost 40mpg in my 92 acura, and i OWN it :)
oh, and it costs me $20 a month to insure it :P

[Grif]

Odometer tampering is very illegal already. Conventional odometers could be supplemented by other systems as backup as well. Charge/disharge cycles or total energy thruput could be measured and stored in the ECU much akin the electric meters we have on our houses. None of this is rocket science.

Yes, coal plants are dirty as hell, but we dont use that much coal anyways. Sure we have LOTS of it, but its not being used as nobody wants coal plants, and for good reason. Other alternative sources of energy exist and it will take a lot of development to make them viable, however when combined with a sensible energy strategy should be enough to fit the bill IMHO.

[Triathlete]

I am by no means an engineer...
Why do we need to charge an electric vehicle in the first place? Why can they not put electric generators on the axles, wheels, and or drive lines? As you drive the generators produce power and recharge the batteries! Self contained system. I am an f'n genious!:yesy:

[Riff Raff]

I love Marlin to death:heart:, but I'm gonna' have to side with Peanut Butter Kid on this one for his great analogy. In addition, these new Hybrid's are just too damn expensive for what you get (although I do like the new Honda CRZ, but not the price).

For my daily driver, I'll stick with my paid-for 1980 Ford Fiesta that gets 41 MPG and can also carry 4-people just like those other cars PBK mentioned. Plus; my Fiesta is so old, it is exempt from annual license tab renewal (free tabs). Beat that, Prius!!!

:bgwb:

[Bob Barker]

What are people going to do with the batteries after they "die" in all the electric cars? Aren't those full of really nasty stuff?

[IndianaVX]

If the development of electric cars was being offered as just another car you can buy, I don't see it as a bad idea.
If it is for all of us to put big oil under, give us few selections of what we can drive, I think it's a bad idea.
Where I see the problem is the unintended consequences. The power grids, more demand for electricity, which means more power from the power plant, more pollution, battery disposal, what happens to those batteries if they leak, or catch fire?
A few years back, we replaced our furnace. We did all our homework, and got a big ole electric furnace to replace our inefficient propane furnace.
The electric co. Had all the stats that at their rates how much cheaper it was to go this route. Well it was cheaper, for a little while, then the rates climbed, no more kw usage scales, etc. Now it is not unusual to sometimes see a 600 or 700 dollar electric bill for one month.
We here in Indiana, along with many other states, DEPEND on coal. It's about all we have! So in our case, to create more electricity means burning more coal. Another drawback, for a commuter, a little Civic, prius, etc gets you to work and back fine. Should I be taxed more for having to drive a big heavy gas truck to haul tools, lumber, etc?

[Grif]

I am by no means an engineer...
Why do we need to charge an electric vehicle in the first place? Why can they not put electric generators on the axles, wheels, and or drive lines? As you drive the generators produce power and recharge the batteries! Self contained system. I am an f'n genious!:yesy:

Regenerative braking systems exist in all modern electrics and hybrids. They attempt to put as much electricity back into the battery as they can by capturing the kinetic energy of the vehicle as it slows down then converting it to electricity which then helps charge the battery.

First and second laws of thermodynamics. You don't need to be an engineer, a high school education will do.

[Grif]

Should I be taxed more for having to drive a big heavy gas truck to haul tools, lumber, etc?

Umm.... yes?

[Marlin]

Jack, you know me oh so well...lol. I doubt the difference between 3200 and 3800 really matters for well built roads.

Those batteries have ridiculous hazardous materials and require highly specialized facilities to process.

Did you know electric vehicles were in full production in 1939? (learned that from Forza motorsports on Xbox360)

I had the great pleasure of going with my father to work on a huge solar farm in Germany in the spring. The owner came out and talked to us. This was state of the art stuff. Azimuth and horizon tracking, computer controlled for optimal efficiency. Sticker cost would take at least 20 years at current electricity rates to recoup costs. That did not include repairs, maintenance, and so on. I was flabbergasted, yes, I just used the word flabbergasted on this forum. He said it had nothing to do with environment or profit, but rather prestige. kind of like buying a 200K car. Just so you can say you have one.
As for not using coal, what does your state use? You have natural gas, coal or nuke. Nuke being magnitudes cleaner and safer for the environment. For all you anti nuke folks, FYI, the US navy has hundreds of nuclear powered ships, tooling around the world, dynamic situations, never had an accident that resulted in a civilian exceeding the federal exposure limits. As a matter of fact, my lifetime exposure is just a bit over 1 REM in 13.5 years, the federal limit was 1 REM a year until recently. I have more exposure than anyone I work with since I was involved with the USS San Francisco running aground a few years ago. Most of my exposure came from that job putting up lead shielding for x-rays of the piping.

I digress, electric cars are silly, just like smart cars and mini coopers. There are old hondas and Riff's super rare fiesta that get far better mileage, at a teeny tiny fraction of the cost. Those cars are 15-20 years old, we had the technology with conventional engines 2 decades ago!!!

My entire point to this thread was to allow people to recognize that we are angry at Big oil, yet we are going to replace it with someone else. More smoke and mirrors for liberal douche hippie environmentalists. There will always be some Big 'xxxx' to be angry at for as long as we need to transport ourselves quickly over long distances. The government cramming hybrids and electrics down our throat is going to result in horrible repercussions. Remember that 10 years from now that I called it:) This is all smoke and mirrors to keep the masses happy that the government is actually doing something.:blab::blab: (president on red phone...sorry, it was the best I could do.)

[RickOKC]

Well, I'm all for electric vehicles - more gas for ME! Seriously though, as much as I am a fan of internal combustion, change doesn't scare me so I've also been drooling over the idea of something like a Tesla S sedan ever since I first heard about it. (Wow, that thing is gorgeous!) I think I would enjoy the heck out of something like that every bit as much as I enjoy my VX & my Mustang GT.

I'm a cynic, too, so I wouldn't be surprised to find myself soon paying a more in gasoline taxes ("we have to offset the lost revenue")… and also start paying more in electricity taxes to offset that (thereby subsidizing those with electric cars when I don't yet own one.)

I have to call foul on the Prius vs. Deville comparison. :p Instead of talking about the weight of a new "eco-warrior" compact car vs. a 13-year-old large sized boat, I think comparing the 2010 Lotus Elise to the 2010 Tesla Roadster is much more fair and illustrates the spirit of the original comment. The Tesla's weight is 2,690 lbs and it is based on the 1,984 lb Lotus. Compare function-to-function fairly and, until technology catches up, which type of vehicle is really the heaviest? 2011 Ford Escape: 3,299 lbs / 2011 Ford Escape Hybrid: 3,669 lbs. Sorry, there may be other vehicles that confirm batteries make 'em heavier or could contradict that - I just picked the first two examples that came to mind.

(source: Edmunds.com; all weights listed above are curb weights)

[Marlin]

I have to call foul on the Prius vs. Deville comparison. :p Instead of talking about the weight of a new "eco-warrior" compact car vs. a 13-year-old large sized boat, I think comparing the 2010 Lotus Elise to the 2010 Tesla Roadster is much more fair and illustrates the spirit of the original comment. The Tesla's weight is 2,690 lbs and it is based on the 1,984 lb Lotus. Compare function-to-function fairly and, until technology catches up, which type of vehicle is really the heaviest. 2011 Ford Escape: 3,299 lbs / 2011 Ford Escape Hybrid: 3,669 lbs. Sorry, there may be other vehicles that confirm batteries make 'em heavier or could contradict that - I just picked the first two examples that came to mind.

(source: Edmunds.com; all weights listed above are curb weights)

Good point, someone driving an deville is not likely to drop 30k on any vehicle, lot less some tiny electric car. Never thought of that approach...

[IndianaVX]

It's hard to type Full thoughts on this phone, but following on marlins line,
I haven't checked lately, but I don't think there are permits being allowed for any nuke plants in the U.S.
The same goes for hydro power due to some regulation about daming rivers.
And the coal gassification plants which are state of the art plants will never conform to the new regulations being put on them almost weekly.
Even windmills have generators on them for when the wind isn't blowing and those generators run on fossil fuels.

[Grif]

My entire point to this thread was to allow people to recognize that we are angry at Big oil, yet we are going to replace it with someone else.

We don't need to be allowed to think by you or anyone else. We can do that ourselves, thanks.


More smoke and mirrors for liberal douche hippie environmentalists. There will always be some Big 'xxxx' to be angry at for as long as we need to transport ourselves quickly over long distances.

Yes, but it doesn't take a liberal douchebag hippie to realize that.


The government cramming hybrids and electrics down our throat is going to result in horrible repercussions.

Thank you for your considered opinion. Care for any facts to back that up? Research? Even any ideas at all? Spew accusations all you want, but without any ideas to fix the situation, you are just bitching to hear yourself bitch. Or has a teabag got stuck in your throat?


Remember that 10 years from now that I called it:) This is all smoke and mirrors to keep the masses happy that the government is actually doing something.:blab::blab: (president on red phone...sorry, it was the best I could do.)

Thank you Nostradamus. But I prefer criticism to be constructive. I do not dismiss alternatives as easily as you as you seem to. Any research to keep us from suckling the tit of foreign oil is fine by me personally, but your agenda seems to be to discredit all progressive thought on the matter in lieu of the status quo, which I think we all know is not sustainable over the next few decades.

[Dmitrikr]

well, talking hybrids fuel economy 2-3L per 100 km compared to same size sedan. so tell me how many kilometers I have to put on hybrid - just to cover up 6 grand difference in price for hybrid. Plus to maintain hybrids( electrics) cost more than regular car.
BUT! driving lexus 600h - is fun! )) Now I have to win lottery to buy one))

[Marlin]

It's hard to type Full thoughts on this phone, but following on marlins line,
I haven't checked lately, but I don't think there are permits being allowed for any nuke plants in the U.S.


There are several nuke plants in construction right now, scheduled to come on line 2017-2020 time frame. I have a very high interest in this since its what I do for a living:) The plants are already scouting. They are hitting us up more than 1 year before our Navy contracts expire and hiring for plants not even up yet. Offer to buy our houses, pay for our moves, HUGE signing bonuses. Starting salary for a RO (reactor operator) is 80K plus overtime. They guarantee at least 10 hours overtime a week. We are starting in 6 figures without a degree! That is WAY more than I make in the Navy, and the civilian job is MUCH easier and they never ask you to leave your family for months at a time. Plus I don't have to live in San Diego or Norfolk, which are two of 4 choices I have in the Navy. Those places suck.
I will have my degree in a few months, so my salary will be even better. Right now, there are very few programs out there to drive high school graduates into the nuclear field, so a vast majority or ex-navy nukes.
So with all this job availability, maybe I can afford to buy some POS hybrid. :bgwb: Just to keep it on topic.

[Marlin]

well, talking hybrids fuel economy 2-3L per 100 km compared to same size sedan. so tell me how many kilometers I have to put on hybrid - just to cover up 6 grand difference in price for hybrid. Plus to maintain hybrids( electrics) cost more than regular car.
BUT! driving lexus 600h - is fun! )) Now I have to win lottery to buy one))

Per edmunds, 4-6 years at 15k miles per year and 2.75 a gallon for fuel. Diesels pay for themselves in 1-3 years.

[Dmitrikr]

Per edmunds, 4-6 years at 15k miles per year and 2.75 a gallon for fuel. Diesels pay for themselves in 1-3 years.

5years*15= 75k miles counting what? same price for fuel over 4-6years? No wear & tear on cars? Every one knows - battery getting old - discharges faster -needs to be recharged more often - more gas to use. gasoline engine - no wear and tear? SAME fuel consumption over 4-6 years?

[Marlin]

We don't need to be allowed to think by you or anyone else. We can do that ourselves, thanks.

Your damn right, God bless America.

Yes, but it doesn't take a liberal douchebag hippie to realize that.

Sure, but liberal douche hippies got one of the largest solar panel fields in America shutdown because of some stupid tortoise. This was not a photovoltaic field, but rather a mirror, boiling water type facility which is far more efficient. There is so much coddling of the specialist minority, that I thought I should give em a shout out and make em feel specialer:bwgy:.

If I offended any liberal douche hippies with my post, get over it, you drive a VX; A very environmentally unfriendly vehicle. Burns lots of oil, horrible mpg...I would put this akin to making fun of vegans on a hunting forum. Take your seemingly self righteousness to a forum that makes sense.

Thank you for your considered opinion. Care for any facts to back that up? Research? Even any ideas at all? Spew accusations all you want, but without any ideas to fix the situation, you are just bitching to hear yourself bitch. Or has a teabag got stuck in your throat?

Ideas, lets stick to technologies we know that work. There are lots of vehicles decades old (see Brian and Jack's posts about their old cars getting incredible mileage) We don't need to dump billions on new technology just for the sake of creating something new.

Thank you Nostradamus. But I prefer criticism to be constructive. I do not dismiss alternatives as easily as you as you seem to. Any research to keep us from suckling the tit of foreign oil is fine by me personally, but your agenda seems to be to discredit all progressive thought on the matter in lieu of the status quo, which I think we all know is not sustainable over the next few decades.

Did you even read my post?! There is nothing progressive about overpriced hybrid/electric cars. They were in mass production in the 30s. We are just trading one tit for another. I am happy with my current tit, no reason for me to throw down a fortune for an inferior tit that will put me in the same situation I am in now in twenty years. Take all the hybrid/electric money and throw it at something such as hydrogen or bio fuels that actually work rather than postponing the inevitable. (some promising fuels are being researched using algae, but if that stuff gets loose into the natural environment...) An electric/hybrid car is like wrapping electrical tape around an exposed conductor. Its just a temporary fix, we are better off taking the time and money and doing it right.



WTF man, where did all this anger come from? Too much tequila? It tends to make some people angry.
This chart is cut and pasted from 2010 data presented by the US geological survey group of the top 17 oil producers in the world, the years representation is for the respective country at current usage rates per country and located in land the respective country owns. Add all these together, it is many decades of oil use...

Country Reserve life in years

Saudi Arabia 66
Iraq 142
Canada 188
Iran 95
Kuwait 110
Venezuela 100
United Arab Emirates 93
Russia 17
Kazakhstan 93
Libya 66
Nigeria 41
United States 8
China 11
Qatar 46
Algeria 15
Brazil 14
Mexico 9

For the total of these 17 nations for the world, it is a worst case scenario of 54 years. This is based on only a 50% successful recovery of the known contents. Generally, they are closer to 70-80% but for the reserves,they use a standard 50%.
This is also based on known oil fields, does not include prospective oil fields that have not been surveyed and quantified.
This is just the reserve fields, not being actively pumped. So we have a long while before gas goes away out of necessity.

[Marlin]

5years*15= 75k miles counting what? same price for fuel over 4-6years? No wear & tear on cars? Every one knows - battery getting old - discharges faster -needs to be recharged more often - more gas to use. gasoline engine - no wear and tear? SAME fuel consumption over 4-6 years?

That is assuming a constant fuel cost and mpg over the time period, and the recouping of the purchase price difference of the same model in a conventional gasoline model. It also did not include the depreciation cost, the insurance difference and so on. There just isn't enough usage data to go any further. I see where you are going with this, means more huge government sponsored facilities to recycle the fancy lithium hybrid battery packs. Instead of a tax credit on hybrids, they should have to pay a tax penalty for future recycling programs. LOL.

[pbkid]

I have to call foul on the Prius vs. Deville comparison. :p Instead of talking about the weight of a new "eco-warrior" compact car vs. a 13-year-old large sized boat, I think comparing the 2010 Lotus Elise to the 2010 Tesla Roadster is much more fair and illustrates the spirit of the original comment. The Tesla's weight is 2,690 lbs and it is based on the 1,984 lb Lotus. Compare function-to-function fairly and, until technology catches up, which type of vehicle is really the heaviest? 2011 Ford Escape: 3,299 lbs / 2011 Ford Escape Hybrid: 3,669 lbs. Sorry, there may be other vehicles that confirm batteries make 'em heavier or could contradict that - I just picked the first two examples that came to mind.

(source: Edmunds.com; all weights listed above are curb weights)

rick-
interesting comparison. and yes, logically your comparison makes sense. I was simply working off chris' statement that there is no road damage difference between a prius and a 'gas guzzling V8'.... so, i was purely comparing vehicles with V8's.....
find me a 'commonly' used V8 vehicle that weighs less than a prius... or even better, my dads CRX (1,600 lb curb) (and he pulls over 42 mpg)

and yes, i completely agree with you, if we can compare any vehicle hybrid vs. conventional.
tahoe hybrid :p - 7,100 lbs
lotus elise - 2,562 lbs

[crotchrocket]

I think the benifits are supposed to be for the environment arent they? and the short term fuel savings for the first wave of people buying them will be regularised with tax rises in other areas once more people have them..............Although its clear that current electric vehicles arent the way forward, hydrogen fuel cells will be powering electric cars the future. I guess its a way to get people to let go of their fossil fuel powered vehicles....

Not that i am going to get an electric car but as Jay Lenno said, if having an electric car means you can still run your petrol car on the weekends as a hobby then all the better than fazing fuel out all together

[circmand]

I think the benifits are supposed to be for the environment arent they? and the short term fuel savings for the first wave of people buying them will be regularised with tax rises in other areas once more people have them..............Although its clear that current electric vehicles arent the way forward, hydrogen fuel cells will be powering electric cars the future. I guess its a way to get people to let go of their fossil fuel powered vehicles....

Not that i am going to get an electric car but as Jay Lenno said, if having an electric car means you can still run your petrol car on the weekends as a hobby then all the better than fazing fuel out all together

1. The government allows hybrids to claim better MPG just because they are hybrids. They do not allow actual MPG
2. The cost to recharge and the enviromental damage done by the electric plants producing the electricity are not considered in government comparisons
3. If I need to make a long trip I have no desire to stop for hours to recharge when I can refuel in minutes
4. If electric cars are now as fast in real life as opposed to government allowances why do I always end of passing priuses and have never been passed by one?
5. The government allows Chevy to claim a higher trip distance than actual to push its hybrid and electric agenda. I am all for improving the performance and enviroment but you cant let the government choose winners and bias resuylts to push the agenda. Actual measurements must be used.
6. The government has yet to establish a method of handling the millions in old batteries from hybrids which beleive me are far more toxic and worse for the enviroment than gas exhaust.
7. You cant trust the enviromental protestors. They wanted Nuke power and now they protest against it. They are against pollution but burn brand new cars they do not own and cause far more enviromental damage than even a Hummer would cause in its lifetime.
8. If we are too switch to solar and wind power as the enviromental people want the entire country will need to be covered from end to end to produce enough power and god forbid we have rainy days or windless days we will have power outages all the time. And lets not forget while they want wind power they now protest that the windmills kill birds and disrupt the habitat of the animals.

Frankly we need to invent a power source that runs on the hot useless air produce by politicians and the enviromental movement. Plus Rush Limbaugh could probably power NYC on his own. We could actually just put Rush on one end of the US and Obama on the other end and Biden in the middle and never run out of power cause none of them ever shut the hell up.

[crotchrocket]

Hmmmm seamed to miss "Although its clear that current electric vehicles arent the way forward" in your whole governent conspiracy theory attack hahaha




1. The government allows hybrids to claim better MPG just because they are hybrids. They do not allow actual MPG
2. The cost to recharge and the enviromental damage done by the electric plants producing the electricity are not considered in government comparisons
3. If I need to make a long trip I have no desire to stop for hours to recharge when I can refuel in minutes
4. If electric cars are now as fast in real life as opposed to government allowances why do I always end of passing priuses and have never been passed by one?
5. The government allows Chevy to claim a higher trip distance than actual to push its hybrid and electric agenda. I am all for improving the performance and enviroment but you cant let the government choose winners and bias resuylts to push the agenda. Actual measurements must be used.
6. The government has yet to establish a method of handling the millions in old batteries from hybrids which beleive me are far more toxic and worse for the enviroment than gas exhaust.
7. You cant trust the enviromental protestors. They wanted Nuke power and now they protest against it. They are against pollution but burn brand new cars they do not own and cause far more enviromental damage than even a Hummer would cause in its lifetime.
8. If we are too switch to solar and wind power as the enviromental people want the entire country will need to be covered from end to end to produce enough power and god forbid we have rainy days or windless days we will have power outages all the time. And lets not forget while they want wind power they now protest that the windmills kill birds and disrupt the habitat of the animals.

Frankly we need to invent a power source that runs on the hot useless air produce by politicians and the enviromental movement. Plus Rush Limbaugh could probably power NYC on his own. We could actually just put Rush on one end of the US and Obama on the other end and Biden in the middle and never run out of power cause none of them ever shut the hell up.

[Stephen Biko]

I digress, electric cars are silly, just like smart cars and mini coopers. There are old hondas and Riff's super rare fiesta that get far better mileage, at a teeny tiny fraction of the cost. Those cars are 15-20 years old, we had the technology with conventional engines 2 decades ago!!!

No we did not. You are comparing apples to oranges. 15-20 years ago cars were 500lbs+ lighter because they didn't have all of the safety engineering that is part of modern vehicles. For example:

Curb Weights
1990 Nissan Sentra Base Model (http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/sentra/1990/features-specs.html?style=1538): 2156 lbs 29/36MPG (http://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/10/22/cheap-high-mpg-cars-1990/)
2010 Nissan Sentra Base Model w/ CVT (http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/sentra/2010/features-specs.html?style=101198533): 2972 lbs 26/34MPG

You put one of those 1990 engines in a modern car and you won't see anything like the MPG that it got in one of those light-weight chassis of 1990.

[crotchrocket]

I had a smart car for a bit, lol. Thought it was the solution to London but it was uncomfortable, handled like a roller skate, too short to be stable on the motorway and the MPG wasnt all that great as you had to floor it to get anywhere!!!!

I see a few Tesla's here and there, i'd drive one of those!!

[Marlin]

No we did not. You are comparing apples to oranges. 15-20 years ago cars were 500lbs+ lighter because they didn't have all of the safety engineering that is part of modern vehicles. For example:

Curb Weights
1990 Nissan Sentra Base Model (http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/sentra/1990/features-specs.html?style=1538): 2156 lbs 29/36MPG (http://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/10/22/cheap-high-mpg-cars-1990/)
2010 Nissan Sentra Base Model w/ CVT (http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/sentra/2010/features-specs.html?style=101198533): 2972 lbs 26/34MPG

You put one of those 1990 engines in a modern car and you won't see anything like the MPG that it got in one of those light-weight chassis of 1990.

I think you are also missing some data. Sentras only came in a manual tranny up until about 8 years ago, the base model had no AC, power windows power locks, power trunk release and so on, things that are all standard even in the base model now. You can't compare the weight of a base model from 19 years ago to now and say its only because of safety stuff. With today's modern materials, there is no reason we can't get it down to that weight if you strip all the amenities out of it actually compare model to model.

Strange, I looked at the traffic fatalities numbers, from 94 (thats as far back as it went) to 2006, traffic deaths went up almost 10%!!! Went from 36,200 to 39,200! I wonder if that is due to speed limits going to 70mph?
Just wondering, since our vehicles got safer, yet fatalities went up.

[crotchrocket]

Must just be the amount of vehicles increasing meaning more accidents ?

[nfpgasmask]

IMO, electric is just a trade off. So we use less fuel, but imagine how much nuke power (more nuclear waste) we would need if even 50% of the current autos on the road were electric powered?

Solar and wind and geothermal would need to be full swing. We need to get away from fossil fuels, yes, but we also need to realize what the trade off is. Until we can produce on a large enough scale, TRUE, clean, renewable energy, I think gas will be here for a while.

Bart

[Marlin]

IMO, electric is just a trade off. So we use less fuel, but imagine how much nuke power (more nuclear waste) we would need if even 50% of the current autos on the road were electric powered?

Solar and wind and geothermal would need to be full swing. We need to get away from fossil fuels, yes, but we also need to realize what the trade off is. Until we can produce on a large enough scale, TRUE, clean, renewable energy, I think gas will be here for a while.

Bart

Nuclear is pretty clean. The waste is all self contained for the most part and not pumped into the atmosphere like fossil fuels. Downfall is that it takes a long time to become safe. But there is this one place we can store it....I think its called Nevada, or something like that. :)

[circmand]

Hmmmm seamed to miss "Although its clear that current electric vehicles arent the way forward" in your whole governent conspiracy theory attack hahaha

Seemed to miss? Actually I left it out because electric cars MAY be the solution. But to know this we have to measure honestly and not allow the government to do like the NFL referees are doing and decide the winners. In addition if we get everyone driving electric we do not have existing energy capacity to create enough to recharge all the cars. What happens then the cost of electricity skyrockets and the cost per mile figured out for current use is no longer correct. Look what happened to the price of corn when the govt forced ethanol on us. It greatly increased the cost of corn as food for humans, cattle feed as well and gas with ethanol causes vehicles to get lower mpg so more gas is needed all driving up the cost per mile as opposed to reducing it.

[Scott Harness]

But there is this one place we can store it....I think its called Nevada, or something like that. :)
LOL...under Bart's house:bgwb:
It's hard to beat the internal combustion engine.
The problem "is" too many people:madb:

[circmand]

I think you are also missing some data. Sentras only came in a manual tranny up until about 8 years ago, the base model had no AC, power windows power locks, power trunk release and so on, .

Why do we need all these friggin extras. I prefer rolling down the window by hand to replacing a motor for $800. Anyone think our windows would have the issues they do if they were perfected manual roll downs? Power locks hell I never locked myself outr of a car til cars started locking the damn doors for me. power trunk release how lazy are some people. How about the 20 speaker stereo systems. Friggin 10 pounds of speaker wire plus the speaker and stereo. How about these 22 inch rims and tirems weighing 50 or more pounds a piece.

And they do all this crap and then the one good option that used to be standarded a full sized spare is dropped for weight.


ARRRGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

[RickOKC]

Strange, I looked at the traffic fatalities numbers, from 94 (thats as far back as it went) to 2006, traffic deaths went up almost 10%!!! Went from 36,200 to 39,200!
I wonder how that compares to the population increase.


I wonder if that is due to speed limits going to 70mph?
BITE. YOUR. TONGUE. No really, right now. We'll wait. :mad: :upsetgray :mad:

:)

[Marlin]

I wonder how that compares to the population increase.


BITE. YOUR. TONGUE. No really, right now. We'll wait. :mad: :upsetgray :mad:

:)

LMFAO, my tongue hurts now, thanks.:p As for the population increase(9% from 2000 to 2010), all those kids haven't started driving yet, so unless you are referring to illegals without driver's licenses or insurance, I doubt it:)

I rarely drive the VX over 50 mph, even on the freeway I am in the right lane.

The F250 on the other hand....it just rides so nice at 80mph and it still gets better mpg than the VX does at 45 or 50!!! I love my big diesel truck, gets better mpg than a mini cooper and I can haul a house with it. Definitely could haul some gold bars in the bed:)
Oh, I am on this mini cooper kick cause one of the guys at work bought one for his wife. She is only getting around 24mpg around town. They are pissed.
She says she takes it easy, but for some reason, I doubt that:bgwb:

[nfpgasmask]

LOL...under Bart's house:bgwb:
It's hard to beat the internal combustion engine.
The problem "is" too many people:madb:

Amen, brother. STOP BREEDING PEOPLE! :eek: :rolleyes: :evil:

Bart

PS - Storing nuclear waste in any form is just an accident waiting to happen. "Clean" isn't really the word I would use for nuclear...and yeah, I don't want that chit in my state in any quantity.

[newthings]

Root problem -- Like Scott said, ”Too many people”. To political to tackle that one. Mother nature will fix, in her own good time.

Current battery technology is not suitable for competing with oil based gas as a car fuel.
Trying to justify electric power in a subsidized environment is like trying to quantify farts.

(Year old data) Honda has a program in SoCal, offering natural gas powered conventional cars for sale at normal unsubsidized prices. A low pressure house gas line is used with a compressor to give a partial fill up overnight. The cost of the compressor unit is about $2000.00. No one mentioned -- How about buying two compressors?”

Natural gas is the only thing that makes sense right now and for the next 10 years. We have a lot of natural gas. If the cracking extraction process does not get greedy and pollute the water tables and ruin the reputation of the product, we can get and distribute natural gas now. The natural gas stock market is slow and boring. The politicians do not champion natural gas. Politicians do subsidies and pay offs. They are not working for us.

Methane hydrate lays thick on the bottom of vast deepwater sea beds. That is natural gas and water under pressure. Rejecting that the human race will continue to breed infinitely, there is a near infinite supply of methane hydrate there for the picking. Technology is needed, but it is conventional not magical, like an unobtainable ideal battery. Sorry, the chemistry and physics just are not there.

Look at all of the quickly improving technologies we are use to. Batteries have only improved in small increments. Even high temp batteries with lots of risky side effects, are not capable of the power densities and long life, need in cars. Pull the subsidies and you could not make enough 10 foot poles for the Volts and Leafs. Soon the Priususes will be needing to be re-batteried. Who will pay and how much? Top Gear drove a Prius hard and got about 6 mpg.

But don’t get me started.

Roy

[circmand]

Root problem -- Like Scott said, ”Too many people”. To political to tackle that one. Mother nature will fix, in her own good time.

Roy

Too many people driving but on the other hand not enough paying into social security.

Think about it. That is the main problem about solving problems. One only looks at one issue and how to solve it. That translates into causing other problems usually just as bad or worse than the initial problem. Frankly it isnt too many people it is too many stupid people. There should be a law that limits who can breed.

And for those who say that would be wrong or violate their rights I say who cares. What about my right not too be unduly burdened by morons.

[Stephen Biko]

You can't compare the weight of a base model from 19 years ago to now and say its only because of safety stuff. It really doesn't matter where all the weight comes from - focusing on that is a red herring. The point is that cars weigh a helluva lot more and yet mpg is roughly the same because engine technology has come a long way. You put a modern engine in a 1990 chassis and you are looking at way better efficiency than we had before. What we had back then does not compare to what we have today.


Strange, I looked at the traffic fatalities numbers, from 94 (thats as far back as it went) to 2006, traffic deaths went up almost 10%!!! Went from 36,200 to 39,200! I wonder if that is due to speed limits going to 70mph?
Just wondering, since our vehicles got safer, yet fatalities went up.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/U.s._traffic_deaths_as_fraction_of_total_popualtio n.png/600px-U.s._traffic_deaths_as_fraction_of_total_popualtio n.png
US population in 1994: ~260M Fatalities: 40,716
US population in 2006: ~300M Fatalities: 42,642
US population in 2009: ~306M Fatalities: 33,808

That's a population increase of 15% but really only a %5 increase in fatalities by 2006 (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year) and a 17.5% decrease in fatalities by 2009. That drastic drop over the last ~5 years is due to increased safety requirements starting early in the decade.

[Stephen Biko]

And for those who say that would be wrong or violate their rights I say who cares. What about my right not too be unduly burdened by morons.

Nothing wrong with it all! I vote you and your gene pool to be the first.

[Marlin]

It really doesn't matter where all the weight comes from - focusing on that is a red herring. The point is that cars weigh a helluva lot more and yet mpg is roughly the same because engine technology has come a long way. You put a modern engine in a 1990 chassis and you are looking at way better efficiency than we had before. What we had back then does not compare to what we have today.


So we need to put new engines in old cars!!! I wonder if fuel prices affect accidents as well. When the prices go up, people drive a bit more conservatively, drive less and so on.
I couldn't find a fatalities per gallon of fuel sold or something like that. We couldn't really use miles, since we have no idea how many miles folks are driving. But gallons of gas, we could use an average mpg to get a ballpark, and then using the fatalities from each year come up with some accidents/mile figure. Say 2% of gas is not used in vehicles (lawn mowers, generators and so on, I have no real idea, just guessing. Its probably much lower than 2%)

[circmand]

Nothing wrong with it all! I vote you and your gene pool to be the first.


Fix me at let me at em I am more for the motions than the results anyhow. Just make sure my social security is covered.

[Y33TREKker]

I think the benifits are supposed to be for the environment arent they?
Exactly.

Throw the money involved into the mix though, and it's endless smoke and mirrors. Play the endless scenarios of "how much will it cost me" and/or "how much money can possibly be made" to their conclusions though and a person is still left with one reality...what good will the money that's been saved or made do if the only option is to spend it in a place that's no longer habitable?

Of course, that hinges on whether a person believes that current man-made technologies are worsening the environment, but we won't go there.

Now maybe the current technologies still aren't to the point of making electric cars viable as all-purpose vehicles, but at least attempts are being made to come up with alternatives. And in my opinion, that is where the focus should be maintained, as opposed to only pointing out perceived problems or failings.

[Scott Harness]

Just make sure my social security is covered.
Social Security is neither! :p

[Dmitrikr]

ok, Canada law allows you (at least in Ontario) to convert regular car/truck to electric but: The ministry may, at any time, cancel the vehicle permit of a registered converted electric vehicle if the vehicle fails to satisfy
any other vehicle standards which may be introduced in the future. /
source Ministry ot transportation Ontario (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/#conversions)

[circmand]

Exactly.


Now maybe the current technologies still aren't to the point of making electric cars viable as all-purpose vehicles, but at least attempts are being made to come up with alternatives. And in my opinion, that is where the focus should be maintained, as opposed to only pointing out perceived problems or failings.


If you do not point out the perceived problems and weaknesses you cant solve the problem and make it better. Like nuclear if you concentrate on the low pollution and almost unlimited power potential but ignore the problem of disposing of the waste you create a biggeer problem than you started with, You cant think 1 dimensional and solve a problem

[Y33TREKker]

If you do not point out the perceived problems and weaknesses you cant solve the problem and make it better...
Well here's your problem. You neglected part of what I said to suit yourself.

What I said was "if you ONLY point out perceived problems or failings", because only doing that, you're not going to solve any problems either.

[Stephen Biko]

I couldn't find a fatalities per gallon of fuel sold or something like that. We couldn't really use miles, since we have no idea how many miles folks are driving.

Try clicking on the links I include. You might learn something.

[circmand]

Try clicking on the links I include. You might learn something.

and you might spend the rest of your life reading a ton of links too. Lets remember some people here have more to do than reading a llong winded post with 3-4 attachments to them that are just as long.

[FlyingV77]

your all forgeting a posible solution. Water powered cars.
Im NOT going to post any info on this subject becuase i want you to reserch this topic for yourself.
VIP Stan Meyer

[circmand]

your all forgeting a posible solution. Water powered cars.
Im NOT going to post any info on this subject becuase i want you to reserch this topic for yourself.
VIP Stan Meyer

Water isalread a scarce resource and in many parts of teh world businessess are locking up water rights. If millions of cars start running on water the rewsource gets even more scarce and more expensive. Not to mention just think of how releasing all that water vapor is going to set of the global warming crowd.

[FlyingV77]

Ok wow, use cisterns to colect rain water. Practicaly zero impact on drinking sorces. Hell you can even pee in it if you have too. As far as desert areas, use gas still.

[circmand]

Ok wow, use cisterns to colect rain water. Practicaly zero impact on drinking sorces. Hell you can even pee in it if you have too. As far as desert areas, use gas still.

In this desert area we have less than 9 inches a year. The ground water is so full of minerals and chemicals your dish washer develops a layer of scale in months. That would seriously F%^* you engine up. In addition you cant even put a well in as all water has been alloted to certain uses including a minimum amount to protect fish. Many areas aroung the world have droughts on a regular basis so not enough to drink let alone power a car. California has been on 40% usage for 2 years what do you think would happen if all their cars ran on water too?

[Stephen Biko]

and you might spend the rest of your life reading a ton of links too. Lets remember some people here have more to do than reading a llong winded post with 3-4 attachments to them that are just as long.

Instead they have time to tell us all what they don't know!
Ignorance is wisdom.

[IndianaVX]

I heard part of a report last week talking about electric car sales, it mentioned how the companies were ramping up the assembly lines even though sales are so low. (trying to force something folks aren't buying). They mentioned that only 250 volts have sold, and only 10 Nissan leafs. As said, I'm not sure if that was state wide(Indiana) or nationally

[Dmitrikr]

In this desert area we have less than 9 inches a year. The ground water is so full of minerals and chemicals your dish washer develops a layer of scale in months. That would seriously F%^* you engine up. In addition you cant even put a well in as all water has been alloted to certain uses including a minimum amount to protect fish. Many areas aroung the world have droughts on a regular basis so not enough to drink let alone power a car. California has been on 40% usage for 2 years what do you think would happen if all their cars ran on water too?

hey, spens some money on solar panels and electric car - free Sun energy for desert area and california:smilewink

[circmand]

hey, spens some money on solar panels and electric car - free Sun energy for desert area and california:smilewink

But the city I live in does not allow solar panels at private residences inside the city limits. However the government and schools can use tax payer resources to put them up on their buildings. Also across the river (which private citizens are not allowed to even drill wells close to and steal those resources from whom the government allots them to) They have an old coal powered power plant they closed down and were going to switch to solar but apparently the solar arrays will interfere with the local turtle population.

Also I rent the land lord may take a dim view of my modifying the domicile plus since it costs more to instal then the energy you will save since the local utility gets any excess energy you do not use and does not pay you for it is it really a good idea.

I think maybe I will pack up my VX and head to Russia to regain my freedom