I DID IT! Line X on my cladding...

[KRemo]

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/515/thumbs/LINE_X_d.jpg (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/19574)


They also applied a product called "X-tra" in high gloss black on the side mirrors, grill and hood insert and installed the hood fangs for me. I'm very happy with the outcome.

[jdm monkey]

pics?

[KRemo]

I posted the pic in the original thread up top. You can't see it? :confused:

[Ldub]

I posted the pic in the original thread up top. You can't see it? :confused:

I can see it, I can see it even better when I click on it...:smilewink

Looks GREAT!...:yes:

[vxaddict]

That looks great! Can I ask how much that ran you to do the cladding?

[SouthJ1]

thats what im wondering about how much was it?

[KRemo]

$940 out the door, tax and all. That included them removing the cladding, I'm sure it would've been cheaper if I had taken it off and brought it to them, but I'm ok with paying them to do it. ;)

[JoFotoz]

I like it..though maybe a tad shiny for me.

I wonder how this will "weather"...and if (heaven forbid) you get a crunch in a cladding section.....

...will the Line-X be "matchable" new to old...:_thinking

jo

[RickOKC]

I like it! I hope to see it in person some day - eventually there will be another DFW get-together.

[Riff Raff]

After viewing your picture and seeing how beautiful the "X-tra" High Gloss portions are (hood insert/mirrors), I think the entire cladding should have been done in the "X-tra" (not Line-X) and kept it one paint theme. Oh well, too late now.:_crying:

[tomdietrying]

Glad to see you did it. Looks really sharp!
Peace.
Tom

[taylorRichie]

Wow! Nice... This has been on my to-do list for 2 years now... someday. :D

[Mile High VX]

Looks sharp, man...good choice!

[killinformula]

Wow... that looks amazing! I am in awe at how cool it looks. What shop in FW did it and how long did they take? I might be willing to take mine there

[VXorado]

Your ride looks great!!!!!

Its unique and now your cladding is looks indestructable.

[Mile High VX]

After viewing your picture and seeing how beautiful the "X-tra" High Gloss portions are (hood insert/mirrors), I think the entire cladding should have been done in the "X-tra" (not Line-X) and kept it one paint theme. Oh well, too late now.:_crying:

Then it would look like this:

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/ctd/2133618039.html

[Ldub]

Then it would look like this:

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/ctd/2133618039.html
;puke2;

[Riff Raff]

Then it would look like this:

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/ctd/2133618039.html

Much Mo Betta'...............although, it needs to be on something other than an Ebony so that it shows "contrast" and isn't merged into the same existing body color. On an Ebony VX, the matte subdued finish of the Line-X would look better which would show contrast between the different shades of black.

:bgwb:

[IndianaVX]

[QUOTE=Mile High VX;215320]Then it would look like this:

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/ctd/2133618039.html[/


All that work, and couldn't finish the half moon portion on rear door.......

[VX-13]

I like both the painted and Line-X, the all in black just looks awesome.

[Grif]

Painting the cladding is unforgivable IMHO. It removes so much of the VX's character.

Line-X the cladding and you actually enhance the color and textural contrasts. Hopefully we can use less drastic measures to keep our claddings in top-notch shape, closer to stock condition. But to me Line-X seems perfectly acceptable. I'll probably end up doing mine eventually. Looks great, not perfect, but great.

[KRemo]

I agree. If I wanted the cladding to look shiny black, I would've just had it painted which I think is utterly ordinary. I absolutely love the "2 tone" look and the Line X has helped make the cladding MUCH less high maintenance and MUCH more durable. I have had more compliments on the VX in the past few days since having the cladding and hood done than the entire 10 years of ownership...

Line X of West Fort Worth did it. The owners, David and Lisa are absolutely wonderful. (817) 244-6500

[djvx]

Line-X the whole thing and be done with it

[Grif]

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/515/thumbs/LINE_X_d.jpg (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/19574)


They also applied a product called "X-tra" in high gloss black on the side mirrors, grill and hood insert and installed the hood fangs for me. I'm very happy with the outcome.


For the sake of future reference, do you know what exact colors they used for each application? Did they line-x both sides of the cladding as suggested by the purported line-x rep we have commenting in a diff thread?

[KRemo]

I've actually seen a Wrangler done head to toe in Line X. Very umm....trailer park. :nob:

[KRemo]

I like it..though maybe a tad shiny for me.

I wonder how this will "weather"...and if (heaven forbid) you get a crunch in a cladding section.....

...will the Line-X be "matchable" new to old...:_thinking

jo

Also - the product will be the same now vs. 10 years from now. They use a UV protectant to prevent fading and the Line X has actually covered a few nicks and gouges that were in the cladding before. If I were to ever get into a fender bender, I could have them Line X over and cover any future problem areas. But I certainly don't expect to be bending any fenders. *knock on wood*

[Tookie]

Niiiiiiiiiiiice. Definitely a bit jealous ;)

[tom4bren]

I wonder how this will "weather"...and if (heaven forbid) you get a crunch in a cladding section.....

...will the Line-X be "matchable" new to old

Jo,

My hood insert looks the same now as it did 2 years ago. I'll try to post a pic this weekend (I need to get it cleaned up after the snow/salt/crud of the past few weeks).

I don't think that fading is going to be a problem for him.

This spring I hope to take my spare hood insert in to be LineX'd & will take a side by side comparison shot for you.

Tom

[Marlin]

Doesn't making the hood insert shiny defeat the purpose of the hood insert? It was supposed to reduce glare?
Anyway, the Line-x looks good, but I am not a huge fan of the shiny stuff on the mirrors and insert. I would have gone with Line-x on that, especially since my mirrors get whacked on the trail every once in a while, and I think the Linex would be much easier to cover scratches than the paint.

[tom4bren]

IMHO, the texture of the LineX allows the higher gloss of the hood insert to still cut down on glare. I've noticed NO difference in glare before/after the insert was coated.

[Marlin]

IMHO, the texture of the LineX allows the higher gloss of the hood insert to still cut down on glare. I've noticed NO difference in glare before/after the insert was coated.

He didn't line-x the insert, some other kind of paint/coating. I am Riff on this one, it doesn't 'fit' with the Line-xed cladding.

I can see where the textured stuff would cut down on glare, no smooth surface to reflect off of.

[nfpgasmask]

It looks pretty good. Know what would completely set it off? A 2" lift, some black rims, and some nice A/T or M/T tires!!!

;) Bart

[tom4bren]

He didn't line-x the insert, some other kind of paint/coating.

Ooops! I forgetted that part.

Oh well, the info is still good for anyone that may be interested in putting LineX on their insert.

Maybe he went with the non-textured finish so that the insert fangs would work:_confused

[LINE-X]

Maybe he went with the non-textured finish so that the insert fangs would work:_confused

That's exactly correct, the fangs would probably not have worked well if the insert was coated with the bedliner material.

The LINE-X bedliner material was treated with black Xtra. Xtra is UV resistant (and thus fade resistant) and will hold its gloss. Xtra contains a DuPont Kevlar micropulp for enhanced durability. The insert and mirrors are just costed with Xtra without the bedliner material.

The cladding has been encapsulated with the LINE-X bedliner material and the cladding will be able to take a LOT more abuse than just painted cladding.

Personally, I like the contrast between the texture and smooth finishes, it looks unique and pretty darn sharp in person :yesgray:

KRemo: THANK YOU!

About that comment regarding Jeeps. We apply LINE-X to Jeeps almost monthly. I think they look pretty good also!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Jeep/OrangeJeep10.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Jeep/OrangeJeep11.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Jeep/JeepBeige1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Jeep/ScramblerG.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Jeep/GreenJeep16.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/GreenJeep2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/GreenJeep1.jpg

Before:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/redjpb1b.jpg

During:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/redjeepbooth.jpg

After:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/redjeepc1.jpg

[nfpgasmask]

OK, Mr. Line-X, can you post more or post a link to more photos of that beige Jeep or any other beige vehicles you have done?

Thanks - Bart

[LINE-X]

Here are two different beige Jeeps. After we applied LINE-X to one of them, the owner applied some military insignia.

First Jeep which is the same as the one previously posted:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Jeep/JeepBeige3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Jeep/JeepBeige2.jpg

Second Jeep:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Jeep/Jeep2Tone1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Jeep/Jeep2Tone2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Jeep/Jeep2Tone3.jpg

Owner's pictures:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Jeep/JeepHoyt3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Jeep/JeepHoyt1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Jeep/JeepHoyt2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/PuebloGoldgrill1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/PuebloGoldTank1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Gas1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Ford/PuebloGold3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Dodge/09DodgeXtra1.jpg

Looks sort of silver in the pictures, but it's actually a beige color.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Chevy/ChevyXtra3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Chevy/ChevyXtra5.jpg

Tinker toy props in beige LINE-X (for Fort Worth Museum of Science and History):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Tinker1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Tinker6.jpg

[LINE-X]

I realize this is a VehiCross forum, not a Jeep or other forum. But, if you will allow me to post those pics: For those of you in the Fort Worth area, we applied LINE-X to the interior of this vehicle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Porsche/Porsche10.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Porsche/Porsche3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Porsche/Porsche8.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Porsche/Porsche9.jpg

[atilla_the_fun]

Is it possible to do a white (white like our Ironman) Line-X??

[LINE-X]

Yes, we can apply white. We charge a little more for white and yellow because those colors a bit more difficult to work with though.

Here's a Ford pearlcoat, a very difficult color to apply, takes all day!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Ford/FordCodePV.jpg

[KRemo]

I like the pearl!!!! :yeso:

[jhigareda]

I think my question is now answered! This VX is not lifted an is sporting 285/75/16
So mine will fit...............YEEEEESsss!

[djvx]

Patrick Cooper's Line-x VX is as sick as it gets. :drool2: If I knew how to post his picture here I would.

[atilla_the_fun]

Patrick Cooper's Line-x VX is as sick as it gets. :drool2: If I knew how to post his picture here I would.


gallery -> gallery links -> upload photos

[Riff Raff]

KRemo--- You might also want to consider re-painting the Hood Fangs in "White" to match your Ironman body color. They would really stand-out against the black background on the hood insert and would give it a snazzy look. Just a thought.

:bgwb:

[Mile High VX]

Patrick Cooper's Line-x VX is as sick as it gets. :drool2: If I knew how to post his picture here I would.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/11417/ppuser/2459/sl/p

[LINE-X]

KRemo--- You might also want to consider re-painting the Hood Fangs in "White" to match your Ironman body color. They would really stand-out against the black background on the hood insert and would give it a snazzy look. Just a thought.

Photochop:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Vehicross/Vehicross15a.jpg

[atilla_the_fun]

the fangs are the silver fangs on the front of the car, next to the isuzu emblem =)

[tom4bren]

In this case, they are an added feature that they put on the hood insert. There have been a few other members who have done this (Ldub & Marlin come to mind).

Usually when we talk about the fangs though, you are right ... the ones on the grill.

[LINE-X]

Usually when we talk about the fangs though, you are right ... the ones on the grill.

Alrighty then...another photochop:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Vehicross/Vehicross15b.jpg

[tom4bren]

LINE-X,

I can't see your pix whilst at work but I think you got the one that Riff Raff asked for in the first pic.

My grill fangs were removed by the PO & I've never wanted to replace them. I like the blacked out look mo betta.

[atilla_the_fun]

done better =):

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/LINE_X_d1.jpg (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/19577)

[nfpgasmask]

Man, that beige looks nice.

Here's a pic of my Trooper. You can see what I am thinking.

http://www.isuzugeek.org/kt/064.jpg

My concerns with doing this are as follows:

1) Cost, I would want to do the interior and exterior. My Trooper is stripped on the inside already, and the only thing needed to do a perfect job would be to pull the glass. Does Line-X pull glass or would I have to do that on my own and then have the vehicle delivered to a Line-X shop?

2) My Trooper is currently spray painted on the inside and out, what kind of prep work (time, extra cost, etc) would be involved for Line-X to do a thorough job?

3) Is the beige very flat or is it shiney? I would would like to maintain that low sheen look, like a matte finish.

I think my Trooper would look great if I had this done. I would even consider having the roof rack, bumpers and grill done as well as some gas cans to match.

4) Another question, how does Line-X work around door hinges and such? Do you guys take all that apart (remove doors and hinges) and spray each piece? A little more infor there would be excellent.

What do you think something like this would cost on average?

Thanks - Bart

[circmand]

Not a big fan of the price yet but when I get a few more notches and dings it will be a bargain compared to buying new cladding. Once again who did you use and can you get them to do up a how to? I have seen posts that some shops refuse to do it because they do not think it can be done. With a how to from another shop it mght help others get this done.

One other thing any idea of the weight increase from the product?

[LINE-X]

Man, that beige looks nice.

Here's a pic of my Trooper. You can see what I am thinking.

http://www.isuzugeek.org/kt/064.jpg

My concerns with doing this are as follows:

1) Cost, I would want to do the interior and exterior. My Trooper is stripped on the inside already, and the only thing needed to do a perfect job would be to pull the glass. Does Line-X pull glass or would I have to do that on my own and then have the vehicle delivered to a Line-X shop?
LINE-X dealers set their own prices, so prices will vary, you should check with your local dealer. Go to golinex.com and use the dealer search function if you wish. You don't need to pull any glass, it will be masked off.

2) My Trooper is currently spray painted on the inside and out, what kind of prep work (time, extra cost, etc) would be involved for Line-X to do a thorough job?
Nothing out of the ordinary. Its surface will be scuffed and then cleaned prior to the LINE-X application.

3)Is the beige very flat or is it shiney? I would would like to maintain that low sheen look, like a matte finish.
LINE-X Xtra is glossy, but a gloss reducer can be added to it. However, it will never go to plain "flat".
I think my Trooper would look great if I had this done. I would even consider having the roof rack, bumpers and grill done as well as some gas cans to match.

4) Another question, how does Line-X work around door hinges and such? Do you guys take all that apart (remove doors and hinges) and spray each piece? A little more infor there would be excellent.
If the hinges will function with the bedliner material, then we spray them. If they won't function, we just apply the Xtra without the bedliner material.

What do you think something like this would cost on average?
I would say a within a range of $2,500 to $3,000 for the interior and exterior.

The owner of this truck rolled the truck. He had it repaired but instead of painting it, we LINE-X'd it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Toyota/TacomaRed1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Toyota/TacomaRed3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Toyota/TacomaRed9.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Toyota/TacomaRed11.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Toyota/TacomaRed8.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Toyota/TacomaRed7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/Toyota/TacomaRed6.jpg

[LINE-X]

Not a big fan of the price yet but when I get a few more notches and dings it will be a bargain compared to buying new cladding. Once again who did you use and can you get them to do up a how to? I have seen posts that some shops refuse to do it because they do not think it can be done. With a how to from another shop it mght help others get this done.
KRemo used our shop. www.LinexFortWorthTexas.com

One other thing any idea of the weight increase from the product?
LINE-X weighs .7 pounds per sqft at 1/8" thickness. The thickness is probably half that on the backside though. The front side will be up to 1/8" but not 1/8" in all areas.

See answers in red.

[ZEUS]

Line-X, thank you for all this info - very helpful!

[nfpgasmask]

Yes, thank you. This is awesome info. I might just do this with my Trooper in the spring. I know I want to do the black parts, I'm just not 100% sure I want to do the tan parts yet. I might still opt for regular paint, however the Line-X option is very appealing since this is my trail rig and I'm sure i will drive through an overgrown trail in the future.

Thanks again,

Bart

[Marlin]

I was at LKQ this morning, a helped a guy getting some misc Zu parts. He owns a body shop. He said they have done some jeeps with the Raptor spray kits and it came out great. The kit is on sale at a local auto paint shop here with the gun for 119. Under 500 bucks and he would do all the prep. (not including the cladding, I will do that myself) I see a possible birthday present for the VX. He said yellow is hard to do as well. But the raptor kit is completely tintable. I may try this for the cladding in black, and possibly hit up the whole truck in that army green I have been wanting:bgwb:
Thanks for the lead on raptor LineX!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCNc5OnOR1c

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/U-Pol-Raptor-Clear-Tintable-Truck-Bed-Liner-Kit-ME-821-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3f031dc967QQitemZ27063 5223399QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools#ht_3409wt_ 668

[LINE-X]

Be careful when using solvent based products on plastics including polypropylene. Some solvents will melt plastics. Raptor does contain a lot of solvents (ACETONE, XYLENE, N-BUTYL ACETATE, 2-METHOXY-1-METHYLETHYL ACETATE), so you might test a spot first. Better safe than sorry!

[tom4bren]

I've still got the spare nose piece cladding. Lemme know if it's needed for any practice. It's been trimmed for tire clearance though so prolly not useful for anything other than practice.

LINE-X,

What's the process for masking off an area that you don't want covered? What I'm thinking about is masking off lettering in the center of an area that is going to be covered in LineX to let the original material provide just enough contrast to make it still visible. I'm not talking about real fine detail here, just a 4X4 or VX as far as the lettering goes.

[VXjunky]

are the fangs really made of titanium as ive heard they are...if so thats to unique to consiider covering IMO

[LINE-X]

LINE-X,

What's the process for masking off an area that you don't want covered? What I'm thinking about is masking off lettering in the center of an area that is going to be covered in LineX to let the original material provide just enough contrast to make it still visible. I'm not talking about real fine detail here, just a 4X4 or VX as far as the lettering goes.

There are several methods which depend on the challenges involved.
1. If it's an area that will not have thick bedliner material around it, simply use masking tape. However, you may need to use a razor blade to cut the bedliner material if it gets thick is a spot. Careful not to end up with masking tape underneath the bediner's edge, it will be very difficult to remove it!
2. If possible, we use a wire tape. We can mask, spray, and then pull the wire to produce a perfect edge.
3. Remove the emblem, apply the bedliner, glue the emblem on the bedliner material with "3M Emblem Adhesive".


are the fangs really made of titanium as ive heard they are...if so thats to unique to consiider covering IMO

I believe it's just plastic.

[tom4bren]

2. If possible, we use a wire tape. We can mask, spray, and then pull the wire to produce a perfect edge.


Thanks.

That's what I was looking for. Do they remove the tape/wire while the LineX is still wet or after it has cured?

[LINE-X]

LINE-X dries in 4 seconds and the wire can be pulled immediately. If LINE-X Xtra is used, it needs about an hour to dry. Then, the wire can be pulled.

Drying and curing are two different things. Curing is the completion of the chemical reaction(s). It takes LINE-X (XS-100, the bedliner product) about 24 hours to cure.

[Robbomaz]

No need to find a line thru the rocks any more - looks like you could just grind out a new path :)

[CrnCnn]

This is the color i want!!



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/GreenJeep2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/123Gone/GreenJeep1.jpg

[vt_maverick]

Looks like you and Marlin might match...

[eternal21]

Line-X, two questions:

1) How much to do the exact same thing if I take off my own cladding? I'd want the side-view mirrors and hood insert Line-Xed w/the same material as the cladding, though.

2) Do you use some type of adhesive agent on the cladding prior to spraying w/the Line-X?

[vt_maverick]

I'd want the windows and hood insert Line-Xed w/the same material as the cladding, though.

WINDOWS??? :eek:

[eternal21]

WINDOWS??? :eek:

side-view mirrors, my bad

[LINE-X]

Line-X, two questions:

1) How much to do the exact same thing if I take off my own cladding? I'd want the side-view mirrors and hood insert Line-Xed w/the same material as the cladding, though.

2) Do you use some type of adhesive agent on the cladding prior to spraying w/the Line-X?

Cladding and hood insert $550 with LINE-X and LINE-X Xtra. Can't apply LINE-X to the side mirrors, but we can apply only Xtra.

We tried various primers, what worked the best was no primer, but we felt that the LINE-X must encapsulate the cladding.

[eternal21]

Cladding and hood insert $550 with LINE-X and LINE-X Xtra. Can't apply LINE-X to the side mirrors, but we can apply only Xtra.

We tried various primers, what worked the best was no primer, but we felt that the LINE-X must encapsulate the cladding.

In the research I've done, everything says that since the cladding isn't metal, yes, the part has to be encapsulated. $550 is inclusive of tax, correct? I'm not fond of the X-tra, I'd like the regular Line-X on the hood, too. If I separate the mirrors and you can encapsulate them, would you guys take that on, too?

[LINE-X]

$550 is not inclusive of sales tax (only if you live in Texas).

Standard LINE-X will fade over time, you might not be happy about that in the future. If you don't like glossy Xtra, there is an additive that cuts the gloss. The side mirrors have a hinge, the LINE-X may interfere.

[vt_maverick]

Is there extra cost associated with "de-glossing" the Xtra finish like I believe you mentioned above?

[LINE-X]

I'd say $30 or so, which is just my cost.

[eternal21]

$550 is not inclusive of sales tax (only if you live in Texas).

Standard LINE-X will fade over time, you might not be happy about that in the future. If you don't like glossy Xtra, there is an additive that cuts the gloss. The side mirrors have a hinge, the LINE-X may interfere.

I'm in ATX, so sales tax would be applicable for me. And you're correct, I don't want it fading, nor do I want it exceptionally glossy, so yes, the additive would be a good thing. Are you guys willing to knock down the price given a certain quantity, a la a group buy?

[LINE-X]

I'm always open to suggestions! :)

[tom4bren]

I've got a hood insert that I'd like to get done so if that helps with a group discount, add that to the list. I could even drop it off in Austin at the end of the month.

Tom

[Tookie]

Aww man, don't suppose you got a shop down in Honolulu? Would love to do this at some point too!

I loved the photoshopped green&black linex'd VX. Loved.

[KRemo]

Just wanna say thanks to Line X for taking this job on. Every shop I called said it couldn't be done, but I knew a few people on this forum had already done it, just needed to find someone willing to try! I have gotten more compliments on my VX since having in Line X'ed than when I bought it in 2000!