Taxes!

[Ebenezr]

Tax his land, tax his wage,
Tax his bed in which he lays.
Tax his tractor, tax his mule,
Teach him taxes is the rule.

Tax his cow, tax his goat,
Tax his pants, tax his coat.
Tax his ties, tax his shirts,
Tax his work, tax his dirt.

Tax his chew, tax his smoke,
Teach him taxes are no joke.
Tax his car, tax his grass,
Tax the roads he must pass.

Tax his food, tax his drink,
Tax him if he tries to think.
Tax his sodas, tax his beers,
If he cries, tax his tears.

Tax his bills, tax his gas,
Tax his notes, tax his cash.
Tax him good and let him know
That after taxes, he has no dough.

If he hollers, tax him more,
Tax him until he's good and sore.
Tax his coffin, tax his grave,
Tax the sod in which he lays.

Put these words upon his tomb,
"Taxes drove me to my doom!"
And when he's gone, we won't relax,
We'll still be after the inheritance tax.

[vt_maverick]

Bad week turning into a bad month there Eb?

[Marlin]

LOL, well, not really, you forgot the second verse, the part where you give it to all those that do not have a mule, a job, a car, a work ethic, a useful skill, an ounce of pride, a dab of patriotism or a smattering of responsibility. Those taxes must be redistributed to the Sick, the Lame, and the Lazy.

[Ebenezr]

Bad week turning into a bad month there Eb?

Hmmm. How did you guess that Mr VT Maverick??

[Osteomata]

Or they are redistributed to the largest defense organization in the world to pay the salaries and benefits to our military personnel, eh Marlin? The idea that all those less fortunate than you are Sick Lame and Lazy is pretty... silly would be a nice word. Particularly given that the income tax rate and overall tax burden is not only one of the lowest in the developed industrialized world, but also lower than it was during the Reagan era and nearly any other time in the modern period.

[Ebenezr]

Or they are redistributed to the largest defense organization in the world to pay the salaries and benefits to our military personnel, eh Marlin? The idea that all those less fortunate than you are Sick Lame and Lazy is pretty... silly would be a nice word. Particularly given that the income tax rate and overall tax burden is not only one of the lowest in the developed industrialized world, but also lower than it was during the Reagan era and nearly any other time in the modern period.


Ah I don't know osteo. 45 million are on gov assistance right now. I wouldn't call em all lazy though. We are seeing people who up till this economy would have never dreamed of being on food stamps and unemployment.

[Marlin]

Nope, but when I read articles on CNN about proposals for cradle to grave assistance for latino and black males in New York to the tune of 100s of millions.....I went through the roof. Cradle to grave?! What the hell does that mean? What are we telling them? No accountability, "you aren't good enough to do it on your own, so here, from the day you are born to the day you die, here is some money"...here in a few years, they will be the majority, they will be the "man". Does that mean I will get free money to sit at home and do nothing when I become a minority?
Of the 45 million on food stamps, how many of those really need it? 5 million, 10 million? How many are generational welfare families? How many give an honest effort? I would have to guess some very small percentage, but its just that, a guess.
The total defense budget is less than 1/4th of our social entitlement programs budget. At least the defense budget does something useful, although I admit that there is a buttload of waste in it, but without it, we wouldn't have any of the other budgets.
But the military does more than just fight terrorists, lol. We were one of the first on site after the Tsunami, Katrina, Japan, and so on. We do everything. We risk our lives, we help others, for way below minimum wage. Just so happens in a recession that my benefits look pretty sweet, 5 years ago when we were riding high, the military had to push real hard to get kids to enlist, wasn't such a good deal then. Grass is always greener on the other side...unless chuck norris was there, then its likely covered with blood and tears:)

[Osteomata]

Way below minimum wage my ***. Complete nonsense, and it becomes increasingly difficult to take you seriously about things that you might otherwise have good points on when you spout something like that. Compensation is a total sum, not convenient cherry picking. I agree with fiscal conservatives that see the real need for entitlement reform, but complaining about your deeply feared food stamp queens, especially (gasp) the black and minority ones, is little more than venting, particularly when you admit your totally guessing on the percentages in need.

[Grif]

Yes, entitlements should be only for rich white people and the corporations which proxy for them. < sarcasm >

[Ebenezr]

Hey I have a great idea...let's discuss religion instead. :)

[circmand]

Or they are redistributed to the largest defense organization in the world to pay the salaries and benefits to our military personnel, eh Marlin? The idea that all those less fortunate than you are Sick Lame and Lazy is pretty... silly would be a nice word. Particularly given that the income tax rate and overall tax burden is not only one of the lowest in the developed industrialized world, but also lower than it was during the Reagan era and nearly any other time in the modern period.

You pick 2 taxes and rates that help your otherwise false propaganda. The overall tax burden on the American citizen is higher than at any time in the past except during WWII. It is the highest it's ever been in relation to GNP and as S&P stated it is unsustainable for even the next 10 years let alone continuing onward. BO state tax the rich. At what rate? If you took 100% of the richest 10% in the country it wouldn't pay the debt we owe China. It's illconceived. There used to be a time we helped our fellowman without the Liberals telling us how much we should help them. Now we have 70 government organizations redistributing $700,000,000,000.00 every year and the problem gets worse and the solution is more organizations and more wealth distribution. Quit listening to the politicians who get reelected by continueing to feed this monster and do some research.

[Marlin]

Way below minimum wage my ***. Complete nonsense, and it becomes increasingly difficult to take you seriously about things that you might otherwise have good points on when you spout something like that. Compensation is a total sum, not convenient cherry picking. I agree with fiscal conservatives that see the real need for entitlement reform, but complaining about your deeply feared food stamp queens, especially (gasp) the black and minority ones, is little more than venting, particularly when you admit your totally guessing on the percentages in need.

Your right, lets talk about compensation. As senior enlisted, I bring home 60K a year in actual money, all allowances included. Now, lets say my medical insurance is worth 700 a month. Lets make it an even 10K a year with dental. That puts me at 70K a year. I stand duty every 4 days, plus full work days. That is 7-8 duty days a month, we are at 168 hours. So just in duty days, I am already working more hours than a civilian. Now, I still have 16 days of work days left, we usually work 0700 to 1600. Thats another 144 hours a month. This does not include PT time (0530-0630) and so on. We do not get mandatory breaks, we have no OSHA stuff, or working laws or whatnot. We are now at 312 hours a month. I do get 30 days of paid leave each year. That leaves 11 months of this schedule. 3432 hours. That is 20 bucks an hour with all compensation included. That is while we are in port, not deployed. Now, lets say its a deployment cycle, on the CVN76, I did 2.5 deployments in 2 years. So basically, 6 months each year. Those years I put in about 6020 hours, for the same pay. That means I am down to 10 bucks an hour, actual cash is below minimum wage pending what state you live in.
I operate a nuclear reactor, my civilian counter part makes close to double my income, same medical benefits, and only does about 200 hours a month at work. (I used 4 weeks for the sake of simplicity) That is 2200 hours a year. That means he is making around 65-70 bucks an hour to do a much easier job. They only do their actual job, no training, no ship's quals, no maintenance unless they are a maintenance guy, no dealing with NUBs, no going to sea, no threat of life and limb, air conditioning and so on.
Now having said all that, seemings that a DB TSA agent makes 13 an hour starting, I am way under the curve. I am a licensed nuclear operator, 12 years experience, 2 classes away from a bachelors.
Now, I will grant you that there are folks like Yeoman, basically secretaries, that get the same pay I do. There are cooks and all the other menial jobs that are WAY overpaid. They are doing alright compared to their civilian counterpart. They also do no represent the bulk of our armed forces, nor do they represent the most important parts. Without our engineers, mechanics,electronics guys and so on, we would be nothing.

Anyway, back to the welfare thing. Whites account for a little over half of the people on welfare. Made me kind of sad to think that you were right when I saw that on the census site. Then I realized, whites account for 72.4% of the US population. That means, although whites are half the welfare recipients, that means the other half comes from the remaining 28% of non-whites?
Prior to the recession, 1 in 3 blacks were on welfare, or rather 30%. Only 5% of whites. Hispanic/asian were about the same as the blacks. That number has not changed, yet the ratio of whites/nonwhite is getting smaller and smaller, soon to be overtaken and become less than one.
Taking all that, that means that our entitlement will only get more expensive, unless there are some MAJOR cultural changes at a familial level for the minorities.
So explain to me how this is just ranting? Show me some numbers that show otherwise. I pulled my data straight from the US census website. Lots of neat stuff on there. So *gasp* away, now that I have the percentages, it makes me feel worse.

I would love to see data about how many folks on welfare/state/federal aid, regardless of color, have cell phones, internet, cable, drink alcohol or smoke. How many wants do they have while I pay for their needs? Wish there was some way to actually quantify it, but since our government can't cut the wants when we are broke, how can you expect an individual american to do it?

[circmand]

Your right, lets talk about compensation. As senior enlisted, I bring home 60K a year in actual money, all allowances included. Now, lets say my medical insurance is worth 700 a month. Lets make it an even 10K a year with dental. That puts me at 70K a year. I stand duty every 4 days, plus full work days. That is 7-8 duty days a month, we are at 168 hours. So just in duty days, I am already working more hours than a civilian. Now, I still have 16 days of work days left, we usually work 0700 to 1600. Thats another 144 hours a month. This does not include PT time (0530-0630) and so on. We do not get mandatory breaks, we have no OSHA stuff, or working laws or whatnot. We are now at 312 hours a month. I do get 30 days of paid leave each year. That leaves 11 months of this schedule. 3432 hours. That is 20 bucks an hour with all compensation included. That is while we are in port, not deployed. Now, lets say its a deployment cycle, on the CVN76, I did 2.5 deployments in 2 years. So basically, 6 months each year. Those years I put in about 6020 hours, for the same pay. That means I am down to 10 bucks an hour, actual cash is below minimum wage pending what state you live in.
I operate a nuclear reactor, my civilian counter part makes close to double my income, same medical benefits, and only does about 200 hours a month at work. (I used 4 weeks for the sake of simplicity) That is 2200 hours a year. That means he is making around 65-70 bucks an hour to do a much easier job. They only do their actual job, no training, no ship's quals, no maintenance unless they are a maintenance guy, no dealing with NUBs, no going to sea, no threat of life and limb, air conditioning and so on.
Now having said all that, seemings that a DB TSA agent makes 13 an hour starting, I am way under the curve. I am a licensed nuclear operator, 12 years experience, 2 classes away from a bachelors.
Now, I will grant you that there are folks like Yeoman, basically secretaries, that get the same pay I do. There are cooks and all the other menial jobs that are WAY overpaid. They are doing alright compared to their civilian counterpart. They also do no represent the bulk of our armed forces, nor do they represent the most important parts. Without our engineers, mechanics,electronics guys and so on, we would be nothing.

Anyway, back to the welfare thing. Whites account for a little over half of the people on welfare. Made me kind of sad to think that you were right when I saw that on the census site. Then I realized, whites account for 72.4% of the US population. That means, although whites are half the welfare recipients, that means the other half comes from the remaining 28% of non-whites?
Prior to the recession, 1 in 3 blacks were on welfare, or rather 30%. Only 5% of whites. Hispanic/asian were about the same as the blacks. That number has not changed, yet the ratio of whites/nonwhite is getting smaller and smaller, soon to be overtaken and become less than one.
Taking all that, that means that our entitlement will only get more expensive, unless there are some MAJOR cultural changes at a familial level for the minorities.
So explain to me how this is just ranting? Show me some numbers that show otherwise. I pulled my data straight from the US census website. Lots of neat stuff on there. So *gasp* away, now that I have the percentages, it makes me feel worse.

I would love to see data about how many folks on welfare/state/federal aid, regardless of color, have cell phones, internet, cable, drink alcohol or smoke. How many wants do they have while I pay for their needs? Wish there was some way to actually quantify it, but since our government can't cut the wants when we are broke, how can you expect an individual american to do it?

You are a rascist Republican who hates children and kicks puppies. With a chorus of Kumbayah and the liberal slogan "Think of the Children"

By the way for our liberal readers who do not understand sarcasm this is it.

[housertl]

I did 2.5 deployments in 2 years.

And that's on the most expensive platform to put underway. I used to do 200-250 days a year at sea on a FFG, working 20-21 hours a day 6 days a week.

Hoo Yah, underway!

[Marlin]

You are a rascist Republican who hates children and kicks puppies. With a chorus of Kumbayah and the liberal slogan "Think of the Children"

By the way for our liberal readers who do not understand sarcasm this is it.

LOL, I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN!!! Although I share most republican views, I am more of a libertarian/independent. Not a big fan of religion and I am pro choice. I am pro legalization of pot, to save money in law enforcement and make lots of tax revenue.:) Be careful when you make assumptions, someone may come back with actual numbers to back up their point...lol.
:bgwb::bgwb:

[Ebenezr]

Ding ding and round 3 begins with Marlin in the red trunks with 13 wins 2 tko's and 2 losses and in the blue "Osteo" aka Osteomata with ........
:argue::jump::badhorse:

[Osteomata]

I have a tendency to ignore areas of agreement in favor battling out the disagreements because frankly, whats the fun telling each how much we agree when you can angrily counter and debate, heh? But let me break character and suggest the things that we are in general agreement about, so as to proceed from some common ground:

1. I think the current model of revenue vs expenditure is unsustainable and will require major structural change to make us solvent. I wish more people were aware of the $40T expenditure for the next ten years, and that even with the GOPs political victory on the debt ceiling, that plan will not in any way make us solvent, it merely delays an inevitable reckoning.

2. Entitelment reform MUST be part of the solution, and will probably take the form of raising Social Security full payment age, adjusting the cost of living method of calucuation for SS, means testing for Medicare, and reducing block grants to states for Medicaide. I do not, however, see any way of maintaining a reasonable, i.e., lower than most of the rest of the industrialized developed world, social safety net without revenue increases (tax code revision) and defense budget major cuts. If you want grandad to get his SSN check, a check that he invested decades of working towards, and his medical need attended to, something else he invested toward, and wish to avoid a dramatic increase in roving packs of diseased illiterate children (im getting hyperbolic for effect here), then we need to not only restrucgure the core programs, but also to fix the utterly captured by special interest (including both corporate and other) tax code and revenue shortfalls.

Where we disagree:
1. I don't particlarly concern myself with an obsessive race breakdown for the poor, but rather try to maintain some respect and compassion for those that are less fortunate than I am. It serves no purpose, and strikes me as spiteful, to dismiss those that are receiving public assistance, as a whole or even generally, as lazy and weak blood suckers, regardless of the ethnic demographics. I try to remember that a large part of the justification for public assistance, particularly those "cradle" programs that so irk you, is that the are intended for the children of the poor, and are intended to serve as an investment. For instance, providing early education intervention, community child rearing classes and infant health check ups tends to reduce later health and development issues which end up costing the state and community even more, much more, down the line. Now maybe you are skeptical of the utility of these programs and believe the benefits are exagerrated. OK! Skepticism is good! But the advocates of these programs are pretty mainstream and not just a bunch Trotskyites in Che Guevara shirts. These programs are rather small potatoes in the whole entitlment program debate, they pale in comparison to the need to revise Medicare, Medicaide, and SS. Now

2. Military compensation: I don't trust your numbers, and I think you have drastically moved the goal posts. You started with "paid way under minimum wage" and have chaged it to "my specific situation, during a specified window of my career does not equal what I would make as a civilian." These are radically different questions, the first is indefensible, the latter is possibly true but not representative for the majority of service members. I served for two decades as well and continue to work on base, and I am all too familiar with the cherry picking of data that goes on to justify how poorly paid service members think they are. Even if I accept your situation at face value, I absolutely do not think it representative, you leave our a number of critical factors, you ignore civilian equivalent requirements, fail to include full compensation, do not include intangible benefits of which there are many, and seem to be all in favor of market determinations accept where it comes to the voluntary service. What about including the wide spread Navy transitional rotations between ship and shore duty? You know as well as I do that shore duty entails WAY less hours, almost no duty section rotation, and no deployments, etc etc. Why not mention the plethora of bonuses and tax advantages? Granted, not everyone of these is applicable to all service members at all times, but a heck of a lot of them are very widespread, and apply to you.
Base Pay
Variable Houseing Allowance (untaxed)
Uniform allowance (untaxed)
Basic Allowance for Subsistance (untaxed, not provided while at see/in the field)
Family Seperation Pay
Hazardous duty Pay
Hostile Fire Pay
Tax exemption for most pay while deployed in our major conflict zones
Health/Dental
Health/Dental for family
G.I. eduction bill
Reenlistment bonus
Nuke pay
Flight pay
SGLI
TSP program
20 retirement plan
Advanced education opportunities.
The hearfelt thanks and appreciation of complete strangers.

There are others, and a whole slew of difficult to monetorize ones. They all have a legit reason (accept those damn pilots sucking down aviator pay while in non-flying status, those guys suck, heh.). I am not arguing they should not exist, but they need to be included in the calculations.

3. This is a minor point towards a larger issue: Cell phones are completely ubiquitous, and nearly required to compete for a job. They cost little more than a land line and are far more utilitarian. If you are honestly gonna get wrapped around the axle on whether a guy on public assistance has a mobile, then we are unlikely to find common ground.



Your right, lets talk about compensation. As senior enlisted, I bring home 60K a year in actual money, all allowances included. Now, lets say my medical insurance is worth 700 a month. Lets make it an even 10K a year with dental. That puts me at 70K a year. I stand duty every 4 days, plus full work days. That is 7-8 duty days a month, we are at 168 hours. So just in duty days, I am already working more hours than a civilian. Now, I still have 16 days of work days left, we usually work 0700 to 1600. Thats another 144 hours a month. This does not include PT time (0530-0630) and so on. We do not get mandatory breaks, we have no OSHA stuff, or working laws or whatnot. We are now at 312 hours a month. I do get 30 days of paid leave each year. That leaves 11 months of this schedule. 3432 hours. That is 20 bucks an hour with all compensation included. That is while we are in port, not deployed. Now, lets say its a deployment cycle, on the CVN76, I did 2.5 deployments in 2 years. So basically, 6 months each year. Those years I put in about 6020 hours, for the same pay. That means I am down to 10 bucks an hour, actual cash is below minimum wage pending what state you live in.
I operate a nuclear reactor, my civilian counter part makes close to double my income, same medical benefits, and only does about 200 hours a month at work. (I used 4 weeks for the sake of simplicity) That is 2200 hours a year. That means he is making around 65-70 bucks an hour to do a much easier job. They only do their actual job, no training, no ship's quals, no maintenance unless they are a maintenance guy, no dealing with NUBs, no going to sea, no threat of life and limb, air conditioning and so on.
Now having said all that, seemings that a DB TSA agent makes 13 an hour starting, I am way under the curve. I am a licensed nuclear operator, 12 years experience, 2 classes away from a bachelors.
Now, I will grant you that there are folks like Yeoman, basically secretaries, that get the same pay I do. There are cooks and all the other menial jobs that are WAY overpaid. They are doing alright compared to their civilian counterpart. They also do no represent the bulk of our armed forces, nor do they represent the most important parts. Without our engineers, mechanics,electronics guys and so on, we would be nothing.

Anyway, back to the welfare thing. Whites account for a little over half of the people on welfare. Made me kind of sad to think that you were right when I saw that on the census site. Then I realized, whites account for 72.4% of the US population. That means, although whites are half the welfare recipients, that means the other half comes from the remaining 28% of non-whites?
Prior to the recession, 1 in 3 blacks were on welfare, or rather 30%. Only 5% of whites. Hispanic/asian were about the same as the blacks. That number has not changed, yet the ratio of whites/nonwhite is getting smaller and smaller, soon to be overtaken and become less than one.
Taking all that, that means that our entitlement will only get more expensive, unless there are some MAJOR cultural changes at a familial level for the minorities.
So explain to me how this is just ranting? Show me some numbers that show otherwise. I pulled my data straight from the US census website. Lots of neat stuff on there. So *gasp* away, now that I have the percentages, it makes me feel worse.

I would love to see data about how many folks on welfare/state/federal aid, regardless of color, have cell phones, internet, cable, drink alcohol or smoke. How many wants do they have while I pay for their needs? Wish there was some way to actually quantify it, but since our government can't cut the wants when we are broke, how can you expect an individual american to do it?

[Golfindoc]

Marlin,
That was pretty funny! I think if we legalized marijuana and taxed it like cigarettes we could eliminate the bnational debt!

[Osteomata]

I'm always a little suspicous of someone who tells me to "do some research" while providing no references, links, or numbers that weren't pulled out of their butt, heh. So:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/tax_burden_country_ranks_2009.html
Demonstarting USA is ranked 48 out of 65 assessed countries in overall tax burden (not limited to just income tax!) Nearly all other OECD, especially the first worlders, have a greater tax burden, and few of them are attempting to, how can I put this neutrally, do what we do with our military.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/the-tax-burden-around-the-developed-world/
Tax revnue as a percentage of GDP

http://www.forbes.com/global/2006/0522/032a.html
Another tax burden assessment, but this one using 2004 data, which is not too far off since Bush II tax cuts came into effect in 2001 and 2003.

So yeah, I think our revenue stream compared to the rest of the developed world is lighter. So how about that tax burden compared to other decades? I have mostly 2010 data, so we shall see how 2011 and the sloooooww recovery impacts them, but for now the numbers are pretty convincing regarding our low tax burden:

US tax burden lowest in 60 years as a percentage of GDP, coming from Bruce Bartlett, Reagan and Bush I economist:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/are-taxes-in-the-u-s-high-or-low/

Again, US tax burden lowest point in 60 years, including National, State, and Local taxes:
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2010/05/11/US-tax-burden-at-lowest-point-in-years/UPI-74091273594893/

Tax burden as share of national income lowest since 1966:
http://innovationandgrowth.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/average-u-s-tax-burden-at-40-year-low/
That link has the added advantage of showing a table further down that illustrates how much higher the true tax burden would need to be to pay for the deficit. Looks like around 12% to me.

Another lowest in decades:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2010-05-10-taxes_N.htm


So yeah, circ, I took your advice, and did some research.







You pick 2 taxes and rates that help your otherwise false propaganda. The overall tax burden on the American citizen is higher than at any time in the past except during WWII. It is the highest it's ever been in relation to GNP and as S&P stated it is unsustainable for even the next 10 years let alone continuing onward. BO state tax the rich. At what rate? If you took 100% of the richest 10% in the country it wouldn't pay the debt we owe China. It's illconceived. There used to be a time we helped our fellowman without the Liberals telling us how much we should help them. Now we have 70 government organizations redistributing $700,000,000,000.00 every year and the problem gets worse and the solution is more organizations and more wealth distribution. Quit listening to the politicians who get reelected by continueing to feed this monster and do some research.

[Osteomata]

Sounds like a Gary Johnson voter.
LOL, I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN!!! Although I share most republican views, I am more of a libertarian/independent. Not a big fan of religion and I am pro choice. I am pro legalization of pot, to save money in law enforcement and make lots of tax revenue.:) Be careful when you make assumptions, someone may come back with actual numbers to back up their point...lol.
:bgwb::bgwb:

[Marlin]

I have a tendency to ignore areas in favor battling out the disapgreements becuase frankly, whats the fun telling each how much we agree when you can angrily counter and debate, heh. So let me break character and suggest the things that we are in general agreement about, so as to proceed from some common ground:

1. I think the current model of revenue vs expenditure is unsustainable and will require major structural change to make us solvent. I wish more people were aware of the $40T expenditure for the next ten years, and that even with the GOPs political victory on the debt ceiling, that plan will not in any way make us solvent, it merely delays an inevitable reckoning.

I agree 100%. No one has mentioned the 70Trillion in projected SS deficit, the trillions in FDIC money that is missing.

2. Entitelment reform MUST be part of the solution, and will probably take the form of raising Social Security full payment age, adjusting the cost of living method of calucuation for SS, means testing for Medicare, and reducing block grants to states for Medicaide. I do not, however, see any way of maintaining a reasonable, i.e., lower than most of the rest of the industrialized developed world, social safety net without revenue increases (tax code revision) and defense budget major cuts. I also agree, look what it got Greece and the rest of the EU. Why can't we just leave folks alone and let them make their own finanical decisions. We have no accountability to the individual

If you want grandad to get his SSN check, a check that he invested decades of working towards, and his medical need attended to, something else he invested toward, and wish to avoid a dramatic increase in roving packs of diseased illiterate children (im getting hyperbolic for effect here), then we need to not only restrucgure the core programs, but also to fix the utterly captured by special interest (including both corporate and other) tax code and revenue shortfalls.

Where we disagree:
1. I don't particlarly concern myself with an obsessive race breakdown for the poor, but rather try to maintain some respect and compassion for those that are less fortunate than I am. It serves no purpose, and strikes me as spiteful, to dismiss those that are receiving public assistance, as a whole or even generally, as lazy and weak blood suckers, regardless of the ethnic demographics. So regardless of the facts, you are going to ignore them and live life as ignorance is bliss? The issue has nothing to do with color, but 100% to do with culutre. You can give them all the money and special programs you want, but until you address their personal culture, which as a society we so enthusiastically embrace, it will keep happening. I have ants in my garage, they were getting into my dog's food. I took away the dog food, the ants went away.
I try to remember that a large part of the justification for public assistance, particularly those "cradle" programs that so irk you, is that the are intended for the children of the poor, and are intended to serve as an investment. For instance, providing early education intervention, community child rearing classes and infant health check ups tends to reduce later health and development issues which end up costing the state and community even more, much more, down the line. Now maybe you are skeptical of the utility of these programs and believe the benefits are exagerrated. OK! Skepticism is good! But the advocates of these programs are pretty mainstream and not just a bunch Trotskyites in Che Guevara shirts. These programs are rather small potatoes in the whole entitlment program debate, they pale in comparison to the need to revise Medicare, Medicaide, and SS. Now

2. Military compensation: I don't trust your numbers,I included all my pay, base, bah, bas, SDAP, 700 a month for insurance policy for family of 4. I did not include my once a year 425 for uniforms, got me there. and I think you have drastically moved the goal posts. You started with "paid way under minimum wage" If you were to consider that by law, all those hours beyond 40/week are overtime,I have a million dollar check owed to me! :)and have chaged it to "my specific situation, during a specified window of my career does not equal what I would make as a civilian." These are radically different questions, the first is indefensible, the latter is possibly true but not representative for the majority of service members.Which is why I said that it is based on my scenario and my job. Technical jobs in the miltary are way underpaid. I am also senior enlisted, lets pull these same numbers for a 21 year old nuke that is only an E4. He makes not even half of what I make. I served for two decades as well and continue to work on base, and I am all too familiar with the cherry picking of data that goes on to justify how poorly paid service members think they are. Even if I accept your situation at face value, I absolutely do not think it representative, you leave our a number of critical factors, you ignore civilian equivalent requirements, fail to include full compensation, do not include intangible benefits of which there are many, and seem to be all in favor of market determinations accept where it comes to the voluntary service. What about including the wide spread Navy transitional rotations between ship and shore duty? You know as well as I do that shore duty entails WAY less hours, almost no duty section rotation, and no deployments, etc etc. For my sepcific rate, our biggest shore duty is on a submarine working 12 hour day rotating shiftwork for 3 years. Actually more work for less pay, since they take sea pay away. Why not mention the plethora of bonuses and tax advantages?Only people that still get bonuses in the Navy is limited to a handfull of rates. Basically nukes, Cryptos, seals/eod and a few others. Granted, not everyone of these is applicable to all service members at all times, but a heck of a lot of them are very widespread, and apply to you.
Base Pay
Variable Houseing Allowance (untaxed)
Uniform allowance (untaxed)
Basic Allowance for Subsistance (untaxed, not provided while at see/in the field)
Family Seperation Pay
Hazardous duty Pay
Hostile Fire Pay
Tax exemption for most pay while deployed in our major conflict zones
Health/Dental
Health/Dental for family
G.I. eduction bill
Reenlistment bonus
Nuke pay
Flight pay
SGLI
TSP programMy federal civillian brothers get matched TSP contributions. Military does not give us anything, its just an easy to use ROth, not sure how this is a benny? Considering an IRS agent or FBI can get his contribution matched, I consider mine a detriment
20 retirement planNot for long. Remember my numbers(which are not far fetched in any way, by the time a 20yr career is over, you have worked 30-40 years of a regular job
Advanced education opportunities.Not sure what this means?
The hearfelt thanks and appreciation of complete strangers.True, it always awkward when someone says "thanks for your service" I never know how to react to that. On a callous fiscal note, their thanks and 75 cents will get you a cold Coke.

There are others, and a whole slew of difficult to monetorize ones. They all have a legit reason (accept those damn pilots sucking down aviator pay while in non-flying status, those guys suck, heh.). I am not arguing they should not exist, but they need to be included in the calculations. Thats fine, double my compensated salary to 140k, I am still way behind the civilian equivalent for my job

3. This is a minor point towards a larger issue: Cell phones are completely ubiquitous, and nearly required to compete for a job. They cost little more than a land line and are far more utilitarian. If you are honestly gonna get wrapped around the axle on whether a guy on public assistance has a mobile, then we are unlikely to find common ground.
You know what I mean, I notice you left out smoking/drinking/drugs. At 50 bucks a carton, or 20 bucks a bottle and so on. Incredibly expensive. I was just using those as non-neccessities that have somehow become entitlements, like cable or high speed internet.

Yikes, alot of those pays I do not get as sailor. I have in the past received family sep allowance, 200 a month I think, so lets make my income 62K, but then I lose 350 for BAS, so I am still behind. All people, civilian or otherwise get tax free in warzones, so not a military benny, hell, a contractor truck driver makes 150k a year to do the same job the E3 next to him does for 30K.
GI bill, I had to pay for that. Not a free benny. I do get TA paid by my command. They have to, for awhile, the navy made it a requirement to have an associates to make E7, a bachelors for E8 and so on. It was rescended two years ago based on our optempo and inability to attend college while in the sandbox or underwater.

Long story short, there is some scamming in the milatary, as I already said. We also do far and away more than our civilian brothers. Ask a civillian x-ray tech to clean the head, you'll get a blank stare. Call up a secretary at 3am and tell them they need to come in and help with paperwork, "What?! Thats double time!!" Ask your local Pepboys mechanic to stay overnight every couple of days to work on cars, all at salary pay. Not gonna hppen. OSHA and labor laws prevent that stuff. None of those things apply to service members. And yes, we are all volunteers, no union, and we are DAMN good at our jobs.

[Marlin]

Sounds like a Gary Johnson voter.

Huh, never heard of em. I just took a few minutes to look, but from a snapshot, sounds about right for me. Let people fend for themselves, give them their money back. Let me make my own mistakes, and most definitely let me suffer the conseqeunces for those mistakes.

[vt_maverick]

IMHO you guys are wasting your breath arguing over whether military pay is inflated. The real fluff in the department budget is in white papers and weapons / systems development programs. Besides Osteo, aren't you trying to make the point that the military is just flat out too big? If so it seems arguing over what our guys make vs. civilians vs. private citizens is a waste of time, since the answer is just to deep-six a large percentage of our mission / equipment / personnel. If you do want to argue over compensation, a better comparison might be what our military make compared to their equivalents in the UK and other economically "healthy" countries.

On a general note, I'm going to be a father for the second time this Saturday if everything goes to plan. :) But what a bummer of a time to have a kid. :(

[Ebenezr]

Ding round 3 is over and appears to be tied as the Judges do not appear to be impressed with the legalization of Marijuana - a foolish stance by Marlin in the red trunks neither are they impressed with Osteomata calling out that our pilots are "sucking down aviator pay':bomb::LineWave::clap:

[Marlin]

Ding round 3 is over and appears to be tied as the Judges do not appear to be impressed with the legalization of Marijuana - a foolish stance by Marlin in the red trunks neither are they impressed with Osteomata calling out that our pilots are "sucking down aviator pay':bomb::LineWave::clap:

LMAO, why can't pot be legal. Alcohol is a thousand times worse than pot. How many billions do we spend in the "drug war" and incarceration when we have real man made drugs that actually can kill you or cause you to kill others floating around? Its ok for pharmacorp to push opiates and benzos on everyone form their man made labs, but a natural substance that requires no processing? Come on, at some point, you have to admit enough is enough. Granted, I say this knowing that I have smoked pot one time, when I was a junior in highschool. So perhaps I am basing it on my observations of my little brother who smoked up from 8th grade through highschool, now he has a masters and is a social worker...go figure.

[Ebenezr]

LMAO, why can't pot be legal. Alcohol is a thousand times worse than pot. How many billions do we spend in the "drug war" and incarceration when we have real man made drugs that actually can kill you or cause you to kill others floating around? Its ok for pharmacorp to push opiates and benzos on everyone form their man made labs, but a natural substance that requires no processing? Come on, at some point, you have to admit enough is enough. Granted, I say this knowing that I have smoked pot one time, when I was a junior in highschool. So perhaps I am basing it on my observations of my little brother who smoked up from 8th grade through highschool, now he has a masters and is a social worker...go figure.

And I bet you didn't inhale.....Ha ha ha ha. :p

[vt_maverick]

So perhaps I am basing it on my observations of my little brother who smoked up from 8th grade through highschool, now he has a masters and is a social worker...go figure.

That's funny, my wife has a friend who followed that exact same progression! :eek: :laughy:

[Marlin]

And I bet you didn't inhale.....Ha ha ha ha. :p

I did, but didn't do much for me. I only drank a handful of times in highschool as well. I didn't have time, APcalc, AP physics II and so on. I also worked full time to pay insurance and payment on my sweet *** 1988 Ford Probe, which I totaled and replaced with a brand new 1997 Honda Civic. I paid my own cell, payment and insurance. That means I worked every shift I could get at the theater. No time for drugs and alcohol for this guy. My parents taught me work ethic and the idea that if you want something, yo uhav eto work for it. I had paper routes, mowed lawns, shovelled snow, bailed hay, you name it.

[circmand]

Marlin,
That was pretty funny! I think if we legalized marijuana and taxed it like cigarettes we could eliminate the bnational debt!

Now that the libereals have outlawed smoking everywhere noone will buy pot because there is no place to smoke it. And what happens if we do. Everyone will have the munchies just around the time Michelle Obama browbeats her hubby into outlawing junk food. I'm sorry but rice cakes and green tea dont cure the munchies

[Osteomata]

But I'm not arguing that military pay is inflated, I am arguing that since we have an all volunteer force, that it is about right, and those who comlain about being underpaid oftern disort their actual compensation. But as to your larger point: yes agreed.


IMHO you guys are wasting your breath arguing over whether military pay is inflated. The real fluff in the department budget is in white papers and weapons / systems development programs. Besides Osteo, aren't you trying to make the point that the military is just flat out too big? If so it seems arguing over what our guys make vs. civilians vs. private citizens is a waste of time, since the answer is just to deep-six a large percentage of our mission / equipment / personnel. If you do want to argue over compensation, a better comparison might be what our military make compared to their equivalents in the UK and other economically "healthy" countries.

On a general note, I'm going to be a father for the second time this Saturday if everything goes to plan. :) But what a bummer of a time to have a kid. :(

[circmand]

I'm always a little suspicous of someone who tells me to "do some research" while providing no references, links, or numbers that weren't pulled out of their butt, heh. So:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/tax_burden_country_ranks_2009.html
Demonstarting USA is ranked 48 out of 65 assessed countries in overall tax burden (not limited to just income tax!) Nearly all other OECD, especially the first worlders, have a greater tax burden, and few of them are attempting to, how can I put this neutrally, do what we do with our military.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/the-tax-burden-around-the-developed-world/
Tax revnue as a percentage of GDP

http://www.forbes.com/global/2006/0522/032a.html
Another tax burden assessment, but this one using 2004 data, which is not too far off since Bush II tax cuts came into effect in 2001 and 2003.

So yeah, I think our revenue stream compared to the rest of the developed world is lighter. So how about that tax burden compared to other decades? I have mostly 2010 data, so we shall see how 2011 and the sloooooww recovery impacts them, but for now the numbers are pretty convincing regarding our low tax burden:

US tax burden lowest in 60 years as a percentage of GDP, coming from Bruce Bartlett, Reagan and Bush I economist:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/are-taxes-in-the-u-s-high-or-low/

Again, US tax burden lowest point in 60 years, including National, State, and Local taxes:
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2010/05/11/US-tax-burden-at-lowest-point-in-years/UPI-74091273594893/

Tax burden as share of national income lowest since 1966:
http://innovationandgrowth.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/average-u-s-tax-burden-at-40-year-low/
That link has the added advantage of showing a table further down that illustrates how much higher the true tax burden would need to be to pay for the deficit. Looks like around 12% to me.

Another lowest in decades:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2010-05-10-taxes_N.htm


So yeah, circ, I took your advice, and did some research.

I did error I should have written Government spending not taxes. Because we all know that overspending is just taxes that need to be collected to pay the debt.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_20th_century_chart.html

[Marlin]

I think this boils down to some simple concepts. We have more government programs and government oversight than ever before. Our solution to fix the problems is to add more government programs and more oversight. We have more taxes than anywhere in the world. As the original post insinuates, we have a tax on everything. If there isn't a bonafide tax, there is a fee instead.
Get rid of all the stupid programs. Let people make their own bed. Life was never designed to be fair. If you don't like where you are, do something about it. If we are saying that its the children of the poor that are the issue, thats an easy fix, stop giving the poor incentive to have kids. Instead offer them money to not have kids, it would save a fortune.

When I used to play paintball, I know for a fact that I tried much harder when I played in t-shirt and shorts than when I played with pads and pants. It hurt like a SOB to get hit with just a tshirt on. I paid a lot more attention to my hiding spots and thought out what I was going to do next. When I was in pads, it was "he who lays down the most paint wins" balls to the wall firefight. No strategy, no worries. There were no repercussions when I wore pads, if I got hit, I just had to sit out for a few mintues until the next round began. At this point with all the social "safety nets", we have removed any repercussions of failure to plan. Do we need food stamps and welfare, sure, but it should be for 12 weeks or some finite period of time. In order to receiv benefits, you have a mando drug test, while you are receiving benefits, you go to work. Roadside cleanup in the AM, job search in the PM. Mow public lawns and the like. There is always something you can do. After your 12 weeks, you hit the road.
My father owns a factory in Ohio. He actually has a few employees that he pays minimum wage to not come to work. In a factory, when one guy is 20 minutes late, its like all 40 of them are late 20 minutes. Ohio is a right to work state, meaning he can't fire them for being late. They have all kinds of rules before you can fire an employee. They can be late up to 20 minutes with no excuse and no repercussions. If he fires them, he has to pay their unemployment insurance, which costs more than minimum wage. He is screwed.
Those minumum wage deadbeats that he is paying are probably collecting foodstamps as well. I have to wonder how many scams like that are played out across the country?

[Osteomata]

I only want to address two points, because the military compensation issue is a rabbit whole upon which we will never agree. So, two points:


So regardless of the facts, you are going to ignore them and live life as ignorance is bliss? The issue has nothing to do with color, but 100% to do with culutre. You can give them all the money and special programs you want, but until you address their personal culture, which as a society we so enthusiastically embrace, it will keep happening. I have ants in my garage, they were getting into my dog's food. I took away the dog food, the ants went away.
This is particularly instructive and points to exactly what I am saying about not viewing with total disgust those less fortunate. If your comparison is with animals and bugs, that says a lot about your entering attitude with regard to the poor. My point as to race and ethnic breakdown is that the problems and challenges of the bottom income brackets, particularly the poverty stricken, transcend those particular categories, and worrying excessively about what percentage happen to be latino is less then helpful. Grinding poverty may indeed by accerabted by culture failures and norms, but those same failure are present in Appalachia as well as Harlem. If I roll my eyes at your primary issue, which seems to be pointing out the ethnic breakdowns, its not "living in ignorant bliss" so much as believing that the racial breakdown numbers aren't particularly instructive.


[COLOR="red"]You know what I mean, I notice you left out smoking/drinking/drugs. At 50 bucks a carton, or 20 bucks a bottle and so on. Incredibly expensive. I was just using those as non-neccessities that have somehow become entitlements, like cable or high speed internet.


I left those out because I have no idea what percentage smoke, drink, or use drugs. I was unwilling to make gross generalizations. I am betting that they don't spend $20 a bottle though.

[RickOKC]

On a general note, I'm going to be a father for the second time this Saturday if everything goes to plan. :)
Hey, early CONGRATULATIONS!!!

[Marlin]

I only want to address two points, because the military compensation issue is a rabbit whole upon which we will never agree. So, two points:


This is particularly instructive and points to exactly what I am saying about not viewing with total disgust those less fortunate. If your comparison is with animals and bugs, that says a lot about your entering attitude with regard to the poor. My point as to race and ethnic breakdown is that the problems and challenges of the bottom income brackets, particularly the poverty stricken, transcend those particular categories, and worrying excessively about what percentage happen to be latino is less then helpful. Grinding poverty may indeed by accerabted by culture failures and norms, but those same failure are present in Appalachia as well as Harlem. If I roll my eyes at your primary issue, which seems to be pointing out the ethnic breakdowns, its not "living in ignorant bliss" so much as believing that the racial breakdown numbers aren't particularly instructive.



I left those out because I have no idea what percentage smoke, drink, or use drugs. I was unwilling to make gross generalizations. I am betting that they don't spend $20 a bottle though.

I did use the bugs and animals concept on purpose. The driving dynamic behind the process is the same. Poeple and animals are very much the same at a base level, especially when it comes to survival. If you offer people something, such as foodstamps and welfare and so on, in exchange for doing nothing, then that is what they will do. The ants found a way to get free food and expend a minimal amount of effort. I took away the easy to get free food, the ants had to go find their food elsewhere. Its not like the majority were going from 6 figures to 15k in welfare. Those folks will work their *** off to gain their previous life style back and this is a temporary setback. The generational poor have always been poor and are therefore ok with always being poor. To say its not driven by ethnic triggers is ignoring a completely related cause for the sake of PC is ridiculous, the proof is in the pudding so to speak. Doing the same thing and expecting different results is insanity. We have to change their culture, wait the generation or two for the old to die off, and voila, everyone is happy! Ignoring the cultural shortcomings is going to result in the same poverty statistics for generations to come.

As for the 20 bucks a bottle, you're probably right, but if they are buying the Mccormicks at 4 bucks a bottle, they are probably not just drinking on Friday night and are still spending some bucks per week.

As for smokes, this is from Minnesota, so take it as just that:

"Seifert said the welfare recipients who use tobacco -- up to 40 percent of them, at a cost of at least $1,200 a year for a pack-a-day smoker -- could be offered cessation programs through the private Minnesota Partnership for Action Against Tobacco."

Here is a recent one from Arkansas:
"According to ATR, “55 percent of smokers are 'working poor,' and one in four smokers lives below the poverty line.” Additionally, on average, smokers, whose median income is a little more than $36,000, make about 30 percent less than non-smokers.”"

Smoking seems to be more prevalent in the poor communities. Be it education or social culture, I have no idea. The can read the warnings on the pack just as well as I can. I quit smoking 10 years ago when I did my budget for when I got married. I was spending 50 bucks a month on smokes. I know smokes are way more expensive now, that is a chunk of change. A carton here in SC is 50 bucks. 100-150 bucks a month, thats half the rent in a crappy apartment. That would pay for my groceries if I went bare bones and so on.

[Ebenezr]

:badhorse:

[Ebenezr]

Taxes

By Edgar A. Guest

When they become due I don't like them at all.
Taxes look large be they ever so small
Taxes are debts which I venture to say,
No man or no woman is happy to pay.
I grumble about them, as most of us do.
For it seems that with taxes I never am through.

But when I reflect on the city I love,
With its sewers below and its pavements above,
And its schools and its parks where children may play,
I can see what I get for the money I pay,
And I say to myself: "Little joy would we know
If we kept all our money and spent it alone".

I couldn't build streets and I couldn't fight fire.
Policemen to guard us I never could hire.
A water department I couldn't maintain.
Instead of a city we'd still have a plain.
Then I look at the bill for the taxes they charge,
And I say to myself: "Well, that isn't so large".

I walk through a hospital thronged with the ill
And I find that it shrivels the size of my bill.
As in beauty and splendor my home city grows,
It is easy to see where my tax money goes.
And I say to myself: "If we lived hit and miss
And gave up our taxes, we couldn't do this".

[Osteomata]

I understand your incentive/disinsentive based argument, I just don't think its true because the data does not support it. It sounds good but doesn't actually play out in real life. With a more robust welfare system developing since the later 1930s, we have not seen an increase in the poverty rate, but rather a significant drop from the 1940s-1970, and it has held roughly steady at 14% since then, although the current recession has caused an upward trend. What I think we get from these various programs is a lack of starvation, mass malnutrition, gross illiteracy, and epidemics that your proposed solution would generate. You would get your two generation die off alright, just not in the way you mean.


I did use the bugs and animals concept on purpose. The driving dynamic behind the process is the same. Poeple and animals are very much the same at a base level, especially when it comes to survival. If you offer people something, such as foodstamps and welfare and so on, in exchange for doing nothing, then that is what they will do. The ants found a way to get free food and expend a minimal amount of effort. I took away the easy to get free food, the ants had to go find their food elsewhere. Its not like the majority were going from 6 figures to 15k in welfare. Those folks will work their *** off to gain their previous life style back and this is a temporary setback. The generational poor have always been poor and are therefore ok with always being poor. To say its not driven by ethnic triggers is ignoring a completely related cause for the sake of PC is ridiculous, the proof is in the pudding so to speak. Doing the same thing and expecting different results is insanity. We have to change their culture, wait the generation or two for the old to die off, and voila, everyone is happy! Ignoring the cultural shortcomings is going to result in the same poverty statistics for generations to come.

As for the 20 bucks a bottle, you're probably right, but if they are buying the Mccormicks at 4 bucks a bottle, they are probably not just drinking on Friday night and are still spending some bucks per week.

As for smokes, this is from Minnesota, so take it as just that:

"Seifert said the welfare recipients who use tobacco -- up to 40 percent of them, at a cost of at least $1,200 a year for a pack-a-day smoker -- could be offered cessation programs through the private Minnesota Partnership for Action Against Tobacco."

Here is a recent one from Arkansas:
"According to ATR, ?55 percent of smokers are 'working poor,' and one in four smokers lives below the poverty line.? Additionally, on average, smokers, whose median income is a little more than $36,000, make about 30 percent less than non-smokers.?"

Smoking seems to be more prevalent in the poor communities. Be it education or social culture, I have no idea. The can read the warnings on the pack just as well as I can. I quit smoking 10 years ago when I did my budget for when I got married. I was spending 50 bucks a month on smokes. I know smokes are way more expensive now, that is a chunk of change. A carton here in SC is 50 bucks. 100-150 bucks a month, thats half the rent in a crappy apartment. That would pay for my groceries if I went bare bones and so on.

[Ebenezr]

INSTALLING COMMON SENSE IN WASHINGTON.....
????????????????????????????? 44% DONE.
Install delayed....please wait.
Installation failed. Please try again.
404 error: COMMON SENSE IN WASHINGTON not found

[Marlin]

INSTALLING COMMON SENSE IN WASHINGTON.....
????????????????????????????? 44% DONE.
Install delayed....please wait.
Installation failed. Please try again.
404 error: COMMON SENSE IN WASHINGTON not found

:razo2:

Thats because it wasn't an apple processor.

[Marlin]

I understand your incentive/disinsentive based argument, I just don't think its true because the data does not support it. It sounds good but doesn't actually play out in real life. With a more robust welfare system developing since the later 1930s, we have not seen an increase in the poverty rate, but rather a significant drop from the 1940s-1970, and it has held roughly steady at 14% since then, although the current recession has caused an upward trend. What I think we get from these various programs is a lack of starvation, mass malnutrition, gross illiteracy, and epidemics that your proposed solution would generate. You would get your two generation die off alright, just not in the way you mean.

So we are stuck. We know the current system doesn't work, as evident by our current situation and the fact they are breeding their way to the top via numbers. My way is probably too callous and may result in many deaths.

So, what do we do now? I thought my short term assistance was fair. No lifers allowed. When I went out to Moab, I stayed a night in Salt Lake with a buddy's parents. His family were of course Mormon. They have some interesting practices. His dad was a roofer, fell off a roof and was injured. Rather than collect workman's comp and whatnot, his church pays his bills and helps him out. In exchange, he works out the church doing what he can. He does paperwork, cleans, helps with their lineage research and so on.
Once he was back on his feet, he began paying back that debt via a direct tithe. Makes sense to me.
Why can't our system work like that? Oh wait, thats because there is no exchange for their assistance. They do absolutely nothing for it!!!! NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING. I don't get it. If it doesn't cost anything, then it has no value to them. Why don't they have to do menial labor?! How about we chase illegals off and use prisoners and aid receivers? Bingo, farms get low wage workers, its not "unfair" because they receive a salary. They would hate their job, and therefore do anything they could to get out of it!

I am sure there are all kinds of pitfalls and its a violation of the civil rights to receive aid in exchange for work. The drug test would be an invasion of their privacy and all. (No one makes you go on welfare, I do drug tests all the time, my friends that work at Dupont do them monthly)

Let the US default, let the revolution begin, there will be some hard times for sure, but in the end it will be better for the nation. :)

[Ldub]

But I'd like to know why...

I have to provide a clean urine sample to get most any well paying job.

Yet those who receive the benefits of my labors, through socialist govt programs, have to provide nothing more than a signature & a pulse...:_confused

Someone PLEASE splain it to me...:upsetgray:upsetgray

[Osteomata]

Why are we stuck? I don't think the current system is particularly broken. In exchange for moderate assistance, we preclude a significant chunk of our society from ending up in prisons (expensive), diseased (dangerous to the herd) or further destabilizing our country do to rampant illiterate unhealthy starving mobs. it also provides quite a number of people the opportunity to get back in teh game rather than end up in an every spiraling cycle towards grinding poverty. The flaws in our social safety net system, which by industrialized world standards is pretty conservative, is not these limited cost provisions that worry you so, but rather the structural aspects of the three big ones (Medicare, Medicaid, SS). Food programs and dozens of other lower scale programs make us all a bit safer and our nation more stable.

And as a minor recommendation for your future discussions with people more sensitive than me: it just sounds a little odd to refer to them as "breeding" their way to the top." Its that whole animal thing again. Take it or leave it. Besides, if minority representation in our country has been growing steadily, and yet the poverty threshold has held steady, does this not refute your assertion that these breeding minorities are endangering our future?

As for just hoping that churches and what not will take over that responsibility: nothing is stopping them now! Nothing Nothing Nothing, as you would say. Government programs do not exclude the participation of churches and the religious in charity work outside of a few very narrow and socially contentious areas like adoption agencies. What we know from the historical record is that exclusive church/philanthropic based charity is grossly insufficient and unevenly applied, to say the least. Besides, for every anecdote you can provide about the white guy in Moab, do you think I can't come up with an equally compelling story of a black guy in Baltimore or Hispanic guy in Miami that got himself back on his feet, or was able to transition out of poverty to college, first in his family etc etc due to a gov program? Anecdote anecdote anecdote. Which is not evidence.

Every single program that is in any way broad and semi-comprehensive will have cheaters and various levels of abuse or inefficiency, but the presence of such issues does not mean the program as a whole is wrong or a net negative impact on our country, particularly given the alternatives.

Immigration is a hole nother issue and would only further derail us for sure. But for the drug testing thing: for someone so distrustful of government programs, you seem might quick to render yet another intrusive power to the State. No way that would be abused heh? No way it would steadily spread beyond a few select aid programs, all in the name of "won't someone think of the children" or "terrorism" or the "war on drugs" or whatever, into ever broadening, unevenly applied, deeply abused authority by multiple levels of government.





So we are stuck. We know the current system doesn't work, as evident by our current situation and the fact they are breeding their way to the top via numbers. My way is probably too callous and may result in many deaths.

So, what do we do now? I thought my short term assistance was fair. No lifers allowed. When I went out to Moab, I stayed a night in Salt Lake with a buddy's parents. His family were of course Mormon. They have some interesting practices. His dad was a roofer, fell off a roof and was injured. Rather than collect workman's comp and whatnot, his church pays his bills and helps him out. In exchange, he works out the church doing what he can. He does paperwork, cleans, helps with their lineage research and so on.
Once he was back on his feet, he began paying back that debt via a direct tithe. Makes sense to me.
Why can't our system work like that? Oh wait, thats because there is no exchange for their assistance. They do absolutely nothing for it!!!! NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING. I don't get it. If it doesn't cost anything, then it has no value to them. Why don't they have to do menial labor?! How about we chase illegals off and use prisoners and aid receivers? Bingo, farms get low wage workers, its not "unfair" because they receive a salary. They would hate their job, and therefore do anything they could to get out of it!

I am sure there are all kinds of pitfalls and its a violation of the civil rights to receive aid in exchange for work. The drug test would be an invasion of their privacy and all. (No one makes you go on welfare, I do drug tests all the time, my friends that work at Dupont do them monthly)

Let the US default, let the revolution begin, there will be some hard times for sure, but in the end it will be better for the nation. :)

[Osteomata]

It is a fair question, and I am not particularly hard over on the issue, nor especially well versed in the argument. Three things spring to mind, let me run them up the flag pole:
1. The majority of the high paying jobs you are referring to are in the corporate/private sector. I think it is one thing to enter into voluntary contract with an employer in which they pay you hefty salary in exchange for standards of conduct of all types, and quite another to cede to the State yet another power over personal privacy and actions for an ever widening sector of the populace.
2. Food stamps versus a high paying job? No contest. Lots and lots and lots of people would trade the first in favor of the second.
3. Given that these programs dramatically impact the children of the poor to an even greater degree than the adults, are you not simply stigmatizing poverty rather than merely government assistance?
But I would like to know

I have to provide a clean urine sample to get most any well paying job.

Yet those who receive the benefits of my labors, through socialist govt programs, have to provide nothing more than a signature & a pulse...:_confused

Someone PLEASE splain it to me...:upsetgray:upsetgray

[Osteomata]

I've been thinking this one over some more Ldub, and I guess what surprises is me is the vehemence and apparent anger over the issue of providing a minimum subsistence for those in poverty. Do those not in it think it fun or something? I am being intentionally rhetorical, but still, seriously? Living ****ty lives and counting dimes and being in an unsafe neighborhood and barely able to provide for your kids and you depend on some aid from the state and now some petty authoritarian bureaucrat says you have to pee in a cup every month, for which you now have to get a babysitter and take the bus down town etc etc etc. Are we as a nation really that angry and disdainful of them? But hell why stop there. Why not urine tests for SS, medicare, school lunch programs, work assistance programs and all of them? Heck we can set up a hole new government agency to monitor and enforce it. And as has been pointed out, those dang poor people have the gall to smoke too, so might as well test for nicotine while were at it. Don't give me any of that nonsense about "well cigarettes aren't illegal" because some of you can surely name restrictions on otherwise legal activity that your well paying job puts on you. Soon as I can figure out how to test for alcohol use beyond about a day we need to add that too. I guess I am just trying to say that reasonable people can disagree about the best way to set up and too what extant or scope we should have any number of programs, but there is really no need to be pissed off at the majority of the recipients and their families, it just doesn't become us as a nation.
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/

[Ebenezr]

But I'd like to know why...

I have to provide a clean urine sample to get most any well paying job.

Yet those who receive the benefits of my labors, through socialist govt programs, have to provide nothing more than a signature & a pulse...:_confused

Someone PLEASE splain it to me...:upsetgray:upsetgray

It's real simple Dub, your living in a country of idiots. :yesy:

[Ebenezr]

:razo2:

Thats because it wasn't an apple processor.

I guess my processor must be a democrat then. :bwgy:

[Ldub]

It is a fair question, and I am not particularly hard over on the issue, nor especially well versed in the argument. Three things spring to mind, let me run them up the flag pole:
1. The majority of the high paying jobs you are referring to are in the corporate/private sector. I think it is one thing to enter into voluntary contract with an employer in which they pay you hefty salary in exchange for standards of conduct of all types, and quite another to cede to the State yet another power over personal privacy and actions for an ever widening sector of the populace.
2. Food stamps versus a high paying job? No contest. Lots and lots and lots of people would trade the first in favor of the second.
3. Given that these programs dramatically impact the children of the poor to an even greater degree than the adults, are you not simply stigmatizing poverty rather than merely government assistance?

Emphatically NO!!!...I NEVER said HIGH paying, I said well paying, as in $8-9.00 an hour, yeah, you heard me right. I've had to piss just to do menial labor on the bagging floor of a sunflower seed processing facility, I've had to piss for the privilege of doing carpentry work, from framing to finish, & most disciplines between the foundation & the shingles, I've also had to submit to a test of my precious bodily fluids for the right to work WAY too many 0000-0800 shifts as a security guard...LUCKY F-N me!
All done under the guise of lower insurance rates...:rolleyesg
A couple of those jobs included the option of purchasing medical/dental & vision coverage, my current job has no such option.
You will probably reply that it's my choice to work in these capacities, & due to a few bad choices in my mis-spent yoot, I probably should have gotten a better education after graduating high school...at the time, it wasn't a real option, & i'm OK with that.

In the mean time, organizations such as lutheran socialist services continue to bring "refugees", from third world $h*# holes around the globe, into our community, to place an even larger burden on all aspects of local & federal social betterment programs.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...I live from check 2 check, make just slightly too much to qualify for any type of government assistance, & DREAD having to sell my truck & guns & what not, to cover whatever medical emergency/procedure (priced a colonoscopy lately?, or having a tooth pulled/filled?, or maybe even a splenectomy, or the removal of a gall bladder that's gone on the fritz?) that may well blip the radar after reaching the age of fiddy.

Why yes, there are a few of "them" who are fine upstanding citizens, & I have more than a few friends who qualify as "upstanding them", including friends from Sudan, Usbekistan, Somalia, & Bosnia.
However, there are an equal, if not greater number of "them" who are out most evenings cutting cats off parked vehicles for the recycling $ (I know, industrious, creative, & eco friendly), burglarizing homes, & just being $h*# heads in general...you're damned right there are a lot of home grown, hard working, well armed SOB's out here in the heartland wondering why they've gotta go PP in a cup to support all this crap...:upsetgray.:upsetgray.:upsetgray

Oh, & lest we forget all the children...HELLO...if you're already impoverished, & receiving every conceivable form of govt assistance, the logical thing to do would be:

1 - get the unit, (on either mom OR pop (if you know who that might be)) fixed.(prolly won't co$t much...y'all welcome, that's something I wouldn't mind helping to finance...:yesgray:)

2 - practice some other form of birth control ( I happen to know that this option is available at little or NO cost through various organizations, such as planned parenthood or community health (MUCH cheaper for those of us paying the bills than another mouth to feed, clothe, educate, etc)

OR...

3 - keep popp'n em' out every 10-11 months, thereby insuring a continuous flow of free $ until the last one is "out da house", & the aged "hoo-hoo" won't put bread on the table no more.

To say that you (anyone in disagreement) & i see things differently would be a safe bet, & that's OK by me...you're still one of my VX brethren &/or sistren...:yesgray:

Stigmatizing poverty?...yeah, you got me...:_thinking... I AM poverty, with no freebies.
Why NO...I don't have cable, a cel phon, or food stamps. I use as many coopn's as I can get my hands on to reduce the grocery bill...wonder how many "on the dole" use coopn's...:_confused Got any stats on that?

And this is not to brag, just fact...I do my be$t to give back, by shopping at/donating excess items to thrift stores that benefit childrens organizations (dakota boys & girls ranch (http://dakotaranch.org/thrift))
And LENDING money to friends/co-workers who might not be in as good a $hape as I currently am. My most recent borrower just repaid 3 franklins, that he borrowed before Christmas, so he could get his heat back on.

Hefty salary...:confused: yeh b1tc4es, I'm kick'n it LARGE...:laughing:

Sorry all, rant over...:flower:

[Ldub]

It's real simple Dub, your living in a country of idiots. :yesy:

Yeh...bleeding heart idjutz.

Then: YAY...no child left behind...:dance:

Now: OK, let's lower the bar a bit, & just leave a few behind...:slap:

Amazing how economic reality can change this or that...:yesgray:

NEVER the compensation/benefits of the powers that be, just those who may have been stupid enough to put them there...:_confused

[Ldub]

I've been thinking this one over some more Ldub, and I guess what surprises is me is the vehemence and apparent anger over the issue of providing a minimum subsistence for those in poverty. Do those not in it think it fun or something? I am being intentionally rhetorical, but still, seriously? Living ****ty lives and counting dimes and being in an unsafe neighborhood and barely able to provide for your kids and you depend on some aid from the state and now some petty authoritarian bureaucrat says you have to pee in a cup every month, for which you now have to get a babysitter and take the bus down town etc etc etc. Are we as a nation really that angry and disdainful of them? But hell why stop there. Why not urine tests for SS, medicare, school lunch programs, work assistance programs and all of them? Heck we can set up a hole new government agency to monitor and enforce it. And as has been pointed out, those dang poor people have the gall to smoke too, so might as well test for nicotine while were at it. Don't give me any of that nonsense about "well cigarettes aren't illegal" because some of you can surely name restrictions on otherwise legal activity that your well paying job puts on you. Soon as I can figure out how to test for alcohol use beyond about a day we need to add that too. I guess I am just trying to say that reasonable people can disagree about the best way to set up and too what extant or scope we should have any number of programs, but there is really no need to be pissed off at the majority of the recipients and their families, it just doesn't become us as a nation.
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/

I'm OK with my opinion being "not becoming"

See my last 2 replies for further clarification...:yesgray:

Good luck with that al-key-haul test, hope you make a million...:yesgray:

[Osteomata]

That's quite a lot of pissed offedness for what you have to admit is a pretty understandable word assumption based upon some sort of expectation that I can psychically determine that when you say "well paying" you mean nearly minimum wage. But you sound exactly like the type of person who would dramatically benefit from a modernized and fairer medical insurance system, one that provided coverage for these health tragedies while controlling overall costs to the public, such that our medical costs in the US were not nearly twice that of other OECD countries while providing inferior basic care. It is why I insist on calling certain programs a safety net rather than welfare, because they protect normal citizens against the vagaries and unpredictable tragedies of fate. Immigration seems to be your hobby horse, and it was not my intention to get into that. But how noble it is that you will acknowledge "a few" of them are decent. Do I take it that that means the vast majority are not? And yet statistics suggest that the overwhelming majority are in fact decent people, working to make a life, paying taxes and social security even when they will not be permitted to collect on several big categories of the benefits. Many of our lowest crime rate cities are the ones with the highest Latino immigration rates.

As too birth control issues, I agree! But that is absolutely not a problem exclusive to immigrants, who in fact dramatically reduce birth rates within a generation of arrival. Continued ability to distribute birth control, funding of planned parenthood, and provide something other than the demonstrably worthless abstinence only sex ed are but a few ways to help deal with the staggering costs associated with excessive teen and unwed pregnancies.



Emphatically NO!!!...I NEVER said HIGH paying, I said well paying, as in $8-9.00 an hour, yeah, you heard me right. I've had to piss just to do menial labor on the bagging floor of a sunflower seed processing facility, I've had to piss for the privilege of doing carpentry work, from framing to finish, & most disciplines between the foundation & the shingles, I've also had to submit to a test of my precious bodily fluids for the right to work WAY too many 0000-0800 shifts as a security guard...LUCKY F-N me!
All done under the guise of lower insurance rates...:rolleyesg
A couple of those jobs included the option of purchasing medical/dental & vision coverage, my current job has no such option.
You will probably reply that it's my choice to work in these capacities, & due to a few bad choices in my mis-spent yoot, I probably should have gotten a better education after graduating high school...at the time, it wasn't a real option, & i'm OK with that.

In the mean time, organizations such as lutheran socialist services continue to bring "refugees", from third world $h*# holes around the globe, into our community, to place an even larger burden on all aspects of local & federal social betterment programs.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...I live from check 2 check, make just slightly too much to qualify for any type of government assistance, & DREAD having to sell my truck & guns & what not, to cover whatever medical emergency/procedure (priced a colonoscopy lately?, or having a tooth pulled/filled?, or maybe even a splenectomy, or the removal of a gall bladder that's gone on the fritz?) that may well blip the radar after reaching the age of fiddy.

Why yes, there are a few of "them" who are fine upstanding citizens, & I have more than a few friends who qualify as "upstanding them", including friends from Sudan, Usbekistan, Somalia, & Bosnia.
However, there are an equal, if not greater number of "them" who are out most evenings cutting cats off parked vehicles for the recycling $ (I know, industrious, creative, & eco friendly), burglarizing homes, & just being $h*# heads in general...you're damned right there are a lot of home grown, hard working, well armed SOB's out here in the heartland wondering why they've gotta go PP in a cup to support all this crap...:upsetgray.:upsetgray.:upsetgray

Oh, & lest we forget all the children...HELLO...if you're already impoverished, & receiving every conceivable form of govt assistance, the logical thing to do would be:

1 - get the unit, (on either mom OR pop (if you know who that might be)) fixed.(prolly won't co$t much...y'all welcome, that's something I wouldn't mind helping to finance...:yesgray:)

2 - practice some other form of birth control ( I happen to know that this option is available at little or NO cost through various organizations, such as planned parenthood or community health (MUCH cheaper for those of us paying the bills than another mouth to feed, clothe, educate, etc)

OR...

3 - keep popp'n em' out every 10-11 months, thereby insuring a continuous flow of free $ until the last one is "out da house", & the aged "hoo-hoo" won't put bread on the table no more.

To say that you (anyone in disagreement) & i see things differently would be a safe bet, & that's OK by me...you're still one of my VX brethren &/or sistren...:yesgray:

Stigmatizing poverty?...yeah, you got me...:_thinking

Hefty salary...:confused: yeh b1tc4es, I'm kick'n it LARGE...:laughing:

Sorry all, rant over...:flower:

[Marlin]

As too birth control issues, I agree! But that is absolutely not a problem exclusive to immigrants, who in fact dramatically reduce birth rates within a generation of arrival.

WTF fairy tale country do you live in?! Did you not see in the news the other day that there are more latino toddlers than there are are white toddlers? Yet there are almost a 3 to 1 ratio of white adults to latino adults? That means that latinos are having 3 babies to our 1? http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/pim09st.pdf Blacks are 6 times more likely to be incarcerated and hispanics are 3 times more likely. Do not give me some BS excuse that we treat them unfairly, if that statistic held to whites, we have thousands of violent crimes each day across the nation that cops turn their heads from.
How many mexicans do I see at walmart with 6 little kids running amok in the store? I rarely see a white family with that many kids, hence the fact that we are being bred out of majority.
And yes, I used the term breed and bred. Do not forget that we as humans are animals, candy coating it with some ***** footing word does not change its meaning, crap or ****, its got the same flies buzzing around it. That is a whole nother rant, PC BS. It is not against any law to offend someone, and I don't care if someone is sensitive.

As for Ldub, I don't get it either. Dupont is a factory, 10-12 an hour, yet they piss monthly. Once again, not a high paying job. My dad makes his guys piss in a cup and does random drug tests. That is for 8-10 range as well. His is a matter or of principal, and get this....insurance! Seems to me that sober employees are more dependable and less likely to get hurt than high employees. Kind of like drug addict welfare parents are more likely to stay on welfare. How about this. No one makes them go get welfare. They have a choice. How about they make the sacrifice to do whats best for their kids and give them up(the drugs or the kids, take your pick). There are about to be a plethora of newly wedded same sex couples that would love to adopt! (sorry, couldn't help it, personally I couldn't care less, but we are back to why the church can't take care of the problems. The church no longer matters in our society. Morals are gone. Moms started working outside the home, divorce is considered ok as the norm rather than the exception, people stopped going to church, and so on. Although I am not religious, I get the concept, important in its role to teach morals, which contributes to stable society. Seems that the homos that make the news are flamboyant and downright immoral. Ever seen a gay parade or festival? I had the great pleasure of living in Orlando for gay disney days. Its like a sinful porno in public. What you do in your home is your business, don't take it to the streets under the pretense of civil rights....sorry, way way way off topic.)

You seem to think the best of people Osteo, and that is ok. Naive, but it is undeniably your right. Unfortunately, people aren't inherently good and honorable as you seem to think. We will kill each other for a deal on a tv, shoot each other in the back for a pair of shoes, burn you alive because of religious views, and so on. We are merely intelligent animals. Honor has to be taught to you by your parents or your social environment. You have to be held to that standard. Our social coddling system does not do that, in fact, it does just the opposite, we encourage the use of the programs, make it cool even, when it should be shameful. Not many things that drive people to do well as efficiently as shame. Is it the nicest, nope, but it gets the job done. Kind of like bright orange or pink prison jumpsuits. In this aspect, the ends justify the means. We should discourage people from using these safety nets, after all they are there for an emergency.

Ldub-I use coupons religiously, find the BOGO or clearance items and double up. I would estimate I save 150-200 a month in coupons. I spend hours sorting and perusing sale ads, but its worth it. That is a good question, can't say I have ever seen someone using their food stamp card submit coupons to the cashier. But why would they, it cost them nothing, its not even their money!!

[Osteomata]

I'll respond tomorrow Marlin, please look for it. I want to cool down from your homos remarks before posting.

[Marlin]

I'll respond tomorrow Marlin, please look for it. I want to cool down from your homos remarks before posting.

Homos remark? Because I shortened homosexual into homo? Well, I better not say VX anymore, its vehicross from now on. :) Just ribbing you now.
"A rose by any other name doth smell as sweet" or something like that. Call it whatever term you want, it all means the same thing. PC BS to the rescue!!!!!

[VXR]

But I'd like to know why...

I have to provide a clean urine sample to get most any well paying job.

Yet those who receive the benefits of my labors, through socialist govt programs, have to provide nothing more than a signature & a pulse...:_confused

Someone PLEASE splain it to me...:upsetgray:upsetgray

:confused:


































Just kidding X2:yesb:

[Osteomata]

right, because gross generalizations about the entire gay community based upon you seeing a gay parade is not at all f-ing homophobic. but please, pretend it was just an abbreviation. Perhaps you can include an animal metaphor about "those people."

[VXR]

right, because gross generalizations about the entire gay community based upon you seeing a gay parade is not at all f-ing homophobic. but please, pretend it was just an abbreviation. Perhaps you can include an animal metaphor about "those people."

I thought you said you would respond tomorrow:rollb:

[Osteomata]

WTF fairy tale country do you live in?! Did you not see in the news the other day that there are more latino toddlers than there are are white toddlers? Yet there are almost a 3 to 1 ratio of white adults to latino adults? That means that latinos are having 3 babies to our 1? 80% of inmates are either black or latino? Do not give me some BS excuse that we treat them unfairly, if that statistic held to whites, we have thousands of violent crimes each day across the nation that cops turn their heads from.
How many mexicans do I see at walmart with 6 little kids running amok in the store? I rarely see a white family with that many kids, hence the fact that we are being bred out of majority.
And yes, I used the term breed and bred. Do not forget that we as humans are animals, candy coating it with some ***** footing word does not change its meaning, crap or ****, its got the same flies buzzing around it. That is a whole nother rant, PC BS. It is not against any law to offend someone, and I don't care if someone is sensitive.

Marlin,
I am living in the country where someone's random invocation of "that news the other day" is insufficient to convince me of their sweeping generalizations, as is their anecdotal stories about what they saw at Walmart. I strongly suspect confirmation bias, in that you are remembering those events which reinforce your preexisting opinions far better than the overall things you see and experience. Hey, did you see any of those shows on TV with those moms that have all those feaking babies? 19 kids and counting? Kate + 8? You know, white chicks? Ever hear of the Quiverfull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull)movement? Wanna guess the predominate race of all those? Do I get to make broad assumptions based on that, or should I use actual, you know, facts and statistics? So I eagerly await any info you have to support your fear of a slightly tanner future, other than all those Mexicans kids you saw in the parking lot as your blood began to boil at the injustice of it all. As to birth rates: I could not care less about the birth rate by ethnicity, but do care about the birth rate by socioeconomic class, a much more "important for our future" statistic. I want to repeat that: I do not care if the future of our country entails an ethnic mix that is slighlty less white than currently, and to worry excessivly about this is to be but a few steps removed from "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White Children." My comment which appears to have set you off, and I am not even sure you read it, is that immigrant birth rates decrease after a generation, and rapidly approach the US norms associated with economic class.

While "PC" some years ago was a bit out of control, today it seems to be primarily the term a person cries in order to inoculate themselves against any charge of generalization, unfair assumptions, bigotry and other unseemly behavior. "You don't get to say I'm being unfair when I say X because I invoked the magic cry of PC, so I am the actual victim here!" Do you know what is not excessive "PC"? Disagreeing with you. It is a pretty big distinction, and you seem eager to confuse actually PC censorship, in which someone seeks to prevent you from expressing your opinions or dismiss you from the discussion, with someone that expresses a criticism and contrary position while alledging unfair logic, fact distortion, or just general impoliteness. Your animal metaphores and breeding comments have, so far, been restricted only to ethnic minorities. I merely pointed out that if you want to convince others, and come across in certain circles as less rude, that you would benefit from different words, words that are usually used for humans, like "birthrate". Now if you want to go on a cussword filled rant about me pointing it out, knock yourself out, but it doesn't make you any more convincing.


The church no longer matters in our society. Morals are gone. Moms started working outside the home, divorce is considered ok as the norm rather than the exception, people stopped going to church, and so on. Although I am not religious, I get the concept, important in its role to teach morals, which contributes to stable society. Seems that the homos that make the news are flamboyant and downright immoral. Ever seen a gay parade or festival? I had the great pleasure of living in Orlando for gay disney days. Its like a sinful porno in public. What you do in your home is your business, don't take it to the streets under the pretense of civil rights....sorry, way way way off topic.)

"Morals are gone" and yet the crime rate is the lowest it has been in decades, teen pregnancy is on the decline, and standards of living have risen across the country. If that is "morals are gone" then give me even less of them. Divorce is on the decline of late, but admittedly is in the 40+% range overall, but the primary reason for the post war rise in divorce rate, and no fault divorce laws, is the century long redefinition of marriage such that women were not absorbed into the property of their husbands, and have the option of pursuing a different life. You know, free choice and all. As for the homos and those terrible terrible gay parades: Grew up in Orlando, live in Miami Beach, so safe to say I have seen a bit. Question for you: ever seen television? A college Spring Break? Beach front wet tshirt contest? Jersey Shore? A thousand million other overt displays of heterosexuality in our modern life? Yeah, hard for me to get excited about those queers going excessive at an annual parade. But by all my means, lets push them back behind closed doors, you know, for the children.

[VXR]

standards of living have risen across the country

they have?


Divorce is on the decline of late

only because people can not afford it anymore...

[ZEUS]

Hey Dubaroo, sorry man, the battery in my in-every-way-a-luxury cell phone hath expired... I shall be giving you a ring ring in the morrow. :yesy:

[Triathlete]

Hey Dubaroo, sorry man, the battery in my in-every-way-a-luxury cell phone hath expired... I shall be giving you a ring ring in the morrow. :yesy:

Way to rub in your "wealthness" Zeus!:bwgy::laughing::laughing:

[Ldub]

That's quite a lot of pissed offedness for what you have to admit is a pretty understandable word assumption based upon some sort of expectation that I can psychically determine that when you say "well paying" you mean nearly minimum wage. But you sound exactly like the type of person who would dramatically benefit from a modernized and fairer medical insurance system, one that provided coverage for these health tragedies while controlling overall costs to the public, such that our medical costs in the US were not nearly twice that of other OECD countries while providing inferior basic care. ..
....
No thanks, I know the swiftness & quality of socialized medical care in other countries, through the actual experiences of relatives/friends who either live there, or have recently visited...both N & S.
I have a cuz in CANADA, & a step bro in MEXICO, & neither of them has ever lied to me in the past 4-50 yrs of our acquaintance.

I'd like the "free 4 life" coverage that those who were elected by their "subserviant underlings" enjoy please...
..
It is why I insist on calling certain programs a safety net rather than welfare

tay-tow-tot-tow...call it what you will...:rolleyesg

Immigration seems to be your hobby horse, and it was not my intention to get into that. But how noble it is that you will acknowledge "a few" of them are decent. Do I take it that that means the vast majority are not? And yet statistics suggest that the overwhelming majority are in fact decent people, working to make a life, paying taxes and social security even when they will not be permitted to collect on several big categories of the benefits. Many of our lowest crime rate cities are the ones with the highest Latino immigration rates.

Well, to put a point on this fact first...I purposely didn't mention any race of Latino persuasion, knowing that would be later carted out as the "example" of what I said...NOPE...BS denied!

Next point, in no particular order..."a few" is who I know, the "overwhelming majority" is who I see on the news & in the "crime report" of the daily paper...yeah, I know...the police blotter is being spun by Glenn Beck...:laughing:



As too birth control issues, I agree! But that is absolutely not a problem exclusive to immigrants, who in fact dramatically reduce birth rates within a generation of arrival. Continued ability to distribute birth control, funding of planned parenthood, and provide something other than the demonstrably worthless abstinence only sex ed are but a few ways to help deal with the staggering costs associated with excessive teen and unwed pregnancies.

Well of COURSE
... going from 12 spawn, needed to keep the family stump bog afloat in the old (non industrialized) (:smilewink see, I'm work'n witcha here, I didn't say 3rd world $k1# hole...:flower:) country, to 6 spawn is a 50 % reduction....O happy Day!!!







As for Ldub, I don't get it either. Seems to me that sober employees are more dependable and less likely to get hurt than high employees.

Couldn't agree more...:yes:
HOWEVER
...since when did dear ol' dads insurance co$t preclude my constituional right to " life, liberty & the persuit of happiness?...or my "supposed" presumption of innocence until proven guilty?
Piss'n me on the presumption of possible guilt is....:confused:
VERY heavy handed for someone that calls him or herself an american. JMO.
What I do with my time away from work is MY business, as long as it has no effect on my attendance, or ability to perform the tasks that have been assigned to me, there should be no right to search my piss for "possible" guilt. What right are YOU willing to give up for the betterment of dads business?

If I'm caught doing something illegal by the LAW, then I deserve to be punished & scrutinized, but to be searched under the presumption of guilt?...seriously?

"The economy was to be subordinate to the goals of the political leadership of the state"...one of the beliefs of nazism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism)...:(

Figure out which direction you wanna see this country go...:luck:

BTW...tell pop to start his shifts "artificially" 25 min earlier...then everyone will be on time for work...:yesgray:


Kind of like bright orange or pink prison jumpsuits. In this aspect, the ends justify the means.

HUGE fan of Sheriff Joe, & HERE'S WHY...

SHERIFF JOE IS AT IT AGAIN!
You all remember Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Arizona, who painted the jail cells pink and made the inmates wear pink prison garb. Well.........
SHERIFF JOE IS AT IT AGAIN!




Oh, there's MUCH more to know about Sheriff Joe!

Maricopa County was spending approx. $18 million dollars a year on stray animals, like cats and dogs. Sheriff Joe offered to take the department over, and the County Supervisors said okay.

The animal shelters are now all staffed and operated by prisoners. They feed and care for the strays. Every animal in his care is taken out and walked twice daily. He now has prisoners who are experts in animal nutrition and behavior. They give great classes for anyone who'd like to adopt an animal. He has literally taken stray dogs off the street, given them to the care of prisoners, and had them place in dog shows.

The best part? His budget for the entire department is now under $3 million. Teresa and I adopted a Weimaraner from a Maricopa County shelter two years ago. He was neutered, and current on all shots, in great health, and even had a microchip inserted the day we got him. Cost us $78.

The prisoners get the benefit of about $0.28 an hour for working, but most would work for free, just to be out of their cells for the day. Most of his budget is for utilities, building maintenance, etc. He pays the prisoners out of the fees collected for adopted animals.

I have long wondered when the rest of the country would take a look at the way he runs the jail system, and copy some of his ideas. He has a huge farm, donated to the county years ago, where inmates can work, and they grow most of their own fresh vegetables and food, doing all the work and harvesting by hand.

He has a pretty good sized hog farm, which provides meat, and fertilizer. It fertilizes the Christmas tree nursery, where prisoners work, and you can buy a living Christmas tree for $6 - $8 for the Holidays, and plant it later.. We have six trees in our yard from the Prison.

Yup, he was re-elected last year with 83% of the vote. Now he's in trouble with the ACLU again. He painted all his buses and vehicles with a mural, that has a special hotline phone number painted on it, where you can call and report suspected illegal aliens. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement wasn't doing enough in his eyes, so he had 40 deputies trained specifically for enforcing immigration laws, started up his hotline, and bought 4 new buses just for hauling folks back to the border. He's kind of a 'Git-R Dun' kind of Sheriff.

TO THOSE OF YOU NOT FAMILIAR WITH JOE ARPAIO

HE IS THE MARICOPA ARIZONA COUNTY SHERIFF

AND HE KEEPS GETTING ELECTED OVER AND OVER
THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY:

Sheriff Joe Arpaio (in Arizona ) created the 'Tent City Jail':

He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates for them.

He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails. Took away their weights. Cut off all but 'G' rated movies.

He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free work on county and city projects.

Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn't get sued for discrimination.

He took away cable TV until he found out there was a Federal Court Order that required cable TV for jails so he hooked up the cable TV again; only let in the Disney Channel and the Weather Channel.

When asked why the Weather Channel he replied, 'So they will know how hot it's gonna be while they are working on my Chain Gangs.'

He cut off coffee since it has zero nutritional value.

When the inmates complained, he told them 'This isn't the Ritz/Carlton......if you don't like it, don't come back!'


More On The Arizona Sheriff:

With temperatures being even hotter than usual in Phoenix (116 degrees just set a new record), the Associated Press reports:
About 2,000 inmates living in a barbed-wire-surrounded tent encampment at the Maricopa County Jail have been given permission to strip down to their government-issued pink boxer shorts.

On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were either curled up on their bunk beds or chatted in the tents, which reached 138 degrees inside the week before.

Many were also swathed in wet, pink towels as sweat collected on their chests and dripped down to their PINK SOCKS.

'It feels like we are in a furnace', said James Zanzot, an inmate who has lived in the TENTS for 1 year. 'It's Inhumane.'

Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff who created the tent city and long ago started making his prisoners wear pink and eat bologna sandwiches, is not one bit sympathetic. He said Wednesday that he told all of the inmates: 'It's 120 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents too, and they have to wear full battle gear, but they didn't commit any crimes, so shut your mouths!'

Way to go, Sheriff!

Maybe if all prisons were like this one there would be a lot less crime and/or repeat offenders. Criminals should be punished for their crimes - not live in luxury until it's time for their parole, only to go out and commit another crime so they can get back in to live on taxpayers money and enjoy things taxpayers can't afford to have for themselves.

IMO...Sheriff Joe 4 PREZ in 2012!...:yes:



:confused:


































Just kidding X2:yesb:

LOL...:laughing:


right, because gross generalizations about the entire gay community based upon you seeing a gay parade is not at all f-ing homophobic. but please, pretend it was just an abbreviation. Perhaps you can include an animal metaphor about "those people."


HEY!!!...I believe "those people", or at least "them", was MY metaphor...:rotate:

[Ldub]

Hey Dubaroo, sorry man, the battery in my in-every-way-a-luxury cell phone hath expired... I shall be giving you a ring ring in the morrow. :yesy:

A cel phon isn't a luxury iff'n I ain't pay'n fer it...:smilewink

[ZEUS]

In other news... holy FECES and any other word meaning excrement!!! ...I agree with so many of Chris's points I just might vomit. :bgwo: Next thing you know he will own a Jeep! ...And then, of course, he went and ruined it again... :(

Never saw this thread till this evening - WAAAAY too much fun!!!

I live in Utah - Whites have more kids than blacks or latinos do around here. Yet instead of taking money from others to support their fleets of family members they give 10% away. It's a great business model more than anything else. Our government is not... hence the economical issues we deal with.

I associate with some Africanese refugees who are more patriotic and responsible than many born-and-raised Americans... of any color. I fully believe they bring greatness as well as respectable diversity to this melting pot of a nation. However, I grew up in a border town in Texas and can tell you I predicted the future when my age was a single digit. The future is coming true yet I have already had time to deal with it... still not happy about it tho. The poor come in many a color... doesn't mean I care to pay for them. Harsh? Perhaps, but overall, and in general, in my experience the poor have brought it upon themselves and passed it onto their children. Give to those who only want to take and they will just keep taking... Nice guys get taken advantage of - we've been too nice.

Someone mentioned areas of the highest Latino immigration equaling low crime rates... that is partially because members of that society now need to be bilingual and many of the American-English speaking folk have been driven out, leaving employment voids. Having a job and responsibility means less need to thieve. So naturally some of those immigrants also became law enforcement... You don't arrest your cousin; you help him stay out of trouble... El Paso, TX was used to test the idea of a border wall - the results are why the rest of the border now has a wall. EP crime dropped dramatically but the Juarez crime skyrocketed afterward. To me, tax dollars well spent, yet also, too little too late. I believe socialistic healthcare is just a warning that existing illegal immigrants are going to be given amnesty. To me, tax dollars poorly spent.

[VXR]

back to taxes... does anyone else find it odd they tax unemployment:confused:

[Ldub]

In other news... holy FECES and any other word meaning excrement!!! ... :laughing:...mmmmmmmmmm...CORN!...:laughing:

I agree with so many of Chris's points I just might vomit. :bgwo: Next thing you know he will own a Jeep! ...And then, of course, he went and ruined it again... :(

Never saw this thread till this evening - WAAAAY too much fun!!!

I live in Utah - Whites have more kids than blacks or latinos do around here. Yet instead of taking money from others to support their fleets of family members they give 10% away. It's a great business model more than anything else. Our government is not... hence the economical issues we deal with.

I associate with some Africanese refugees who are more patriotic and responsible than many born-and-raised Americans... of any color. I fully believe they bring greatness as well as respectable diversity to this melting pot of a nation. However, I grew up in a border town in Texas and can tell you I predicted the future when my age was a single digit. The future is coming true yet I have already had time to deal with it... still not happy about it tho. The poor come in many a color... doesn't mean I care to pay for them. Harsh? Perhaps, but overall, and in general, in my experience the poor have brought it upon themselves and passed it onto their children. Give to those who only want to take and they will just keep taking... Nice guys get taken advantage of - we've been too nice.

Someone mentioned areas of the highest Latino immigration equaling low crime rates... that is partially because members of that society now need to be bilingual and many of the American-English speaking folk have been driven out, leaving employment voids. Having a job and responsibility means less need to thieve. So naturally some of those immigrants also became law enforcement... You don't arrest your cousin; you help him stay out of trouble... El Paso, TX was used to test the idea of a border wall - the results are why the rest of the border now has a wall. EP crime dropped dramatically but the Juarez crime skyrocketed afterward. To me, tax dollars well spent, yet also, too little too late. I believe socialistic healthcare is just a warning that existing illegal immigrants are going to be given amnesty. To me, tax dollars poorly spent.

B_I_NGO...:yes:

[Marlin]

...since when did dear ol' dads insurance co$t preclude my constituional right to " life, liberty & the persuit of happiness?...or my "supposed" presumption of innocence until proven guilty?
Piss'n me on the presumption of possible guilt is....
VERY heavy handed for someone that calls him or herself an american. JMO.
What I do with my time away from work is MY business, as long as it has no effect on my attendance, or ability to perform the tasks that have been assigned to me, there should be no right to search my piss for "possible" guilt. What right are YOU willing to give up for the betterment of dads business?

If I'm caught doing something illegal by the LAW, then I deserve to be punished & scrutinized, but to be searched under the presumption of guilt?...seriously?
So if I see someone doing a crime, I should do nothing about it unless the law catches them??


Oops, I think I wasn't clear on this part. He has no choice but to test them. If he doesn't, his insurance rates go way up, and then he loses money. As a company that is trying to not outsource to the China, every penny counts. The VPs took huge paycuts in order to minimize layoffs. (We are talking about VPs that only make 100k a year, not 1.5mil a year) This a company that takes care of its people, if they are willing to contribute to the company. The idea being that if you have an incentive to see your company succeed, ie-stock shares, bonuses and so on, you will try harder.
He would rather not piss test except at hiring, of if they have an accident or whatnot. But with his insurance being a significant cost in the mix, he has to. He provides coverage to his full time employees, so thinking about how much health care costs, you can see why he would do this.
Sorry if that didn't come out the way it was supposed to.

Justin,
That is a much better way to portray what I was trying to say about the Mormons. It wasn't anecdotal, it was supposed to represent Mormon policy. As a rule, they (of course not all, calm down osteo) or rather as a culture, they do not let their members go on welfare, food stamps, government aid and so on. They take care of their own.

Here we go again, as a nation, PC BS has led to minority catering. I was under the impression that democracy fundamentally meant majority rules. Apparently it only rules so long as you don't offend or not coddle each minority, be it, color, ethnic, religious, sexual orientation or otherwise.
Its ok for the government to overstep its boundaries and take my money away from me, but when it comes to making them pee in a cup to get my money, thats going to far? Riiiight, that makes a lot of sense. Throwing the PC flag is a justified call, its not a cop out to be a bigot, although it wouldn't matter anyway. BO got all kinds of flack were referring to the Special Olympics with regards to his bowling skills. Who cares? Apparently, the uber minority of special olympics folks, and guess what, now you can't even say retard. How many words are going to be black listed? Watch the movie idiocracy, that is where we are heading.
We don't want people to be self sufficient, we want people to do what they are told, yet be free while doing it at the same time? Can't have both.

[VXR]

Watch the movie idiocracy, that is where we are heading

water? you mean like in the toilet...

[Marlin]

Just a thought, no numbers or anything, but I don't think illegal immigrants want amnesty. It would destroy their niche completely. Right now they are in high demand because as an employee, they have a low overhead. No taxes, no insurance, no SS and so on. They can do the same job for half the cost. Make them all citizens, backdate their tax/ss/fees debt and now they can't work for below minimum wage anymore. That would ruin everything they have right now, and then a flood of more illegals would have to arrive to take their spot. No, if I was a hardworking illegal trying to make it in the US because Mexico and other Hispanic countries suck, making me a legal citizen would be the last thing I want. Driver's license, insurance, having to follow laws and so on. It would completely remove what makes me special and desirable.
Those positions at the bottom will still exist and need to be filled, that means more illegals will flock to fill them. Then those that were illegal are jobless and no longer competitive, and so become a bigger safety net burden?

[Marlin]

Hey, did you see any of those shows on TV with those moms that have all those feaking babies? 19 kids and counting? Kate + 8? You know, white chicks? Ever hear of the Quiverfull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull)movement? .

Your are 100% right! They are entertainment shows, not reality. That is what makes them popular. No one wants to watch a show about a house full of illegal immigrants, that is reality, thats not entertaining. Its a novelty to see something rare, like a white family with 10 kids. Think of the more popular sitcoms, Family Matters, a black family portraying the role of the sterotypical white family, The Cosby show and so on. It is entertaining because for the most part, it is fiction. Much the same as your tv show examples above. Its the same reason we have shows like "Sweet 16" and Bridezilla. We hate those girls but they are not representative of what all girls are like, and that is the entertaining part.

"Morals are gone" and yet the crime rate is the lowest it has been in decade

Really, did you realize that the US has the highest incareration rate as compared to any other country in the world.

The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world. As of year-end 2009 the rate was 743 adults incarcerated in prisons and jails per 100,000 population.[4][2] At year-end 2007 the United States had less than 5% of the world's population[27] and 23.4% of the world's prison and jail population (adult inmates).[5]

Crime is at an all time low because inmates are at an all time high.

[Ebenezr]

Goodness Gracious what have I started....:badhorse::bla:;puke2;:argue:

[samneil2000]

I hate to join the back and forth but I gotta throw my .02 in. I know first hand that there are folks here that aspire to get on social security. To them, that's making it. They would rather get it than work. I overheard a conversation between two African-American women. One was working at Target, checking. The other was a customer behind me in line. As I was checking out they struck up a conversation. The worker asked the customer where she had been. She said she hurt her ankle and had to get on social security. The checker then said oh yeah, me too. I been trying to get my social security too. I got heart problems.

Yes, you have a heart problem indeed... :madgray:

People don't realize that social security and other handouts takes peoples motivation away. People would now rather suck from the teet the nation rather than contribute to it.

Check out my blog Chris. I'm right there with ya. Too much going on in my head and needed a place to vent.
http://munfordsam.blogspot.com/

[Ebenezr]

Alright folks its time for me to chime in. It is too late. Problems should have been dealt with years ago but were not. Now we are in a damned if we do - damned if don't situation. Government spending can NOT be cut. It is too much of the economy. If we cut it then the economy will DE-stimulate and go from recession to depression. Simularly taxes can NOT be increased. Our last hope is the rich. Yes the rich. those that have the ability to create wealth and jobs by creating a business that produces inovation and new jobs. If we tax them -then we remove that wealth that they would use to create businesses and jobs. There is much more to this but I don't want to be lengthy. Batten the hatches friends. The rioting you see overseas will break out some day on our shores.. in New York City with levels of civil disobedience we never thought could happen.

[Marlin]

Alright folks its time for me to chime in. It is too late. Problems should have been dealt with years ago but were not. Now we are in a damned if we do - damned if don't situation. Government spending can NOT be cut. It is too much of the economy. If we cut it then the economy will DE-stimulate and go from recession to depression. Simularly taxes can NOT be increased. Our last hope is the rich. Yes the rich. those that have the ability to create wealth and jobs by creating a business that produces inovation and new jobs. If we tax them -then we remove that wealth that they would use to create businesses and jobs. There is much more to this but I don't want to be lengthy. Batten the hatches friends. The rioting you see overseas will break out some day on our shores.. in New York City with levels of civil disobedience we never thought could happen.


Viva la revolution!!!

Why can't we cut aid to foreign countries, tax the piss out of companies who outsource, making it cheaper to hire at home? Why can't we tier the taxes on profit, making it ideal to make a fair profit, vice the gross billions in profit and so on. That would prevent them from raising prices to maintain their current bloated profits when they are forced to hire folks at home.

[vt_maverick]

No offense Eb but that's exactly the kind of thinking that has gotten us where we're at. We've been sitting at the dinner table staring at our peas for decades - sooner or later we're going to have to eat them. Cutting spending and raising taxes will no doubt have significant and immediate negative effects, but in the long term that's what we have to do IMHO. Somewhere along the way our politicians lost their collective intestinal fortitude to make the right decision - they're primarily concerned about their ability to get re-elected, which is why you see all this "Oh no we can't even consider that, the consequences would be too great!" talk in the media. It's the consequences to their political career that are too great - we have weathered worse as a people in our past, and we can and should do it again to get to a better place.

[Marlin]

Maybe its just the conspiracy theorist in me, but I think all of these "episodes" are just smoke in mirrors. Take our free food, take our free money, and before you know it your hooked. You can do whatever you want, as long as its what we tell you to do.
I think the reps are way over paid and over pampered. The amounts of money involved are mind blowing. The amounts are so high, that its Eff you money. They can do whatever they want, and there is nothing, short of armed revolution, that will change it. Nothing. Do you really think your vote counts? How do you know? When the pres can buy his way in to the office, whose to say the same doesn't happen at the state level?

[Osteomata]

Marlin,
Sorry for the delayed response, but your factual distortions actually made my mouse freeze up this morning, heh.

I am aware of the ridiculous incarceration rate in this country, including that 14 percent of our prison population is in for non-violent drug offenses. I think the problem is vastly exacerbated by our useless, counterproductive war on drugs and the power of the prison unions and other "prison industrual complex" stakeholders. But more to the point, your suggestion that low crime rate is merely a function of high incarceration is not supported by the wider facts. Crime rates in other first world countries has also been falling along similar lines as ours, but without the vast increase in incarceration. Correlation-Causation fallacy.

As for the PC thing: no one here is censoring you or dismissing you from the conversation. Words mean things, and context matters, so if you make what appear to be broad generalizations and animal metaphors but only about certain groups, then some people are naturally going to make assumptions about your biases. Feel free to continue to use them, by all means. But pointing out that people will look askance at your word choice is hardly excessive PCness. And yes, this is a democratic republic, with a constitution and legal traditions that pretty clearly limit the "tyranny of the majority." I don't know what your democratic majority rule allusion has to do with this discussion. I don't recall anyone here advocating for a law saying you can't call the handicapped "retards" or whatever you like, and I will continue to interpret you words as seems appropriate to their meaning and usage.

Foreign aid outside of Afghanistan and Iraq represents less than 1% of our budget, about .6% iirc. It's not there just because we love them foreigners, but to provide us with access and influence over their policies. We do, in fact get such influence from it. I don't have some sort of gigantic opposition to reducing foreign aid as part of a larger economic strategy, but don't decieve yourself into thinking that it will make a big savings or that doing so will be without foriegn policy consequences.

Immigrants and taxes, interesting reading. http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

[Ebenezr]

Viva la revolution!!!

Why can't we cut aid to foreign countries, tax the piss out of companies who outsource, making it cheaper to hire at home? Why can't we tier the taxes on profit, making it ideal to make a fair profit, vice the gross billions in profit and so on. That would prevent them from raising prices to maintain their current bloated profits when they are forced to hire folks at home.

That is exactly what I'm referring to when I stated I couldn't say anymore in order to keep it brief. There are reams of reasons and things we can do BUT THEY WILL not be done because big corps are in bed with politicians and political parties and for that reason it will NEVER get done. Batten the hatches friends!!

[Marlin]

Marlin,
Sorry for the delayed response, but your factual distortions actually made my mouse freeze up this morning, heh.

I am aware of the ridiculous incarceration rate in this country, including that 14 percent of our prison population is in for non-violent drug offenses. I think the problem is vastly exacerbated by our useless, counterproductive war on drugs and the power of the prison unions and other "prison industrual complex" stakeholders. But more to the point, your suggestion that low crime rate is merely a function of high incarceration is not supported by the wider facts. Crime rates in other first world countries has also been falling along similar lines as ours, but without the vast increase in incarceration. Correlation-Causation fallacy.

As for the PC thing: no one here is censoring you or dismissing you from the conversation. Words mean things, and context matters, so if you make what appear to be broad generalizations and animal metaphors but only about certain groups, then some people are naturally going to make assumptions about your biases. Feel free to continue to use them, by all means. But pointing out that people will look askance at your word choice is hardly excessive PCness. And yes, this is a democratic republic, with a constitution and legal traditions that pretty clearly limit the "tyranny of the majority." I don't know what your democratic majority rule allusion has to do with this discussion. I don't recall anyone here advocating for a law saying you can't call the handicapped "retards" or whatever you like, and I will continue to interpret you words as seems appropriate to their meaning and usage.

Foreign aid outside of Afghanistan and Iraq represents less than 1% of our budget, about .6% iirc. It's not there just because we love them foreigners, but to provide us with access and influence over their policies. We do, in fact get such influence from it. I don't have some sort of gigantic opposition to reducing foreign aid as part of a larger economic strategy, but don't decieve yourself into thinking that it will make a big savings or that doing so will be without foriegn policy consequences.

Immigrants and taxes, interesting reading. http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

I keep hearing that same concept in budget cuts. "Its not a significant portion of the budget". How about if you add all those insignificant portions,they start adding up. My cable bill is a small part of my monthly budget. So is my cell,netflix, gamefly, going out to eat and so on. Add those all together, they start to become significant.

As for incarceration, I was being sarcastic, and I agree with you on the drug thing, as I have already pointed out. But it should come with a cost. If you go for government health care, but you are a smoker/crack head/heroin addict, and so on, then you get turned away. We will help you if you need it, but don't abuse it. That would be like free health care for the idiots on Jackass.

And for the PC thing, I repeatedly said all humans with reference to breeding. As my gay friends like to say, "there are white breeders too". That term actually came from the gay community as a slur toward heteros. I just don't care to tiptoe around other's feelings. Get over it, it makes me think of the cliche: "Its the thought that counts". No matter what word I use, you know what I mean.

[Ebenezr]

And furthermore Marlin while I have you on the line aren't you the one who has a line on VX parts??? My upper trailing link off the rear axle has a creaky clunk because of play in the bushing. Do you know where I can get a bushing?....this is more important than federal budget cuts. :0)

[Osteomata]

I keep hearing that same concept in budget cuts. "Its not a significant portion of the budget". How about if you add all those insignificant portions,they start adding up. My cable bill is a small part of my monthly budget. So is my cell,netflix, gamefly, going out to eat and so on. Add those all together, they start to become significant.

I agree. My comment was merely to put the size of the foreign aid budget in perspective and mention that we do gain advantages from that investment. Reasonable people can disagree about whether those things are worth the money, and how big or small the amount should be.


As for incarceration, I was being sarcastic, and I agree with you on the drug thing, as I have already pointed out. But it should come with a cost. If you go for government health care, but you are a smoker/crack head/heroin addict, and so on, then you get turned away. We will help you if you need it, but don't abuse it. That would be like free health care for the idiots on Jackass.

No I could not tell that you were being sarcastic. It looked like you were pretty convinced that the crime rate reductions were a direct result of the prison population. Any hoo, I suspect we could take a tiny fraction of the money we flush down the toilet on the drug war and put that towards treatment and we would be way better off as a society.


And for the PC thing, I repeatedly said all humans with reference to breeding. As my gay friends like to say, "there are white breeders too". That term actually came from the gay community as a slur toward heteros. I just don't care to tiptoe around other's feelings. Get over it, it makes me think of the cliche: "Its the thought that counts". No matter what word I use, you know what I mean.

But I don't know what you mean, at least not all the time. I will simply take your word for it on the gay thing, with the caveat that having a friend in minority x does not in any way mean that you don't have irrational and unfair judgements about group x. As a comedic example, Archie Bunker was unquestionably a bigot, and he had minority friends. (No I am not calling you Archie Bunker or a bigot, just making a point about the way people try to inoculate themselves against criticism while simultaniously making outlandish statements). But for the ethnic minorities and the poor in general: no I am not at all convinced by your after the fact assertions on this matter. It really does seam like you think of them as slightly less than human.

[Scott Harness]

No offense Eb but that's exactly the kind of thinking that has gotten us where we're at. We've been sitting at the dinner table staring at our peas for decades - sooner or later we're going to have to eat them. Cutting spending and raising taxes will no doubt have significant and immediate negative effects, but in the long term that's what we have to do IMHO. Somewhere along the way our politicians lost their collective intestinal fortitude to make the right decision - they're primarily concerned about their ability to get re-elected, which is why you see all this "Oh no we can't even consider that, the consequences would be too great!" talk in the media. It's the consequences to their political career that are too great - we have weathered worse as a people in our past, and we can and should do it again to get to a better place.

Here Here...nail on the head!!

[Ebenezr]

No offense Eb but that's exactly the kind of thinking that has gotten us where we're at. We've been sitting at the dinner table staring at our peas for decades - sooner or later we're going to have to eat them. Cutting spending and raising taxes will no doubt have significant and immediate negative effects, but in the long term that's what we have to do IMHO. Somewhere along the way our politicians lost their collective intestinal fortitude to make the right decision - they're primarily concerned about their ability to get re-elected, which is why you see all this "Oh no we can't even consider that, the consequences would be too great!" talk in the media. It's the consequences to their political career that are too great - we have weathered worse as a people in our past, and we can and should do it again to get to a better place.


Here Here...nail on the head!!

Cutting spending=instant move from recession to depression. The gov is too large a part of the economy. Raising taxes will kill the financing that upper class provides to create wealth. "It takes money to make money". But aside that it will not happen cause politicians are in a form of checkmate. They CANT make it happen because of the roadblocks in thier way.

[vt_maverick]

Cutting spending=instant move from recession to depression.

And this is a bad thing (relative to gradual complete insolvency / default) because? We can choose the difficult path while we actually have control, or we can wait until our creditors are ordering us what to do.

[Ebenezr]

The US has been like a frog in hot water when it reaches a boil it is too late. It can't jump out.

[Marlin]

And furthermore Marlin while I have you on the line aren't you the one who has a line on VX parts??? My upper trailing link off the rear axle has a creaky clunk because of play in the bushing. Do you know where I can get a bushing?....this is more important than federal budget cuts. :0)

LOL, that is Merlin, not me. I can get VX parts off of a VX I have here at a local yard, but for consumables, I always use isuzuparts.com. :)

As for being a bigot, eh, there are far worse things I could be. Perhaps I am, but not in the sense that you might think. I am prochoice for the same reason that I am ok with gays getting married. I don't care what they do if it doesn't infringe on other's rights. (Insert libertarian here) Homosexuality is a genetic defect, I can't hold someone accountable for that. Just don't push it in my face, much the same as religion. There has to be limits on it. So when it comes to minorities/poor, and you can throw the poor whites in the mix as well, that is fine( I am an equal opportunity hater:) ), I am intolerant of those that refuse to change for the better. I don't care if your culture has been around for 500 years, your country sucks for a reason, don't bring it here, if you want to come here because its better, do it legally, and do it completely. Don't spout your La Raza BS, or insist that you be called African American. Don't hoist your flag above the flag of the nation that is saving your ***. Assimilate, embrace the culture that made this country so great, and get with the team. The hispanic heritage didn't make this country great, no more than it has made their own countries great. If I come to your home, I am going to follow your rules and your customs. I expect that at a country level as well. Emulate those that succeed. The conservative white culture got us this far, only to be derailed in the last 30 years or so. I don't care what your color is, act like those that succeed, perhaps you will do the same.
Yes, I am insensitive, intolerant, prejudiced (based on my own personal experience), I am not a big fan of women on ships, I loath the hip-hop culture and what it tells our children, and I wish native americans would get jobs and join the winning team already. Its been a few hundred years, the argument is over. I think that about covers it. So I suppose that yes, I am a bigot.

[vt_maverick]

Was that the sound of Osteo's head exploding I just heard? Lol...

[Marlin]

Was that the sound of Osteo's head exploding I just heard? Lol...

:disturbed

Not sure why, that's what he wanted to hear. From where I sit, it all makes sense. Until someone can show me numbers/facts proving otherwise, my views are not likely to change. Touchy feely sensitive emotions aren't gonna do it. Like we say in the military, "Hope doesn't get **** done."

[vt_maverick]

My favorite is "Visions without funding are hallucinations." :D

[tom4bren]

Y'all are missing the big picture.

It's not just the Big G

It's the American way.

Why does Fredericksburg, VA need 4 Super Walmarts and 3 Super Targets? We just ain't that big folks. But they'll keep building them until not only does the market go down the toilet (it already has) but the entire sewage system explodes and everyone is wearing fecal matter makeup.

Sure, the DOD is huge but it's not just a money pit. It also creates jobs. Anyone care to guess how cutting the Defense budget in half is going to effect unemployment???

[Ebenezr]

Osteo We will give you credit for one thing....one of the longest running most viewed threads on the forum "What are you doing to your VX this week" he he he he. :o)

[Ebenezr]

Y'all are missing the big picture.

It's not just the Big G

It's the American way.

Why does Fredericksburg, VA need 4 Super Walmarts and 3 Super Targets? We just ain't that big folks. But they'll keep building them until not only does the market go down the toilet (it already has) but the entire sewage system explodes and everyone is wearing fecal matter makeup.

Sure, the DOD is huge but it's not just a money pit. It also creates jobs. Anyone care to guess how cutting the Defense budget in half is going to effect unemployment???

The reason you need all them walmarts is cause the government has taken all your money!!!!!!!!
:madb:

[circmand]

"Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"

thats why 70 welfare organizations spending hundreds of millions a year has never solved poverty. You appreciate what you work for and not what is given to you. That is why some families own the houses their ancestors bought 200 years ago and subsidized housing needs torn down and rebuilt every 40 years.

[Osteomata]

This is the most offensive thing said on this entire thread. Please stop this offense against frog-based science! http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp


The US has been like a frog in hot water when it reaches a boil it is too late. It can't jump out.

[Osteomata]

Not particularly, because it became somewhat clear during this and other discussions that this was pretty much Marlins view. Inhereant white cultural superiorty, tolerance of others so long as the don't get uppity, and dismissing criticism of any of that as merely touchy-feely overly sensitive PCness. Par for the course.

Was that the sound of Osteo's head exploding I just heard? Lol...

[Marlin]

This is the most offensive thing said on this entire thread. Please stop this offense against frog-based science! http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp

Huh, not that snopes is the cure all end all, but it would be interesting to see Myth Busters tackle it. But, MB is filmed in Cali, so they would have 1000 protestors out front as soon as they mentioned it. Whats a few frogs for the name of science?!

[Ebenezr]

Ok well how about a lobster boiled in water then!???

[VXR]

Not particularly, because it became somewhat clear during this and other discussions that this was pretty much Marlins view. Inhereant white cultural superiorty, tolerance of others so long as the don't get uppity, and dismissing criticism of any of that as merely touchy-feely overly sensitive PCness. Par for the course.

did you mean to finish with a golf term? Either way THATS funny...

[Marlin]

Not particularly, because it became somewhat clear during this and other discussions that this was pretty much Marlins view. Inhereant white cultural superiorty, tolerance of others so long as the don't get uppity, and dismissing criticism of any of that as merely touchy-feely overly sensitive PCness. Par for the course.

No, not white cultural superiority, but rather, the culture that did best superiority, just so happens it was white. What other culture has done as well? Hispanic, certainly not or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. African, nope, even with one of the richest continents in the world, as far as natural resources, it just isn't happening for them, nor is it going to. Arabic, they would be notta without their oil reserves. Asian, perhaps, but we got them on the resources tab, so that would be our primary competitor in the big picture. Their sense of honor and pride is much higher than ours on the whole. Strangely enough, their immigrants aren't flooding the prisons or draining the social safety net programs...huh, who woulda thought?
What other culture has the ability and the empathy to play world police, feed the children, save the world. Even when I disagree with it, we are still the only culture to do it time and time again, regardless of our own problems. Our military spends more time building and supporting than we do killing and oppressing. No other culture in the world can say that.
So once again, other than "its not fair, thats close minded", provide me with some tangible data to show otherwise. Show me what good it does for the nation to embrace this onslaught of cultural integration. Perhaps it will get us to Mars, who knows, maybe they can drive a taco truck....lol. Sorry, I thought of that last one, and it made me laugh. "Hola Martianos, taco, burrito, churro, chiclet?"

[Ebenezr]

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/boiled_frogs.jpg

The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.:upsetgray:mady::madb2::madgray::upsetwgra

[VXR]

"Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"

this coming from someone posting while at work...

[Marlin]

this coming from someone posting while at work...

HAHAHAHAHA! Maybe he is a union worker and he is required to do as little work as possible so they can keep production expectations low.:) BAD ME, I just can't help myself.....:smack:

[Osteomata]

I would say you have a very short historical view. Lots and lots of non-white cultures have achieved empire, long lasting stability, and vastly superior technology, and even some white ones would not exactly have been considered totally white just a few decades ago. In the historical scheme of things US dominance is a short thing, even western european dominance. Just ask the British, Spanish, and Prussian empires about the long march. When one looks to the future, an awful lot of futurists see an Indian, Chinese, and Brazilian rise to superpower status. You might note those are not "white" by the standards you are using. Other than this, you earlier rant about assimilation is deeply flawed. Study after study shows that Hispanics assimilate at the same rate as other historical minorities. Talk to a second generation Latino and his Spanish is already degraded. Third gen and they prefer English and many completely struggle to speak Spanish at all.


No, not white cultural superiority, but rather, the culture that did best superiority, just so happens it was white. What other culture has done as well? Hispanic, certainly not or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. African, nope, even with one of the richest continents in the world, as far as natural resources, it just isn't happening for them, nor is it going to. Arabic, they would be notta without their oil reserves. Asian, perhaps, but we got them on the resources tab, so that would be our primary competitor in the big picture. Their sense of honor and pride is much higher than ours on the whole. Strangely enough, their immigrants aren't flooding the prisons or draining the social safety net programs...huh, who woulda thought?
What other culture has the ability and the empathy to play world police, feed the children, save the world. Even when I disagree with it, we are still the only culture to do it time and time again, regardless of our own problems. Our military spends more time building and supporting than we do killing and oppressing. No other culture in the world can say that.
So once again, other than "its not fair, thats close minded", provide me with some tangible data to show otherwise. Show me what good it does for the nation to embrace this onslaught of cultural integration. Perhaps it will get us to Mars, who knows, maybe they can drive a taco truck....lol. Sorry, I thought of that last one, and it made me laugh. "Hola Martianos, taco, burrito, churro, chiclet?"

[Ldub]

...since when did dear ol' dads insurance co$t preclude my constituional right to " life, liberty & the persuit of happiness?...or my "supposed" presumption of innocence until proven guilty?
Piss'n me on the presumption of possible guilt is....
VERY heavy handed for someone that calls him or herself an american. JMO.
What I do with my time away from work is MY business, as long as it has no effect on my attendance, or ability to perform the tasks that have been assigned to me, there should be no right to search my piss for "possible" guilt. What right are YOU willing to give up for the betterment of dads business?

If I'm caught doing something illegal by the LAW, then I deserve to be punished & scrutinized, but to be searched under the presumption of guilt?...seriously?


"So if I see someone doing a crime, I should do nothing about it unless the law catches them??"


x
YEAH...THAT'S EXACTLY what was meant when I went all indignant over ILLEGAL searches of my piss under the presumption (without ANY evidence) of guilt...:rolleyesg

How could you possibly comprehend my statement to mean "stand by & do nothing?...seriously...:confused:

It's not daddys job, NOR the job of the company he works for, to police my piss under the PRESUMPTION OF GUILT, & without probable cause.

I can see it in my mind...

"dod: think we should test this one for drugs?"

"other subordinate employ: Well YEAH...he filled out an ap right?...there's your probable cause...:yesgray:
You'd HAVE to be on drugs to wanna work here...:laughing:

You are awfully fond of quoting some of those who framed the constitution, yet have no problem looking the other way when it's something wrong (re-read the constitution again, especially the part about search & seizure) being done in the name of corp profits.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

OK, the insurance co$t argument...:rolleyesg

If in fact it were true:
Bow down to your corporate overlords peon...:smack:

A far more likely scenario is:

With paid time away from work, combined with the actual co$t of the lab work, x however many employees they are testing...:upsetgray
I have tremendous doubt if that argument holds much water.
Oops, I think I wasn't clear on this part. He has no choice but to test them. If he doesn't, his insurance rates go way up, and then he loses money. As a company that is trying to not outsource to the China, every penny counts. The VPs took huge paycuts in order to minimize layoffs. (We are talking about VPs that only make 100k a year, not 1.5mil a year) This a company that takes care of its people, if they are willing to contribute to the company. The idea being that if you have an incentive to see your company succeed, ie-stock shares, bonuses and so on, you will try harder.
He would rather not piss test except at hiring, of if they have an accident or whatnot. But with his insurance being a significant cost in the mix, he has to. He provides coverage to his full time employees, so thinking about how much health care costs, you can see why he would do this.xx

[rsteinmetz70112]

Hey guy's get a room!

If you're a libertarian and believe everyone has a personal right of association, if your prospective employer want's you to piss in a cup.

DO IT and don't complain about his (or her ) choices.

You were looking for a job when you found that one, just keep on lookin'

[Marlin]

xx

No, the constitution protects you from the government searching you and so on against your will. My dad's factory is not a government agency, and you provide your urine of your own free will. He can't make you. You have a choice!!!!! He just won't hire you. No law against that. As an employee, think of yourself as a tool for the company so to speak. You want the best tools possible. You wouldn't do precision machining with a Harbor Freight lathe? You get the idea.
His company also makes his guys and girls cut their hair, or else it has to be compressed under a helmet. If it doesn't fit, then you get it removed. Lots of heavy machinery and rotating machinery, its not a safe place for loose clothing/hair.
Guess what, I have to wear a uniform to work, shave, have my haircut a specific way and so on. I can't bring my phone to work, and I get random searched all the time, for no reason, just cause, just in case I might have a phone. Where is the ACLU!!! My rights are being violated!!!
No, an employer should be able to do an initial drug test, he is investing time in money on you. He should be able to tests if there is an accident, or reasonable cause. If you don't like it, work somewhere else. Thats the glory, you have a choice!!!
I would test drive a car, check the oil, and so on If I was buying a home, I would have it inspected, check the attic and so on. An employee is potentially a 50 year investment.

Here is another good one, if I get in trouble out in town, say a DUI, I do my civil court stuff and so on. Then I come back to work and do it again, where I get reduced in rank,(lowered pay, no chance for promotion...and possibly even fired. You would expect that since your tax dollars are going to fund this operation, you should have safe operators. Essentially I work for you. Wouldn't trust a drunk/drug guy with a million dollar machine would you? Would you want to put your life in the hands of a heroin addict? Working in a factory with 200 ton presses, metal saws, robotic welders and so on is no different. Its a dangerous job if you aren't paying attention.

I am a volunteer in the military, I knew the rules when I signed up. I had a choice to not work here.

[tom4bren]

Its a dangerous job if you aren't paying attention.

X2

Just this past Monday I got to work all blurry from too much partying over the weekend - wasn't paying attention to what I was doing - got a paper cut - hurt like hell. I wonder if I should file workman's comp???

JK, I'm a G-Civ. I didn't come to work on Monday ... & nobody even noticed.

Interesting turn of events yesterday though. They MADE me fill out an application to telecommute. No problem there (I commute 45 miles each way) I'll telecommute however I can, whenever I can.

Here's the rub: If post ever closes for weather or if the Government ever shuts down for $$$, I HAVE to put in my 9 from home (potentially for free).

[Marlin]

Wow, that fizzled out pretty quick. How boring. Come on, there has to be something else, some kind of counter somewhere in there. :(
I was having fun!!! Just like Osteo said, better to argue over what we disagree on than to talk about how much we agree on something else.
I even threw in a jab on the billions we spend on Indians.

[Ldub]

No, the constitution protects you from the government searching you and so on against your will. My dad's factory is not a government agency, and you provide your urine of your own free will. He can't make you. You have a choice!!!!! He just won't hire you. No law against that. As an employee, think of yourself as a tool

Ummmmmmmmm...no thanx, you enjoy your status as a "tool"...I'd rather be poor...:laughing:

[VXR]

Ummmmmmmmm...no thanx, you enjoy your status as a "tool"...I'd rather be poor...:laughing:

you could be both:yesb:

[Marlin]

Well, how about you think of yourself as an employer. Start a company, provide insurance, paycheck, safety, security and so on. But, you cannot ask them any questions, no interviews and of course no drug tests. You can be the Toolmaster!! I wonder how long that lasts?

(Please note my earlier comment about legalizing pot, never seen anyone high beat their girlfriend, get in a fight and so on)

[Osteomata]

Drug testing policy bores me, I already said I am not particularly hard over on the issue. Now national drug policy is a different story entirely.

Besides, you and I have already repeated ourselves redundantly on the issues that were brought up, which only lead us to a dead end on discussion on race and ethnicity.

[Marlin]

Drug testing policy bores me, I already said I am not particularly hard over on the issue. Now national drug policy is a different story entirely.

Besides, you and I have already repeated ourselves redundantly on the issues that were brought up, which only lead us to a dead end on discussion on race and ethnicity.

Hmmm, ok, how about the article today about the mom being arrested and her teenage daughter taken away because the mother refused to administer some ADHD drug to her. CPS says its child endangerment to not give her the drugs.

I don't see how anyone can think this is ok, ADHD is a made up and certainly non-life threatening disorder. The conservative (as opposed to liberal...lol)amish/menanites refuse medicine of any kind, even aspirin, so how do they keep their kids? Either way, its not the government's job to tell you what drugs you have to give your kids.

http://www.naturalnews.com/033295_parental_neglect_psychiatric_drugs.html

[Ebenezr]

:badhorse:

[Marlin]

:badhorse:

Oh well, I suppose this thread is dead until something else happens, I will be back in time for peak 2012 election debates!!! (Well, if the country still exists and is free to vote) Yippee!! I look forward to it!

[circmand]

Hmmm, ok, how about the article today about the mom being arrested and her teenage daughter taken away because the mother refused to administer some ADHD drug to her. CPS says its child endangerment to not give her the drugs.

I don't see how anyone can think this is ok, ADHD is a made up and certainly non-life threatening disorder. The conservative (as opposed to liberal...lol)amish/menanites refuse medicine of any kind, even aspirin, so how do they keep their kids? Either way, its not the government's job to tell you what drugs you have to give your kids.

http://www.naturalnews.com/033295_parental_neglect_psychiatric_drugs.html

3 siblings go on a robbing and shooting spree. Or when some 3rd generation welfare recipient gives birth to their octuplets, or when the kids not going to school and the parent isnt making them or here lately a woman who was granted child visitation to her kid that was taken away who was found naked and passed out with the baby in a filthy diaper a broken fride and only rotten food in the house. I am not big on govt intervention but I beleive some people shouldnt be allowed kids. And giving the parents time after time to keep screwing up is not fair to the kid

[Osteomata]

While the excessive force and intrusion of various child protective services is certainly worth a critical look, I am highly suspicious about this source and the accuracy of the facts as they present them. Seriously Marlin, your taking naturalnews.com as a legit and reliable news source? Wackjob psuedoscientific snake oil peddling combined with the most ludicroius of conspiracy theories. Did you see the article below it, by the same author? The one alledging wide spread selling of children by CPS into sexual slavery? Yeah, good link there allright.

So I read at least 10 other articles from local news sources, and not one of them said the medication was for ADHD, it was for psychosis. reasonable people can disagree about the utility of such drugs, overmedication, and intrusion of the State in parental matters, and maybe this is a case where all three are supportable, but I think a better starting point is called for.

[Osteomata]

Man you have sent me down a rabbit hole. I don't think I can adequately express how bad the local news is on the Maryanne Godboldo story, giving the most cursory information cut and pasted from their last article. I have read through maybe 20 things, and there are a LOT of allegations out there, and almost no one supporting those allegations with any evidence. But it really really does seem that Michigan CPS acted deplorably, made no effort at intervention before the take away order, snatched a child in an unnecessarily combative way and using a warrant no judge had seen, kept the child institutionalized rather than letting her stay with other families, and realized that she probably didn’t need the drug that they took her away in order to administer anyway. AND that may be routine, AND that if it had not been for the police standoff, it would have been brushed under the carpet and this woman might still be separated from the child. Looks bad.

[Marlin]

This makes me think of the DUI concept,if a person gets busted with a DUI, its probably their 100th time driving drunk, and certainly not their first. How many similar cases are there each day in America? Even if it was for psychosis, who is the government to tell the mom that she has to drug her daughter?
Also keep in mind that psychology is an art, not a science. A psychology degree is a BA, not a BS. Everything in psychology, especially meds, is not fact, but theory. They are not sure how all of those drugs work, only the results.
It drives me up the wall how a doctor will give a 30 day supply of xanax to a housewife knowing that 49% of patients are addicted in less than 14 days. The xanax website goes on to say that withdrawal can be fatal if not tapered after long term usage, with they defined as 12 weeks. 12 weeks!? They had my wife on that stuff for months, enough pills every 30 days for a pill a day, phone in refills. The doctor was also not aware of the severe long term effects of benzos. Upon further research,UK strictly limits xanax and other benzos to 5 pills per month without admission to a hospital. The same can be said about ambien, lunesta, vicodin and so on. These drugs are highly addictive, potentially brain damaging and life destroying. I refer to them as recreational housewife drugs.
When did doctors get into the business of making people happy vice making them better? That was rhetorical, once drug companies started giving kickbacks/incentives for pushing "sponsored" meds, that is when. In some places, its illegal for a doc to get a kickback form the company, so they "rent" bulletin board or table space for advertisements. Drives me crazy. When I broke my hand a few months ago, the doc tried to prescribe me vicodin, it only hurt if I squeezed hard, such as a hand shake. I said "no way, wouldn't it be safer to just tell me not to squeeze hard till its completely healed?" He said that would work too. Here he was, ready to give me a narcotic, just to make me happy?

[Osteomata]

I'm not going to argue that there is a problem with over-prescribing by docs going on, but a few things about your statement seem either inaccurate or exaggerated. Regardless of the type of bachelors degree associated with an undergraduate education, psychology is not an "art", it is a science, albeit a soft science, say in the way that economics is. Universities vary as to whether it is a BA or a BS, with some offering both options. But that is hardly the issue because prescribing of such medication is done by either a full doctor (often a psychiatrist), but not a psychologist. The former has a full medical degree not just a BA or BS.

As for fact vs theory, that pretty much describes science as a whole. Gravity is a theory. The Germ Theory of Disease is a theory. The question is if the theory is well supported and in the case of benzos or other psychiatric meds, are the chemical mechanisms known. You seem to be suggesting that they are not, that doctors stumbled across these chemicals and found that the produce X result much of the time without knowing how. This is just not true. The mechanisms for Xanax and the rest are quite well known. Which is not to say that they are not overprescribed, addictive, contain variable side effects, have varying efficacy for different individuals, and must be weened off to avoid a bad and dangerous chemical imbalance. They also have great value for quite a number of people.

I have also experienced exactly the opposite in terms of doctors willingness to prescribe much of anything. I suspect this may be a function of being on Tricare rather than having access to an actual military clinic now, but the last primary care doc my wife and I had was about as stingy with even the most basic prescriptions, and wreaked some havoc for us when we were trying to continue a course of treatment for allergies after moving to his area. I can't imagine what we would have had to do to get him to prescribe something like Xanax.

Pain medication is a funny thing. For many injuries, not having the pain med significantly interferes with the healing process due to an inability to relax the muscles around the effected area, sleep, or work through rehabilitation. I want to repeat that I believe you about overprescription for plenty of people, and abuse by even more, but pain treatment has become pretty demonized, and doctors specializing in it are getting harder to find as they become more afraid of being raided based on bad or manufactured evidence, and caught up in a politically charged overreaction by the government when all they are trying to do is manage real patient pain. Which brings us full circle.


This makes me think of the DUI concept,if a person gets busted with a DUI, its probably their 100th time driving drunk, and certainly not their first. How many similar cases are there each day in America? Even if it was for psychosis, who is the government to tell the mom that she has to drug her daughter?
Also keep in mind that psychology is an art, not a science. A psychology degree is a BA, not a BS. Everything in psychology, especially meds, is not fact, but theory. They are not sure how all of those drugs work, only the results.
It drives me up the wall how a doctor will give a 30 day supply of xanax to a housewife knowing that 49% of patients are addicted in less than 14 days. The xanax website goes on to say that withdrawal can be fatal if not tapered after long term usage, with they defined as 12 weeks. 12 weeks!? They had my wife on that stuff for months, enough pills every 30 days for a pill a day, phone in refills. The doctor was also not aware of the severe long term effects of benzos. Upon further research,UK strictly limits xanax and other benzos to 5 pills per month without admission to a hospital. The same can be said about ambien, lunesta, vicodin and so on. These drugs are highly addictive, potentially brain damaging and life destroying. I refer to them as recreational housewife drugs.
When did doctors get into the business of making people happy vice making them better? That was rhetorical, once drug companies started giving kickbacks/incentives for pushing "sponsored" meds, that is when. In some places, its illegal for a doc to get a kickback form the company, so they "rent" bulletin board or table space for advertisements. Drives me crazy. When I broke my hand a few months ago, the doc tried to prescribe me vicodin, it only hurt if I squeezed hard, such as a hand shake. I said "no way, wouldn't it be safer to just tell me not to squeeze hard till its completely healed?" He said that would work too. Here he was, ready to give me a narcotic, just to make me happy?

[Marlin]

I'm not going to argue that there is a problem with over-prescribing by docs going on, but a few things about your statement seem either inaccurate or exaggerated. Regardless of the type of bachelors degree associated with an undergraduate education, psychology is not an "art", it is a science, albeit a soft science, say in the way that economics is. Universities vary as to whether it is a BA or a BS, with some offering both options. But that is hardly the issue because prescribing of such medication is done by either a full doctor (often a psychiatrist), but not a psychologist. The former has a full medical degree not just a BA or BS.

As for fact vs theory, that pretty much describes science as a whole. Gravity is a theory. The Germ Theory of Disease is a theory. The question is if the theory is well supported and in the case of benzos or other psychiatric meds, are the chemical mechanisms known. You seem to be suggesting that they are not, that doctors stumbled across these chemicals and found that the produce X result much of the time without knowing how. This is just not true. The mechanisms for Xanax and the rest are quite well known. Might want to do some research before you say its quite well known.This is straight out of the xanax warning sheet, its several pages long, like anyone has ever read it....lol. I will provide the link if you'd like, but this is the opening paragraph "CNS agents of the 1,4 benzodiazepine class presumably exert their effects by binding at stereospecific receptors at several sites within the central nervous system. Their exact mechanism of action is unknown." C Which is not to say that they are not overprescribed, addictive, contain variable side effects, have varying efficacy for different individuals, and must be weened off to avoid a bad and dangerous chemical imbalance. They also have great value for quite a number of people.
The xanax site says it is designed for people who suffer from panic disorder. Unless you are inferring that 44 million people suffer from panic disorder, there are not just a few doctors prescribing these recreational meds.
I have also experienced exactly the opposite in terms of doctors willingness to prescribe much of anything. I suspect this may be a function of being on Tricare rather than having access to an actual military clinic now, but the last primary care doc my wife and I had was about as stingy with even the most basic prescriptions, and wreaked some havoc for us when we were trying to continue a course of treatment for allergies after moving to his area. I can't imagine what we would have had to do to get him to prescribe something like Xanax.

Pain medication is a funny thing. For many injuries, not having the pain med significantly interferes with the healing process due to an inability to relax the muscles around the effected area, sleep, or work through rehabilitation. I want to repeat that I believe you about overprescription for plenty of people, and abuse by even more, but pain treatment has become pretty demonized, and doctors specializing in it are getting harder to find as they become more afraid of being raided based on bad or manufactured evidence, and caught up in a politically charged overreaction by the government when all they are trying to do is manage real patient pain. Which brings us full circle.

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/02/134143813/the-oxy-express-floridas-drug-abuse-epidemic

This is an epidemic across the nation. These meds are not obtained illegally, they are given to patients by their doctors. Doctors who are paid by the pharmacorp industry to perpetuate this addiction. Doctors that are supposed to be oath bound to help the patient, not addict them to a deadly drug. The more addicts, the more money. Much the same as cigarettes. As for the difficulty of getting meds, I agree, on base docs, almost impossible. Military docs can't get a kickback form the drug company. Unfortunately, most military docs only see active duty now, they farm out dependents to civilian drug dealers...I mean doctors. Those doctors that accept tricare do it a significant cost reduction compared to other insruance policies. That means in order to receive the same profit, they need to blow thorugh as many patients as possible, no time for treatment, write a script, bill tricare, cha-ching!!! I interviewed my wife's psych and recorded the one hour session, with her permission of course. She was a therapist and medicinal manager. That is her official title. Turns out, they do absolutely no therapy at those places. I asked what therapy they offered, her response was that they talk. She saw my wife 3 hours in a 9 month period, yet my wife had xanax, ambien, and sometimes lunesta as well, overlapping. This is on top of her vicodin topomax that was prescribed by other doctors. The doctors also went on to say that it was my responsibility to let the doctor know if she was abusing her meds. How am I supposed to know what meds she is on, or even who her doctor is?! An addict doesn't dime out her dealer. I only found it by going through my wife's purse while she was in rehab. The doctor also knew that I had two toddlers at home, yet she said it was not her problem if my wife was watching the kids while rolling on xanax/vicodin and ambien. NOT HER PROBLEM!!!! She is the one that prescribed it. This is not just one doc, this is 7 years of doctors in San Diego, Guam, Norfolk, Ohio, and Charleston. This is a string of civilian docs across the nation. This infers a pattern of drug dealing. 44 million xanax prescriptions last year alone. That is evidence enough that your situation is the exception, not the norm.
ANyway, you can see where this is going, it lead to disaster. One month in patient rehab, and a lifetime of pain. The doctor said it was no big deal to prescribe xanax over the phone, it was only 30 days at a time!
I pulled the string, started calling past doctors, same story. I inquired whether my wife was diagnosed with some type of panic disorder? Nope, they said (the lead Dr was present at my interview) that she indicated symptoms of stress and that xanax is often prescribed to mediate stress. Holy ****, stress, really? That is enough to get life altering highly addictive meds?
My wife was eventually sent to an addiction specialist psych. That guy tried ot give my wife ambien the first visit!!! Are you kidding?!
SO no, its not just a few docs, its an entire industry. The entire industry is a crock. Therapy is EXTREMELY time consuming, and therefore the insurance company will not pay for it, and the doc would be limited to only 3-5 patients per day. He isn't gonna make any money that way. 15 minutes, write a script, 20 patients a day, now thats how you make money.

Psychiatric disorders are not medical diseases. There are no lab tests, brain scans, X-rays or chemical imbalance tests that can verify any mental disorder is a physical condition. This is not to say that people do not get depressed, or that people can’t experience emotional or mental duress, but psychiatry has repackaged these emotions and behaviors as “disease” in order to sell drugs. This is a brilliant marketing campaign, but it is not science.
Psychiatry’s diagnostic criteria are literally voted into existence and inserted into the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM). What is voted in is a system of classification of symptoms that is drastically different from, and foreign to, anything in medicine. None of the diagnoses are supported by objective evidence of physical disease, illness, or
science.

Here is the link for the xanax info, straight off of the pfizer/xanax website
http://labeling.pfizer.com/ShowLabeling.aspx?id=543

[Marlin]

While “there has been no shortage of alleged biochemical explanations for psychiatric conditions…not one has been proven. Quite the contrary. In every instance where such an imbalance was thought to have been found, it was later proven false.” —Dr. Joseph Glenmullen, Harvard Medical School psychiatrist

“The theories are held on to not only because there is nothing else to take their place, but also because they are useful in promoting drug treatment.” —Dr. Elliott Valenstein Ph.D., author of Blaming the Brain

Little surprise then that worldwide statistics show that a rapidly increasing percentage of every age group, from children to the elderly, rely heavily and routinely on these drugs in their daily lives. Global sales of antidepressants, stimulants, antianxiety and antipsychotic drugs have reached more than $76 billion a year—more than double the annual US government budget spent on the war against drugs.

When you say that psychology is a science, I beg to differ, even the "doctors" involved admit that isn't science.

The “science-by-vote” procedure is as surprising to a layperson as it is to other health professionals, who have witnessed DSM voting meetings. “Mental disorders are established without scientific basis and procedure,” a psychologist attending the DSM hearings said. “The low level of intellectual effort was shocking. Diagnoses were developed by majority vote on the level we would use to choose a restaurant. Then it’s typed into the computer. It may reflect on our naiveté, but it was our belief that there would be an attempt to look at the things scientifically.”

[Ebenezr]

:drama::badhorse::ot::hj::bla:

[Ebenezr]

I must say however that you two have given me the honor of having started the thread with the highest reply to view ratio of 122 over 102? gives this thread a 12% reply rate. Most threads are less than 10%. Thank You! what an honor. :)

[Marlin]

:drama::badhorse::ot::hj::bla:

No, it relates, my wife's addiction was funded with tax dollars.....:) So there:dan_ban:

Plus, if Obama had his way, everyone would have access to the cash cow. Pharmacorp is the biggest proponent of universal health care, just think how many prescriptions for pain meds and psych meds there would be if everyone could go to the doctor whenever they wanted?!!!! This is the last thing that the alcohol industry and drug dealers want.

[Osteomata]

Look Marlin, I'm not gonna try to argue with you about the anecdotal and deeply personal situation involving your family. I disagree with you. It is a form of science. I have already stipulated to the overmedication of the country, but the overwhelming majority of scientists would classify psychiatry as medicine, and psychology as a form of science, particularly when given the choice of "is it science or is it art?" I think you play fast and loose with the facts, and draw broad conclusions from limited and disparate data, which might well characterize every discussion we have every had.

[Marlin]

Look Marlin, I'm not gonna try to argue with you about the anecdotal and deeply personal situation involving your family. I disagree with you. It is a form of science. I have already stipulated to the overmedication of the country, but the overwhelming majority of scientists would classify psychiatry as medicine, and psychology as a form of science, particularly when given the choice of "is it science or is it art?" I think you play fast and loose with the facts, and draw broad conclusions from limited and disparate data, which might well characterize every discussion we have every had.

Did you not read about how psychological disorders come to be? They aren't real, they are voted on by other psychologists and sponsored by the drug company. The disorder comes after the drug that is designed to treat it is approved. They then vote the disorder into the catalog, that way insurance can pay for it.

How is that science in any way shape or form? Its no more science than politics is.

I would like to see some stats from this overwhelming majority of scientists you seem to know...

I provided you with direct info from the drug manufacturer, they have no idea how the drug works, just that it does.

[Ebenezr]

Look Marlin, I'm not gonna try to argue with you about the anecdotal and deeply personal situation involving your family. I disagree with you. It is a form of science. I have already stipulated to the overmedication of the country, but the overwhelming majority of scientists would classify psychiatry as medicine, and psychology as a form of science, particularly when given the choice of "is it science or is it art?" I think you play fast and loose with the facts, and draw broad conclusions from limited and disparate data, which might well characterize every discussion we have every had.

Marlin!!! Are you doing this??!!?? SHAME on you. Don't you know you should never do this???? :mado: Drawing broad conclusions aye
and play fast and loose. Hah!

[Ebenezr]

Did you not read about how psychological disorders come to be? They aren't real, they are voted on by other psychologists and sponsored by the drug company. The disorder comes after the drug that is designed to treat it is approved. They then vote the disorder into the catalog, that way insurance can pay for it.

How is that science in any way shape or form? Its no more science than politics is.

I would like to see some stats from this overwhelming majority of scientists you seem to know...

I provided you with direct info from the drug manufacturer, they have no idea how the drug works, just that it does.


Yeah Osteo!! How come you don't understand this??? Don't you know the FDA is in bed with big corporations and thier psychiatrists ???!!!!!:yesgray: Yes and Stats we want stats! We want stats! We want Stats! right now!!! come buddy give em up right this minute!!!

[Marlin]

Marlin!!! Are you doing this??!!?? SHAME on you. Don't you know you should never do this???? :mado: Drawing broad conclusions aye
and play fast and loose. Hah!

:)

I think there are some fundamental differences between osteo and myself. I can only guess as to why.

I am critical, cynical, and assume the worst in people. I see conspiracy in everything. I assume that those who have the most to lose, will take the most extreme and unthinkable actions/lies to make sure they don't. Most of this is based on my experience in the real world, at home and abroad. I was never like this until I started moving around the country and meeting other than midwesterners. The predators in Norfolk and self-centered of So Cal kind of ruined me toward people in general. People in the world are not good, believe what you like, but the bad far outnumber the good, and the good will lose nine times out of ten. Furthermore, you can't lose assuming the worst, and you will never be disappointed. I also know that once you give someone power, it is virtually impossible to take it away. (government, CEOs, police and so on)

Disclaimer!!
These are just my thoughts based on our discussions here:
Osteo seems to see the best in people and assume everything is good unless proven otherwise. He seems to think that the systems work and there is no conspiracy in the upper echelons to make as much money as possible, or obtain as much power is possible.

If there was a stranger in my living room in the middle of the night, I would assume he is up to no good and he would get 3 shots in the chest. It seems that Osteo would assume it was a neighbor needing some sugar and offer him a cup of coffee.
I may be wrong about the intruder, but I would rather be wrong and alive then assume the best of the intruder and end up dead.

[Marlin]

Yeah Osteo!! How come you don't understand this??? Don't you know the FDA is in bed with big corporations and thier psychiatrists ???!!!!!:yesgray: Yes and Stats we want stats! We want stats! We want Stats! right now!!! come buddy give em up right this minute!!!

Wait, is that sarcasm? I am not being broad or judgmental on the psych thing, that is how the entire process works.

Google "American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders".

"Of the authors who selected and defined the DSM-IV psychiatric disorders, roughly half had had financial relationships with the pharmaceutical industry at one time, raising the prospect of a direct conflict of interest.[50] In 2005, then American Psychiatric Association President Steven Sharfstein released a statement in which he conceded that psychiatrists had "allowed the biopsychosocial model to become the bio-bio-bio model".[51]"

When you are talking about a 76 billion dollar a year industry and the go/no-go is on the shoulders of a dozen people, half of which are psychologists, not even doctors that can prescribe meds, its not a long shot to believe that there are bribes/incentives and so on. Matter of fact, I would say its impossible that there isn't bribery going on. What company would risk their share of 76 billion dollars based on the ungreased decision of a few uppity psychologists?

[Osteomata]

A self serving self portrait, and a gross mis-characterization of my views. Yes, Marlin, you are so right, I would offer them coffee. Moronic on its face. I think people are a wide mix of horrific and good, and sometimes at nearly the same time. What I try to do is avoid tinfoil hat conspiracy theories, gross assumptions about groups based upon anecdote and emotionally based confirmation bias, as well as the libertarian vice of assuming all government programs are evil, and equally evil. While maintaining skepticism about psychiatric medication, I reject your Tom Cruise endorsed views on the entire science of psychology and psychiatry. Go jump on an Oprah couch.
:)

I think there are some fundamental differences between osteo and myself. I can only guess as to why.

I am critical, cynical, and assume the worst in people. I see conspiracy in everything. I assume that those who have the most to lose, will take the most extreme and unthinkable actions/lies to make sure they don't. Most of this is based on my experience in the real world, at home and abroad. I was never like this until I started moving around the country and meeting other than midwesterners. The predators in Norfolk and self-centered of So Cal kind of ruined me toward people in general. People in the world are not good, believe what you like, but the bad far outnumber the good, and the good will lose nine times out of ten. Furthermore, you can't lose assuming the worst, and you will never be disappointed. I also know that once you give someone power, it is virtually impossible to take it away. (government, CEOs, police and so on)

Disclaimer!!
These are just my thoughts based on our discussions here:
Osteo seems to see the best in people and assume everything is good unless proven otherwise. He seems to think that the systems work and there is no conspiracy in the upper echelons to make as much money as possible, or obtain as much power is possible.

If there was a stranger in my living room in the middle of the night, I would assume he is up to no good and he would get 3 shots in the chest. It seems that Osteo would assume it was a neighbor needing some sugar and offer him a cup of coffee.
I may be wrong about the intruder, but I would rather be wrong and alive then assume the best of the intruder and end up dead.

[Ebenezr]

Wait, is that sarcasm? I am not being broad or judgmental on the psych thing, that is how the entire process works.

Google "American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders".

"Of the authors who selected and defined the DSM-IV psychiatric disorders, roughly half had had financial relationships with the pharmaceutical industry at one time, raising the prospect of a direct conflict of interest.[50] In 2005, then American Psychiatric Association President Steven Sharfstein released a statement in which he conceded that psychiatrists had "allowed the biopsychosocial model to become the bio-bio-bio model".[51]"

When you are talking about a 76 billion dollar a year industry and the go/no-go is on the shoulders of a dozen people, half of which are psychologists, not even doctors that can prescribe meds, its not a long shot to believe that there are bribes/incentives and so on. Matter of fact, I would say its impossible that there isn't bribery going on. What company would risk their share of 76 billion dollars based on the ungreased decision of a few uppity psychologists?


It is true we are at the mercy of a paid group of beaurocrats who decide what pills we can have in the US. Example: 2 months ago Darvoset was pulled from the markets. Supposedly because of some effect on the heart. It has been around for 50 years, generic as heck and a good pain reliever for many. Now users have to go fish or actually reach for some new drug that is on patent still and thaat will bring $$$ into the drug companies.

[Ebenezr]

Another non medical example: good bye incandescent light bulb...you were my friend for many years but some green headed liberal thinks you waste too much nrg.

[Osteomata]

I can completely understand your irritation, and agree that this is a silly government mandate, although it is not near as severe as you sentence suggests. The 2007 legislation, slated to phasing in next year, forced the light bulb industry to improve the efficiency of standard bulbs in a certain watt range, which has the effect of not outright banning, but sorta shoving the industry towards stopping production of incandescents in favor of other forms. I would much prefer a market solution.
If you are still buying incandescents, you are wasting money, regardless of your environmental views. CFLs use way less energy and last multiple times longer. In loose terms, a CFL is worth 40 regular bulbs. The real tech is in LEDs, but I am waiting for the maturation of that market before making those my replacement option. On my reef aquarium though, its all LEDs.


Another non medical example: good bye incandescent light bulb...you were my friend for many years but some green headed liberal thinks you waste too much nrg.

[Ebenezr]

I can completely understand your irritation, and agree that this is a silly government mandate, although it is not near as severe as you sentence suggests. The 2007 legislation, slated to phasing in next year, forced the light bulb industry to improve the efficiency of standard bulbs in a certain watt range, which has the effect of not outright banning, but sorta shoving the industry towards stopping production of incandescents in favor of other forms. I would much prefer a market solution.
If you are still buying incandescents, you are wasting money, regardless of your environmental views. CFLs use way less energy and last multiple times longer. In loose terms, a CFL is worth 40 regular bulbs. The real tech is in LEDs, but I am waiting for the maturation of that market before making those my replacement option. On my reef aquarium though, its all LEDs.

Thanks for the info. I dont really keep up with that. I know I don't care much for the new bulbs.:o

[Marlin]

What I try to do is avoid tinfoil hat conspiracy theories, gross assumptions about groups based upon anecdote and emotionally based confirmation bias,

I opened my statement about you with a disclaimer, based on your positions and statements in our discussions. Regardless of stats, you seem dead set on the fact that it isn't the individual's fault they are the way they are, that it is our fault (the taxpayer) and we are responsible to make sure they are taken care of, hence the idea that if someone broke into your home to steal your tv, you should help them out, its not their fault. That is how I see long term government aid, they are thieves, both the government and the people getting money.
The stats are not gross assumptions. When greater than half of your inmates and financial aid goes to a certain group of people, and that group of people only represents 20-25% of your total population, that is fact. It points that there is something wrong, and I hate to think its genetic(although looking at pro sports demographics, perhaps it is?:)), so it must be cultural. That is not emotional, it is not anecdotal (compile all the anecdotal evidence and it then becomes fact), it 100% fact. You choose to ignore it because for some reason you think that perhaps being labeled as bigot is the end of the world? People can't be held accountable for their actions? Sink or swim, its their choice.
As I said before, I assume the worst about people, then you can never be disappointed, only pleasantly surprised.

I am not sure how my statement is self serving, I pointed out that I am closed minded, paranoid and so on. Unless you are saying that it is a great thing...if so, come join the team, our ranks are growing very quickly:bgwb:

As for the bulbs, I kind of see it as the same concept of Hybrid cars. In the short term they are awesome. Save money on power and so on. Its the long term repercussions we aren't considering. We will have to create an entirely new government program to make sure people are recycling and that they are trained in the cleanup. Would it be child endangerment if I don't follow their rules? Check out the recommended clean up for a broken CFL...lol. Guess I better start saving all those glass jars I throw away:)

http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/cfl.asp
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=are-compact-fluorescent-lightbulbs-dangerous
(BTW, most of my lights are CFL in the house, screw the environment, I just wanted to save on my electricity bill...;))

A better option would be to force the industry to make the transformers for almost all devices more efficient. Those little black boxes we plug in to the wall are less than 17% efficient. Force that industry to make em 70% or better, roll the extra 1 dollar it would cost in using copper instead of aluminum or the like to the consumer and we will save millions of watt/hrs in power a year. No environmental issues, no negatives and so on.

[Osteomata]

A disclaimer does not automatically inoculate you against someone saying that your statements are either a gross distortion or offensive. You don't get a free ride for starting a silly comment with "this is only my opinion" or some variant of it. You have repeatedly conflated my opinions and positions with some sort of imagined strawman. It suggests that you are not willing to discuss or debate in good faith. If you continue to say "osteo believes x" when I have repeatedly told you no, I don't believe that ridiculous position, it is a product of your fevered imagination, then how can anyone possibly discuss this with you?

[Marlin]

A disclaimer does not automatically inoculate you against someone saying that your statements are either a gross distortion or offensive. You don't get a free ride for starting a silly comment with "this is only my opinion" or some variant of it. You have repeatedly conflated my opinions and positions with some sort of imagined strawman. It suggests that you are not willing to discuss or debate in good faith. If you continue to say "osteo believes x" I never used those words, I said "it seems that Osteo thinks.....a huge difference. One says I believe it is fact, the other says that based on the info available, this is my deduction)when I have repeatedly told you no, I don't believe that ridiculous position, it is a product of your fevered imagination, then how can anyone possibly discuss this with you?

The disclaimer was supposed to tell you that "based on your statements, this is what I think of you." It was supposed to spur you to defend your position with more than well written retorts pointing out how I am paranoid or generalizing. I was covering my bases to prevent the "your generalizing", "so you know me so well","so you speak for all of us now?" retorts that are typical from the liberals on this site....No offense intended, but its a fact. Based on your statements throughout, especially when you opened with "you should do some research and provide sources" and what not, yet I have done that, over and over again, yet you have not returned the favor. Instead, you have attempted to discredit my info as negligible, yet I got my info from the census bureau, the crime stats are form the DOJ site, the drugs stuff is from the manufacturer site and so on. These are not wiki sources, these are no kidding .gov sites. I have provided you with the facts, you have repeatedly stated your position, and your typical response is "your facts aren't real facts" It makes you look like a bleeding heart, coddling, liberal that does not want to face the real world. I would guess that you are not that since you seem to be an intelligent person, but your words and opinions sure make it look that way, much the same as mine made me out to be a bigot. A fairly close representation when I look at it from outside myself. I am ok with that. My opinions are based on my own experience in my world and based on the facts I have been presented with. I can't ask for anything more than that.
Making a decision based on any other form of info would be folly.

I am sorry, but this whole thread can be surmised in "Hope does not get stuff done". I have no hope or faith in those that have been given EVERY chance and opportunity, yet continue to screw up. I have no hope that a human will do whats best when tempted with large amounts money, so much money that it is incomprehensible. I have no faith that people will choose the right path, especially when it happens to be the harder path. Its not to say that any of these things are not possible, but since I tend to think of things as odds, I would like to bet on the horse with the best odds.

So I would fire one back over your bow about good faith debating, support your positions with facts, not a statement negating my facts, I have provided the sources, legit sources. It is you who is not arguing in good faith. I present the facts as facts, and my opinion as "this is my opinion" and you shut that down. What exactly are your rules in "good faith debating"?

[Scott Harness]

I have to agree with Marlin...most people suck and have no clue and if you can't wrap your head around conspiracy theories,remember the "Golden Rule"
He who has the gold makes the rules! money talks and bs walks:yesb:

[Marlin]

This email was going around...pretty much sums it up for me:


Put me in charge . . ..

Put me in charge of food stamps. I'd get rid of Lone Star cards; no cash for
Ding Dongs or Ho Ho's, just money for 50-pound bags of rice and beans,
blocks of cheese and all the powdered milk you can haul away. If you want
steak and frozen pizza, then get a job.

Put me in charge of Medicaid. The first thing I'd do is to get women
Norplant birth control implants or tubal ligations. Then, we'll test
recipients for drugs, alcohol, and nicotine and document all tattoos and
piercings. If you want to reproduce or use drugs, alcohol, smoke or get
tats and piercings, then get a job.

Put me in charge of government housing. Ever live in a military barracks?
You will maintain our property in a clean and good state of repair. Your
"home" will be subject to inspections anytime and possessions will be
inventoried. If you want a plasma TV or Xbox 360, then get a job and your
own place.

In addition, you will either present a check stub from a job each week or
you will report to a "government" job. It may be cleaning the roadways of
trash, painting and repairing public housing, whatever we find for you. We
will sell your 22 inch rims and low profile tires and your blasting stereo
and speakers and put that money toward the common good.

Before you write that I've violated someone's rights, realize that all of
the above is voluntary. If you want our money, accept our rules.. Before
you say that this would be "demeaning" and ruin their "self esteem,"
consider that it wasn't that long ago that taking someone else's money for
doing absolutely nothing was demeaning and lowered self esteem.

If we are expected to pay for other people's mistakes we should at least
attempt to make them learn from their bad choices. The current system
rewards them for continuing to make bad choices.

AND While you are on Government subsistence, you no longer can VOTE! Yes that is correct. For you to vote would be a conflict of interest. You will
voluntarily remove yourself from voting while you are receiving a Government
welfare check. If you want to vote, then get a job.
Now, if you have the guts - PASS IT ON...

[Osteomata]

Marlin,
In some cases I have questioned your facts, usually suggesting that you have cherry picked or exaggerated, but even that is not my primary objection. My repeated position is that you draw overbroad and distortive conclusions from limited data, and claim causes to behavior or national trends that are not necessarily correlated, much less proven. Without going back to the first page of posts, (where you may recall we were actually talking about tax rates and burden and I provided quite a number of links), just picking one minor example from recent comments: the "psychology is a BA not a BS" statement, turns out to be at best a half truth, given that it is a BS some places, BA others, and in some colleges they offer both options. I cop to being a civil libertarian, and caught between a respect for free market power and an belief in occasional market failure, as well as a concern about societal stability if we do not have a social safety net. If that is rampant bleeding heart progressive, then either you are dramatically shoving my stated positions to the left inside your head, or you do not actually know what a bleeding heart progressive leftist wants in the way of policy and legislation.

If the below poem sums up your beliefs rather than being merely a cutesy caricature of them, then I think we can pretty much home in on my problem with your perspective:

This email was going around...pretty much sums it up for me:

Put me in charge . . ..

Put me in charge of food stamps. I'd get rid of Lone Star cards; no cash for
Ding Dongs or Ho Ho's, just money for 50-pound bags of rice and beans,
blocks of cheese and all the powdered milk you can haul away. If you want
steak and frozen pizza, then get a job.
Time is money. You want all these free loaders to have a job, but you want to forcibly limit their ability to prepare meals quick by giving them some sort of conscript allowance of food. You have effectively mandated a much larger dedication of resources that works against employment. This is the least of it though...



Put me in charge of Medicaid. The first thing I'd do is to get women
Norplant birth control implants or tubal ligations. Then, we'll test
recipients for drugs, alcohol, and nicotine and document all tattoos and
piercings. If you want to reproduce or use drugs, alcohol, smoke or get
tats and piercings, then get a job.
Because government controlled and mandated sterilization is such a democratic ideal. And here I previously spoofed your views with what I thought at the time was an over the top suggestion that we should be testing them for nicotine and alcohol use as well. Turns out very little is beyond your dream of government control, so long as its applied to others. God forbid anyone should have a beer or a smoke. And yoru Cultural Purity police will no soubt have a nice set of approved piercing locations, and conduct adequate inspections that will not at all be intrusive and demeaning. Hey, maybe we can have the TSA do it? Cause travel is voluntary too! So why limit their porno scanners to those that can afford a plane ticket, lets get to strip searching the poor and photgraphing their low class tats! Oh yes of course the poem ends with a CYA "I'm not a complete tool because its all voluntary" sentence. Right. Freaking medical care when your child is sick, when you have an abscess, or food poisoning, cause having those things happen is all voluntary too. Your distrust of government evaporates when presented the opportunity to apply extreme authoritarian measures against the poor. How libertarian. Such concepts are exactly why libertarians have a bad name in some circles, the "I got mine" view of the world.


Put me in charge of government housing. Ever live in a military barracks?
You will maintain our property in a clean and good state of repair. Your
"home" will be subject to inspections anytime and possessions will be
inventoried. If you want a plasma TV or Xbox 360, then get a job and your
own place.
Ditto my last. Maybe you can come up with a cool name and set of uniforms for this inspection enforcement crew. Once again, where is your distrust of government? Did you not argue against fascist thugs or something when it came to CPS?


In addition, you will either present a check stub from a job each week or
you will report to a "government" job. It may be cleaning the roadways of
trash, painting and repairing public housing, whatever we find for you. We
will sell your 22 inch rims and low profile tires and your blasting stereo
and speakers and put that money toward the common good.
Pure cultural chauvinism tinged with race baiting. Let The State determine which legal products you may own, second class citizen! I have a series of detailed and convoluted regulations concerning all products, made after a multi-million dollar study of "things poor people waste money on." Your tires are 1/4 to narrow, and the shine on those rims exceed 25 lux, Officer, confiscate these so he has to buy new tires! That is how we teach the poor good choices!


Before you write that I've violated someone's rights, realize that all of
the above is voluntary. If you want our money, accept our rules.. Before
you say that this would be "demeaning" and ruin their "self esteem,"
consider that it wasn't that long ago that taking someone else's money for
doing absolutely nothing was demeaning and lowered self esteem.
CYA catchall justification for a style of government that i would hope most will find not merely uncomfortable, but reprehensible.



AND While you are on Government subsistence, you no longer can VOTE! Yes that is correct. For you to vote would be a conflict of interest. You will
voluntarily remove yourself from voting while you are receiving a Government
welfare check. If you want to vote, then get a job.
Now, if you have the guts - PASS IT ON...
Oh yes! Disenfranchisement! Maybe a poll tax and literacy tests formulated by a select committee in each neighborhood too? It all sounds so vaguely familiar. Maybe we will need a sort of community based organization to help enforce it. Might have to wear disguises though. But the policy is brilliant, because this way we make sure that the landed gentry can control all future laws as well!

You have jumped the shark.

[Marlin]

Now we are getting somewhere. Our current system is not working. I have been giving them money, in exchange for nothing, for generations, yet they are still poor. So obviously that does not work. My way, or rather, my proposed way is too extreme. I acknowledge that. When you barter, you never start at your lowest price, then you have nowhere to go. In the spirit of bipartisanship, you have to leave something to give. So, I will give up nicotine,alcohol, and tats tracking. In exchange, I want to limit what food they can buy. It takes 15-20 minutes to heat a frozen pizza. It takes about the same to cook some rice or beans and some beef or chicken. The very idea that I am limiting their employment time because I am taking away the convenience of prepared meals is in the least, ludicrous. Even if they work 9 hours a day, that leaves 15 left. 1.5 hours of total cooking for the meals is more than enough.
I am also willing to give up mandatory sterilization, but I will downgrade it to "incentive based contraception". You get your tubes tied, we give you 500 bucks. You get snipped, we give you 500 bucks.
As for the barracks, not gonna budge on that. You want to live under my roof, you can live by my rules. At this point, they have proved that they cannot make good decisions on their own and they need guidance. Remember, this is all for long term recipients. If you are down on your luck and lose your job or whatnot, you get 3-6 months to bounce back. We can negotiate the time length later.
You can do whatever you want, as long as you pave your own way. Don't expect others to do it for you. Just because you are in America does not mean you are entitled to all of the wants that are out there. It just means you are entitled to have the chance to earn those wants.
I am not racist, if you make them sell their 22s, which costs thousands by the way, you can take some of that money to give them OEM wheels and tires and still have cash left over. We will also take the "trailer trash" big mud tires and do the same deal. All is fair....although I have to admite I have never seen a "rent a mud tire" store, yet there are 3 "rent a wheel stores" within 10 miles of where I sit right now. I went in one last week to get a box to ship RickOKC a wheel. I had to dig through their boxes to find an 18" rim box. They had one. All the others were 20s or bigger. Go figure, anecdotal I suppose.
As far as government control, I realize that the government is not likely to ever give up its powers. You're right, its a fine line between regulation and tyranny. There would not be gangs going door to door inspecting your tats and whatnot. That would only be if you are long term aid recipient. There must be repercussions for your actions. We are not talking about a screw up one time, this is more along the lines of "3 strikes your out".
See, I am willing to compromise. I am sure we can meet in the middle somewhere, and we can all be unhappily happy.

[Ebenezr]

This email was going around...pretty much sums it up for me:


Put me in charge . . ..

Put me in charge of food stamps. I'd get rid of Lone Star cards; no cash for
Ding Dongs or Ho Ho's, just money for 50-pound bags of rice and beans,
blocks of cheese and all the powdered milk you can haul away. If you want
steak and frozen pizza, then get a job.

Put me in charge of Medicaid. The first thing I'd do is to get women
Norplant birth control implants or tubal ligations. Then, we'll test
recipients for drugs, alcohol, and nicotine and document all tattoos and
piercings. If you want to reproduce or use drugs, alcohol, smoke or get
tats and piercings, then get a job.

Put me in charge of government housing. Ever live in a military barracks?
You will maintain our property in a clean and good state of repair. Your
"home" will be subject to inspections anytime and possessions will be
inventoried. If you want a plasma TV or Xbox 360, then get a job and your
own place.

In addition, you will either present a check stub from a job each week or
you will report to a "government" job. It may be cleaning the roadways of
trash, painting and repairing public housing, whatever we find for you. We
will sell your 22 inch rims and low profile tires and your blasting stereo
and speakers and put that money toward the common good.

Before you write that I've violated someone's rights, realize that all of
the above is voluntary. If you want our money, accept our rules.. Before
you say that this would be "demeaning" and ruin their "self esteem,"
consider that it wasn't that long ago that taking someone else's money for
doing absolutely nothing was demeaning and lowered self esteem.

If we are expected to pay for other people's mistakes we should at least
attempt to make them learn from their bad choices. The current system
rewards them for continuing to make bad choices.

AND While you are on Government subsistence, you no longer can VOTE! Yes that is correct. For you to vote would be a conflict of interest. You will
voluntarily remove yourself from voting while you are receiving a Government
welfare check. If you want to vote, then get a job.
Now, if you have the guts - PASS IT ON...

And furthermore remember what John Smith said at Jamestown: "If you don't work you don't eat!!"

[Osteomata]

It is not "compromise" if you start your debate with utterly ludicrous positions and abandon some of the more absurd and tangential of them, leaving a massive core of crazy. You aren't compromising, you are insisting on gross authoritarianism, and continuing a view of those less fortunate (i.e., the poor, the unemployed, and the working poor) characterized by by disdain, disgust, and something close to apparent hatred. Further, you are actually making these programs unnecessarily complex, and therefor costly and prone to government abuse through petty beauracracy. Compared to your program, a straight and unrestricted cash payment would be vastly superior.

As for the time thing: Hey, guess what you can do while the pizza is heating? OTHER THINGS. Guess what you can do while cooking rice or beans or all the "from scratch" stuff you now require? A lot less. This is but a tiny example. The point is that things add up. The bus takes three or more times as long as the car due to wait time, transfers, and stops. Food is more expensive if you can't get to the big box stores and have to shop at the bodega. It takes up part of the day to get to the office where you have your brown shirts checking tats, drug testing, checking off pay stubs, and reviewing all those regulations to see if you are allowed to buy item X. Working a government road crew precludes the search for another job. All you have done with your proposals is put up barriers and inefficiency.

To pretend that the sum of your restrictions are merely reasonable is a joke. Fortunately, I don't need to "compromise" with you because your positions are unworkable and beyond unrealistic. I can worry about what actual policy and legislation is proposed and works it way to a floor vote. I can worry instead about the much more helpful discussion about important entitlement program reform, such as increasing the SS age, adjusting the SS annual cost of living formula, means testing Medicare, etc. These are realistic non-draconian ideas that are not part of someone's authoritarian the-poor-are-scum fantasy world.


Now we are getting somewhere. Our current system is not working. I have been giving them money, in exchange for nothing, for generations, yet they are still poor. So obviously that does not work. My way, or rather, my proposed way is too extreme. I acknowledge that. When you barter, you never start at your lowest price, then you have nowhere to go. In the spirit of bipartisanship, you have to leave something to give. So, I will give up nicotine,alcohol, and tats tracking. In exchange, I want to limit what food they can buy. It takes 15-20 minutes to heat a frozen pizza. It takes about the same to cook some rice or beans and some beef or chicken. The very idea that I am limiting their employment time because I am taking away the convenience of prepared meals is in the least, ludicrous. Even if they work 9 hours a day, that leaves 15 left. 1.5 hours of total cooking for the meals is more than enough.
I am also willing to give up mandatory sterilization, but I will downgrade it to "incentive based contraception". You get your tubes tied, we give you 500 bucks. You get snipped, we give you 500 bucks.
As for the barracks, not gonna budge on that. You want to live under my roof, you can live by my rules. At this point, they have proved that they cannot make good decisions on their own and they need guidance. Remember, this is all for long term recipients. If you are down on your luck and lose your job or whatnot, you get 3-6 months to bounce back. We can negotiate the time length later.
You can do whatever you want, as long as you pave your own way. Don't expect others to do it for you. Just because you are in America does not mean you are entitled to all of the wants that are out there. It just means you are entitled to have the chance to earn those wants.
I am not racist, if you make them sell their 22s, which costs thousands by the way, you can take some of that money to give them OEM wheels and tires and still have cash left over. We will also take the "trailer trash" big mud tires and do the same deal. All is fair....although I have to admite I have never seen a "rent a mud tire" store, yet there are 3 "rent a wheel stores" within 10 miles of where I sit right now. I went in one last week to get a box to ship RickOKC a wheel. I had to dig through their boxes to find an 18" rim box. They had one. All the others were 20s or bigger. Go figure, anecdotal I suppose.
As far as government control, I realize that the government is not likely to ever give up its powers. You're right, its a fine line between regulation and tyranny. There would not be gangs going door to door inspecting your tats and whatnot. That would only be if you are long term aid recipient. There must be repercussions for your actions. We are not talking about a screw up one time, this is more along the lines of "3 strikes your out".
See, I am willing to compromise. I am sure we can meet in the middle somewhere, and we can all be unhappily happy.

[Marlin]

We still have not addressed the important part. What are we going to do about the millions of illegals and generational poor. Throwing money at them does not help. It actually encourages them to do less.
As for SS and whatnot, I agree, we have already established that, but that has nothing to do with the poor. SS is supposed to be a guarantee in exchange for a lifetime of payments of which I have no choice but to make. Those who do not contribute to SS should not be able to withdraw from SS.

I took a minute to think about what you wrote. About how my proposed (well, not mine, just an entertaining email that highlights the frustration of some fiscally conservative American taxpayers) would be too expensive. Does that mean you think the stimulus bill and bail outs should have been scrapped? We could have given every taxpaying citizen 200-500K dollars. That would have solved our entire economy problem! All homes could be owned or at least not foreclosed, new car sales would skyrocket, those in "dead" areas would have the money to move and so on. Instead, we gave it to DB car companies who couldn't manage their way out a paper bag, and to banks that are...well....thieves. It went to feed the red tape state government monsters. I am now on the hook for 50K in taxes just to pay off the deficit, and I have not a damn thing to show for it.

[Marlin]

On lighter note, but just as serious, what is your take on all of our "wars". Those things are sucking down some bucks as well. Just curious on your thoughts.

[Osteomata]

We still have not addressed the important part. What are we going to do about the millions of illegals and generational poor. Throwing money at them does not help. It actually encourages them to do less.

Our discussions probably suffer from the rapid and frequent subject changes, and I doubt bringing the highly contentious issue of immigration back into the picture will do anything but obscure the already wide subject matter. As to generational poor, back in the early portions of this thread I mentioned that the national poverty rate has fell steadily, and did so during a period in which welfare type programs were coming into effect and expanding. IIRC, the current poverty percentage has held steady at 14% for several decades. It has not worsened, so it is arguable that this is not, inf fact, the important part of the economic debate surrounding entitlements. I still contend that programs aimed at the poor pale in comparison to the problems of the elderly, SS and Medicare. You are nibbling at the edges.


I took a minute to think about what you wrote. About how my proposed (well, not mine, just an entertaining email that highlights the frustration of some fiscally conservative American taxpayers) would be too expensive. Does that mean you think the stimulus bill and bail outs should have been scrapped? We could have given every taxpaying citizen 200-500K dollars. That would have solved our entire economy problem! All homes could be owned or at least not foreclosed, new car sales would skyrocket, those in "dead" areas would have the money to move and so on. Instead, we gave it to DB car companies who couldn't manage their way out a paper bag, and to banks that are...well....thieves. It went to feed the red tape state government monsters. I am now on the hook for 50K in taxes just to pay off the deficit, and I have not a damn thing to show for it.

I don't get your math. Total bail out plus stimulus is $4.6T, of which about $2.6 has been recovered as it was provided in the way of temp loans. Even if I assume ALL of it was a total give away/loss, that adds up to $15K per person, but I think $6,500 is more realistic. Not a trivial amount, but perhaps you can elaborate on how you achieve a result 30 times the one my calculator is giving me.

My view on the bailouts: I am worried about the moral hazard of private profit with public risk, but confess that the issue is so complex and beyond my limited understanding of the economics involved. After some discussions with a number of very smart and conservative people connected in some way to the issues, I was surprised by their vehement support for the bailouts as absolutely necessary in a time of total crisis in order to avert global economic meltdown, despite their otherwise fiscal conservative nature.

As to the stimulus, I am agnostic. I just don't know. I have tried to understand some of the principles involved, but economics written by economists bores the tears out of me, and I have had to get it second hand from those who can make it accessible. Suffice to say that I have enough doubt about the issues to respect the Keynesians that insist that deficit spending during recession is a rational course, but worry very much that we will lack the maturity to offset it with surpluses during boom times. I think the safest bet is that whatever long term fiscal package that we end up with, it does not entail big cuts or tax increases until 2013 so as not to further endanger the very fragile recovery.

[Scott Harness]

IMHO...there hasn't been a "real" war since WWII everything since then has been a police action, sticking our nose in other countries busness...or "conspiracy alert"...the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX making money...which is good for the economy:confused:
Don't get me started LOL Look at a map of our bases. We have circled the Middle East. When push comes to shove, WE have our hands on the spigot!
We still have bases in Japan and Germany...WHY!:confused:
Why do we drag these things out? If we really wanted to WIN,We could blow these countries off the face of the earth.:confused: sad but true

[Osteomata]

That's what you call a lighter note? heh. Short version:
An extraordinary waste of national blood and treasure that has screwed us economically and drastically hurt our future foreign relations for decades to come. If we had set out to custom design a foreign policy with the specific goal of turning Iran into the regional dominant power while simultaneously expanding the pool of militant islamicists and terrorists, you could find no better policy than the one we pursued during the first decade of this millennium. In this area, I am distinctly influenced by a paleo conservative philosophy.
On lighter note, but just as serious, what is your take on all of our "wars". Those things are sucking down some bucks as well. Just curious on your thoughts.

[Marlin]

IIRC, the current poverty percentage has held steady at 14% for several decades. I believe that number only applies to registered US citizens. Does it take into account the non-legals?I still contend that programs aimed at the poor pale in comparison to the problems of the elderly, SS and Medicare. You are nibbling at the edges.
These edges I am nibbling at are going to become the entire pie here in about 30 years. Perhaps its time to not plan ahead vice knee jerking when its too late.


I don't get your math. Total bail out plus stimulus is $4.6T, of which about $2.6 has been recovered as it was provided in the way of temp loans. Even if I assume ALL of it was a total give away/loss, that adds up to $15K per person, but I think $6,500 is more realistic. Not a trivial amount, but perhaps you can elaborate on how you achieve a result 30 times the one my calculator is giving me.
You are right, I used 10^15 vice 10^12. I used 136 million tax returns, based on the 2008 data on the IRS site. That was the newest they had.
My view on the bailouts: I am worried about the moral hazard of private profit with public risk, but confess that the issue is so complex and beyond my limited understanding of the economics involved. After some discussions with a number of very smart and conservative people connected in some way to the issues, I was surprised by their vehement support for the bailouts as absolutely necessary in a time of total crisis in order to avert global economic meltdown, despite their otherwise fiscal conservative nature.
My concern is, we had to put down trillions to keep these companies alive, because they are too big to fail. Yet they are still too big to fail, as a matter of fact, some of them got even bigger. What happens next time? I guess we are the safety net for big companies? Did we learn anything?
As to the stimulus, I am agnostic. I just don't know. I have tried to understand some of the principles involved, but economics written by economists bores the tears out of me, and I have had to get it second hand from those who can make it accessible. Suffice to say that I have enough doubt about the issues to respect the Keynesians that insist that deficit spending during recession is a rational course, but worry very much that we will lack the maturity to offset it with surpluses during boom times. I think the safest bet is that whatever long term fiscal package that we end up with, it does not entail big cuts or tax increases until 2013 so as not to further endanger the very fragile recovery.

*sigh*, I too get lost in the myriad of "sciences" involved. I sometimes look at a dollar bill, and realize that it is really worth nothing. At the end of the day, it has no value. Its much the same as a Babe Ruth rookie card. Beckett can say its worth 1 million dollars, but its really only worth what someone will pay for it. That is all anything is ever worth. So what happens if the world stops accepting the dollar bill? We keep printing more, that makes it worth even less. How is printing more money the solution? Spending money we don't have only postpones the inevitable.

I actually have to go back to work tomorrow,so I will have much less time to get on here than I did the last few days:( I know we have jumped around a lot, but it gave me something to do, something that is free. It also prevents me from doing something dumb to the RS, like drilling holes in the roof for a roof rack.:smack:

[djvx]

Marlin, you are a great American and I would stand by you in battle anyday to save this Country from these vermin who are trying to destroy it.:yes:

[Marlin]

Well, since its xmas eve, we are on a "light duty" holiday routine. (for those unaware, I am on deployment on my way to the Gulf for "wars" that have nothing to do with us) I reread this entire thread. Kind of neat to see some of the thoughts coming true. Riots around the world, violence nigh here in our own land.
Batten down the hatches indeed.

[bearandbee]

Ron Paul....ron Paul.....ron Paul!

[Y33TREKker]

...Kind of neat to see some of the thoughts coming true. Riots around the world, violence nigh here in our own land.
Batten down the hatches indeed.
Kind of neat? Wars that have nothing to do with us? Maybe it's just me, but I have to say that hearing those kinds of statements expressed by a member of my nations' military doesn't necessarily instill confidence.

[Marlin]

It is neat, things we argued about a long time ago are now coming true. Tell me how any of these wars have anything to do with us. That is why Ron Paul has a lot of support in the military. Just because I am active duty does not mean I have to believe in every operation we undertake. As a matter of fact, the higher your rank, the more you should question the orders, after all, my oath says I am sworn to defend the Constitution as well. Didn't see empire building or world policing anywhere in there....

[fuzzy]

We, as military professionals, must be detached from the politics of the day that call upon us to do their bidding. We can't take sides and when we do, the only honorable thing is to resign or retire from service. You folks (yes, you... we're the other 1%) are the ones responsible for putting us in this position. You decide to send us to war by your vote and decide not to pay for those wars by your vote. We are both cynically amused and outright frustrated that it is taking you so long to learn the lesson that sacrifice is required of the entire nation to engage in warfare. An all-volunteer force does not abdicate you from your responsibility to contribute to the cause. That means giving yourself a decade-long tax cut while we fight 2+ wars is outrageous to us. We'll do the fighting (over and over again until we're done, dead, or incapacitated), but you'll need to cut spending AND raise revenue in order to pay us, equip us, sustain us... and to take care of our long-term needs after those wars are over. That's the deal for a volunteer force. Don't like it? Reinstate the draft. "Thank you for your service" is a nice gesture, but what we really want is the nation to honor its commitment to us and pay its bills (with cash, not credit cards).

Am I feeling smug, self-righteous, and preachy? Yep. And that's probably because I've decided to retire and take a side.

[Marlin]

Well said Fuzzy. As a matter of fact, if you had service members not questioning what we are doing, I would be scared, especially the senior ones that have some time on the pond. Are we supposed to be nothing more than robots? Machines trained to kill without reason? I think not, which is why retirement is looking more and more appealing. Our politicians are out of control, and our civilians are even more so for not caring. Am I cynical, you betcha, I see people whining about having to piss in a cup to get free money in Florida, yet they have no problem with double deployments for service members in support of a cause that was finished years ago.

[Y33TREKker]

It was just that your comments could be interpreted in more ways than one Marlin. One way it could have been interpreted was that you thought it was "kind of neat" that riots were occurring around the world. As a member of the military after all, it has to be admitted that riots around the world translates into possible job security for you.

And to think that the wars in question in the gulf have nothing to do with "us" to me personally seems to be completely ignoring past U.S. administration and/or business policies and actions that have domino'd into the situations that have played a part in those very same wars today. If members of the military are not conscious of those realities and take that ignorance into the "homelands" of the people who live there, it becomes no wonder why people in various other parts of the world hate us at this point. It's just another version of the "think global, act local" philosophy.

As for the people of the U.S. voting for war, it's always been my understanding that is the responsibility of congress. But considering that government in general seems to be more for itself and big business special interests these days (at the expense of the 99%), it becomes a very convenient rationalization for people who have "volunteered" to suck on their individual portion of that government teet (as a member of the military) as they conveniently overlook what their particular job title actually means on a personal conscientious level in the "homelands" of others.

So before you two continue impugning the honor of others to justify your own decisions and current situations, you might want to stop and consider for a moment that there are those who actually questioned the military on a pragmatic level regarding some of the things it represents (besides what is promoted in their tv commercials) BEFORE making the decision to join so as not to have to face the possibility of later deciding they'd had enough and only THEN resigning as the only "honorable" thing to do.

[fuzzy]

Y33TREKker added to ignore list for being a troll.

[Ldub]

Y33TREKker added to ignore list for being a troll.

:laughing:

you site supporters just don't understand him...:_confused

[Y33TREKker]

Y33TREKker added to ignore list for being a troll.

:laughing:

you site supporters just don't understand him...:_confused
Ironic and I must say excessively convenient how you two can imply a lack of understanding by others while at the same time apparently feeling no need to even attempt to do so yourself...in dub's case especially since the topic he felt it necessary to bring up (even though it has nothing to do with the current topic of discussion) has been explained to him ad nauseum.

The same principle, I suspect, that makes the troubles around the world Marlin was originally discussing so perpetual in nature.

[crager34]

Good read.

Seriously.

[VXR]

:laughing:

you site supporters just don't understand him...:_confused

hope it did not take you all day to think of that one:rollb2: