Kilby is in business - Who wants their skid plates?! [Text View]

JHarris1385

10/26/2011, 10:08 AM

I have been in contact with Kilby since the first sale here of some of the skid plates. Since then there has been a change in owners and the new owner is willing to make some of these plates again.

He has asked me to see who would be interested in ordering some of these. As you can assume he would like and or needs a good group of confirmed orders in order for this to work for him and us.

I figure there has been quite a large number of new members since the last posts who may be interested and maybe some other members like I who did not order previously for various reason but interested now.

I forget whom ordered them last time and who has picture of them, but if you do, would you mind posting them in this thread? These plates are beefy, thick and really essential and or superior to the Trooper plates as this is a full length plate.

The price is not 100% set but I would assume it would be near the previous price, however he did mention that the more interested the lower it would obviously be for us all.

This is a great opportunity, and potentially the last time they will be offered.

http://www.kilbyenterprises.com/index.htm

Breezy

10/26/2011, 10:14 AM

I'd be interested in a set POSSIBLY.

VXorado

10/26/2011, 10:36 AM

Here's a pic of the kilby's in action on steel bender. They're a great investment as they protect everything back to the rear driveshaft.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3260/DSC_0362.JPG

Riff Raff

10/26/2011, 01:04 PM

Too bad you missed out on Big Swede's kilby he had for sale (never used).

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=21117

VT-Maverick currently has one un-mounted, but I think he's saving it for re-installation on his next VX.

I was the catalyst brain child (it was my original idea) for the belly-pan Kilby's, and I personally solitated/coordinated directly with Brad Kilby (long distance via E-Mail on a daily basis) for many months to get them designed/built, and coordinated the donor VX to be used as the original template. There were countless times that Brad Kilby was ready to throw-in-the-towel and quit the orginal design project due to design/fitment frustration and cost over-runs, but I continually prodded Brad Kilby to keep going to complete the mission. It was a massive undertaking project for both myself and Kilby Enterprises.

I further coordinated the original "group buy" which also proved to be a challenge in itself in getting the required number of people here on VX.Info to commit to purchase. Purchased as a single buyer, the Kilby's are very expensive near the $800 price mark (but worth every penny).

Eventhough Kilby Enterprises has changed owner's, I knew the original CAD software drawings would be retained by the new follow-on owner for any possible future sales to VX'ers. Too much time and money went into R&D to simply destroy the original CAD data/drawings. I'm glad to see the new owner's enthusiasm to still try and market the Kilby's for us VX'ers!!!

:bgwb:

VX KAT

10/26/2011, 01:15 PM

some of the one's that bought them first time around....
VX KAT
VT_Mav
VXorado
VXlover
RiffRaff
BigSwede
I think there were a few more.

If possible, may want to ask Kilby to try to countersink some of the bolts....my mechanic was surprised they weren't.

Here's pics when newly installed: these pics are in my gallery.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC_0866.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC_08651.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC_0873.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC_0871.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC_0870.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC_0864.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC_0863.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC_0862.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC_0858.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC_0855.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC_0844.JPG

bearandbee

10/26/2011, 05:31 PM

Finally something to keep the oil off my driveway!

JHarris1385

10/26/2011, 08:37 PM

So is that TWO possibles?

vt_maverick

10/27/2011, 07:44 AM

Sounds like zero in the hand, two in the bush to me. ;)

Scott Larson

10/27/2011, 07:55 AM

My concern is the royalties I would have to pay to Riff...:bwgy:

vxcp

11/02/2011, 01:07 PM

Interested. Would like to see some or all of the bolts countersunk if possible.

AlexVX

11/04/2011, 04:53 PM

Possibly interested - need to make budget thus need better idea on price.

iott2551

11/04/2011, 10:23 PM

possibly interested depending on cost.

JoFotoz

11/05/2011, 12:48 AM

OK...I'll either be shot-down..or its good info... ?

With all due respect to the time and effort put in to
getting the Kilby under armour/armor made.....

...its OVERKILL.

The bolts are gonna get F'd up...destroyed...it retains heat..BIG TIME..
...and its WAY more than ya need.....for the VX capabilities.

Your LOW point...is the crux of the matter....:eek:

Having wheeled as a relative newbie for several years...
.....and beyond that, done trails that VX's are not s'posed to do...
........many of them!

This is wasted $$$'s

$78 on old 94/6 (IIRC) Trooper skid plates that BOLT ON...

...nuff said.

I absolutely applaud the time and effort put in to this project...

...but...basic works.

JMHO

jo

..

VXorado

11/05/2011, 01:54 AM

With all due respect to the time and effort put in to
getting the Kilby under armour/armor made.....

...its OVERKILL.

The bolts are gonna get F'd up...destroyed...it retains heat..BIG TIME..
...and its WAY more than ya need.....for the VX capabilities.

I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit on this Jo.

The lowest bolts at the front crossmember are counter sunk, the other round head bolts toward the back are very hard to scrape if you look at the angles of the skid plates and the OEM bolts in the middle crossmember should not be installed at all.

I've also heard the disscussion on retaining heat but I haven't had any experience with it. My VX was the exact same heat with & without the skid plates this summer (I tested it ;)). Also my floor seat bolt was super hot from the tranny with or without the skid plates installed.

For most trails the skid plates are overkill & they'll add some nice weight to the VX but I'm still happy to have them & would recommend them to anyone. The piece of mind that my skid plates are fully protecting the belly of the VX is priceless. Also the front skid plate acts as a water/mud shield to protect your alternator through water crossings.

Have I really needed my Kilby's on a trail yet? No, but I plan on trying hard enough trails next year once all my mods are done to fully utilize the skid plates.

For those that go offroading once and a while, the kilby skid plates are too much.

VX KAT

11/05/2011, 02:10 AM

Possibly interested - need to make budget thus need better idea on price.

possibly interested depending on cost.

The group buy was $750 for the powdercoat ones, think it was $50 or $100 less for the raw steel version. They weigh 150 lbs total for your reference, so shipping will be steep, maybe figure $75?
So like Riff said, they're in the $800 ballpark. You can probably plan/budget for something in that neighborhood.

OK...I'll either be shot-down..or its good info... ?

With all due respect to the time and effort put in to
getting the Kilby under armour/armor made.....

...its OVERKILL.

The bolts are gonna get F'd up...destroyed...it retains heat..BIG TIME..
...and its WAY more than ya need.....for the VX capabilities.

Your LOW point...is the crux of the matter....:eek: EXACTLY!

Having wheeled as a relative newbie for several years...
.....and beyond that, done trails that VX's are not s'posed to do...
........many of them!

..

Jo - I thought for sure the Kilby's were RETAINING HEAT->contributing to overheating. Talked w/my off-road mechanic guy He felt strongly they are not contributing in any way. I've had them on full time for 19 months without any temp issues whatsoever, and I've had many hot hot AZ days. So he feels since this is a new problem, they aren't retaining heat or causing my overheating.
It has to be something ELSE causing it. (Thus I'm getting a new aluminum radiator...just a few more weeks!)

Also, my transmission housing/center console and hump get so freakin' hot after like 2-4 hrs of driving, again, thought for sure it was caused by the skids retaining heat.....but after I posted about it, many other owners without skids said they had the same occur.....:_thinking

Overkill? Maybe a bit, but MOST (but not all) VXs that go off road and do some of the extreme trails you've done...are LIFTED!!! Since I'm not lifted, and will never be...."my LOWPOINT is the crux of the matter"......Exactly! So......there's a place for some strong steel plates on my belly! ;)

But really, it just depends on whatever the individuals' needs are.

Need I say more about extreme?...LOL :p
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/photokat4/moab_152.jpg

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/photokat4/DSC_0230.jpg

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/photokat4/DSC_0349.jpg

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/photokat4/PICT0509.jpg

Triathlete

11/05/2011, 11:12 AM

Do people really take these things on "extreme" trails?:bwgy:

I will one day get a skid plate fabbed that is somewhere between the trooper and kilby plates....cover everything vital but minimalist. Of course that will be sometime after that d44 does under the front end...so, don't hold your breath!:rotate::laughing:

Riff Raff

11/05/2011, 03:33 PM

Excellent discussion. Are the Kilby's overkill??? You, bet; too the max (it's frickin' armour plate for Christ's sake)!!! Heck, the Kilby's have the ability to support the entire weight of the VX on a boulder centered underneath the VX and acting like a teder-toder without causing damage to critical drivetrain components.

As "VX-KAT" and "VXorado" beautifully illustrated the heat issue is non-related, and the total peace of mind of having your entire undercarriage protected front-to-back is absolutely priceless, especially if you are non-lifted at OEM stock height. Further, having the Kilby's on your VX greatly enhance the "re-sale value" of your VX and will easily up the asking sale price by about a grand (due to the have's & and the have not theory).

For example, the Kilby's are like having an option on a vehicle eventhough that option may never be used during the ownership of the vehicle.

Suppose the following:

A. VX with or without A/C. Yes; we know that A/C is a "standard option" on the VX, but if it wasn't then you'd still like to have it eventhough you may not ever use it.

B. VX with or without Bumper Winch. Yes; the VX never came with an OEM factory Bumper Winch option, but if it did then we'd still want it eventhough we may not ever use it. Heck, how many times have you seen vintage 4x4 trucks on the street that had a factory WARN Bumper Winch and the cable-coils are still perfectly aligned because the Bumper Winch had never been used during the entire lifetime of the truck???

C. VX with or without Kilby's. Yes; the VX never came with full belly-pan skidplates as an OEM factory option, but if it did then we'd still want it eventhough we may not ever use it.

Does the likelyhood exist that the Kilby's will never be used to their full potential during the lifetime of the VX??? Yes. However; by damned, like A/C and the Front Bumper Winch example above, I still want the Kilby's because it is available as an option to the VX!!! Let's say you see two(2) identical same-colored VX's with exact same mileage on a Dealership Sales lot that the only differance being is that one VX has the Kilby's and the other VX does not. Chances are great that you'll purchase the VX that had the Kilby's, rather than the VX that did not. 'Nuff said.

:bgwb:

Triathlete

11/05/2011, 03:49 PM

On other side, they could also de-value the VX in the buyers mind. Someone who would spend that kind of coin on a non factory mod would probably have done so for a reason...how hard was this VX really used?

JoFotoz

11/05/2011, 04:30 PM

I am somewhat amazed, but very happy to hear
that some testing seems to show that the heat issue...

...is a non issue :thumbup:

I think Billy summed it up..something in-between the Trooper bare bones approach
( which does seem to work perfectly well when lifted) and the full Kilby sheathing would be the ideal set up.

And yes Sue, I think your standard ride height probably benefits from the full coverage ,
however other non lifted VX's ( Mr G !!) do gnarly trails without ...

In most cases,I would spend the money on a lift FIRST .

Of course a good spotter helps more than anything!

jo

JoFotoz

11/05/2011, 05:53 PM

BTW Sue...thanks for posting those pics !!
.
.

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/photokat4/moab_152.jpg

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/photokat4/DSC_0230.jpg

I am now more convinced than ever that I need to get longer rear trailing arms.
The back tire in both shots looks like its trying to jump into the front seats....:eek:

jo

BigSwede

11/05/2011, 06:14 PM

People's tolerance for trail damage varies...some shrug and move on, others can't stand dings to their baby. For the latter crowd, these skids are recommended.

Ldub

11/05/2011, 07:19 PM

however other non lifted VX's ( Mr G !!) do gnarly trails without ...

In most cases,I would spend the money on a lift FIRST .

Of course a good spotter helps more than anything!

jo

That and the liberal application of many straps, & the cumulative piling of what must be by now, literally TONS of rocks...:laughing:

JoFotoz

11/05/2011, 07:48 PM

LMAO!!

That and the liberal application of many straps, & the cumulative piling of what must be by now, literally TONS of rocks...:laughing:

..no kidding!!!

:_brickwal

jo

mechafroggie

01/16/2012, 08:41 PM

I might be interested in these (with the powder-coating), depending on price and date available.

tom4bren

01/17/2012, 05:46 AM

VX with or without Kilby's. Yes; the VX never came with full belly-pan skidplates as an OEM factory option, but if it did then we'd still want it eventhough we may not ever use it.

'Splain to me why you would want to carry around 300lbs of steel that will never be used!!!

I'm not 'dissing' the Kilby's. They are a great product ... for the right application ... but not for re-sale value. Just trying to figure out your logic. Why should 40lbs of unsprung weight be avoided at all cost but that much sprung weight is OK?

Ldub

01/17/2012, 06:16 AM

'Splain to me why you would want to carry around 300lbs of steel that will never be used!!!

I'm not 'dissing' the Kilby's. They are a great product ... for the right application ... but not for re-sale value. Just trying to figure out your logic. Why should 40lbs of unsprung weight be avoided at all cost but that much sprung weight is OK?

You should now be expecting a treatise on rotational mass/inertia/braking ability/bearing loads/overworked suspension components(shocks esp)...:rolleyesg..:smilewink

tom4bren

01/17/2012, 06:49 AM

You're a fine one to talk. Aren't you carrying around 300lbs of zombie & skull sh......tuff on yours.

Wait - let me help you out - :slap:

Ldub

01/17/2012, 07:47 AM

You're a fine one to talk. Aren't you carrying around 300lbs of zombie & skull sh......tuff on yours.

Wait - let me help you out - :slap:

Wasn't disagreeing with you, just telling you what's likely coming next...:laughing:

And they're called "tools & spares"...not zombie sh...tuff...:_wrench:

And I hadn't used the word "treatise" in a long while...:rotate:

VXorado

01/17/2012, 08:53 AM

Also the front skid plate acts as a water/mud shield to protect your alternator through water crossings.

'Splain to me why you would want to carry around 300lbs of steel that will never be used!!!

This seems like this belongs in one of my threads, the Kilbys are a 300lb alternator protector required with the snorkel kit :laughing:

VX KAT

01/17/2012, 09:07 AM

This seems like this belongs in one of my threads, the Kilbys are a 300lb alternator protector required with the snorkel kit :laughing:

and hey, it's only 150 lbs...not 300!......makes it much better, dontcha think?

tom4bren

01/17/2012, 09:50 AM

Wasn't disagreeing with you, just telling you what's likely coming next...:laughing:

And they're called "tools & spares"...not zombie sh...tuff...:_wrench:

And I hadn't used the word "treatise" in a long while...:rotate:

I know ... but I hadta mis-use whatcha said as a segway to rip on your skull/zombie motif.

and hey, it's only 150 lbs...not 300!......makes it much better, dontcha think?

Ida know. I hefted Ashley's before install. I think I hurt meself lifting one of the boxes so ...

vt_maverick

01/17/2012, 07:43 PM

Tom keep in mind that we replaced the OEM front skid plate and cross member so the Kilby's aren't a direct weight add - maybe more like 100-125 lbs.

tom4bren

01/18/2012, 09:30 AM

Tom keep in mind that we replaced the OEM front skid plate and cross member so the Kilby's aren't a direct weight add - maybe more like 100-125 lbs.

ROFL - That crossmember & front skid combined weigh 7 lbs max. Yer still talkin 143 lbs of added weight.

Again, I'm not dissing Kilby or any of you that bought the skids. I think they're great. If it weren't for my diff drops, I woulda considered it. I've been hung up on a diff before & completely crushed my oil pan before (neither on the VX thank goodness).

However, I just can't wrap my mind around 150 lbs of skids & another 100 lbs of winch that'll never be used. Get them to use them ... not for show.

vt_maverick

01/18/2012, 09:35 AM

Still don't see how it's that big a deal - you add that much weight by adding a single passenger and the VX doesn't cough up blood. And the rated max load weight is way higher than 150-200 lbs. I never noticed a significant performance difference after I added them.

tom4bren

01/18/2012, 09:59 AM

It's not. I'm just playing 'devil's advocate'.:evil:

pointup

01/18/2012, 04:49 PM

How difficult is it when you have to get your vx maintained?

VX KAT

01/18/2012, 06:01 PM

How difficult is it when you have to get your vx maintained?

There's a cut out for the oil filter. I had all my fluids changed in the tranny/diffs/tx case before I installed the skids, so I'm good for a long time.

vt_maverick

01/18/2012, 06:34 PM

My mechanic had to remove the skids on my old VX a couple times to do repairs / diagnostics, and he said it wasn't a big deal if you have the right tools.

Ldub

01/18/2012, 06:43 PM

My mechanic had to remove the skids on my old VX a couple times to do repairs / diagnostics, and he said it wasn't a big deal if you have the right tools.

Like, uhhh...wrenches & shtuff?...:smilewink...:_wrench:...:laughing:

I'm sorry Mav, I tried not to do it...:flower:

vt_maverick

01/18/2012, 06:56 PM

The countersunk bolts require a square bit, not sure what you call it exactly, but it's not something your average Joe might have in his tool box. The other issue is that the middle plate is REALLY heavy so it helps immensely if you have another person to hold the plate up while you turn the bolts (ask Tom).

Ldub

01/18/2012, 07:26 PM

tom4bren

01/19/2012, 06:33 AM

The other issue is that the middle plate is REALLY heavy so it helps immensely if you have another person to hold the plate up while you turn the bolts (ask Tom).

Nope - ask Ash. He's the one that ended up with the smashed finger.:)

VXorado

01/19/2012, 08:33 AM

After having a skid plate drop on my chest, I found a larger style floor jack makes the install/uninstall very easy if you get the jack centered on the plate.

Get them to use them ... not for show.

I'm tempted to take some pics of my skid plates... I could see some definite scrap-age in several places after my 2009 Moab trip. I really got the skid plate to protect the low hanging transfer case, its the last thing you need to smash across a rock while on a 4x4 trail.

tom4bren

01/19/2012, 08:41 AM

After having a skid plate drop on my chest, I found a larger style floor jack makes the install/uninstall very easy if you get the jack centered on the plate.

That's how I smashed his finger.

I'm tempted to take some pics of my skid plates... I could see some definite scrap-age in several places after my 2009 Moab trip. I really got the skid plate to protect the low hanging transfer case, its the last thing you need to smash across a rock while on a 4x4 trail.

Don't want no pictures of your nether reagions

We're on the same page.

VXorado

01/19/2012, 02:25 PM

We're on the same page.

...maybe the same page of different books :p

vxcp

01/24/2012, 07:05 PM

So do we have enough for the order?

JHarris1385

01/25/2012, 06:52 AM

Do we have at least 10?

budwrman

05/23/2012, 01:27 PM

Thanks a lot for quick response.

Prcdpnknova

07/06/2012, 02:01 AM

I'm interested. Just need to find out the price...

VX KAT

07/06/2012, 11:16 AM

I'm interested. Just need to find out the price...

I'd guessing they'd be around the same when we got them the first time around on the "group buy", the powder coated ones were $750, bare metal were $700. IIRC they gave us free shipping on this group buy. They weight 150 lbs total for the 3 pieces.

Prcdpnknova

07/06/2012, 12:29 PM

I completely agree with Jo... in that I think these are overkill for the majority of VX's including myself and that we could get buy with the trooper parts. Having said that, since I'm not lifted and am staying at stock height like Sue, I would only purchase for peace of mind. (yours sure have taken a beating Kat!!, Nice!) Especially since I plan on going to Moab for the first time plus the fact Im camping and rock climbing (not with vehicles... With my body...) constantly. So I'd like a set.

AM I THE 10th PERSON!?!? Haha

twalker920

07/06/2012, 01:10 PM

VX KAT

07/06/2012, 01:21 PM

I hear the Trooper ones do fit well...except I haven't been able to find any and I've called all the salvage yards in the Front Range of Colorado. I installed the nice front skid plate that Mile High VX gave me...just center and rear is needed now. Anyone know of a solid source for the Trooper ones?

I put together this list of salvage yards in the US that had a VX, and another with a Rodeo. It's about 15 months old, so some won't be accurate I'm sure. But since Troopers are so plentiful in salvage yards, I bet these same yards will have a ton of them.
You may need to go to Post #4 for the link in an .xls format.

It lists the State and phone number for all of them so you could start calling about the Trooper plates. Not sure if the 800 numbers work from CA..anybody know?

I'm guessing they won't ship to Canada, but I can get them and ship to you, since I have some spare time on my hands.

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=20420&highlight=salvage+yards

HTH

twalker920

07/06/2012, 01:52 PM

If I am in Canada, I took a wrong turn coming home last night!

Thanks for the info Kat...I'll see what I can find.

Some Colorado peeps are doing Argentine Pass this Sunday...not a challenge for our VXs but a beautiful view at the top and a great drive up. If any other CO peeps want to join we are meeting at 9:30 am in the NW parking lot at the I-70 and Morrison exit.

I will be taking photos :)

Happy trails all!

Triathlete

07/06/2012, 01:56 PM

Google allhandaiisuzu...they specialize in isuzu salvage and their prices are not to bad.

VX KAT

07/06/2012, 06:26 PM

If I am in Canada, I took a wrong turn coming home last night!

What the #$&@ was I reading?...I've gotta give up the drugs....:rollo:

Google allhandaiisuzu...they specialize in isuzu salvage and their prices are not to bad.

They're on the list. Actually every time I've spoken with them about a part they're HIGHER, much higher than most others....I'll bet it's cuz I'm a girl...and they think I am clueless! well,....um...I appear to be clueless when it comes to Countries...:slap:

twalker920

07/06/2012, 10:03 PM

We do share the Rockies with Canada, because we're friendly, eh?

VX KAT

07/06/2012, 10:12 PM

We do share the Rockies with Canada, because we're friendly, eh?

that MUST be it, [start Jon Lovitz voice] ..yeah, that's the ticket!!!

twalker920

07/07/2012, 03:18 PM

Ah back when that show was funny! Good times, good times :)

Now is ze time on shprockets ven ve dance!

VXorado

07/07/2012, 11:05 PM

I completely agree with Jo... in that I think these are overkill for the majority of VX's

Jo keeps breaking his VX and could probably use the kilby skidplates. :laughing:

I have the kilbys and they are absolutely overkill... But you wouldn't want an offroad product that wasn't overkill. Right?

JoFotoz

07/07/2012, 11:37 PM

LOLOL Jon...

Jo keeps breaking his VX and could probably use the kilby skidplates. :laughing:

If the Kilby protected ring gears.....

.....even I'd buy it!

:smack:

jo

jonnybegood

02/21/2020, 10:14 PM

Mile High VX

02/22/2020, 07:27 AM

A lot of the group has moved over to Facebook. This forum was down for quite some time and they took that avenue to keep the group alive.

JoFotoz

02/22/2020, 05:27 PM

jimmyray

05/06/2020, 11:36 AM

Nice job on this undercarriage protection. Well worth the money in my opinion!!!

SwissBliss

06/11/2020, 11:54 PM

*blows dust off thread*

Does anyone have any current information on the Kirby skid-plates? I'm only now coming to the point where I'm looking to take my Vehicross to the next level...and all the information I'm finding is long out of date.

Kilby plates no longer made...you may get lucky and find a used one for sale.
Depending on the type of Off Roading you do..and how much lift you have , the three piece Trooper skid plate set is used by many...and bolts right on.
Getting harder to find...but better overall than the Kilby IMO.

( side note)...I saw you were look for Jon / VXorado...he no longer has a Vx...though he gets on the VX FB page now and then.
Swing by and use the search function there..pretty much everything possible has been asked and answered ...and if ya cant find it..shout out :)

Cheers

Jo

Hey Joe, your PMs are full and I hope you can read this:

Hey buddy, glad to see you are still active. I am desperately wanting to custom order that Rock Bumper. Is there any way in the world you could help me out? Also, would it accomodate a winch, ideally on the inside, but the outside would work as well.

Give me a text or call at (469) 955-1160, as I am way more active on the facebook group (I am JiveTurk).

Will eventually build something very close to yours with cool metallic paint, 3-6" lift, amazing suspension, and rhino lined side cladding. Also going to build the engine and super charge it with a 500hp goal, once I finish exterior, suspension, etc.

Thanks,

Doug