Drive train conversion

[SilverBullet75]

Hi,
Since Wisdom did the V8 swap, the possibility of a conversion is more of a reality to us now. But, the question I've always had, but haven't seen an answer to is...

Can the entire engine and transmission from an LT1, LS1, LS2, etc.. be swapped in place of the stock VX system, then just mod/connect a drive shaft to the rear axle?

Something like this... LS2 with Trans (http://images.craigslist.org/5G25K45M73F73N23Hec133bd112b1435119f6.jpg)

Granted the TOD and 4WD would go away, but for some of us that's ok.

Thanks!
---JIM---

[VXorado]

Space is the issue & Wisdom can probably answer that question best. Considering he didn't have enough space to mount an AC compressor with a 5.3L V8, I would think a 6.0L LS2 might be a bit too big.


and Jim... no 4wd :slap::p

[SilverBullet75]

LoL.
Yeah.. I'll probably end up having 2 VX's...
One with stock engine and 4wd, and the other V8'd and RWD.
It would make a real fun autocross vehicle, that's for sure!
LOL

[SilverBullet75]

Will our rear axle be ok with direct feed from a LS*'d Chevy transmission?

[Triathlete]

12 bolts are quite stout!

[vt_maverick]

LoL.
Yeah.. I'll probably end up having 2 VX's...
One with stock engine and 4wd, and the other V8'd and RWD.
It would make a real fun autocross vehicle, that's for sure!
LOL

What about a heavy V8 engine and RWD suggests autocross? That's more for racing stop light to stop light IMHO. Got to believe an AWD/TOD VX would smoke a V8 VX on an autocross course.

[SilverBullet75]

That makes sense... Was just thinking of the sliding ability.

[vt_maverick]

Could just install manual hubs up front for a lot cheaper...

[SilverBullet75]

LOL... true

[SilverBullet75]

Ok, I just found a source for an LT1 from an early '90s Firebird, and a rebuilt transmission from an older Suburban... all for $700.

There's something about guys named Mike... This guy has done MANY Chevy conversions: Porsche, Toyota, and many others... He's a fabricator with a shop and lifts in his home garage!

I may employ his services to help put this together. It all depends on timing.
If the Conversion Kit comes together soon, I may go that route and keep the stock transmission, etc... but otherwise... I will be removing the TOD/Front axle hardware. It will be done hot rod-style. Rear wheel power only.

But, I want to cut output of wallet resources, so I will be doing much of the work myself. He'll do the fabrication of mounts, etc.

First thing I need to know from those who know: Engine removal... pull out the top or drop out the bottom?

Thanks!

[VXorado]

Nice, go for it. Get an engine lift from harbor freight and pull upward. I think if you search "engine" in the gallery you'll see a member pulling the engine and trans.

[VXorado]

Here you go:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/100_0544.JPG (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/20112)

[SilverBullet75]

Thanks!
I'm thinking that in order to save headache later on I might rebuild the motor before putting it in. I'll order a rebuild kit from Jegs or Summit. Maybe upgrade to near/above LS* hp/torque.

I've never done a Chevy, but have lots of Porsche and jet ski experience... LOL.
It'll be fun at least. :yesgray:

[SilverBullet75]

Emissions laws SUCK!

If you are looking into engine swaps, check your emissions laws first!
So far, it's a no-go for me. (luckily I found out before I bought the donor engine/trans).

I was doing some research and saw that Ascinder was having a forum conversation about this subject on Pirate4x4.com. Hopefully he reads this and has some more info/better news.
(sending him a PM too...)

[Triathlete]

I think Az only requires that the donor engine be of the same year or newer and all emissions be intact and functioning. :)

[Ascinder]

Can the entire engine and transmission from an LT1, LS1, LS2, etc.. be swapped in place of the stock VX system, then just mod/connect a drive shaft to the rear axle?

Yes! The NV4500(heavy duty manual transmission) and an NP205 transfer case is actually a couple inches shorter than stock. At worst you may have to have the driveshafts modded/manufactured/etc. Most VX's would even be overkill with an NV3500 which IIRC is the same size and much more available. I don't know anything about auto transmissions though, so you'll have to do your own homework there.


Space is the issue & Wisdom can probably answer that question best. Considering he didn't have enough space to mount an AC compressor with a 5.3L V8, I would think a 6.0L LS2 might be a bit too big.

All the LS series motors are the same exterior size with the later engines being only slightly larger on the heads and intake manifold. A/C can be done with a relocation kit or by changing the accessory drive configuration. There are also many options used by classic hot rodders to have A/C in vehicles that never came with it.


Will our rear axle be ok with direct feed from a LS*'d Chevy transmission?

Yes. They have been compared with GM 14 bolts and Dana 60s which are both heavy truck axles.


Emissions laws SUCK!

If you are looking into engine swaps, check your emissions laws first!
So far, it's a no-go for me. (luckily I found out before I bought the donor engine/trans).

I was doing some research and saw that Ascinder was having a forum conversation about this subject on Pirate4x4.com. Hopefully he reads this and has some more info/better news.
(sending him a PM too...)

Sorry, haven't been able to find out anything more, except you may check other counties. Some have smog here and some don't. Your mileage may vary....

[SilverBullet75]

Awesome!
Thank you for your help!

As for the Emissions/legality issues... I have done some digging, with DMV!

I'll scan in and post the information packet that the Emissions Lab gave me.
Short story: It IS possible and legal! There are just a lot of rules that make it almost not worth it.

Let's just say that member Wisdom was LUCKY wherever he lives! :smilegray

I'll post that info soon.

[SilverBullet75]

Here you go!
Note: My scanner does an auto-crop. That's why the pages look cut. All of the information is there though...

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/Engine_Swap_Information_-_NV_DMV_-_1.jpg (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=21865)http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/Engine_Swap_Information_-_NV_DMV_-_2.jpg (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=21866)http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/Engine_Swap_Information_-_NV_DMV_-_3.jpg (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=21867)http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/Engine_Swap_Information_-_NV_DMV_-_4.jpg (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=21868)http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/Engine_Swap_Information_-_NV_DMV_-_5.jpg (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=21869)

[SilverBullet75]

Furthermore....
The guy from the Emissions Lab at the DMV told me that EVERYTHING must be swapped over. Even the gas tank... (if) There is an EVAP monitor on the tank that measures volume and vapor amount. Basically, you have to do a full change-over to the donor vehicle's emission system... even if your vehicle didn't have said systems.

So, these rules make engine choices a little more limited. The LT1 I had originally selected is out of the question since it is from the mid-'90s.

Now I'm considering LS1 or LS2.
Actually, I just found a late model Trailblazer SS drive train with under 20k miles...
But, it's just a little out of budget. :madb:

Unfortunately I may have to put the V8 swap on hold for a bit.
I need to prioritize projects. My first concern, as should be with anyone (IMHO) with larger tires... especially if thinking about an engine swap, is to upgrade the brakes.
I'm not happy with the brakes as is, and have heard great things about R1 Concepts. I think I will do this first, then build up money over time to get the unicorn engine that I want... later :( .

[vt_maverick]

The guy from the Emissions Lab at the DMV told me that EVERYTHING must be swapped over. Even the gas tank... (if) There is an EVAP monitor on the tank that measures volume and vapor amount. Basically, you have to do a full change-over to the donor vehicle's emission system... even if your vehicle didn't have said systems.


Doesn't seem like it would be that bad except for the gas tank part, but you'd almost certainly be way better off to buy a donor vehicle rather than individual pieces. Setting aside the gas tank question this means you'd need the engine, intake, MAF sensor, O2 sensor, ECM/PCM, headers, cats, and mufflers at a minimum. With a donor vehicle you'd have pretty much everything you need, with the exception of any custom exhaust "plumbing" work. At least that's my view as a non-mechanically inclined reader. :)

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/Engine_Swap_Information_-_NV_DMV_-_4.jpg

Buffy (Greg) - I think paragraph 5 pretty much bans the Trooper 3.1 diesel swap you were considering. :(

[rwolf15241]

As long as you can pass the plug in test you are good to go in PA, You need to meet the specs for your year car, or motor which ever is newer

[SilverBullet75]

Actually, you just made me re-read the packet, and I found what I think you are talking about... It's kind of a "read between the lines", but let me know what you guys think.

Look at the last large paragraph on this page, first sentence ("If the owner of a vehicle...") :
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/medium/Engine_Swap_Information_-_NV_DMV_-_1.jpg

It makes me believe that if you try to smog it and it passes with the new engine, and no red flags are thrown, all is good...
Thoughts??

[Bob Barker]

Since the vx is a body on frame vehicle wouldn't it be easier to find a 4x4 truck and pull the cab/bed off and put the vx body onto? Sure there will be some fit issues but all systems would/should line up with a little fab work.

[SilverBullet75]

That's hilarious! My wife said the exact same thing the other day.
Maybe something to look into...

Has anyone attempted this?

[Bob Barker]

well, growing up in AR I was able to see dozens of vw bugs and camaro bodies put onto 4x4 vehicles, and if the half toothed people driving them could build it and make it work, I'm sure there is someone on here smart enough to get it done. Would be amazing to find a body wrecked new 4x4 Ford with the ecoboost drivetrain and pull that body off in place of the vehicross. Would probably be too long though.

[maxprime]

well, growing up in AR I was able to see dozens of vw bugs and camaro bodies put onto 4x4 vehicles, and if the half toothed people driving them could build it and make it work, I'm sure there is someone on here smart enough to get it done. Would be amazing to find a body wrecked new 4x4 Ford with the ecoboost drivetrain and pull that body off in place of the vehicross. Would probably be too long though.

nothing is too long..... aslong as you have a plasma torch and a mig welder. :yesb:

[vt_maverick]

I would search Edmunds (manually unfortunately) for a vehicle with similar dimensions, at which point it seems that you'd only need to fabricate whatever brackets would be needed to connect the body bolts from the VX to the corresponding bolts on the new frame. I would stray away from cutting the frame, sounds risky to me.

[Bob Barker]

Would be more than that to get things to work right. Getting a/c ducting lined up, gauges to fit within the vx dash, small things like that.

[tom4bren]

Doesn't seem like it would be that bad except for the gas tank part, but you'd almost certainly be way better off to buy a donor vehicle rather than individual pieces. Setting aside the gas tank question this means you'd need the engine, intake, MAF sensor, O2 sensor, ECM/PCM, headers, cats, and mufflers at a minimum. With a donor vehicle you'd have pretty much everything you need, with the exception of any custom exhaust "plumbing" work. At least that's my view as a non-mechanically inclined reader. :)

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/Engine_Swap_Information_-_NV_DMV_-_4.jpg

Buffy (Greg) - I think paragraph 5 pretty much bans the Trooper 3.1 diesel swap you were considering. :(

I think those limitations are written for companies that do modifications and custom rigs. I don't think that those restrictions apply to the shade tree mechanic. For an owner modifying for his own use: if it passes smog, then it's legal.

[SilverBullet75]

The Emissions Lab guy I was talking to was very emphatic that they will check EVERYTHING to make sure it all came over.
I would hope they would be lenient, but who knows...

[SilverBullet75]

Wisdom,
If you are reading this... please let us know what you did!

[Ascinder]

The Emissions Lab guy I was talking to was very emphatic that they will check EVERYTHING to make sure it all came over.
I would hope they would be lenient, but who knows...
__________________

The way my emissions guy explained it was that all the new systems had to be there, but how you attached everything was left open to you. They didn't say you had to use all donor parts, you jut have to have all the donor emission systems. It is probably cheaper though to just use all donor . The way the fuel tank was explained was that it had to be superior to the OEM tank.

[Ascinder]

After re-reading the pages you posted silverbullet, it pretty clearly states that the emissions configuration must match. In other words if you're throwing in an LS series engine, you have to have two catalytic converters with pre and post cat O2 sensors since that's what the original configuration was-who they are made by is of no concern as long as they are functional and pass muster. I think your DMV tech is trying to be difficult to discourage the swap since it's a buttload of work for them and they seem to think they're liable to some extent. I had this same problem with getting a camping trailer I built assigned a VIN number. I had to fight a little, but after a little talking and show and tell, they were appeased and everything was cool. In the EPA letters example they throw a chevy 350 into a 1985 Jeep-there's no way they are fitting the stock exhaust system length of a donor 350 into a Jeep without modification. The EPA seems like they are more general and just want the vehicle not to be a smog belching travesty. The DMV seems like they are interpreting the facts to suit themsleves and incorrectly interpreting the spirit of the EPA's memo. It's just going to be something that we go round and round with them on. They can be irrational pricks, but they can be reasoned with using a little common sense, logic, and the pages you provided with highlighted exerpts detailing what the policies actually are.