Timing Belt Problems

[term117]

Ok guys I am having a strange problem getting my timing belt on correctly. I used nfpgasmask great guide found here (http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/tbelt.htm) to replace my timing belt and water pump. I replaced everything, put it back together, pulled the pin, and every 3 rotations I lose a tooth on the belt. All 3 of the white lines always match up every rotation but every 3 rotations the notch in the crankshaft timing pulley is one tooth higher then the doted white line. I have redone every step a dozen times and the same thing happens every time. Can someone please help me out with this?:confused::mado::)

For those interested...
I am using a gates water pump replacement kit I got from eBay FYI = 155$ Shipped
Everything looked identical to the parts pictured in the guide I referenced above.

I was quoted 850$ for parts and labor from my local Isuzu repair shop 350$ for labor(Timing belt and Water pump) If I brought my own kit.

Thank you!

[Scott Larson]

That's normal, they won't line up on every rotation. I believe that issue is covered in the manual. Let's hear it guys...:argue:

[MSHardeman]

That's normal, they won't line up on every rotation. I believe that issue is covered in the manual. Let's hear it guys...:argue:

I was going to say the same thing, but after re-reading Bart's instructions it looks like they should line up after every complete revolution of the engine. Even after saying (or typing) that, I seem to remember that mine didn't line up after every revolution either (and I followed Bart's instructions to the letter).:_confused

Hopefully someone else will chime in.

[VXorado]

Even after saying (or typing) that, I seem to remember that mine didn't line up after every revolution either (and I followed Bart's instructions to the letter).:_confused


+1, I remember the same when we did my timing belt.


If you're still concerned, I would count the teeth in the timing belt since its from ebay and could be the wrong size. Also, don't worry about the marks on the belt as much as the position of the cams & crank notches with rotation.

Good luck, I remember how scary it was when I did my timing belt.

[term117]

It says and I quote "Rotate the crankshaft pulley a minimum of 2 complete turns(clockwise) and inspect if the timing marks have returned to the same position(#2 Piston on TDC). If it has returned to the same position" then your done.

It takes 3 rotations for the crank marks to return to the TDC index marks so this makes no sense. Im going to count the teeth on the timing belt to confirm they are the same. Thanks for the input everyone.

I am going to ask nfpgasmask if I can update the PDF guide when I have figured out this problem. If anyone else knows the answer to this please let me know.

[term117]

After reading the TSB here (http://www.justanswer.com/car/46crc-isuzu-rodeo-having-issues-timing-1998-isuzu-rodeo-3-2l.html) on the timing belt a bunch of times, Im definitely doing it correctly. The guys at tire kingdom across from my house said it should line up and that I must be doing it wrong :-/ told me to find a tsb on it. Do you guys think its ok? From what you 3 said you seem to remember it not lining up but I cant think of any reason it would not, and the tire kingdom people said the same thing... So confused

[MSHardeman]

Like VXorado said, I think the marks on the crank and cam pulley's should be in the same position on every rotation, but that does not mean that they will line up with the marks on the belt every time (if that makes any sense). Just due to the way things are rotating, and the length of the belt, the marks on the belt won't always line up with the marks on the pulley's.

I seem to remember mine doing that when I replaced the timing belt. Marks on the pulley's always ended up in the same place after every rotation, but not necessarily lined up with the marks on the belt.

PM Bart to see if he remembers anything.

[nfpgasmask]

You know, I can't really remember. I definitely remember that the lines do not line up on the old belt. I also remember that the marks are there for new belt installation only. I think the lines do get thrown off as you turn the crankshaft after everything is lined up. But its been so long since I did mine I can't really remember.

Have you watched the videos?

Bart

[nfpgasmask]

OK, if you go back to my instructions and read step 35, your answer is there:

Step 35) Now, just so you are ABSOLUTELY SURE, rotate the engine by hand 2 or 3 times using the large 24mm bolt on the crankshaft pulley and a breaker bar. As you turn the engine, notice the marks on the camshaft pulleys line up with the marks on the engine housing at every full rotation. This is how you know for sure your timing is correct!

Notice that it DOES NOT say anything there about the marks on the belt. So it is my feeling that you are done. The marks on the belt WILL NOT line up, but the marks on the pulleys and the engine housing WILL line up. So just check that and you should be good to go.

Bart

[term117]

Ok I see what you guys are saying, I was looking at the white lines instead of the marks. Everything is lining up perfectly now but... Your guide shows the starting point of the crank shaft to have the circle notch next to the white dot but the TBS guide shows it like this http://bayimg.com/oAnNcaADd. 180 Degrees from how you have it in your picture.

I just redid it like it said the do in the TSB
After rotating it 3 times it currently looks exactly like yours in the picture directly above step 35.

[nfpgasmask]

Yes, what you show in that picture has been an issue of debate. But, what I think we have all discovered, is that my tutorial might technically be "backwards" on the crankshaft pulley, but it does not mess up the timing at all.

So, basically, I think you are done. You just need to not look at the marks on the belt now, and look at the marks on the pulleys and the housing.

HTH,

Bart

[term117]

I figured that it did not matter but just wanted to clarify.

Thanks so much for your input everyone and especially Bart for saving me 400$ :). Bart I took a bunch of good pictures and would be happy to clarify some things in the guide if you want. I feel dumb for misreading the guide you made, but im glad to be done with it and I certainly learned a whole lot(And can put the timing belt on by myself blindfolded) now lol. Time to reassemble and test. :dance:

[nfpgasmask]

Yeah, its very gratifying when you do something this big by yourself and save money. Its funny, I've learned so much since I did mine, and acquired so many more tools, I look back on what I did and its just kinda funny.

Glad it helped, and feel free to send any additional pics to info@isuzugeek.org

Bart

[Jonnie]

...and I certainly learned a whole lot(And can put the timing belt on by myself blindfolded) now lol.

Really? I'm in Tampa. LOL! :winky:

Great job!!!

[nfpgasmask]

I'm a USF graduate. LOL.

Bart

[term117]

When I was putting everything back together I realized that the Idle Pulley bearing is totally shot, and the Serp Belt Tensioner bearing is not so hot either. Im looking up replacement bearings for both.

Jennie im available for hire :) lol or if you ever need help let me know.

I went to USF for a while but I decided to finish my degree at St. Petersburg College(graduating in fall!).

[term117]

Good Lord, got it back together and it ran terrible for about 2 seconds and stalled. Started again and car shook for a second and stalled. Maybe the TSB is wrong and your guide is correct. This is so frustrating.

[nfpgasmask]

Good Lord, got it back together and it ran terrible for about 2 seconds and stalled. Started again and car shook for a second and stalled. Maybe the TSB is wrong and your guide is correct. This is so frustrating.
Well, in my own defense, I had ZERO problems with my method, and she fired up right away when I was done.

From your above description, it does sound like your timing could be 180° off now. So, at this point you need to watch the video that shows how to get your timing back if timing is lost.

Good luck,

Bart

[nfpgasmask]

There you go. Thanks for posting those vids, Mark. They are helpful indeed.

Bart

[term117]

I knew that I lost my timing so I followed the TSB. This summarizes it - Rotate the Passenger Camshaft pulley until it springs to 12 o'clock pointing directly at the timing line. Rotate the driver side camshaft until it points 90 degrees to the left of the alignment mark. Rotate the drive camshaft 90 degrees to the right so it matches the alignment mark.

Rotate the crankshaft until it aligns with the mark on the oil pump. I did all this already and it did not work. What I did not do is anything before step 21 in the tsb(opening the engine and such). Also I may have not made sure the crankshaft was on the compression stroke(This has to be the problem I think?).

Do I have to take my engine apart to fix the timing. I don't exactly understand how it works so im sure that making it more complicated. I did what I stated above to correct the timing and that does not work. So im thinking I might have it towed somewhere.

I watched all the videos and read everything I could find.

[SlowPro48]

Dude, you're not making it complicated - it IS complicated. It's a DOHC even-fire V6 - crank throws are 120 degrees apart - but the vee angle is 75 degrees so there's some trickery with cam timing. It will give you a headache if you think about it too much. :_confused

Two things you DON'T need to worry about: First of all, don't worry about whether #2 was on compression stroke or exhaust. All you have to do is make sure #2 is at TDC then by making sure the cams are lined up properly YOU determine that #2 is on the compression stroke and its partner #5 is at TDC on exhaust stroke. Second don't worry about whether you did it Bart's way or the Isuzu way. The Isuzu way most definitely works. (They designed the thing so it oughta!) Bart's way works too. Plenty of people have proven that. I have no idea HOW since he has the cams lined up as if #2 were at TDC but his crank is actually turned so it's half way between #3 and #4's TDC. I guess an engineer could explain it based on number of teeth on the cam gears, number of belt teeth between pulleys, etc - or maybe it's just a combination of luck and a wasted spark ignition - but either way - by logic or by luck - it works.

Two things you DO need to worry about: First, after you installed the belt, did you do like the manual says and turn the engine by hand through at least two complete crank revolutions, making sure there was no resistance? If you did, then you probably won't have to replace any valves. If you didn't then ahhhh... you may have just settled the debate about whether the 6VE1 is an interference engine or not. Second, in your TSB summary you said rotate the driver side pulley "until it points 90 degrees to the left of the alignment mark" but when you did this, did it spring into place (like the passenger side did) before you turned it 90 degrees CW? If not, then there's your problem! You have to rotate BOTH of them enough turns that they spring into place, then you turn the even bank cam pulley (drivers side) 90 degrees more before you put the clamp on.

[nfpgasmask]

So let me get this straight, in my pictures below, is this the part that you all are saying I did backwards?

http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/042.jpg

http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/050.jpg

I've never quite understood what everyone is saying is wrong with my timing belt instructions. I suppose it should be gotten to the bottom of here and now. I am not trying to create an arguement or debate, I just want to understand what is wrong with my instructions, and also how my instructions worked fine despite there being something wrong.

Here are the things I can verify 100%:

1) When I was done with my timing belt install, everything worked fine. Not one single problem. VX fired right up.

2) When I removed my old belt, the LH and RH camshaft pulleys springed to the 12 o'clock position.

3) I never moved my crank once the old belt was off.

4) I followed this diagram EXACTLY when I lined up the new belt:
http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/025.jpg

So where is the backwards part of my install?

Please help me understand so I can annotate my document.

Thanks - Bart

[SlowPro48]

Yes, that's it! The crank sprocket - it's #1 on the diagram you posted. #7 on the diagram points to the TDC notch in crank sprocket lined up with the TDC mark cast in the oil pump housing. #8 shows the dotted lines on the belt lining up with the mark punched in the rim of the sprocket.

If you check the Service Bulletin that Mark posted, you'll see a good picture at Step 26, which says, "Align the dotted-white line of the timing belt with the white timing mark of the crank sprocket (180 degrees from TDC timing notch)".

You did the opposite, however. You lined the dotted-white line up with the timing notch, not the white mark - so your cams were positioned like they were supposed to be, but #2 cylinder was at Bottom Dead Center instead of TDC i.e., 180 degrees off.

As far as why it still works.... I'm not smart enough to know the details of why it works but the bottom line answer is that if you install the belt according to Isuzu's instructions, and then you rotate the engine a bunch of times, all of the pulleys and marks eventually line up as pictured in your how-to. Everybody knows this because your VX runs. My right bicep knows it because curiosity got the best of me. I installed the belt according to Isuzu's instructions but when it came time to spin the engine by hand to make sure there were no crunchy noises I went well beyond the two turns of the full Otto cycle in order to see how many turns it took before everything would line up the way you did it. The answer is LOTS. I can't remember exactly - wish I'd written it down - but I do remember my arm felt like it was about to fall off - and I was using a 2 foot long ratchet and all of the spark plugs were out...

The relationship between cams and crank and a particular spot on the belt is set by the gear and pulley ratios and the number of teeth between the pulleys. It's nothing but math. There's a definite number of crank turns before a particular combination of marks comes around again. A high school kid with a B average in algebra could probably come up with a formula to calculate that interval - but I cant! Hey maybe one of our non-U.S. members can figure it out for us since the rest of the world kicks our azz when it comes to math skills.

Even if we knew how it happens that you can start out with #2 at BDC instead of with the piston at TDC where you would normally expect to see it when the cams are lined up for compression stroke, I'm not sure it would tell us whether it works this way by design or not. Wouldn't it be nice if we could lure an Isuzu engineer in here?!

[nfpgasmask]

OK, I see what you are saying, but this is why it is still very confusing to me.

Before I removed my old timing belt, I rotated the crankshaft pulley a few times, just so I could see everything line up and get a firm understanding of that.

Then I turned the crankshaft pulley and lined up both camshaft pulleys like so:
http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/028.jpg
http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/027.jpg

Once both camshaft pulleys lined up, the crankshaft pulley lined up like so:
http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/029b.jpg

At that point, I removed the old timing belt. With the old timing belt off, the half-circle notch on the BACK of the crankshaft sprocket is on the OPPOSITE side of the green painted tick mark on the FRONT of the crankshaft sprocket. The half-circle notch lined up with the white paint mark on the housing like so (note this pick shows the new belt installed):
http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/050b.jpg

I then installed my new timing belt from there to line up with all the marks, and it worked perfectly. So I still do not see how my instructions are off from the Isuzu instructions.

IMO, there is one or more of the following scenarios happening:

1) People, myself included, could be reading and interpreting the various instructions out there in different ways and thus, confusion is created.

2) The Isuzu instructions, videos and diagrams are explaining this is a way that confuses some folks.

3) My instructions are explaining this in a way that confuses some folks despite my absolute best effort to spell this out as simply as possible.

4) Some people who HAVE NOT ever done this maintenance are chiming in with opinions and information without actual experience to back their claims up.

5) People are not understanding where the marks are and where they should be lining up, or they are looking at my photos or the diagrams wrong.

6) People are not reading carefully enough and paying attention to the different things happening, ie, camshaft vs crankshaft, notch on back vs notch on front, dotted line on old belt vs dotted line on new belt, etc.

7) And lastly, the Isuzu instructions could be either wrong, or perhaps there is some variance between our VX's and the Trooper's 3.5. Meaning, maybe there are some slight differences between years or models that could be causing us to pull our hair out. Despite the fact that many of us on here could be considered VehiCROSS gurus, we don't know everything about what happened during the manufacturing process, video creation, and eveything else that happened while these vehicles were being manufactured. Errors are made, even by the big companies.

The only way that I could have done this the "right" way, would have been to remove my old belt, and then turn the crankshaft pulley 180 degrees to get the half-circle notch to line up at the opposite side, which imo, would have screwed up my timing and would have been completely wrong. The white dot and the half-circle notch line up. The green painted tick mark and the line mark on the housing line up. Both of those align opposite eachother.

I hope this makes sense, and again, I believe my instructions are right, and there is just some confusion in the interpretation.

Bart

Edit PS: Slowpro, I just reread what you wrote above.


If you check the Service Bulletin that Mark posted, you'll see a good picture at Step 26, which says, "Align the dotted-white line of the timing belt with the white timing mark of the crank sprocket (180 degrees from TDC timing notch)".

I absolutely DID NOT do the opposite of what you are saying, clearly presented in my photos above, so which one of my pictures is confusing people? Or am I still confused? The "white timing mark" the Bulletin is referring to, MUST be the white dot at 180 degrees from the TDC notch, correct????

[nfpgasmask]

OK, I just looked at the Service Bulletin again.

Step 26. This photo illustrates EXACTLY the same thing as my photos. Please compare them.

http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/step26.jpg

http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/046.jpg

http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/050b.jpg

So again, not trying to argue, but I think my instructions are 100% correct, and followed the Isuzu instructions to the letter.

My goal was to provide timing belt instructions in a more clear way that Isuzu presented them, and if there is a mistake or even a tiny bit of confusion that I caused, I apologize. I just want to clear this up so no one has trouble in the future.

Bart

[nfpgasmask]

OK, had some more time here at work and so I downloaded the video and watched it again.

I think I see where the confusion is, and where my instructions could be considered backwards.

There are two marks on the crankshaft, one is the green "reference mark" on the outside of the crankshaft pulley, and the other is the half-circle notch referred to as the "timing mark" in the video. Its actually really hard to tell in the video because it is compressed and very hard to make out those fine details.

Anyway, I guess in my instructions the reference mark and the timing mark are backwards. I suppose this would not be the case had I turned the crankshaft one more full revolution.

Now, the reason why this worked obviously, is because both of those marks are just reference marks for the timing and the new belt installation. Apparently, so long as the camshaft marks are lined up, changing the belt whether at TDC or 180 degrees from TDC doesn't matter, so long as you install the new belt properly and you don't turn the crankshaft.

So, I can now say that I understand the discrepency, and I can update my instructions accordingly.

Now, to the OP, I hope that you did NOT turn your crankshaft pulley once you had the old belt off. If you did that, then you are 180 degrees off most likely. The other problem could be you are just a tooth off.

Anyway, I think my doing it backwards was simply a result of the video and diagram not clarifying between the two different marks well enough.

Bart

[PK]

Bart, I followed your instructions to the letter when doing my 3.2L JDM motor, and it fired straight up without any problems.
I don't think Isuzu made any changes to the motors in this area, provided we are all talking about the twin cam motor. (3.2L motor was also made in single cam version with about 175 HP.)

Your instructions are very clear and helpful, and I really would not change them.

PK

[nfpgasmask]

Thanks, PK. I am not planning on changing my instructions, however, I did make an annotation to them that explains the descrepency. The last thing I want to do is confuse people!

Bart

[term117]

I don't think there's anything wrong with your guide, I just didn't understand what I was doing at the time. If you just say this part is easy line up notches, remove old belt and place new belt on in the same spot. Might make it seem less complicated.

On to my problem
I did everything in this video to a T and tried to start the car without putting it back together. I didnt turn over at all. I assume it would still start.

http://www.vehicross.info/misc/timing_belt/timing.wmv
The cams spring into place every time and I am not losing a tooth. Perhaps my Cam gear retaining pin is sheared as it mentions in the video. Im guessing I don't need to take the heads off if the cams are springing to the correct positions every 9 rotations?

[SlowPro48]

Anyway, I guess in my instructions the reference mark and the timing mark are backwards. I suppose this would not be the case had I turned the crankshaft one more full revolution.


Wha? If you had turned the crank one more revolution you'd be right back where you started - i.e., still 180 degrees off. Turning the crank is not the problem. If you want to avoid confusion, the problem is telling people to align the dotted line on the belt WITH the TDC notch - when instructions from Isuzu say align the dotted line on the belt "180 DEGREES FROM TDC timing notch".

Note it's only a problem if you want to avoid confusion - it's not a problem from a practical/operational standpoint. As you well know, the VX runs just fine with the crank aligned 180 degrees off. All you're doing is making it fire the #5 cylinder when it thinks it's firing #2. Like I said in a previous post - just one of the advantages of a wasted spark ignition!

If you leave the instructions and pics as-is then, like the OP, people are going to continue to be confused during timing belt installs. And if they end up ignoring Isuzu's instructions and doing it as depicted in your how-to, it might even cause confusion well after the install. I can imagine the frustration of a future owner or his/her unfortunate mechanic when he discovers the high misfire count DTC he's been chasing on #4 is actually due to a bad plug wire on #1 and a confused PCM that thinks #1 is #4, #2 is #5, #3 is #6, etc!

Bart, I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your timing belt how-to. It helps all of us a great deal to have picture-rich start to finish instructions all in one place. If you truly want to eliminate future confusion though, modifying the instructions for that one step (installation of the belt on the crank pulley) to reflect what's in the manual and the TSB would take care of it - no further explainations/annotations/discussion needed ever again.

[SlowPro48]

OK term117, sorry for the TJ, let's see if we can get your prob figured out.

When you say it "didnt turn over at all" do you mean when you engaged the starter absolutely nothing happened i.e., the engine did not spin at all? Or do you mean it turned but didn't start?

Did you spin it by hand for a couple rotations to make sure there was no interference after you put the belt on?

And what do you mean when you say you "tried to start the car without putting it back together"?

[nfpgasmask]

Note it's only a problem if you want to avoid confusion - it's not a problem from a practical/operational standpoint. As you well know, the VX runs just fine with the crank aligned 180 degrees off. All you're doing is making it fire the #5 cylinder when it thinks it's firing #2. Like I said in a previous post - just one of the advantages of a wasted spark ignition!

So, are you saying that because of the way I did my timing belt swap, I must be misfiring now? Or are you saying because of the mistake in my write-up, people could get confused and then their VX would misfire after they do it wrong? If I was misfiring, wouldn't my VX run like crap, throw a CEL or whatever?

To me, my install worked fine because essentially I am just taking the old belt off, and installing a new one without disrupting anything. Technically, like you said, that would work regardless of where your pulleys are, as long as the new belt goes on in exactly the same way the old one was on.

Of course, I would love to fix my instructions, but I am not about to tear into my VX just to snap 2 or 3 pictures of this the right way. So, if there is someone out there who is doing this and would like to provide correct photos, I would gladly update my instructions, but for now, I have removed the write-up from my old website and I currently have no link to it up on my new website. As for the how-to section on this forum, the pdf probably should be taken down until the error is corrected.

Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to spell this out, honestly, it wasn't until I studied the pictures, the videos and the diagram again and again before I realized where the mistake is.

Now I am just concerned that my VX could be screwed up somehow??!?!?

:_wtf: Bart

[term117]

Bart in your guide your both your Cams spring to 12(as compared to the floor) pointing straight up as mine did when I first took the belt off. After rotating the engine a few more times(when I thought I had done it incorrectly) they did not spring to 12 and thus a relied on the TSB because I didn't want to mess things up. The TSB and your guide have the cams pointing in different directions so it may be that the way in your guide is the correct way to have the crank shaft when you do it that way.

If I had my car all apart as in not following any of the steps of putting it back together(no radiator and such) and just starting it after I put the belt on it should still start right? I was just going to let it run for 5 secs to make sure its on correctly.

As I said I put it together exactly as in the TSB and it turned for about 3 seconds and stalled. I dont know if I have to open the engine and adjust the cams from inside the engine or if that would even help at all.

Slowpro it sounds like you really know what your talking about. If I could get you on the phone that would be awesome.

[SlowPro48]

So, are you saying that because of the way I did my timing belt swap, I must be misfiring now?

No, dude, it's not screwed up! It's all good! :thumbup: And everybody that followed your how-to is all good too. I wasn't saying it would cause a misfire I was saying if there's a misfire it would be attributed to the wrong cylinder which might cause some confusion when it came time to diagnose the problem. But in no way was I saying installing the timing belt according to your instructions will cause misfire or poor running.

Background info: These engines are even fire V6s so there's a power stroke every 120 degrees. Firing order is 123456 with 1 & 4 paired, 2 & 5 paired and 3 & 6 paired and by that I mean rising and falling together so that while one is at TDC at end of compression stroke, its mate is at TDC at end of exhaust stroke. The ignition system is set up so that the pairs share spark. The one that's on the compression stroke goes bang when it gets spark. (and a few degrees later will be into the power stroke) Since the other one is on exhaust stroke the spark does nothing - it's wasted.

The PCM uses two sensors to determine which cylinder is firing - one to determine crank position (that narrows it down to two) and one to determine camshaft position (that tells it which one of the two is on power stroke and which one is on intake). When the PCM senses sudden drop in crank speed (i.e., a misfire) it assigns it to a particular cylinder, keeps a count of the misfires and if there are too many, throws a DTC implicating the bad cylinder.

The belt change TSB has you align the valves and crank for #2 at TDC on compression stroke which means it's mate # 5's valves are positioned for end of exhaust stroke.

Here's why I said the PCM could get the cylinders confused: I know from working on bikes with wasted spark ignitions that as long as you've got the crank right, you can set the valves up 180 degrees off and since there's a spark every time the piston is near TDC, the bike will fire and run perfectly because the with the next turn everything will line up properly for compression stroke. If the VX runs with crank 180 degrees off like in your pictures then the PCM would be sensing that #2 is firing when in reality #5 is firing and thus if there were misfire it would assign the "blame" to the wrong cylinder. I was thinking it actually would run like that because when you set up the valves like the TSB says with #2 at TDC on the compression stroke then #5 is at TDC on exhaust so the exhaust valve is open and intake is closed. Then if the crank is positioned as per your pics, with the next turn I think both valves would be closed in #5 and what used to be a wasted spark during the exhaust stroke is now happening in the compression stroke - so it fires up and runs fine - but the sensors are telling the PCM that #2 is firing when #5 is firing and vice versa.

I'm thinking more clearly now than at 2AM last night though and am now doubting it will run with the crank 180 degrees off. The problem is I mostly work on singles and when you throw in multiple cylinders and DOHC it warps my mind! Or what little is left of it. I totally suck at visualization in 3D. I'm gonna have to draw some pictures I guess!

To be continued...

[nfpgasmask]

OK, I see, I think I got it. Yeah, can be confusing for sure.

Bart

[SlowPro48]

OK, Bart I was dead wrong about it being able to run if the cams are lined up like the TSB says but the crank is positioned so that #2 and #5 are at BDC instead of TDC. I diagrammed it out and it looks like in the #2 cylinder from 180 to 360 the exhaust valve would be opening while the piston was going toward TDC, so no prob there - then from 360 down to 540 the exhaust would be closing and the intake opening, no prob there either, but then on the next upstroke from 540 to 0/720 the intake would be open. Big problem! There would be no compression just the sound of air huffing back through the intake. Meanwhile, over in #5, the intake valve would be opening while the piston was going up from 180 to 360 so it would be huffing back through the intake too - then from 360 down to 540 both valves would be closed so it would be sucking air past the closed valves. The other pairs would be doing the same wacky stuff.

In other words, there would be no combustion, just a bunch of huffing and puffing and sucking noises. And maybe an occasional backfire. It would sound a lot like a Zumba Gold class without the music and the hot little instructor girl named Krista. Ah, but I digress... Bottom line is there's absolutely no way it would run if it were 180 off. It will only run one way. So if yours is running like it's supposed to then it's set up 100% right.:yesb:

Now that I see that one little inconsistency is totally harmless I think you oughta leave the how-to up. It's too good of a write-up to keep under wraps. It would still be nice to have the how-to and the Isuzu instructions match but I don't see any harm in keeping it available with a caveat that if you've lost timing because of a broken belt or inadvertently turned the cams then don't refer to the how-to, use the TSB instead. Maybe next time someone does a timing belt change they'll line it up the Isuzu way before removing the belt and take some pics for you. Hey if I'm still around and able, in another 80K miles I'll take pics not only of the crankshaft sprocket but also the cams. It will be time to check clearance so the valve covers will have to come off.

Sorry if I gave you a scare there - shoulda diagrammed it out before running my mouth I guess. Just can't trust this worm-eaten brain anymore! :confused:

[SlowPro48]

If I could get you on the phone that would be awesome.

Dude, I don't know how much help I'd be! But I be glad to talk to you and do what I can to help you figure out what the problem is. One thing you said in that last message made me wonder. You said "as compared to the floor" but When the TSB says rotate the cam sprocket until it springs to 9 o'cock or 12 o'clock they mean with respect to the block deck, not the shop floor. If you positioned them at 12 o'clock with respect to the floor they are 37.5 degrees off and that would be a problem.

Anyway if you want to call me just multiply 480583651 by the number of days in a week and that's my phone number.

[Scott Larson]

Bunch-O-Troublemakers...:argue::_brickwal:_mecker::drama:

[nfpgasmask]

Sorry if I gave you a scare there - shoulda diagrammed it out before running my mouth I guess. Just can't trust this worm-eaten brain anymore! :confused:

Naaa, you didn't really scare me, obviously my VX is running, and has been, without issue, so I guess I was more worried that it caused the computer issue you spoke of. But, for me, I have plans to be buried in my VX so the next owner of my VX will hopefully be earhtworms. :)

Anyway, this was a good discussion. These are important issues.

:) Bart

[SlowPro48]

Larson, what are you doing here? Didn't I fire you? Are you going Costanza on us?

Hey Term117 did you get it running yet?

[CrnCnn]

I dont want to start another thread for this question.

Does the bolt in the crankshaft pulley come out like normal? Meaning is it reverse thread?

I cannot get it out. I borrowed a impact gun from a friend and its not budging. I sprayed some PB blaster on it and will try again in the morning.

[Zu4two]

Crankshaft bolt is normal thread. It is on there at ~125 foot-pounds, so it doesn't come off easily.

[CrnCnn]

Thank you! I will just have to try harder.

[Chopper]

not that it matters ....but I followed the Bart layout pretty closely last year, and the VX runs like a champ
In 40 or 50,000 when I do it again, I'll try the Isuzu method
:bgwo: