Suggestions for Leveling Out Suspension?

[vt_maverick]

I know this seems like a rather repetitive question that I should know the answer to already, but hear me out... Now that I have the tom4bren hitch that mounts directly to the frame rails I get serious rear sag when I'm fully loaded with weight (roof rack with full size spare, swing-out cargo box with luggage, two kids + dog, etc.). Not enough to touch the tires or anything, but enough to have probably 2 inches more vertical clearance in the front wheel well than in the back. Obviously driving nose up is not exactly the most fuel efficient method of travel, and I'm also a bit worried about what wear I might be doing to the CVs.

So it seems like I have a few choices:

Add taller/stiffer springs in the rear but don't crank the torsion bar any more than they already are
"De-crank" the torsion bars to lower the front and create more downward rake
Install an air ride / leveling system (not realistic due to time or $$$)
Install taller/firmer springs for the journey to Moab, swap OEM springs in for the trail runs, then reinstall taller/firmer springs for the ride home.

Options 1 and 2 are both going to result in a serious funny car look when I take the cargo box off in Moab. While that might be funny to watch I'm more concerned about doing a higher-than-normal amount of trail faceplants because of it. :) Option 3 is unrealistic so option 4 seems like it might be best, assuming somebody at The Stoop would be willing to give me a hand (and by that I mean do it while I hold your beer like the girly man that I am :o).

Other thoughts? Suggestions? Maybe somebody makes a spring with the same uncompressed height as the OEM spring but with stiffer compression?

[Ala5ka]

One and two seem to be your only real viable options, the reason trucks come with a nose down rake is so that they look level when they have weight on them. My vx sits nose down from the factory but with people and some bags in the back it levels out, stiffer springs would help but your ride will suffer and it will sit nose down when not loaded up

[deermagnet]

They have a kit for the VX-
http://www.airliftcompany.com (http://www.airliftcompany.com/)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeDVcTNPQGs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeDVcTNPQGs)

The Air Lift 1000 kit is $130 and easy to install. :_confused

Mark

[JoFotoz]

Option 4 is VERY easy.

Change of springs takes about a cocktails worth to do....

...in stoop time!

More than happy to help ya...
....and avail myself of your beer/cocktail holding skills.

It'll cost ya a cocktail for Dub too...
...for the loan of his super jack!

Jo

[vt_maverick]

Can do Jo. :) What springs would you guys recommend?

[vt_maverick]

Mark - That's an interesting idea. I wonder whether your garden variety portable air compressor could pump them up or if I'd need an air tank or full-on on-board air system?

[JoFotoz]

I believe the OME 919's are the heavy load version...

...I think Dub runs those and he tows, and brings a chit load of stuff!


I found this...

OME912, 420 mm, 10.8, .....180-300 (medium load )
OME913, 390 mm, 9.3, .......180-300 (medium load)
OME919, 430 mm, 10.8,...... 200-280 (heavy load )


There is also the mega post from Rickshaw that pretty much tells it all.

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=15476&highlight=OME+919


jo

[deermagnet]

Mark - That's an interesting idea. I wonder whether your garden variety portable air compressor could pump them up or if I'd need an air tank or full-on on-board air system?
They only need 25-35 psi, so any compressor should handle it. They do make a wireless on-board compressor system, but you know how those things love to leak.

That kit looks like it's made for your exact issue.

Mark

[BigSwede]

Actually you can go heavier yet with OME929s. They are 420mm, 10.8, ... 240/300 (expedition load).

That would be pretty stiff on a VX though. I have them on my Trooper, but a Trooper has a LOT more weight over the rear axle.

[JoFotoz]

I wonder if these air springs take off road abuse?

:confused:

jo

[vt_maverick]

Wouldn't need 'em once we hit the trail. With the rear cargo box off everything goes pretty much back to normal. I could probably just lower the torsion bars a touch more than normal and be just fine.

The cargo box is both my friend and my nemesis. :)

[JoFotoz]

So are you suggesting removing them for off road...

...or just "deflating" them?

(assuming I'm reading the info right...that they sit inside your coil springs..)

jo

[VXorado]

That kit looks like it's made for your exact issue.

Mark

I agree, deflate the air bags for the trails and pump them up for the ride home. Definitely your best option since you can leave them in the coils springs and use them whenever necessary. It's not worth getting a OBA system for the airbags, i'm currently building a system and it's a PITA. You're more than welcome to use my air system to fill the bags at the end of the week. Only worry would be the airbags not holding up to trail abuse. :confused:

Or I can also throw in a hand at the stoop if you want to change out springs. :)

[JoFotoz]

X2....


Only worry would be the airbags not holding up to trail abuse. :confused:


jo

[blacksambo]

Have you thought about running different size rear wheels and tires, and swapping them out for what's on the roof once you get to the meet?

[JoFotoz]

Wouldnt this completely screw up.....


Have you thought about running different size rear wheels and tires, and swapping them out for what's on the roof once you get to the meet?

...the working of the TOD?

jo

[vt_maverick]

Regardless there's not enough room up there for two spare tires. And God would that look awful...

[blacksambo]

Well then, we're getting real creative here...how about a helper coil spring within your existing coil rear spring? Double coil set ups have been used for your situation before, on other types of vehicles , of course.

[Triathlete]

Another option...
Buy yourself a small trailer to haul all your "weight" in to tow behind utilizing your hitch...simply disconnect when you get to Moab...easy, peaset, problem solved :)

[Ala5ka]

Another option...
Buy yourself a small trailer to haul all your "weight" in to tow behind utilizing your hitch...simply disconnect when you get to Moab...easy, peaset, problem solved :)

Revolutionary!

[tom4bren]

When the airbags are deflated, they are just along for the ride so I don't think that they would suffer any damage during off road use.

However, the ones on my RV have a minimum psi rating & I don't know why. I would suggest that you call the company (they have a support line listed in the 'contact us' tab). Ask them at least these 3 questions:

1. Do the airbags have a minimum psi recommendation & why?

2. The VX has an incredible amount of rear suspension travel. Will this cause any damage to the airbags as long as the rear coil springs remain in their perches?

3. Why do they list one compatable with the '99 VX and not for '00 or '01? Is there a difference in the suspension (AFAIK there is not)?

BTW, the airbags have very little volume and lower max pressure than tires. Any little compressor will air them up just fine.

[Riff Raff]

They have a kit for the VX-
http://www.airliftcompany.com (http://www.airliftcompany.com/)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeDVcTNPQGs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeDVcTNPQGs)

The Air Lift 1000 kit is $130 and easy to install. :_confused

Mark


x2, me likey the air bags. The small trailer idea is good too; heck, you could even rent a small minature U-Haul lockable enclosed utility trailer just for the trip and return it when you arrive back home.

:bgwb:

[vt_maverick]

Certainly a trailer would add the capacity I need but it would be pretty expensive - remember I'm not just traveling out to see you guys in Moab but I'm also going to spend two weeks with the wife's family in Wisconsin afterwards. Renting a U-Haul for 3-4 weeks or buying a trailer outright would be pretty expensive and a lot more of a headache to drive, park, etc.

I'm going to give these air bag guys a call with Tom's questions above and then go from there. If it actually works I think it would be something everybody might be interested in seeing in action.

[Riff Raff]

I'm going to give these air bag guys a call with Tom's questions above and then go from there. If it actually works I think it would be something everybody might be interested in seeing in action.


Good on you, VT. I look forward to your feedback regarding the air bags. My OEM stock height VX see-saws/bounces up & down on the rear (with OEM rear springs) when I go slow over shopping mall speed bumps. With your feedack; I'm hoping the air bags will stiffin' up the rear and eliminate the rear-end bounce/see-saw effect, without adding increased rear-end lift in height.

:bgwb:

[BigSwede]

My OEM stock height VX see-saws/bounces up & down on the rear (with OEM rear springs) when I go slow over shopping mall speed bumps. With your feedack; I'm hoping the air bags will stiffin' up the rear and eliminate the rear-end bounce/see-saw effect, without adding increased rear-end lift in height.

:bgwb:

That would be a shock issue...

[vt_maverick]

Just had a thought... maybe I should put stock bump stops / spring helpers back on for the ride to limit the bouncing?

[tom4bren]

Just had a thought... maybe I should put stock bump stops / spring helpers back on for the ride to limit the bouncing?

by spring helpers, I assume you mean the airbags = sounds like your best option.

OEM bump stops = probably overkill with the airbags. The only reason that I could see to put the OEM bumpstops back on is to ensure that at full articulation of the rear suspension, they MIGHT keep the spring from leaving it's perch.

[Ldub]

Renting a U-Haul for 3-4 weeks or buying a trailer outright would be pretty expensive and a lot more of a headache to drive, park, etc.

Uh-kaayyyyy...

I'm gonna throw my 3 centavos in right here.

I picked up a 4 square trailer from Northern Tool & Supply for under $400.00 a few yrs ago...:thumbup:

Outfitted it with a diamond plate box & fabbed a tire/wheel mount.

It's a pretty handy lil' unit, & the ricer wing adds lift....for better mileage...:smilewink...:laughing:...:slap:

Also, it's light enough to disconnect, then park it by hand. On the OTHER side of the coin...:rolleyesg It's a real PAIN to back into anything that resembles a parking spot, due to the short wheelbase(s) of the trailer/tow vehicle.
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC04323.JPG

[vt_maverick]

Good to know, thanks Dub! The driving/parking is really a big deal on this trip as drive-thru's make the trip MUCH faster/easier with the kids. Our oldest is in that all-meals-must-last-at-least-90-minutes phase right now... :rolleyes:

[blacksambo]

I thought you already had your OEM Spring Helpers back in place. If you put them on you probably won't sag as much. Just a thought, from the "Spring Helper Guy".

[vt_maverick]

I still have my cut ones there for now. Regardless, reinstalling the OEM stops/helpers might eliminate the sag but they'll do so by resting the entire rear of the vehicle DIRECTLY on the rear axle. I have a feeling the girls and dog won't appreciate the ride quality. I was thinking that the OEM stops might help relieve the pressure the air bags experience after hitting a bump.

[JoFotoz]

I cant help thinking that we have gone in a huge circle....

...and a set of heavy duty OME springs is the way to go.

Simple swap in & out...
.....and no worry about damage to/ or the additional
add-ons needed for air bags.

Its the KISS premise IMO.

jo

[blacksambo]

What kind of weight are we talking about here? The rear axel is officially designed to handle 2475lbs gross, with stock spring helpers, and ride well.

You probably could 10% more without over doing anything, taking into account the safety margin.










I still have my cut ones there for now. Regardless, reinstalling the OEM stops/helpers might eliminate the sag but they'll do so by resting the entire rear of the vehicle DIRECTLY on the rear axle. I have a feeling the girls and dog won't appreciate the ride quality. I was thinking that the OEM stops might help relieve the pressure the air bags experience after hitting a bump.

[vt_maverick]

I would not characterize the factory backseat ride quality as "well."

Kids probably weigh 70 lbs with their car seats, dog's another 40 lbs., roof basket is 40 lbs., spare tire/rim is probably pushing 60 lbs., rear cargo carrier weighs 150 lbs. unloaded, then another 100+ lbs. in the carrier itself. With all that weight I'd be permanently riding on the stops/helpers which is surely not their intended purpose.

I need stiffer springs or a supplemental system of some kind.

[blacksambo]

You have less than the specified 475lbs of rear-axel load the truck was designed for (you are at 460lbs , if I added right), and there is a safety margin of ata least 10% (unless the weight of the gas throws something off?). I'd guess you've got enough stock suspension to handle it. Try the OEM spring helpers in place with your load at home first. It only takes 15 minutes to install them. (Maybe get a new set from Merlin if your's are older/ tired.) If this doesn't work, get some air bags. But on paper the OEM set up should really work. At any rate, I'd have to award you the die-hard super VX'er of the year award for all your enthusiastic use of your vehicle.

[vt_maverick]

Might have found a snag in the air bag plan... my VX is in the shop getting some new O2 sensors so I can't go look at this myself. What does the spring seat look like on our VX's? Is there a hole for the valve to stick down through? Take a look at the instructions here:

http://www.catalograck.com/imgVD/AIL/MN-131.pdf

I know they say Escort/Lynx/Tracker/Sidekick/X90/Vitara/Grand Vitara/XL-7 but this is the same part # they have listed for our VX's. As you can see in the diagrams, if there isn't already a hole in our coil spring seat we'd be required to drill a 3/4" hole to allow the valve stem to stick down through. Can anybody verify what our coil spring seats look like?

[JoFotoz]

Mav...there is a hole.

Its about the size of a nickel.....I run coil retainers through it.


There is also clearance fore and aft of the seat above the axle.

Jo

[vt_maverick]

Thanks Jo!

[PK]

You need to remember that it is not necessarily the total load here, but where that load is placed.
That hitch mounted carrier puts the load way back outside the suspension, so as well as the load, it has a multipierer effect as a lever arm.
Get rid of the hitch mounted carrier and buy a trailer, and the problem goes away.
Replace the OEM spring helpers, and the problem is reduced, but still not good.
Upgrade the rear suspension to accept the load and it will be okay loaded, but crap unloaded.

From my personal point of view it is an easy decision - buy a trailer.
But I can back a trailer so it is no big deal - others might want to avoid that.

PK

[Ldub]

Get rid of the hitch mounted carrier and buy a trailer, and the problem goes away.
Replace the OEM spring helpers, and the problem is reduced, but still not good.
Upgrade the rear suspension to accept the load and it will be okay loaded, but crap unloaded.

DING.DING.DING...:yes:

For a little bit more, you can get something you can use for other purposes...:thumbup:

From my personal point of view it is an easy decision - buy a trailer.
But I can back a trailer so it is no big deal - others might want to avoid that.

PK

I'm bring'n the trailer nex yr bro...:yes:

Wether I've got a load or not...:laughing:

We'll give ya a go in the "short-short" category...:naughty:

[VXorado]

You could always get 919 coil springs and chop em' shorter. That's what I did to reduce lift but keep the stiffer springs. The shorter 919s work great but I need retainers to keep them seated on the trails.

On that note...


Mav...there is a hole.

Its about the size of a nickel.....I run coil retainers through it.

Jo

Do you have the retainers from indy and if so, how well do they work? I'm thinking about ordering a set today.

[JoFotoz]

By "retainers" I mean......



Do you have the retainers from indy and if so, how well do they work? I'm thinking about ordering a set today.

...a modified coil restraining system.

And by "modified coil restraining system" I mean.....

...big arse ZIP TIES!

Obviously not from Indy...and they work GREAT!
(Cheap too...:p )

I spat a coil out the back a few years ago, and this was a 'field fix'...

...that has never needed upgrading :thumbup:


Jo

[VXorado]

By "retainers" I mean......



...a modified coil restraining system.

And by "modified coil restraining system" I mean.....

...big arse ZIP TIES!

Obviously not from Indy...and they work GREAT!
(Cheap too...:p )

I spat a coil out the back a few years ago, and this was a 'field fix'...

...that has never needed upgrading :thumbup:


Jo


:laughing:

I was just thinking... $40 for a piece of bent metal. Zip ties are definitely a cheaper alternative.

[JoFotoz]

Exactly...:thumbup:


:laughing:

I was just thinking... $40 for a piece of bent metal. Zip ties are definitely a cheaper alternative.

I have a couple of them on the bottom of each coil.....
.....and they do the job just fine.

And as you say..$40...or $0.40.

jo

[blacksambo]

I don't know what kind of shocks you're running but the do make over the shock type coils? Just a thought.

[vt_maverick]

Well I went ahead and ordered the air lift this afternoon, should be here sometime around the middle of next week. Unfortunately I'll be on my way to Phoenix when that happens, so it'll probably be the week after (same week we leave for Moab :eek:) that I get to play with it. :(

Nothing like never-ending pressure to keep you motivated. :)

[VXorado]

Nothing like never-ending pressure to keep you motivated. :)

It's not fun unless you're working on a last minute install. ;)

The airbags are a good choice and they should work well for your long trip.

[vt_maverick]

Okay so I've been super busy preparing and then actually traveling to Moab so I've been remiss in giving you guys a review of the Air Lift 1000 Kit. Without further ado, here we go:

I love them. They are amazing. I have absolutely no reservations. :thumbup:

They level the suspension back to the factory rake, limit what the Air Lift folks call "porpoising" (see-sawing when you hit bumps), and otherwise make the ride extremely smooth when carrying significant rear weight. They survived the bumps in Moab without a problem, and the installation is super clean. Here are some pics:

Passenger air bag:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3301/IMG_0645.JPG

Driver's side:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3301/IMG_06491.JPG

Valve and airline that feeds air bags. Tom's new hitch requires you to remove the lower cladding bolts, so the recess made a convenient mounting point for the valve.
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3301/IMG_0646.JPG

There's a tee connector right behind the brake line in this picture that links both air bags with the valve in the rear cladding. The tee allows you to fill both bags simultaneously and balances the air pressure between the two bags. This comes in handy when you hit hard bumps with only one side of the VX, because rather than potentially popping the air bag the excess pressure is pushed to the other uncompressed bag. Pretty cool...
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3301/IMG_0648.JPG

As we discussed on a previous page, these won't eliminate the hard bumps created by the stock bump stops / spring helpers. But if you ever tow or carry significant weight in/off the back of your VX you can't go wrong with these IMHO.

Questions?

[vt_maverick]

Forgot probably the most important picture: the side profile with the air lift installed. Before the installation the front would be much higher than the rear under full load, whereas in this picture you can clearly see the balance created by the air lift.
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/3300/IMG_0577_1_.JPG

[deermagnet]

That kit looks like it's made for your exact issue.

Mark

I'm glad I could help ya out. So how is the ride changed with no extra weight? Is this something we could all use for daily driving with the stock bump helpers removed?

Mark

[vt_maverick]

The air bags are designed to fit inside the coil springs under zero load, so without the extra weight the rake is exactly the same as stock. The ride feel is directly influenced by your PSI setting, so the lower the PSI the more you'll bounce over bumps. I would think the bump stops would be unnecessary if you keep the PSI @ 30 or above, but certainly I wouldn't take that to the bank. I can tell you that you bounce more but not as hard with cut stops (which I have) so when you combine those with this air lift the ride is smooth as silk.

This may be the perfect way to balance the increased roll that blacksambo always points out as a disadvantage to cutting the stops.

[tom4bren]

Ash,

Both bags have a mark on them in your pix (at lower coils). Is that just an accumulation of Moab dirt or does it look like wear points?

Tom

[JAMAS]

This might be my next purchase

[vt_maverick]

It's just dirt. The installation instructions tell you to put a dab of grease on and around the bottom of the bag where it will rub the coil spring to eliminate wear, so what you're seeing is dirt caked on the grease.

[tom4bren]

It's just dirt.

Better save it. That Moab cinnemon (sp?) is worth it's weight in gold to us East Coasters.

[vt_maverick]

Anybody else try these yet? I'm so happy with mine that I'm having a set put on my wife's Axiom this week. :thumbup:

[VXorado]

How's the ride quality with them inflated? Do you leave them slightly inflated for everyday driving?

I'm rockin' stock coil springs now and wouldn't mind the extra stiffness for camping/hauling. I'm worried frequent coil spring flex offroad would ruin the bags. Then again, I know they survived your Moab trip :bwgy:

[vt_maverick]

I keep them at about 10 PSI when I'm not hauling and she drives like a dream. I live on this winding up and down mountain road and there are areas where you'd bottom out hard even on cut bump stops at speed. But now I can hit those hill transitions at 55-60+ and she just hunkers down and digs in. Absolutely amazing.

[papi007bulgaria]

Hello :)
Bought a VX recently and definitely looking into the airlift 1000 kit to get a creature comfort ride out of the it.
As it is almost 2015 , i would like to ask if this kit is still working properly? I'm in Bulgaria and i'd like to know if it's worth the hassle to get the kit? Especially since it's 80 USD at the moment, and all other rear spring solutions i've looked in to locally are at least triple the price!

Thank you!