Credit card question?

[zadam123]

To make a long story short here I go

I bought the rancho 9 way adjustable shocks in dec and since I bought them the front shocks have not held the pressure according to the gauge, The store that installed them is in NJ and I live in NY, ½ hr away and $6 toll, I have brought my car back to him 4 times within 3 months for the same problem, there was a lot of unanswered phone calls and messages and waiting for parts and him telling me he’s talking to rancho and neither one of them can figure out the problem, but since he changed everything from the lines to shocks to gauges that the only thing left was the compressor so he order that for me


There were also lies of him saying he’s talking to rancho on the phone and both him and mike cant figure out what the problem was but when I called rancho they said there was no mike that works there, and gave me the # to another rancho place close to my house to bring my car to,

I did that and he found the a few problems in 2 minutes, first of all he ran the plastic lines around my radiator, Kind of stupid don’t you think, he also found a cracked shock in the front and said I should bring it back to the first guy since he would have to charge me for a new shock and install,

I called the first guy and told him to stop playing games and order me a new front shock cause mine was cracked and he should have seen the crack. He order a new shock and installed it and told me that everything is now working great but to my surprise It was still not holding the pressure, I quickly asked him what the *&#@ is going on and why are you telling me its fixed when its not. He said he don’t know what’s wrong and to bring it back next week,

Needless to say when I got home I called my CC and disputed the charges for the shocks,
My Question is that when I fought the charges on my credit card I was told that he has a month or 2 to answer my denial of payment and if he does they would make a decision then if I would have to pay, well 2 months later I was awarded the decision that my credit card would not be charged and the charge was credited back to my account, Now I though this was done with but 3 months later after the decision he called me and left 2 messages on my phone that I was going to have a warrant out for my arrest for grand larcenary, the next message said that he spoke to his attorney and he was going to press charges against me for theft by deception, he also said that not only would I be arrested but I would have to pay for his attorney fees as well and I had to the end of the week to call him or return his shocks, (which I no longer have cause they were changed by the other mechanic)

I spoke to the police dept there and they told me that he’s lying again and I cant be arrested for that however he may be able to take me to court. I also called up my credit card and asked why he is calling me since he had every opportunity to fix my shocks and put in a dispute with the CC company to pay them, which he failed to do.

Now is where it gets interesting, Its been about a month now and im not in jail ( i guess according to him im on the lamb LOL)This guy had the nerve to charge my credit card AGAIN for the price of the shocks, 9 MONTHS LATER, AND AFTER THE CC COMPANY AWARDED ME THE DECISION (and he called me a crook)

Is this legal? And since he wants to play more games if its not, can I now press charges him for unauthorized use of my credit card?

I did call the CC company and dispute the charges and told them what the situation was to which they told me he shouldn’t have done that but weren’t sure if it was illegal, I am going through the process now of disputing the new charges

Thanks for listining, I just had to get that off my chest.

adam

[Apostle]

not a lawyer here, just common sense.


You purchased something from someone, they installed it, you payed. you were not happy with install, kept the item (even though other mechanic took out) and took your money back. Theft


Second, he charged your card a second time, without your consent, credit card fraud.


from your story, your both in the wrong imho

Edit: I would contact the guy and tell him you will pay for parts but not for labor, and if he says no, explain the credit card fraud thing and tell him you all are even, after parts of course

and you also want a complete list of what he is charging you for.

[Hotsauce]

OK, I am a business owner that accepts credit card payments, so I look at this from both sides, and I agree with Apostle basically.

You purchased material, and were not satisfied with it, yet you retain it in your possesion. You must either return the material, or pay for it. He has the right to bring a complaint against you for this.

Mike may be the person at his local warehouse, he may not buy direct from Rancho, but rather from one of their master distributors.

The second charge may not be his doing, it may actually be a reversal of the credit car companies decision based on your refusal to return the merchandise. When you initially protest a charge, the credit card company will immediatly syphon the amount in question out of the merchants account. This amount is eventually awarded to whomever they agree with.

If he did run the charge a second time on his own, then the credit card company can determine from their records if the card # was entered by hand, or swiped in. They will request a copy of both the sales recipt, and a signed copy of the card slip. His failure to produce either will cause them to find against him. It will be interesting if your signiture is forged on the 2nd recipt.

What should you do?

You need to decide if you wish to keep the material. If so, do nothing, you are even.

If not, you need to return it immediatly, and have the credit card company reverse the ssecond charge. I would also ask the credit card company to issue you a replacement card with a different number to prevent any further issues with this person, or any other who may have been given this number.

John C.

[Raque Thomas]

OK, another merchant version - if your credit card company reversed the charges, that means the merchant didn't respond to your inquiry (the most likely situation), or didn't respond in a meaningful way (meaning he/she didn't prove that you owed the amount). If what you are saying is true (and I must assume that it is) - then stick by your guns. #1 it is unlikely that the shop is going to come after you for the cost of the shocks, as the cost of litigation is much higher than the cost of the shocks, #2 if he does come after you, it sounds like you have an excellent chance of prevailing-given the facts in this matter.
The bad news is that ANYBODY can take you to court for ANY reason they want. The extra bad news is that common sense doesn't always prevail in a court of law. But given what you have told us here - which I must assume is the whole story - you should prevail. The bad news is that if the merchant is stupid enough to press charges (I say stupid enough because even if he wins, the legal fees will exceed the judgement), you will spend a consinderable amount of money defending this matter. My advice? Stand your ground, tell him the facts - let him talk to the other shop that made the final repairs, and tell him you do not intend to pay him for work that was not done completely/to your satisfaction.

[zadam123]

Originally posted by Hotsauce

You purchased material, and were not satisfied with it, yet you retain it in your possesion. You must either return the material, or pay for it. He has the right to bring a complaint against you for this.

Mike may be the person at his local warehouse, he may not buy direct from Rancho, but rather from one of their master distributors.

The second charge may not be his doing, it may actually be a reversal of the credit car companies decision based on your refusal to return the merchandise. When you initially protest a charge, the credit card company will immediatly syphon the amount in question out of the merchants account. This amount is eventually awarded to whomever they agree with.


John C.
first part
I did tell him that if he cant fix it to take it out of my car but he insisted that he can fix it so i payed the tolls, used my gass and was without a car for 5 days due to the fact that i had to bring the car to him the night before and pick it up the next day since i live far away. He never offerd to pay my tolls , gass or time.

second,
rancho must not be that big and i spoke to the person in the department that deals with tecnical and install issues and
there are only 2 people there, by the way mike aint one of them, so if he is asking the sales lady how to install the shocks I think he deserves what he gets :D

third
I sopke to the CC company and they said tehy awarded me the decision so it wasnt a reversal, they said he probably used the old authorization #

Now i conceder myself pretty reasonable, but i just dont think its fair what this guy did to me by lyin and wasting a lot of time, He had every opertunity to fight the matter in the alloted time that was given to him and for him to do this now almost a year later shows how incompatant he is. I gave him more than enough chances to fix the problem and all he did was tell me it was fixed and it wasant, told him take out the shocks and reinstall my old ones and he said he can fix the problem and then he had 2 months to dispute the CC refund which he just let pass,

so i had to pay for another set of shocks and install , I never thought that any of this would happen cause the CC company told me that i won, so i never asked for the old shocks back.
Now i maybe wrong but I dont feel that i should have to pay twice
for his stupitidy.

adam:sady:

[SGT.BATGUANO]

Not to flame, but there ARE 2 sides to every story. Just to be fair, Why didn't you give the shocks 1 back to guy 1 after you had guy 2 install new shocks 2 ? I know the answer to this, but you should accept a little culpability in the matter . Give the guy a check for 1/2 the price of the shocks to cover his cost, write "paid in full" in the memo line and close the matter.

[Hotsauce]

If the merchant takes you to small claims court, which a business CAN do you are liable for all court costs in the judgement.

I have done this several times to customers several times who have written bad checks. Often I have gotten default judgements because of no shows. The judgements have allowed me to lein houses, and freeze bank accounts. No, not the same as getting my money, but I will get it eventually. With interest.

I don't think a NJ merchant can take you to small claims court in NY though, thats probably the only reason you don't have a summons right now.

He may have to take you to regular court.

John C.

[zadam123]

OK

this is my question

I DID pay the merchant , Its the CC company that stoped the charges, I konw it was by my request but he had every opertunity to fight the stop payment, And he didnt. He signed up for the CC and knows the rules that apply, he was also sent letters by the CC company stating there was a chargeback and he did not answer the letters in the alloted time, So dont you think that his dispute is with the CC company?

adam

[Hotsauce]

NO, his dispute is with YOU. The credit card company is just the agent of the payment. You're getting away with it only because its too difficult to chase you accross state lines.

The credit card company reversed the charge at your direction. You can't stand back now and point at them like its not your doing.

I no longer accept American Express due to a similar chargeback.

A customer purchased material, installed it for his client without showing it to them first. After the installation the client disapproved of the design and he tried to return it, damaged, and wrenchmarked. I refused him a refund because it was not in new condition. The credit card company deducted the amount from my bank account without even notifying me. I sent the requested copies of the bills, both by fax, and return recipt. The recipt came back unsigned. I resent it with complaint that it was unsigned.

American Express REFUSED the letter, then found against me for failure to answer.

Bottom line is this: You have the material, and it is not paid for.

John C.



John C.

[WyrreJ]

Actually, from the sound of it, the materials are in a trash bin somewhere. John, even in your story, your dispute was with Amex for refusing to accept your letter of contest, and other than suing Amex (a hopeless cause for the little guy, and even a lot of medium sized guys) you did the best you could by severing business ties with Amex.

My advice is to sit tight, say nothing to the original guy, don't take his phone calls, don't send him anything. If he is going to sue you, wait for it and do nothing else in the meantime, although you might want to consult with a lawyer or two so that you are prepared should it happen. Although contemplating going to law school, that is as close as I am to being a lawyer, but it is my understanding that in some cases making a partial payment (money or goods) can be used against you in court as acknowledging responsibility. So, you think you are the good guy, trying to do the right thing, and the other guy uses it as a wedge to get more out of you than reasonable third party would consider fair.

[Hotsauce]

Originally posted by WyrreJ
Actually, from the sound of it, the materials are in a trash bin somewhere. John, even in your story, your dispute was with Amex for refusing to accept your letter of contest, and other than suing Amex (a hopeless cause for the little guy, and even a lot of medium sized guys) you did the best you could by severing business ties with Amex.


No. My dispute was with the customer. The credit card is just his method of payment. Same situation when someone stops payment on a check, the dispute isn't with the bank. The responsibility for payment is with the original customer, not the bank or credit card. Just because a credit card company agrees to reverse a charge does not relieve the customer of their responsibility to pay for material, or service

In my case, as soon as amex showed their true colors I had the customer served with a summons.

John C.

[zadam123]

If that is the case what does payment protection mean, If you cancel a check thats diffrent from a credit card cause there supposed to protect and insure your purchases. Kind of like an additional warranty

adam

[zadam123]

Originally posted by Hotsauce
The credit card company deducted the amount from my bank account without even notifying me. I sent the requested copies of the bills, both by fax, and return recipt. The recipt came back unsigned. I resent it with complaint that it was unsigned.

American Express REFUSED the letter, then found against me for failure to answer.

Bottom line is this: You have the material, and it is not paid for.

John C.



John C.


I can see your point , if the CC company cancelled the money without sending you a letter i would be pissed too, but he did recieve a letter ,

also bottom line is also i did tell him to replace the shocks and he lied to me telling me he is waiting for parts to replace my compressor ( i know this is a lie cause i spoke to ranceo almost 2 months later asking them if it could be the compressor since he told me mike from rancho said it may be, and even if it was rancho said it would never take over 2 weeks to get and here it was over a month.) also i called him several times leaving messages for him to call me and i got no responce,
now you may say he didnt know my # but i left it for him several times and he even called me when he said he was pressing charges which was another lie.

MAN I HATE LIARS!:madg2: :mado2: :madp2: :madb2: :madr2: :mady2:

espacaly when its a business trying to put down the buyer.

I know thats not your case john. like i said before if the CC company didnt send you a letter and cancelled the transaction i would also go after them

adam

[WyrreJ]

Well, I went looking all over the net and there are tons of sites the tell consumers how to initiate a chargeback, but very, very few that cover the merchant side. The best I could come up with is the following from the Maryland Attorny General's office at:

http://www.oag.state.md.us/consumer/tip37.htm

"Also, the merchant has the right under the law to try to collect from you directly or take you to court--even if your card issuer grants the chargeback."

That was dated 1995. I did find a mailinglist with a bunch of merchants complaining in 1997 that the federal laws, particularly the Fair Credit Billing Act (FCBA) make it way too easy for a fraudulent uses of chargeback, and in all their discussion no one mentioned suing the consumer directly. I tried reading the FCBA but it is total lawyerese and thus meaningless to the layman. One item that I got from a couple of places is that the FCBA tends to override any state laws (particularly for inter-state disputes) except when the state laws are more pro-consumer (the common example is that the FCBA allows only 60 days from statement date to dispute, but if the local state law allows 90 days then you get the extra 30 days automagically).

[johnnyapollo]

Hey Adam,

You should probably have your cc number changed until this matter is resolved, so he doesn't keep making charges to the account. Just a thought.

-- John

[Dallas4u]

Originally posted by johnnyapollo
Hey Adam,

You should probably have your cc number changed until this matter is resolved, so he doesn't keep making charges to the account. Just a thought.

-- John

Ahh, exactly what I was going to say!

[zadam123]

Changing the CC # was the first thing i did when i saw the charge again, Knowing him he may keep using my card.

thanks

adam

[zadam123]

Originally posted by SGT.BATGUANO
Not to flame, but there ARE 2 sides to every story. Just to be fair, Why didn't you give the shocks 1 back to guy 1 after you had guy 2 install new shocks 2 ? I know the answer to this, but you should accept a little culpability in the matter . Give the guy a check for 1/2 the price of the shocks to cover his cost, write "paid in full" in the memo line and close the matter.

The reason i didnt give the shocks back was that i was already awarded the credit and was told by the cc company that this situation was resolved, also The guy from the first place never returned my calls for over a month, so I didnt think i would need broken parts if the situation was resolved, only 3 months later he decided to call me up and start threatining me about being arrested , Ha another lie.The last thing he said to me in March was ill call you in about a week when the part comes in.

adam

[Moncha]

The fun part about this is that it's a mess!
Most importantly, no one is going to jail at this point at least.. It's CIVIL law matter. Both of you entered into a contract which takes it out of the criminal justice dug out. The only way that there could be any type of jail time is if there is some sort of contempt of court. (Not doing what the judge said to do) Or some unforseen crime, like the fraud.. Must have proof
Usually, if something was not done to a customers satisfaction, the other party must be given a chance to rectify the problem. There is no set time limit for the rectification, according to most states it falls under the term of reasonable time.. (Who decides what's reasonable?... The Judge)
When the case goes to court the judge may say to party 2 that the work was not done correctly and after an attempt to make right, the job is still crap. Then he'll order that the parts be returned, and money be returned. In most cases, it'll be the money minus labor costs.
The CC company can do the ol' charge back thing but it is usually under the pretense that the goods be returned.
The big winder here is that you can pretty much forget about going to jail, either of you. Unless there is something else.. Like the secondary charge.. Shame, on him...

Big lesson learned, ALWAYS do research on the one to do the work and even if it's a pain.. DRAW up a contract spelling out what is expected from both sides. Stay away from hasty deals as they aren't a good as they seem and neither is the price in the long run.