Scary Stuff

[FlyingV77]

The US gov is detaining a Marine veteran... for his patriotic face book posts. His name is Brandon Raub.

[rsteinmetz70112]

According to a Fox news report

"Police -- acting under a state law that allows emergency, temporary psychiatric commitments upon the recommendation of a mental health professional -- took Raub to the John Randolph Medical Center in Hopewell. He was not charged with any crime."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/20/outcry-after-military-veteran-detained-for-anti-government-facebook-posts/#ixzz249WtBWF1


"In one message earlier this month according to authorities, Raub wrote: "Sharpen my axe; I'm here to sever heads.""

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/20/outcry-after-military-veteran-detained-for-anti-government-facebook-posts/#ixzz249W5tb2F

Other posts seem to have been of a 9/11 truther type.

[spaceCADETzoom]

The US gov is detaining a Marine veteran... for his patriotic face book posts. His name is Brandon Raub.

"Patriotic" is reaching.

I think it would be scarier if the US Gov (a uniformed Marine, for example) were to make public statements on 9/11 conspiracies, among many other questionable topics. Last I checked, this wasn't a Banana Republic where we have military coups.

If it were a private fb post, or by a simple college student, I defend the right. In this case... Move along, nothing to see here.

[Y33TREKker]

Maybe I'm missing something, but a few things seem a little bass-akwards with this story.

Someone suggesting U.S. government complicity in the 9/11 attacks would probably be among the last types of people that Fox News would actually be defending, except of course for the fact that NOW the administration in question just happens to be Democratic, a branch which Fox can never seem to find ANYTHING good to say about.

So I guess who cares if the guy made a comment on a public message board about sharpening an axe and severing heads, as long as Fox can use the incident in some way to demonize the existing (Democratic run) government, even if the "government" in question that is actually taking action seems to be more local than national in scope? But what difference do those kinds of details really make in the end...right?

I wonder how long it will take for this "new outrageous abuse of power by Obama" to make the email SPAM rounds.

[FlyingV77]

Ive been fallowing this story since about an hour after it happened. hes not the first one this has happen to ether.

"Sharpen my axe; I'm here to sever heads." Is a song lyric.

"Police -- acting under a state law that allows emergency, temporary psychiatric commitments upon the recommendation of a mental health professional -- took Raub to the John Randolph Medical Center in Hopewell. He was not charged with any crime."

The FBI, SS, and COPS made the determination, not a trained mental health professorial. Also, they took him straight to the hospital that was waiting for him, in a pre planed detention.

Check this one out too:
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/print-friendly/48845

[frankd14321]

Happens quite often to many individuals not just Military. My Best Friends Father was detained for no given reason for 2 years. His family was only allowed to see him once every 3 months, he lost his job, they almost lost everything they had. He was born in the US and was a 100% american. This was back in 2005 under a totally different administration. After 2 years he was let go, never given a reason, he is a construction worker that never uses a computer and doesn't even have a cell phone.

Just adding..

[vt_maverick]

The FBI, SS, and COPS made the determination, not a trained mental health professorial. Also, they took him straight to the hospital that was waiting for him, in a pre planed detention.


Directly from the linked article:

Col. Thierry Dupuis, the county police chief, said Raub was taken into custody upon the recommendation of mental health crisis intervention workers.


As a seperate comment: If the guy walked into a college (let's say, oh I don't know, Virginia Tech) and blows away 32 people, the public villifies the college and local law enforcement for ignoring warning signs and not forcing the shooter to get help. But apparently if government agencies act before a mass shooting it's a crazy overreach of power. Gotta love the irony.

[rsteinmetz70112]

Here is the statement made by the police:

Chesterfield Police assisted federal authorities in their efforts to interview Brandon J. Raub on Thursday, Aug. 16. After speaking to Raub, officers believed him to be in need of further evaluation. Chesterfield officers at the scene contacted Chesterfield Mental Health Crisis Intervention. Crisis workers recommended that police take Raub into custody and bring him in for evaluation. Chesterfield police took Raub into custody for evaluation in accordance with Virginia State Code § 37.2-808 Emergency custody. Raub was placed in handcuffs after he resisted officers' attempts to take him into custody. Raub was evaluated by a Chesterfield mental health official, who determined that he should be held under a temporary detention order and transported to John Randolph Medical Center for additional evaluation. Raub was not arrested and he faces no criminal charges in Chesterfield. As this is not a criminal matter, Chesterfield police have no further comment.

http://chesterfield.nbc12.com/news/news/84021-chesterfield-police-statement-brandon-raub

As far as
a pre planed detention do you think that calling to ask for guidance may have alerted them or that the officers in question said, "OK we're bringing him in."

[FlyingV77]

there were no mental heath experts on the scene, calling them was to cover there butts.

have you ever heard the term false flag attacks? its a very common and effective strategy, used to justify attacking and vilifying people or groups that are targets of a government, ours or fouren, that have done nothing wrong. (sometimes they are threats that cant be proven) I recognize this tactic, because i created and participated in false flag attacks against "threats" of the US from 1998-2004 wile serving in Army.

[JoFotoz]

A HUGE X2...



As a seperate comment: If the guy walked into a college (let's say, oh I don't know, Virginia Tech) and blows away 32 people, the public villifies the college and local law enforcement for ignoring warning signs and not forcing the shooter to get help. But apparently if government agencies act before a mass shooting it's a crazy overreach of power. Gotta love the irony.

Unfortunately the actions of a minority are impacting the majority.....
.

Freedom of speech is of course one of the corner stones of this country.
However, due the the actions of a few, we are very rapidly becoming
a "better safe than sorry" culture.

Its a pervasive trend that I don't see changing anytime soon.

Obviously this often breaks down along political bias...
....which is a shame.
Because frankly, given the 'climate'....I am a "better safe than sorry" proponent.

Jo

[Mile High VX]

And our friend Mr. Benjamin Franklin would say:

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

[rsteinmetz70112]

Leaping Conclusions abound.

None of us know what actually happened when Raub was interviewed. Perhaps the Police were concerned about his behavior and were just being cautions. Given that many police officers are military veterans they may have just been trying to look out for him.

[H3_VX]

Directly from the linked article:


As a seperate comment: If the guy walked into a college (let's say, oh I don't know, Virginia Tech) and blows away 32 people, the public villifies the college and local law enforcement for ignoring warning signs and not forcing the shooter to get help. But apparently if government agencies act before a mass shooting it's a crazy overreach of power. Gotta love the irony.

:yesy:

In this day and age its better to put anyone in doubt under intense scrutiny IMHO!

[vt_maverick]

And our friend Mr. Benjamin Franklin would say:

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Safety may be temporary but death is definitely permanent.

I tend to lean more towards liberty and freedom over Big Brother, but my views are "evolving" as Mitt might say, now that I have children of my own.

Tough issue.

[Scott Harness]

And our friend Mr. Benjamin Franklin would say:

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

X2:yeso:

[VXR]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

X3:yesb:

[VXR]

Another good one:

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty -Thomas Jefferson

[bearandbee]

I'm shocked that so many are ready to sacrifice the constitution and freedom

[Y33TREKker]

I'd personally rather wait until more objective facts are in regarding one possibly biased story before I jump on any bandwagon that is suggesting the government is trying to take away my liberties.

[bearandbee]

What's left to take away? Between the patriot act and ndaa there is nothing left.

[JoFotoz]

I agree...


I'd personally rather wait until more objective facts are in regarding one possibly biased story before I jump on any bandwagon that is suggesting the government is trying to take away my liberties.

......with the codicil that takes into account REAL personal safety.

Next time you fly...enter a court...go to a game...

...ponder personal safety, ponder peace of mind.

I am not a fan of the erosion of liberty/freedom..etc.

But I am a ( huge) fan of living without fear.

It's a huge Catch 22...

No easy answer...

Jo

[Scott Larson]

What's left to take away? Between the patriot act and ndaa there is nothing left.

Tell that to the Russians, or the Chinese, or the Syrians, or the Iranians, or the...(Fill in the blank.) :slap:

[Y33TREKker]

I just think that learning more context surrounding the "strident anti-government" messages, and especially the "sharpen my axe..." comment would be helpful for starters.

A person makes such comments in a public forum, aren't a few raised red flags to be expected? It'd be different if the guy had said that stuff in his garage over a few beers with some like-minded buddies, but he apparently didn't.

[rsteinmetz70112]

And nobody knows what he said in the interview that prompted police to detain him.

I've been in a situation where a fellow student went over the edge. It was a sudden, unexpected, very uncomfortable and stressful situation. He was taken to a health care facility for evaluation. Within 24 hours he was dead. There was no political agenda only a person in crisis.

[JoFotoz]

This thread is very interesting...


The US go is detaining a Marine veteran...
....for his patriotic face book posts. His name is Brandon Rub.


...but we, ( certainly me included!) have strayed from the genesis.


To wit....

What is "patriotic".


Not a term easily defined these days....and often, simply banal party line rhetoric.


Frankly.....it's uber SUBJECTIVE.

Is it Patriotic to squeal on your neighbor...if you have a REAL FEAR?
?
Is it Patriotic to bitch about getting searched at the airport...
...but ya fly with a sense of calm???
?

Back to subjective IMO!

And , here...this will ensue >....:_brickwal :_mecker: :_brickwal


Jo

[rsteinmetz70112]

Completely agree.

This thread started with a POLITICAL STATEMENT, not a statement of concern for a man in trouble.

[VXR]

Completely agree.

This thread started with a POLITICAL STATEMENT, not a statement of concern for a man in trouble.

and???

[FlyingV77]

He is in trouble, and that worries me. They are going to pump him full of drugs and try to get a false confession for something.

[Scott Larson]

And you know this how??

[Y33TREKker]

and???
X2

This thread was started with a political statement, which was then directly followed by a second political statement from Fox News (an obvious 24/7 anti-democratic reporting "news" channel) masquerading as a faux source of legitimate moral outrage regarding a possible imagined loss of personal liberties.

While the second post may in fact have been intended as simply a statement of concern for a man in trouble, it's still somewhat disingenuous given what most know about Fox News. So rather than be a source for future debate, maybe it'd be best to simply view this instance as an illustration of the importance of choosing sources for backing up a persons' own personal sentiments?

[Osteomata]

He is in trouble, and that worries me. They are going to pump him full of drugs and try to get a false confession for something.
Conspiracist alert. Maybe you should brag some more about your supersecret false flag covert ops experience.

[technocoy]

This guy seems a bit disturbed to me. Given all the issues with non-treatment of post active duty military for things like PTSD and depression, etc, they may have either saved his life or someone else's... Or... They may find he's just a bit angry about his situation and let him go.

You can't expect everyone on earth to know that those were the lyrics to a song. I certainly didn't.

The sad thing is we just dump our troops back into daily life instead of caring for them on their return. There should be many more resources and treatment options available for veterans.

There is a lot that happens in folks minds when they have been to war, in a small unit, always expecting death could be right around a corner. Crazy ideas can fester and grow in closed, irrational conditions like that and then we just bring em back and say, "There ya go pal, good luck and enjoy that civilian job hunt!"

My brother came back from two tours as a Marine and let me tell you. He is a fundamentally different person. That's strange in psychology terms because it's much like a mental break. At his core, he is not the same man he was.

Anyway, I hope this man gets some help and we don't see him disappear down the rabbit hole some are imagining or worse yet turn up having harmed himself or someone else.

[rsteinmetz70112]

This thread was started with a political statement, which was then directly followed by a second political statement from Fox News (an obvious 24/7 anti-democratic reporting "news" channel) masquerading as a faux source of legitimate moral outrage regarding a possible imagined loss of personal liberties.

While the second post may in fact have been intended as simply a statement of concern for a man in trouble, it's still somewhat disingenuous given what most know about Fox News. So rather than be a source for future debate, maybe it'd be best to simply view this instance as an illustration of the importance of choosing sources for backing up a persons' own personal sentiments?

Since I was the one who posted the second statement. It was intended to correct what I thought was an biased version of the story. I chose the Fox story from among several very similar stores on multiple outlets, precisely because I felt the Fox was likely to be perceived as more sympathetic to his views, not because of any views I hold. In fact I think the Fox story was either based on an AP story or was picked up by AP because so many of the other reports are so similar.

In any event yesterday a judge ordered the Brandon J Raub to be released immediately, so I assume he is home or with family by now.

I wish him well.

[vt_maverick]

I'm shocked that so many are ready to sacrifice the constitution and freedom


What's left to take away? Between the patriot act and ndaa there is nothing left.


Tell that to the Russians, or the Chinese, or the Syrians, or the Iranians, or the...(Fill in the blank.) :slap:

X2 - I had a political science professor in college who was from Bulgaria, spoke 5 languages fluently, and had lived and taught in several different countries. During one of our first lectures he drew a line from one end of a 6' whiteboard to the other and asked us to mark where we thought Democrats and Republicans were on the left/liberal to right/conservative continuum. I think we had them a foot or two apart when he erased both of them and drew them about an inch apart in roughly the middle of the board (and then proceeded to add communists, socialists, religious fundamentalists, etc further apart). He then proceeded to explain to us how the rest of the world (and Europe in particular) is amused at what a big deal we make out of our (relatively) minor disagreements.

I understand the slippery slope argument but sometimes I wonder if growing up in such a free and open country hasn't made us hyper-sensitive to even the most minor incursions. After all, the Declaration of Independence lists "life" and "the pursuit of happiness" alongside liberty as unalienable rights. If we uphold liberty at the expense of the other two are we not missing the point?

[Y33TREKker]

Since I was the one who posted the second statement. It was intended to correct what I thought was an biased version of the story.

I chose the Fox story from among several very similar stores on multiple outlets, precisely because I felt the Fox was likely to be perceived as more sympathetic to his views, not because of any views I hold.
That was the catch though, you say your comment was intended to correct "what you thought was a biased version of the story".....But like the rest of us, you also didn't know what the actual story even was, and was the reason I suggested that a person choosing their sources wisely may serve to nip these debates in the bud from getting off topic in the first place...not to mention the fact that the source you chose would have by proven nature been saying the exact same thing as what was being implied in the first post you say you were trying to correct.

In any event yesterday a judge ordered the Brandon J Raub to be released immediately, so I assume he is home or with family by now.

I wish him well.
If that was simply a statement of support, an not an effort to spin the judges order into an implication that the guy was being held by the "government" for no legitimate reason, I'm sure we would all agree.

[Y33TREKker]

This guy seems a bit disturbed to me. Given all the issues with non-treatment of post active duty military for things like PTSD and depression, etc, they may have either saved his life or someone else's... Or... They may find he's just a bit angry about his situation and let him go.

You can't expect everyone on earth to know that those were the lyrics to a song. I certainly didn't.

The sad thing is we just dump our troops back into daily life instead of caring for them on their return. There should be many more resources and treatment options available for veterans.

There is a lot that happens in folks minds when they have been to war, in a small unit, always expecting death could be right around a corner. Crazy ideas can fester and grow in closed, irrational conditions like that and then we just bring em back and say, "There ya go pal, good luck and enjoy that civilian job hunt!"

My brother came back from two tours as a Marine and let me tell you. He is a fundamentally different person. That's strange in psychology terms because it's much like a mental break. At his core, he is not the same man he was.

Anyway, I hope this man gets some help and we don't see him disappear down the rabbit hole some are imagining or worse yet turn up having harmed himself or someone else.
Well said. The current time frames being experienced (some being close to a year in length) by MANY veterans for merely hearing whether their claims for treatment are going to be accepted by local veterans administrations (let alone how long it may then take to get the treatment itself) is a current national disgrace, and that's coming from someone who has never served in the military. I was considering the Air Force when I came of age, but my dad (an Army veteran) suggested that my particular talents would be better utilized elsewhere.

Rachel Maddows' book Drift - The Unmooring of American Military Power is an informative look into just how far away the people who run our current military have strayed from the original concepts for a militia, and the responsibilities we should have towards that militia, that our founding fathers had in mind.