front end grind

[evillecutter]

so after replacing my idle control valve, fuel pressure regulator, and throttle position sensor (amongst other things) i finally have the vx idling fine and running good enginewise - so i went on a short roat trip yesterday to test it out (maybe 40 miles) - the motor ran great and car drove five - it didnt feel weird at all... until i get home and turn into the garage - i have to make a sharp right turn into my drive then an immediate left to get into the garage and i hear a horrible sound like metal grinding - i back it up out of the garage and drive it around the block to see whats up and the sound continues around every turn and even at low speeds while going straight - its def coming from the front end but from which side i have no idea - sounds like the middle but thats what scares me - anyways, i put it in low gear to see what it would do and when i would slowly accelerete it sounds like a baseball card in bicycle spokes - this is terrible - the first thing im thinking is my cv joints or a wheel bearing but im scared its something wrong with the tod or abs - no warning lights whatsoever and it went into low gear fine other than making the noise worse - brakes feel fine in a straight line but could be making it worse around corners - got underneath and nothing looks broken or bent and both cv boots look fine no signs of leaking or tears - any ideas on how i could diagnose the problem without bringing it into the shop? maybe the diff needs service? i appreciate any suggestions...

[Triathlete]

Barakes? Stuck caliper? Also check that a small rock has not become stuck between the brake disc and cover.

[evillecutter]

ive had a caliper stick before on a previous vehicle and i didnt feel like this - its like a binding or grinding noise but only while turning or straightening out after a turn - the sharper the turn the worse it seems to be - either way i will check the brakes when i take the wheels off - prob gonna be a few days before i can really have time to properly work on it but i figured i would get as many suggestions as possible beforehand

[vt_maverick]

At the risk of getting a "DUH" in return... have you checked to make sure your tires aren't rubbing the cladding?

[Scott Larson]

Sounds to me like one of your sharp turns may have broken one of your front axle CV joints. A broken drive flange (cage) or drive ball will make all kinds of racket when turning and make a distinctive clicking sound when going straight. Just a thought...:_confused Best of luck!

[Scott Larson]

At the risk of getting a "DUH" in return... have you checked to make sure your tires aren't rubbing the cladding?

You won't get a "Duh" from me, that's a good place to look!! :yeso:

[tom4bren]

It sounds like you've already adopted the KISS principal for diagnostics ... good.

I agree that brakes aren't likely but go ahead and pull the front wheels & inspect them since it's easy.

While each side of the front is up in the air, try & jiggle the wheel up & down to make sure your bearings are good.

I'd also drain the front pumpkin to see if anything bad comes out with the oil. Remember though to remove the fill plug first - if you can't get it out then you shouldn't drain the oil because you won't be able to fill it back up. Also keep in mind that there can be significant gunk built up in the pumpkin so you may need to probe the drain with a piece of wire or a zip tie to get the oil to come out.

I'm kinda leaning towards one of the outer CVs gave up the ghost but when mine did that, it literally exploded.

Keep us posted on your progress & if we think of anything else, we'll let you know.

[evillecutter]

stock wheels and stock size tires no accidents wheels not rubbing (its a metal sound not plastic and rubber) - any walkthroughs on checking/refilling the "pumpkin"? - tried the search on changing diff fluid but came up empty as far as how-tos go

[evillecutter]

Sounds to me like one of your sharp turns may have broken one of your front axle CV joints. A broken drive flange (cage) or drive ball will make all kinds of racket when turning and make a distinctive clicking sound when going straight. Just a thought...:_confused Best of luck!

would these noises be worse when put into 4wd?

[Scott Larson]

I would think so, as you are now driving the the front wheels full time making the CVs work harder with the extra load placed on them.

[LittleBeast]

Just get under there and grab the center shaft of each CV and try to move it in any direction, if you get much play or can turn them, you may have a bad CV :-( Hope not though.

[tom4bren]

stock wheels and stock size tires no accidents wheels not rubbing (its a metal sound not plastic and rubber) - any walkthroughs on checking/refilling the "pumpkin"? - tried the search on changing diff fluid but came up empty as far as how-tos go

I'll look in the diff drop installation instructions. It may be in there.


would these noises be worse when put into 4wd?

Probably since there would be more 'drive' applied to the front wheels while in 4L.

Try moving the half shaft around (side to side, up & down, rotationally, & linearly). There shouldn't be any play at all.

[Scott Larson]

Checking the front diff may also be in order as Tom stated as you would also be putting it under additional load with the 4WD engaged...

[evillecutter]

ok so i couldnt stand it so i went home on lunch and started wiggling stuff and everything seems solid - didnt have time to raise the wheels off the ground so i couldnt check the bearings but i tried to move every piece i could including the two bars going into the cv boot - they didnt move at all except a small amount of play with an in and out motion dorectly towards the wheel - very small amount of movement (i got them to make a small clicking sound) and exactly the same on both sides - cv's the culprit? if one is bad then the other must be too could they both go at the same time? still gonna try to check the diff fluid and brakes later...

[tom4bren]

Just get under there and grab the center shaft of each CV and try to move it in any direction, if you get much play or can turn them, you may have a bad CV :-( Hope not though.

How did you sneak the same answer in as I was typing???:)


... could they both go at the same time? ...

Not likely.

[VXorado]

CVs usually pop/click and vibrate at speed when they wear out. Grinding is tough, it still could be the CVs but could be a lot of other things too.

I like the idea of finding some dirt and putting the VX in 4lo. I ran the VX with shot CVs and you'll definitely know they're bad when your in 4lo. If they don't pop/click, they're probably not the problem.

[tom4bren]

- tried the search on changing diff fluid but came up empty as far as how-tos go

The diff drop instructions just tell you to do it, not how to do it. Sorry.

It's pretty simple though. There will be a plug high on the differential & one low. The high one is the fill plug & the low one is the drain plug. Remove the fill plug first & then the lower one with a catch pan underneath. You may want to have a piece of cheese cloth to drain it through to catch any particles for later inspection. Remember, the hole can get clogged with gunk so you may have to poke at it to keep the oil draining. You'll need 2 bottles of 90 weight oil to put back in (IIRC it takes 1 1/2). You do NOT need the positrack additive for the front pumpkin but it won't hurt anything if that's all you can find.

Replace the drain plug. Start putting oil in the fill hole until it starts dribbling out. Replace the fill plug. Drive it for a day & then check to see if you need to add more.

EDIT:

The shop manual isn't much help either but you can find it here:

http://www.vehicross.info/modules.php?name=Downloads&file=viewarticle&id=20

Look on page 4A1-2 for diagnostics and 4A1-3 for a drawing of where the drain plug is.

[evillecutter]

you guys are awesome thanks a million gonna try to work on it tomorrow or wed and see what i can find -i'll let you know how it goes

[evillecutter]

had a buddy come over last night and drive it around while i stood outside and listened and its not coming from the front end it just sounds like it when you sit in the drivers seat - sounds like its coming from the drive shaft or u joints somewhere in the middle of the car - when i put it into 4wd low today it drove fine and didnt make the noise any worse like it did two says ago but still makes the same noise - like a popping sound - my buddy said it sounded like the cv's starting to go out but when i drove it and he stood outside and listened we both agreed its not coming from the front end but turning does seem to affect the intensity of the noise - any ideas?

[tom4bren]

If the sound intensifies while turning, then it's probably your outer CV. The sound can travel through the driveline and make it sound like it's coming from the driveshaft (hollow metal tubes are great for converting mechanical vibrations into sound waves).

That said though, it wouldn't hurt to hit your U-Joints with a grease gun before you tear into the CVs & see if that solves your problem.

Keep us posted.

[evillecutter]

greased all 3 nipples about 2 months ago - lifted front end and got pressure off wheels, tried to shake and no play (think bearings are good) - then tried to wiggle everything connected to anything in the front end that looks like it moves, including the cv joints and they are all stiff and feel good - is there anything in the drive shaft that could bind up or cause a grinding/popping noise? if just let the vx creep at idle speed you can hear it almost continous (ping ping pop ping pop) when you go faster it gets more intense and sounds like grinding

so the front cv joints could make a noise in the middle of the car? i hear nothing when i put my ear right up next to the front wheels when they are rolling...
are the joints that connect the shaft inbetween the front differential to the transfer case also called cv joints?
sorry to sound dumb but everyone i talk to calls all this crap something different

[tom4bren]

Well, it could still be CV because you're turning the wheel with the front end up so the CVs are riding in a different spot in the outer race.

It could be the front differential since it's function is to divide power between the two wheels even when they are spinning at different speeds (like in a turn). Does one wheel turn the opposite direction from the other when you spin it? Hold one wheel in place while spining the other & listen for odd noises in the differential.

I'd suggest draining the front pumpkin next and inspect what comes out to see if there are any metal flakes or even chunks of metal (that would not be good). If nothing else, it's a chance to change over to synthetic oil. One of the symptoms listed in the shop manual for low or dirty oil in the differential is a grinding noise ... so that's what we're all praying for.

BTW, there are even places you can send a sample of your oil off to & they can perform an analysis to determine if there is anything untoward happening in your diff.

BBTW, is your breather tube still attached to your axle tube? If that's missing, the oil could be contaminated with water.

[VXorado]

are the joints that connect the shaft inbetween the front differential to the transfer case also called cv joints?
sorry to sound dumb but everyone i talk to calls all this crap something different

Yes the front drive shaft uses rzeppa CV joints (same as halfshafts), the rear dirve shaft is u-joints.

When my CVs got really bad, the sound was more of a constant short, light clunk

clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk

I really don't know about:

ping ping pop ping pop

Definitely not what I heard with my CVs but that doesn't mean they're not the problem... in other words I have no idea.

On a side, this is why I got manual hubs. It really helps in troubleshooting & bypassing front end problems. With manual hubs, you could pull the front drive shaft and be completely rear wheel drive to help locate the sound. Alternatively, Jofotos has a method to disconnecting the front axles with a big sponge. Might be useful if you don't want the manual hubs but want to disconnect the half shafts for troubleshooting

[evillecutter]

the rear diff needs a special additive?

[tom4bren]

Yes. There is a special additive for Limited Slip Differentials. Most stores carry a selection of gear oil that already has it mixed in.

The jury is still out on whether it's needed if you are using synthetic but I've even seen the synthetic that already contains the additive.

[VX KAT]

Yes. There is a special additive for Limited Slip Differentials. Most stores carry a selection of gear oil that already has it mixed in.

The jury is still out on whether it's needed if you are using synthetic but I've even seen the synthetic that already contains the additive.

Yeah, I know Royal Purple has the additive and nothing had to be added when I had mine switched over to all synth. I'm not sure, but I think reading here somewhere that Amsoil does too...but would have to look into that.

[evillecutter]

finally decided its out of my rhelm of expertise/tools and took it to my guy - he is 75% sure its my front drive shaft and if its not that its prob something in the differential - he said if i find the drive shaft he will put it in for $60 which looks like its well worth it seeing as im pretty sure you need a special tool to compress the telescoping parts - i havent priced these yet seeing as i cannot find anyone that sells them... am i doomed?

[Scott Larson]

The "telescoping" part is just a slip-joint, it slides in and out to allow for length variations due to the articulation of the axles under compression and rebound. It is not spring loaded or under any pressure for or aft. It will take your mechanic about ten minutes to replace the driveshaft on a lift. Figure about twice that doing it in your driveway. No, you're not doomed. The front driveshaft can be rebuilt at any reputable driveline specialty shop for far less then a new Isuzu part. Just hit the yellow pages...Good luck!
:thumbup: :_steering

[Triathlete]

Nope...shops will not rebuild our front shafts. Several have checked into it including myself. Has to do with the type of joint our shaft has. A used replacement from a recycler will run $50-250 depending on the place and mileage (i paid under $65the shipped for mine).
The job is very easy and straight forward...I believe there are 8 8mm allen head bolts on each of the flanges (front and rear). Might take a little force to get it out and then just slide the replacement in and put the bolts back in.

[Scott Larson]

Hmmm...the "Clutch And U-Joint" in Burnsville, MN. claim they've rebuilt Isuzu shafts (front and rear) with "off the shelf" parts, now I'm curious...:_confused If you can find 'em salvage in good condition for less then a hundred bucks, that's not a bad option! :yeso:

[evillecutter]

its still drivable now and im afraid if i start taking stuff apart (or trying to) in my garage and i get stuck i wont have any way of getting it somewhere else to finish my botched job - gonna bring it to a driveline specialty place in the nearby town of chandler this weekend when i have time and see what they have to say - when i called them the guy on the phone said they do a lot of 4x4's as well as industrial drivetrains and even a few monster trucks - even actually said they had an "isuzu guy" but of course he was busy on like 3 other jobs so i didnt get to talk to him but he is supposed to call me back to day if he has time - im keeping my fingers crossed that they might actually have someone that wont freak out at the vehicross but im fairly confident about this place so im keeping my hopes up (plus i think the proton runs better on good vibes) - will report back if they figure anything out - and thanks again i know helping me with this stuff is probably getting old but i really appreciate it

[Scott Larson]

Oh heck, helping people in need never gets old, unless of course you're not learning as you go...Obtain the knowledge, pass it along to others in need and hope they do the same, one of lifes simpler philosophies! Best of luck with your drivetrain issues...:thumbup:

[evillecutter]

bad news its the transfer case - any idea what the model # is for our transfer case? i remember reading i think its made by borg warner

[Scott Larson]

Sorry to hear that, the transfer case is not a cheap fix, although it's cheaper to repair then replace, it all comes down to your comfort level in terms of your abilities. I'm sure you can source one in serviceable condition for a reasonable price on-line or maybe even locally. What did your driveline specialty shop say about a replacement or rebuild? It is a Borg Warner and replacement parts are readily available but I can't say offhand what the model number is. If you crack it open and diagnose what needs replacing, your friendly neighborhood CarQuest can supply you with the needed parts. They seem to be a better choice then Napa, at least around these parts when it comes to foreign car parts...

[evillecutter]

the guys at two different shops said it shouldnt be a problem to fix but they both said they would need the model # before they start looking for and ordering parts for the inside of it - neither one of them wanted to crack it open without knowing if they could get the parts first - tried the search (even in the archives) and found nothing

...man you shoulda seen some of the rigs in these shops... one place does mostly large commercial trucks and super heavy duty 4x4's - they were doing rear differential work on a monster truck i think it was called sir crush a lot or something - pretty cool - kinda softened the blow of knowing my vx is not going to be a cheap fix (my $6k vx is up to about $9k with all the crap that has went wrong with it in the past 6 months) ...this car hasnt even really given me a chance to enjoy it yet

if noone responds with a model # i might start a new thread just on transfer case and associated info for people to add to as they find it seeing as there doesnt seem to be one on the site already

[Scott Larson]

Now why didn't they just read the build tag on the transfer case? It's there for just that purpose. It's a shiny metal tag attached to the case. Unless someone before has removed it...

[evillecutter]

it started again and is getting worse - now the noise happens about half of the time that i am driving and sounds especially terrible when i turn - should i keep driving until something explodes or park it until i can save up to have the diff and transfer case serviced? any suggestions on which one would be better to start with?

[VX KAT]

Any chance this could be a TOD issue when the 4 tires aren't all matched closely in size, tread pattern, tread remaining, air pressure?

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=17436

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=17157&highlight=flashing+tod

or the mode switch?
.

[evillecutter]

Any chance this could be a TOD issue when the 4 tires aren't all matched closely in size, tread pattern, tread remaining, air pressure?

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=17436

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=17157&highlight=flashing+tod

or the mode switch?
.

i appreciate you looking into this for me kat - the tod seems to be working fine i have never had a check tod light and the blocks light up accordingly when i encounter rough or slippery terrain - i have 4 brand new falken ziex tires on it and check my tires almost daily hoping that it might be the cause but unfortunately im sure its not

i brought it to a driveline specialty place last month that works on all types of different drivelines big and small and they were afraid to even look at it until i either had a spare transfer case or all the necessary parts in case they needed them - i was kind of stunned seeing as that was the reason i ws bringing it to them so they could find the parts for me - when they listened to it they said something about the "lobes' inside the tcase but i have no idea what they are talking about and seeing as i am most likely not going to be doing this work myself i didnt keep asking questions after that because they seemed busy on other jobs

[VX KAT]

or the mode switch?
.

What about the mode switch?...I seem to recall reading that in one of those posts about the TOD/tire issue.
I know there's been alot of posts over the years about the mode switch....but I didn't search on it to get more info.

[Triathlete]

The usual symptoms for the mode switch are hard shifting and the gear indicator lights on the dash doing crazy stuff. Doesn't sound like his problems...but you never know.

[evillecutter]

grinds worse in 4lo - used to be just in 4lo that it would grind but now its getting worse in tod mode than it ever has been - shifts fine and fluids have been drained and replaced in both diffs (rear with lsd additive) - have not drained the tcase but the fluid was never low (since ive owned it) and looks bright red - im thinking it might have something to do with the "hard drop after letting off brakes" issue that i have read about on a few archived posts but noone ever said whether or not it was fixed and what caused it to begin with

its almost a metal binding or grinding sound with the occasional pop thrown in - loud enough that i can hear it over the new muffler - maybe the cv going to the tcase? i dont know where to start...

[MSHardeman]

I just skimmed through all of the posts in this thread, so forgive me if I go over something that has already been discussed.

I see in one of the posts that you got under the VX and checked the play in the front half shafts, but you didn't say (that I could see) if the CV boots were intact or not. Are/were they? How long have you had the VX and do you know if the CV boots were replaced, or not, before you bought it? The original boots are black, and would probably be a little dried out due to the age of the VX.

Do the popping and grinding sounds "feel" (sound) like they are coming from right under the front seats? Can you actually feel a grinding/vibration in the floor board under your feet?

I ask all of that because those were the same sensations that I was getting when my driver side inner CV outer race was going out. I know that's a confusing statement, but what I am ultimately talking about is what everyone calls the "green cup" on the front axle. If you get under the VX and look at the axle housing, the part that doesn't move and is bolted to the frame, you will see what looks like a big green cylinder sticking out of the axle housing. The inner CV boot should be wrapped around the end of this. That cylinder is actually the outer race for the inner CV joint. My inner CV boot split and I didn't catch it for a while until I started getting some strange grinding noises and vibrations that seemed to be coming from right under my seat when I was driving. It ended up that the green cup had gotten some junk in it and the CV joint was going bad. I think the fact that the axle is hard bolted to the frame the grinding sounds and feelings were traveling through the frame and I felt/heard them under my seat.

That's all I have for now, and I really hope that it isn't your green cup because it's a bit of an involved process to either replace it or rebuild it because it is actually the end of the drive axle that is inside the axle housing.

[evillecutter]

the cvs look good i have not changed them but they feel solid and there are no rips in the boots (they are black prob original) - the green cup seems fine too and i have no play in either axles - the only vibration comes from the steering wheel but i know it is not power steering issues because i have no leaks and when i sit still i can turn the steering wheel and there is no vibration and no sound -when you are driving it sounds like its coming from the front but if you are outside the vx is sounds like its coming from the middle or rear - maybe something wrong with the u joints or the cv that goes to the tcase? ive greased the 3 points on the driveshaft that i could - ive never had differential problems before what would those sound like?

its almost like i have two different problems going on here but they seem related - the on/off grinding and the binding of something causing the car to drop when i let off the brake after i brake hard enough (not unusually hard) it looks like the rear end has to come off to get to the rear diff to service it and the transfer case doesnt look any easier but i still dont know which one would be better to start with or if i should start with either

[Triathlete]

Have you checked the links on the rear suspension? If they have become worn out ( the joints that connect to the rear axle housing and the joints on the frame end) it could allow your axle housing to rotate (it doesn't take much) which could cause the ujoints to bind. Just thinking out loud here.

[evillecutter]

Have you checked the links on the rear suspension? If they have become worn out ( the joints that connect to the rear axle housing and the joints on the frame end) it could allow your axle housing to rotate (it doesn't take much) which could cause the ujoints to bind. Just thinking out loud here.

think away!!! i need all the suggestions i can get here :yesy:

[MSHardeman]

As for the brake clunk, I think that's a pretty common issue around here. I know that I will get the occasional clunk when I let off of the brakes after coming to a stop. Unless there is an excess clunk, or other associated noise, I think you're OK there.

[evillecutter]

As for the brake clunk, I think that's a pretty common issue around here. I know that I will get the occasional clunk when I let off of the brakes after coming to a stop. Unless there is an excess clunk, or other associated noise, I think you're OK there.

anyone ever figure out what causes this? never heard of it on any other vehicle

[MSHardeman]

I don't remember anyone ever definitively figuring it out. Maybe it's the brake shoes letting go of the rotor, or maybe the calipers themselves just clunking when they open up.

[evillecutter]

ok is the shaft going from the front diff to the transfer case supposed to be slightly loose? i was underneath messing around the other night and i when i grab it and shake (dont laugh) it has play in it - i can move it back and forth about a quarter inch or so - i thought at first that the bolts might be loose that hold the two pieces together closesest to the tcase, but it wasnt the bolts its the entire shaft moving inside there

[Triathlete]

It has a slight fore and aft play but should have no up and down movement.

[evillecutter]

It has a slight fore and aft play but should have no up and down movement.

i can move it around in a circle

[evillecutter]

im guessing im going to need a transfer case rebuild - has anyone ever bought a rebuild kit for the tcase?

can anyone offer me any type of advice on working on the tcase? it seems to be one of the least talked about parts of the vx...

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1363283,parttype,16049,a,www.google.com% 2BSearch%2Bfor%2B2000%2BISUZU%2BVEHICROSS%2B3.5L%2 BV6%2BTransfer%2BCase

[BigMike]

Would it be worth removing the front driveshaft and take it for a spin to see if it actually is the transfer case? I have the same front end noise at low speed turning( into my driveway or a parking space). Other than that I never hear it. I have not tried to tackle the issue yet. Still waiting on the rear wheel bearings to get pressed on. One issue at a time.

[evillecutter]

i drained and changed the fluid in the tcase and after about 50 miles it hasnt made the noise - i still get a clunk when i come up to a stop sometimes but the pencil shaving/ power-steering-going-out type of noise seems to be gone when i turn at low speeds - i feel stupid because i could have swore that i changed the fluid in the tcase when i did all the other fluids a month ago but i guess i just checked it - it was full and when i dipped my finger in and the fluid seemed of good color, but when i actually drained it the red was more brown than i realized - probably too soon to see if this was an actual fix, but im thinking positive - and taking out the front driveshaft is what one of the driveline specialty places said they would probably do if i brought it to them so yes i think that would narrow it down pretty good

[don moore]

im gettting a tick tick tick sound when i slow down to a stop and when i turn hard it grinds and almost stops the vx ..the tires churp like its in 4wd when turning... bad sounds ..i took it in to my alignment guy they replaced a rear wheel berring last month..it was leaking on the inside of the tire....sounds like mine is doing like yours