wont start

[evillecutter]

ok so the vx is turning from something fun to something seriously draining not only on my patience but also on my wallet - everything was running fine enginewise on proton until yesterday when i went out to start it after work - turned the key and it acted like it wanted to start but then immediately died - next turn of the key and its rolling over and i have plenty of electricity but it just wont fire and there are no warning or check engine lights - any suggestions? my first thought is that it feels jsut like when the timing belt went out on my 626 but i dont want to have that replaced unless absolutely necessary - fuel pump? - put on new fuel filter, fpr, icv, tps, and ngk plugs within the last 6 months... sorry to be such a pain but not a lot of other places to turn to with this vehicle and if i cant figure it out soon this might end up turning from a troubleshooting thread to a for sale thread

[VXorado]

Try pressing the gas when you turn the ignition. If it turns over, its most likely an egr issue.

[evillecutter]

tried that - smelled gas which made me think it wasnt the fuel pump thats what has me worried thinking it slipped timing or something along those lines - i was getting a small amount of valve chatter before it happened but i assumed that was normal

[VXorado]

That's too bad, I was hoping that would work based on your past idle problems. I believe a bad intake manifold gasket can cause idle issues and sudden start-up problems. Unfortunately, not having a cel makes it tough.

That 3.5l is a non interference engine which is good news if the timing belt slipped.

[tom4bren]

Try a computer reset before you put out any $$$. Just disconnect your battery for 30 minutes & try again.

Not likely to work but it's a cheap thing to try.

[evillecutter]

That's too bad, I was hoping that would work based on your past idle problems. I believe a bad intake manifold gasket can cause idle issues and sudden start-up problems. Unfortunately, not having a cel makes it tough.

That 3.5l is a non interference engine which is good news if the timing belt slipped.

well im assuming there is no check engine light - all the lights come on when i turn the key but the car has to start for it to actually show me - dont know if timing belt would even throw a cel anyways? the motor has much more vibration than normal when i turn the key than when it normally starts, kinda shakes the steering wheel - gonna have it towed home today and start the quest for someone who can work on it properly

[tom4bren]

Page 6A-4 of the shop manual has some limited diagnostics to get you started.

It very likely could be your timing belt. Sounds a lot like when my old Eclipse belt went.

You can still check for stored codes without the engine running. The reader/computer just needs the key in the ignition position to read stored codes.

[evillecutter]

im sure its the original timing belt since everything else on this car has been factory/stock/original - and with 113k miles it was probably long overdue anyways - so until i can find someone i trust to work on this beast its garage art

[MSHardeman]

I don't really think that our timing belts can "slip". It's a "toothed" belt that rides on "toothed" gears so unless the belt is stripped or the tensioner has gone out I don't think you could slip a timing belt. Have you ever changed the fuel filter and fuel pressure regulators? My VX had a starting issue at Moab one year, and when I got back home I replaced my fuel filter (which was totally clogged because I couldn't blow through it) and my fuel pressure regulator and that seemed to fix everything. Both of those parts are cheap and, relatively, easy to get to so maybe give them a try first.

When you turn your key on the ignition to run (I think that's what it is), before you turn it once more to start the engine, you should be able to hear your fuel pump in the gas tank turn on to prime the engine, so that's an easy one to diagnose and make sure that it's working.

Those are my guesses.:_confused

[evillecutter]

I don't really think that our timing belts can "slip". It's a "toothed" belt that rides on "toothed" gears so unless the belt is stripped or the tensioner has gone out I don't think you could slip a timing belt. Have you ever changed the fuel filter and fuel pressure regulators? My VX had a starting issue at Moab one year, and when I got back home I replaced my fuel filter (which was totally clogged because I couldn't blow through it) and my fuel pressure regulator and that seemed to fix everything. Both of those parts are cheap and, relatively, easy to get to so maybe give them a try first.

When you turn your key on the ignition to run (I think that's what it is), before you turn it once more to start the engine, you should be able to hear your fuel pump in the gas tank turn on to prime the engine, so that's an easy one to diagnose and make sure that it's working.

Those are my guesses.:_confused

the timing slipped on my 68 firebird because the toothed gears wore down that held it on but that was a timing chain not a timing belt - i would assume that a belt would be able to slip much easier than a metal chain but a belt would also keep the gears holding it on from wearing down as well so i may have just answered my own question - the 626 i had it just snapped no warning whatsoever (belt not chain) - put on new fuel filter, fpr, icv, tps, and ngk plugs within the last 6 months - anyone know how to get to the fuel pump? i cant hear it priming but i never really could before this happened either - i can smell gas when i pump the pedal

[MSHardeman]

I have my old engine apart right now, and I can take pictures of the timing bits for you if you would like. Both the belt and the gears have some pretty deep ridges on them so I don't think that it would be possible for them to slip on eachother unless something was excessivly worn, or the tensioner gave out and allowed the belt to jump a tooth.

I think the fuel filter is actually IN the fuel tank. You'll have to drop the tank itself to be able to get to the top of the tank where the fuel pump is bolted up.

[VXorado]

Yes Mark is right, you would need to drop the gas tank to find the fuel pump. It's not difficult but time consuming.

...better yet, there's a schrader valve on the fuel rail- depress it (cover with cloth) and fuel should spray out for a second. Now turn the ignition a bit and check the valve- if it sprays out again, the fuel rail has pressure and the injectors should be getting enough fuel to turn over the engine.

[Ldub]

This is kind of a shot inna dark but...

Since you mentioned noticeable valve clatter...

I remember a few posts in tha past, where someone had a sound that was like clatter or even the dreaded "death knock"...turned out to be the timing belt tensioner saying goodbye, which would also explain the possible circumstance of the timing belt skipping a cog...:_wrench:

In any event, :luck: with sleuthing out the solution.

[Ldub]

I think the fuel filter is actually IN the fuel tank. You'll have to drop the tank itself to be able to get to the top of the tank where the fuel pump is bolted up.

Mark, it's fairly apparent to me that your brain was thinking fuel pump, but your digits typed filter...:smilewink

The filter is on the pass side frame.

[MSHardeman]

You are correct Dub. Mind thought fuel pump, fingers typed fuel filter.

Yes, fuel pump on passenger side frame rail, fuel PUMP in gas tank.

I either need to get my fingers or my brain fixed.:_huh:

[Ldub]

You are correct Dub. Mind thought fuel pump, fingers typed fuel filter.

Yes, fuel FILTER on passenger side frame rail, fuel PUMP in gas tank.

I either need to get my fingers or my brain fixed.:_huh:

Fixed'd it for ya Bro...:smilewink

[Triathlete]

Time to put down the crack pipe Mark :)

[Scott Larson]

Oh hell, now I'm confused...but I do think your timing is off due to a slipped belt. All it takes is one hesitation (read backfire) because of a worn belt and it can throw it off a cog or two. Seen it, been there, done that...

[Triathlete]

Scott, i am guessing broken belt or bad tensioner. My belt is way over due...148000. But it is getting changed in about a week. Parts get ordered Monday :)

[Scott Larson]

Wow, Billy, you've been tempting fate haven't you? My '01 had 150,000 on it's original belt but it was 2 years newer and I changed it 2 years ago. I'm bettin' you're a "glass half full" kinda guy...:_beer:

[Ldub]

I'm bettin' you're a "glass half full" kinda guy...:_beer:

LOL...Billy's a "cladding half gone" kinda guy...:rotate:

[Triathlete]

LOL...Billy's a "cladding half gone" kinda guy...:rotate:

Hey, hey, hey...I represent that remark! :)

[VX KAT]

Since you mentioned noticeable valve clatter...

I remember a few posts in tha past, where someone had a sound that was like clatter or even the dreaded "death knock"...turned out to be the timing belt tensioner saying goodbye, which would also explain the possible circumstance of the timing belt skipping a cog...:_wrench:


pretty sure that was SilverBullet75. He's mentioned it several times.
Search his posts, with "tensioner", it was maybe a year ago or less.

[Y33TREKker]

Does the engine even SOUND like it's trying to fire while turning over? If not, it could be more electrically related, like something in the ignition. Have you checked for any blown fuses like fuel pump or ignition circuits? Even if a timing belt jumped a cog, it seems you'd still have fuel being ignited causing backfires or a VERY rough running engine.

[evillecutter]

Yes Mark is right, you would need to drop the gas tank to find the fuel pump. It's not difficult but time consuming.

...better yet, there's a schrader valve on the fuel rail- depress it (cover with cloth) and fuel should spray out for a second. Now turn the ignition a bit and check the valve- if it sprays out again, the fuel rail has pressure and the injectors should be getting enough fuel to turn over the engine.

is this the rail that runs on the side of the intake on top of the engine?

[evillecutter]

Does the engine even SOUND like it's trying to fire while turning over? If not, it could be more electrically related, like something in the ignition. Have you checked for any blown fuses like fuel pump or ignition circuits? Even if a timing belt jumped a cog, it seems you'd still have fuel being ignited causing backfires or a VERY rough running engine.

engine is turning over just fine really wants to start - plenty of juice just no fire

[evillecutter]

This is kind of a shot inna dark but...

Since you mentioned noticeable valve clatter...

I remember a few posts in tha past, where someone had a sound that was like clatter or even the dreaded "death knock"...turned out to be the timing belt tensioner saying goodbye, which would also explain the possible circumstance of the timing belt skipping a cog...:_wrench:

In any event, :luck: with sleuthing out the solution.

is the timing belt tensioner inside with the timing belt? or is that the same tensioner pulley thingy on the outside?

[evillecutter]

first off thanks everyone for all the help - gonna check a few things off the list today and see what i come up with - first gonna check all fuses and relays then look into vxorado's suggestion of the checking that valve for pressure, then going on to fuel pump, then on to tensioner and/or belt if none of those help - ill let you know how it goes

[evillecutter]

http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/popup/?type=more&image=aHR0cDovL3N0YXRpYzIuYXB3Y29udGVudC5jb20vaW1h Z2VzL3Byb2R1Y3RfaW1hZ2VzL2ltYWdlcy9XT1JMRFBBQy9XMD EzMzE4MjI1NzRPRVMuSlBH&title=T0VTIEdlbnVpbmUgRnVlbCBTZW5kaW5nIFVuaXQ=&text=

what the heck is this and where does it go?

[Scott Larson]

That's the fuel gauge sending unit, it goes in the tank.

[VXorado]

is this the rail that runs on the side of the intake on top of the engine?

Yes, just under the plastic cover and the valve is on the driver's side. If you get pressure here, it should eliminate the need to look at the fuel pump because you'll know the pump is getting fuel to the engine.

:luck:

[evillecutter]

fuses all look good but getting no fuel from the valve on the fuel rail - gonna start with the fuel pump and go from there...

[MSHardeman]

Alright, let me see if I can get this right this time.... I can't remember if you changed the fuel filter and fuel pressure regulator, or not, but I would actually start there first. Both of them are inexpensive, easy to replace, parts so I would go that route before dropping the gas tank to get to the fuel pump.

If you have replaced those two things then the fuel pump would be the next in line (unless the fuel lines themselves are clogged).

[evillecutter]

yes replaced fuel filter, fuel pressure regulator, idle controle valve, throttle position sensor, and new plugs all less than 6 months ago - small fuse was good going to fuel pump going to relplace the fuel pump relay switch and if that doesnt work im dropping the gas tank and replacing the fuel pump - if that doesnt work im gonna look at the timing belt - when i checked the valve on the fuel rail there was no pressure whatsoever so im hoping its just the relay or fuel pump - any suggestions on how to drop a 90%full gas tank?

[Ldub]

when i checked the valve on the fuel rail there was no pressure whatsoever so im hoping its just the relay or fuel pump - any suggestions on how to drop a 90%full gas tank?

I'll assume that the ign was ON when you checked the schrader valve?..:smilewink

Siphon as much petrol as possible into gas cans before you drop it.

NO SMOKING!!!

[VXorado]

yes replaced fuel filter, fuel pressure regulator, idle controle valve, throttle position sensor, and new plugs all less than 6 months ago - small fuse was good going to fuel pump going to relplace the fuel pump relay switch and if that doesnt work im dropping the gas tank and replacing the fuel pump - if that doesnt work im gonna look at the timing belt - when i checked the valve on the fuel rail there was no pressure whatsoever so im hoping its just the relay or fuel pump - any suggestions on how to drop a 90%full gas tank?

The gas tank is held on by two brackets and six bolts. It's fairly easy to drop but disconnecting all of the line tank lines is a pain. Like Dub said, avoid smoking. :bwgy:

Before dropping the gas tank, I would pull the fuel filter and have a friend turn the ign. while you have the fuel line aimed toward a bucket or something. Then you'll be absolutely sure the pump is out and it's not a plugged line closer to the engine.

[evillecutter]

The gas tank is held on by two brackets and six bolts. It's fairly easy to drop but disconnecting all of the line tank lines is a pain. Like Dub said, avoid smoking. :bwgy:

Before dropping the gas tank, I would pull the fuel filter and have a friend turn the ign. while you have the fuel line aimed toward a bucket or something. Then you'll be absolutely sure the pump is out and it's not a plugged line closer to the engine.

who said i had friends? kidding :p - good idea i'll try this asap - geesh there are a lot of lines going to the tank - if i do have to take it down do i need to drop it all the way or do you think i can just sort of angle it to get to the pump assembly?

[evillecutter]

I'll assume that the ign was ON when you checked the schrader valve?..:smilewink

Siphon as much petrol as possible into gas cans before you drop it.

NO SMOKING!!!

http://www.electroniccigarettereview.com/images/cigarette-world-record.jpg
i'll try to get it all out of my system before hand :happyface
oh, and yes the ignition was on - is that valve supposed to have a cap on it? mine doesnt

[VXorado]

who said i had friends? kidding :p - good idea i'll try this asap - geesh there are a lot of lines going to the tank - if i do have to take it down do i need to drop it all the way or do you think i can just sort of angle it to get to the pump assembly?

The tank drops at an angle already, one side before the other. You probably could get to the fuel pump without dropping the tank completely.

[PK]

There is a photo on here somewhere, of a hole cut in the rear floor to give access to the gas tank connections.

But if you do that, you have to wear a blue and white apron as you cut it in.

PK

[evillecutter]

took the fuel pump relay out and cleaned the contacts then kind of readjusted the points it connects to inside the fuse box by spreading them out with a tiny screwdriver (ive had to do this to all kinds of electrical connections on my chevy truck) , put the key in and could hear the pump priming for the first time in a week - turned the key started right up... now i feel like a hypochondriac - i was one day away from dropping the gas tank and was even going tonight to buy more 5 gallon gas cans to drain the almost full gas tank into - now decided im going to use the fuel pump money i had saved to put a new muffler on this puppy and maybe make a little more noise

[Ldub]

Good to hear...:dance:

[VXorado]

Good deal, hopefully your VX gives you a break for a while...

:D

[Cobrajet]

The power of brainstorming!! Good to hear it wasn't a serious problem.