How big are your balls?

[89Vette]

Because it's such a common problem, I wanted to get your attention. In researching the halfshaft options, I saw EMPI, A1-Cardone, OEM, and rebuilders as the viable options. And, it sounded like EMPI was the best aftermarket choice -- without breaking the bank.

Still, I was troubled by this ball-size issue. I saw at least one post (that I can't find now) where the writer was adamant about EMPI's being problematic. Moreover, I've questioned the viability of those shafts -- if the balls really weren't the same size as stock. I just couldn't see how they'd ride in the tulip w/o making some noise -- whether popping, binding, or vibration.

To add to the concern, at least a few posters complained of their results -- especially if their rig was lifted. So....today was the day to get mine installed.

I had a shop do the work for me because I wanted it done before my surgery. Plus, I still wasn't sure how much of the steering knuckle/backing plate needed to be turned loose (from parts like the sway bar, end-links, etc...

This post is to say I got lucky.

The shop ignored the instructions I provided from this site. In those instructions, I hand-wrote a few notes -- including my wish to have the ball size checked. But, they didn't.

The lucky part came when one of the two front R1Concepts (drilled/slotted) rotors I'd sent for -- was defective. Yes...they screwed up and reamed out the holes that bolt the rotor to the hub. You could JUST BARELY see thread in the bolts holes AND the bolts would drop right through. IOW, no way for us to even re-tap them.

So, after waiting an extra week for R1Concepts to deliver their goods, they let me down.

I scrambled, left work, got another set of rotors and went to the shop. I ended up getting to talk directly to the mechanic. During our conversation, I asked about the ball issue. He said one side was already installed and was fine...though presenting a mild amount of play. We finished discussion of the rotors and I headed to the front desk...where I asked a few more questions about another issue/two.

During that time, the mechanic finished pulling the opposite half-shaft. He came up to the front and exclaimed his concern about it's viability. It fit looser than the first (DS) shaft. At that point, I insisted we pull those inner cages apart and measure the balls. We found the EMPI's smaller! And, it was clear to me they should NOT be considered an exact replacement. I really wasn't even willing to use them -- and the shop agreed. You should have see/felt the slop!

But, where could one find viable shafts in 1-2hrs in ANY local city? I'm guessing you can't....Or, you'd have to take a chance on salvage or Cardones. Neither would warm my cockles after spending so much on labor.

After a bit more debate/inspection, I came up with a plan. I realized the OEM 6-ball race/retainer HAD to be reused. The EMPI was at least a few thousand's thinner and the snap ring would have been problematic. So, by reusing the OEM balls, cage, and EMPI retainer, we transfered the OEM balls to the EMPI shaft. The difference in fit/slop was night/day. The OEM balls -- on the EMPI shaft -- fit as snug as a bug in a rug!

So, if you buy EMPI shafts, I must emphasize my recommendation to follow suit. Don't use the EMPI balls. (I have to assume the Cardone's should be considered in the same light.) Otherwise, I can easily see how you'd end up with noise, vibration, popping, and all types of problems with an ill-fitting joint. With a lifted VX, it's clear why you'd get popping/binding.

Unless it's a complete emergency, I say just don't use the EMPI balls! They're just not big enough. Everyone needs big balls!

:bwgy::smilewink:bgwo::bgwb:




BTW: I have to consider myself lucky that R1Concepts sent me crap. Had that not happened, I wouldn't have gone to the shop...and drawn their attention to the issue, and tonight I would be one unhappy camper.

[VXorado]

Good tip!!!

The EMPIs are designed for the Trooper which uses a slightly different inner cup. I didn't know the bearing sizes were different but I run an EMPI half shaft with a Trooper inner cup and haven't had experienced any problems.

[Ldub]

Thas some good VXinfo right there Vette...:_wrench:.:thumbup:

Good luck wit ta surgery.

And, fwiw...and since you asked...(I don't know of any other correlative answers)

Shoe: 13

Ring: 13


Go figger...:_confused

Y'know what "they" always say...

"Big hands & Big feet"...

ALWAYS = "big gloves, & big shoes"...:yesgray:

[BigSwede]

That AC/DC song comes to mind...

[89Vette]

Good tip!!!

The EMPIs are designed for the Trooper which uses a slightly different inner cup. I didn't know the bearing sizes were different but I run an EMPI half shaft with a Trooper inner cup and haven't had experienced any problems.

Yeah, I wouldn't have any "issue" using the EMPI halfshaft -- when mated to the correct inner half/tulip.

I can't imagine anyone would deliberately pick the wrong size bearing for any other application and I can not fathom anyone choosing to put [smaller] EMPI balls into an OEM inner cup.

The only thing I regret is not writing the mic'd size of the correct OEM ball down. Because I envision a scenario where someone could find the correct ball bearings from an independant supplier -- and have them ready at the time of installation.

Never know what you might find in there.

[Lucian08]

Because it's such a common problem, I wanted to get your attention. In researching the halfshaft options, I saw EMPI, A1-Cardone, OEM, and rebuilders as the viable options. And, it sounded like EMPI was the best aftermarket choice -- without breaking the bank.

Still, I was troubled by this ball-size issue. I saw at least one post (that I can't find now) where the writer was adamant about EMPI's being problematic. Moreover, I've questioned the viability of those shafts -- if the balls really weren't the same size as stock. I just couldn't see how they'd ride in the tulip w/o making some noise -- whether popping, binding, or vibration.

To add to the concern, at least a few posters complained of their results -- especially if their rig was lifted. So....today was the day to get mine installed.

I had a shop do the work for me because I wanted it done before my surgery. Plus, I still wasn't sure how much of the steering knuckle/backing plate needed to be turned loose (from parts like the sway bar, end-links, etc...

This post is to say I got lucky.

The shop ignored the instructions I provided from this site. In those instructions, I hand-wrote a few notes -- including my wish to have the ball size checked. But, they didn't.

The lucky part came when one of the two front R1Concepts (drilled/slotted) rotors I'd sent for -- was defective. Yes...they screwed up and reamed out the holes that bolt the rotor to the hub. You could JUST BARELY see thread in the bolts holes AND the bolts would drop right through. IOW, no way for us to even re-tap them.

So, after waiting an extra week for R1Concepts to deliver their goods, they let me down.

I scrambled, left work, got another set of rotors and went to the shop. I ended up getting to talk directly to the mechanic. During our conversation, I asked about the ball issue. He said one side was already installed and was fine...though presenting a mild amount of play. We finished discussion of the rotors and I headed to the front desk...where I asked a few more questions about another issue/two.

During that time, the mechanic finished pulling the opposite half-shaft. He came up to the front and exclaimed his concern about it's viability. It fit looser than the first (DS) shaft. At that point, I insisted we pull those inner cages apart and measure the balls. We found the EMPI's smaller! And, it was clear to me they should NOT be considered an exact replacement. I really wasn't even willing to use them -- and the shop agreed. You should have see/felt the slop!

But, where could one find viable shafts in 1-2hrs in ANY local city? I'm guessing you can't....Or, you'd have to take a chance on salvage or Cardones. Neither would warm my cockles after spending so much on labor.

After a bit more debate/inspection, I came up with a plan. I realized the OEM 6-ball race/retainer HAD to be reused. The EMPI was at least a few thousand's thinner and the snap ring would have been problematic. So, by reusing the OEM balls, cage, and EMPI retainer, we transfered the OEM balls to the EMPI shaft. The difference in fit/slop was night/day. The OEM balls -- on the EMPI shaft -- fit as snug as a bug in a rug!

So, if you buy EMPI shafts, I must emphasize my recommendation to follow suit. Don't use the EMPI balls. (I have to assume the Cardone's should be considered in the same light.) Otherwise, I can easily see how you'd end up with noise, vibration, popping, and all types of problems with an ill-fitting joint. With a lifted VX, it's clear why you'd get popping/binding.

Unless it's a complete emergency, I say just don't use the EMPI balls! They're just not big enough. Everyone needs big balls!

:bwgy::smilewink:bgwo::bgwb:




BTW: I have to consider myself lucky that R1Concepts sent me crap. Had that not happened, I wouldn't have gone to the shop...and drawn their attention to the issue, and tonight I would be one unhappy camper.


So I replaced my OEM half shaft with the recommended EMPI shaft last November. My VX is lifted about 3" and the vibration and popping started almost immediatley after the swap. After seeing this thread I decided to pull out the EMPI and replace the balls and cage from my OEM axle I still had. I measured the balls while they were out. EMPI is at 19.8mm and OEM at 20.6mm. So the EMPI is definitely smaller. But here comes the problem; the EMPI retainer uses a snap ring in the cage to hold it in (as noted in the original post), but the OEM cage has a machined lip in it to fit the OEM retainer. Long story short, the EMPI retainer did not fit in the OEM cage.

89Vette, how did you get these to fit together? After failing on that front I noticed that no combination would work. I couldn't even use the larger balls from OEM and the rest of the EMPI stuff because the holes in the cage are too small. So maybe you can shed some light on that.

Anyway, I ended up cleaning and rebuilding the OEM half shaft. The only reason I replaced it was because both boots were torn and I was told it was easier to just replace the entire shaft. I figured I would rebuild the OEM eventually and use it as a spare.

I posted some pics of the EMPI retainer. Note that the EMPI shaft was installed for only a few monthes and the retainer has been badly dented from the balls, and of course this damaged the inner green cup as well on one of the splines. I have only been doing on road city driving since replacing the shaft so this is regular wear. No off roading or drag racing. I can only suspect that the EMPI unit would have become useless in less than a year while also destroying the OEM green cup.


http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/vx217.jpghttp://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/vx123.jpg

[tom4bren]

I just sent RCV Performance a message to see if they retained the information they need to make them for us. I'll let you know if/when they respond.

Several years ago, when I needed them, they were going to charge about the same as OEM shafts. Unfortunately they weren't able to make them in the timeframe I needed them. Hopefully since they are under new management they will be more responsive.

[89Vette]

89Vette, how did you get these to fit together? After failing on that front I noticed that no combination would work. I couldn't even use the larger balls from OEM and the rest of the EMPI stuff because the holes in the cage are too small. So maybe you can shed some light on that.

You're right. You can't use the EMPI cage with the OEM balls.

Based on my post/comment about the snap-ring, I'm sure I used the OEM outer cage, the OEM balls, and believe I used the inner retainer from the EMPI shaft (inner retainer is the item you pictured).

Seems like the length of the OEM inner retainer was to too long for where the snap ring groove was cut...which is why the EMPI piece had to be used. We couldn't tell the pitch/curvature of the EMPI inner retainer was any different than the OEM retainer. Just their lengths.

At this point, I'm going more off my post than memory.


BTW...My surgery went pretty well. They didn't yank the part of my brain that likes the Vehicross or Vehicross.INFO! :rotate:

[Triathlete]

This whole process has me baffled as to why. The actual shaft very rarely goes bad unless the splines get mangled. I have never seen a oem shaft go bad. What usually goes bad is the balls and/or the cage. They generally wear or, in offroading cases, when bound up grenade. So, why are we replacing the shaft and reusing the ball/cage assembly? Just curious,!

[Lucian08]

This whole process has me baffled as to why. The actual shaft very rarely goes bad unless the splines get mangled. I have never seen a oem shaft go bad. What usually goes bad is the balls and/or the cage. They generally wear or, in offroading cases, when bound up grenade. So, why are we replacing the shaft and reusing the ball/cage assembly? Just curious,!

You are correct that the shaft is fine, however the splines are a different count between the EMPI and OEM shaft. That means that whichever shaft is used/reused, you must also use that retainer. The only other parts are the outer cage and the balls. In my trial I could not get the cage and balls from one to transfer over to the other, but Vette had a different experience. That means that if you want to replace any of the assembly components, then you have to change the shaft. In either case, none of the components are the same. Different spline count, different ball size, and different mechanism to hold the retainer in the cage.

[89Vette]

You are correct that the shaft is fine, however the splines are a different count between the EMPI and OEM shaft. That means that whichever shaft is used/reused, you must also use that retainer. The only other parts are the outer cage and the balls. In my trial I could not get the cage and balls from one to transfer over to the other, but Vette had a different experience. That means that if you want to replace any of the assembly components, then you have to change the shaft. In either case, none of the components are the same. Different spline count, different ball size, and different mechanism to hold the retainer in the cage.

Interesting....I do remember it being kindof a trick to get the balls/cage on the new retainer/shaft. (rubick's cube stuff.)

As for replacing the whole shaft, I chose to do so because it new the boot had been compromised for a much as 2yrs...maybe quite a bit more. With THAT much exposure to debris, I didn't want to chance re-using the same [outer] CV components. (with a new boot).

Plus, for less than $100/shaft, I couldn't think of what the downside might be.

[Triathlete]

The down side would be you are still using the "compromised" ball/cage...if I am reading this right.

[89Vette]

I understand your point...unless Cardone just f'd up and loaded balls that were too small in their repro. I wasn't even sure their was a difference in cages but it was too long ago to remember.

The point I think you're saying is the arc of the inner retainer -- if matched to smaller bearings/balls wouldn't mate correctly to the larger OEM balls. OTOH, if the arc WERE smaller, the larger ball shouldn't have seated all the way into the inner retainer...likely making installation of the outer cage problematic.

Mine are still running problem free w/o noise or vibration. So, hopefully THAT's a good sign!


OTOH...at this point, I can't even remember if I had to use the Cardone inner retainer/race.

[LittleBeast]

So in summary if replacing a blown CV in the future, just try using the new Cage from the EMPI with the OEM balls, shaft, and retainer?

I have all of these spare parts sitting in my garage. I think the EMPI ones are made for Troopers, and I tried replacing one of my CV's with a troopers CV and the CV balls were too small, and I got a whole lot of popping and slipping. Then I bought a used VX CV and it slid in and made no noise.

[89Vette]

So in summary if replacing a blown CV in the future, just try using the new Cage from the EMPI with the OEM balls, shaft, and retainer?

I think you have it backwards......

On the inboard side, the EMPI balls (CV "race") won't be large enough to fill that green cup on the outer part of the axle.

If you use an EMPI halfshaft, you'll need to reuse the OEM cage/balls. If the balls are scored/damage, you could look for ones that measure the 20.6mm size specified above. OTOH, if that were true, I'd wonder about the condition of the receiving "tulip". (green cup).

At this point, the question in my mind was whether I also reused the OEM inner retainer (the thing pictured above).

If the OEM inner retainer won't work (wrong splines or wrong length), then you might not be able to do the conversion OR use the EMPI shaft -- without problems. If the EMPI half-shaft doesn't allow the use of the OEM inner CV retainer, my next thought would be to modify it....OR make darn sure the EMPI and OEM retainers have the same arc/curveature. It would be necessary to prevent the type of wear pictured.

One of us should probably contact EMPI (and/or Cardone?) to notify them of this issue/discrepancy. Could it be that Trooper, Rodeo, and other Isuzu's use a different sized inner cup on their inner front axles?

[89Vette]

I understand your point...unless Cardone just f'd up and loaded balls that were too small in their repro. I wasn't even sure their was a difference in cages but it was too long ago to remember.

The point I think you're saying is the arc of the inner retainer -- if matched to smaller bearings/balls wouldn't mate correctly to the larger OEM balls. OTOH, if the arc WERE smaller, the larger ball shouldn't have seated all the way into the inner retainer...likely making installation of the outer cage problematic.

Mine are still running problem free w/o noise or vibration. So, hopefully THAT's a good sign!


OTOH...at this point, I can't even remember if I had to use the Cardone inner retainer/race.

Though I can't be sure if the same issue/parts are available, I thought it reasonable to report back on durability.

This post is to let everyone know the procedure I followed is still holding up 2.5 years later. No discernable noise/problem has resulted from my hybrid rebuild. It probably has at least 20k miles since the outer axle rebuild.