3.8L Series II w/ SC swap?

[bartmanS4]

Just dreaming at this point but I think it would be super cool to swap in a GM 3.8 series II. It is a really well regarded engine and can produce plenty of power. I've been reading up on a couple of swaps involving these into a Toyota and even an Amigo although both with Toyota transmissions. Will the AR5 bolt up to this engine? Or would a different bell housing be needed? I know this was talked about a number of years back but I think most people sided with using a northstar. What are the pros and cons?
You could even source a Holden supercharger for it so the intake would fit:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/holden-commodore-v6-L67-supercharger-kit-suit-vn-vr-vs-vt-vx-vy-wh-/140908770876?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20ced1363c&_uhb=1#ht_500wt_1414
As for the AR5 being rated at 260ft/lbs that is really only based on existing application and not a true rating. So who know what it can actually handle as for the 4l30E we know it is a weak link.

[dietz99vcross]

Instead of the supercharged version, I could just take the engine out of my Grand National, but I think we may have issues with the torque.

[evillecutter]

my uncle who sold used cars for 35+ years always said the gm (buick) 3.8l was one of the most reliable engines ever produced

[bartmanS4]

Anybody know if our transmissions will bolt up to one?
Agreed that even the NA would be a worthy upgrade.

[Leon R]

No, it will not. Buick 3.8 would require an adapter, but they do make them. We should be able to use the same adapter that Fiero's use to adapt Buick engines. Basically anything that works for Fiero's should work for us (same engine bolt pattern) and there are dozens of engine swap for those cars.

[Triathlete]

I can't wait to start seeing some of the new model v6 ecoboosts from the f150 in the scrap yards! Look like a good fit, 300+ hp stock and I am sure there will be a ton of aftermarket.

[Leon R]

Ford ECOTEC is a great engine, but it would be especially difficult to adapt to Isuzu...

[bartmanS4]

Reviving my old thread.

I'm still in the just thinking about it stage. But here's what I think could work. Take a SC 3000 Series II from a FWD along with it's wiring harness. Get a supercharger from a Holden in Australia since it has a inlet that wraps back around to the front which should eliminate firewall clearance issues. Keep my 5spd but dump the TOD transfer case for an earlier Amigo one per Buffy's setup.
I was reading an old thread in a different forum about the guy in AZ that swapped one into an Amigo. I'm sure a few of you know him. His build was very custom machine shop and welding intensive though. My preference would be to use as many off the shelf, or more appropriately, out of the junkyard parts. Borrowing parts of the Camaro RWD setup such as headers and accessory brackets.
I have 170k on my 3.5 now and no real problems except the usual oil usage. I'm just looking forward. At some point the engine will go and then what? Another 3.5 or a 3.2? Not a great platform with dwindling support, few performance options, and no tuning options. V8 options are a possibility, the easiest probably being the Northstar or Shortstar. This wouldn't be a bad way to go but head gasket problems on these are common and very expensive. I just like the idea of bulletproof SC V6 with lots of support and performance options.

[Leon R]

I keep going back and forth between turbocharging 3.5 or LS4 swap... I really do not see any other options that make sense.

[bartmanS4]

But since you can't tune our ECU doesn't that mean you have to limit the boost? Also, if you do any 4 wheeling a supercharger would be more desirable for low RPM torque. And of course that doesn't address our other issues with oil consumption and lack of new replacement parts.
I don't know much about the LS4, I think you should do that swap and create a tutorial :thumbup:

[44ficus44]

I just installed a SC on mine. still needs tuning... a lot... but I took it off roading and I halfto say. felt like a rally car. zipping through the turns.

[Leon R]

Who said you can't do tuning? Check out AEM-FIC ;)

I already have one....

1. I do not do any 4 wheeling
2. If I did, I would STILL use a turbo! Just a smaller one, for quicker spool! ;)

[44ficus44]

Who said you can't do tuning? Check out AEM-FIC ;)

I already have one....

1. I do not do any 4 wheeling
2. If I did, I would STILL use a turbo! Just a smaller one, for quicker spool! ;)

did u supercharge ure vx?

[WormGod]

I personally would love to do such a swap one day, but until she is over 20 years old, my options are very limited because of MD state inspection regs.

I would love to rescue a totaled WRX or STi, lighten the VX, swap the veins, brains, and guts, and then tune her to high heaven. This is all reliant on me winning tonight's Mega Millions though. ;)

[Leon R]

did u supercharge ure vx?

Did you really just asked me that? I thought I made it perfectly clear, that I prefer turbochargers to supercharger! :bgwo:

But I suspect that like most people, you do not bother with the destitution between turbo vs super chargers. ;)

I have not yet turbocharged my VX. I have to complete two other car projects (converting my Eclipse Spyder from FWD - Auto to AWD - 5sp manual and then installing 4G63 Mitsu engine in Triumph TR7) before I can undertake the turbo VX project. But I started collecting the parts and AEM FIC is the first step in my "master plan".

And as I have said, I am often tempted with the LS4 conversion... But that will only happen if someone develops (and sells) a good starter mount option.

As far SMOG is concerned, forced induction is easier to pull off than LS4 swap, but in Mass, that is only a concern for another 2 years. After 15 years, they stop checking OBD2 codes, so you can get away with almost anything ;)

[44ficus44]

Did you really just asked me that? I thought I made it perfectly clear, that I prefer turbochargers to supercharger! :bgwo:

But I suspect that like most people, you do not bother with the destitution between turbo vs super chargers. ;)

I have not yet turbocharged my VX. I have to complete two other car projects (converting my Eclipse Spyder from FWD - Auto to AWD - 5sp manual and then installing 4G63 Mitsu engine in Triumph TR7) before I can undertake the turbo VX project. But I started collecting the parts and AEM FIC is the first step in my "master plan".

And as I have said, I am often tempted with the LS4 conversion... But that will only happen if someone develops (and sells) a good starter mount option.

As far SMOG is concerned, forced induction is easier to pull off than LS4 swap, but in Mass, that is only a concern for another 2 years. After 15 years, they stop checking OBD2 codes, so you can get away with almost anything ;)

Hihi thats me ... i did ask. For the same reason. I was gonna say what happened to the turbo option you were thinking of hajaha.

[bartmanS4]

Reviving this old thread for Thrasher.

[VXorado]

Reviving this old thread for Thrasher.

...ah yes. We've been waiting for you to take the plunge Scotty! :naughty:

[thrashercharged]

So the 3800 FWD bolt pattern does not bolt directly to the 4L30e huh? Hmm - what bellhousing bolt pattern was on the 1st gen Troopers with the 2.8 V6? Was that a RWD pattern? I vaguely recall now - it's been a few years - that's why the 3.4L out of a F body was a popular swap (due to RWD) and not the FWD 60 deg V6's, right?

And the 3800 F bodies had a 4L60e with a removable bellhousing on them didn't they? Does our 4L30e have a removable or fixed bellhousing? So who makes an adapter to adapt between the GM FWD bolt pattern and the 4L30e? Cost?

The Northstars had a lot of head gasket issues and wouldn't they have the same bellhousing issue? Plus depending on the model year, most had the Siemans PCM and I don't know if anyone's reverse engineered that to program it.

The 3800 should fit better being smaller and it's durability is much better (once you address the intake issues on the L36). So just how weak is the 4L30e?

[Mile High VX]

So just how weak is the 4L30e?

I recall that it's only rated for 260 ft lbs of torque.

Numerous members here have had failures of this transmission so it has a poor reputation.

[thrashercharged]

Yeah, I know it's a weak tranny - I bought a 2002 Trooper with a bad tranny and haven't had time to dive into it yet - it's still parked at the shop.

So that 260 limit is just under the 280 ft-lbs output of the stock L67. I wonder what the Bimmer folks have done to improve the 4L30e. Once I have mine apart I guess I'll get a chance to see just how small the clutches and things are. But I'm not intending on ever putting slicks on a VX and taking it down the strip so the abuse shouldn't be as bad. I'm wondering if a shift kit and some higher friction clutches (don't know if Raybestos has any for this trans or not) and a bigger trans cooler will help it live.

I'm mainly interested in keeping the 4L30e just to make for an easier and cheaper swap and to keep the TOD as the TOD seems to be the heart of a VX. I assume the tailshaft of the 4L60e doesn't allow the TOD transfer case to fit?

[bartmanS4]

The 4L30e is a weak link but not necessarily because of it's torque rating. The failures seem to be associated with solenoids etc. I would highly suggest doing a 5 spd swap though and the AR5 is a pretty rugged option that allows you to maintain TOD.
The bolt pattern is 60^ GM for 4L30e and AR5.
Everything I've seen shows the 3800 using the same bolt pattern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_bellhousing_patterns

[thrashercharged]

"The bolt pattern is 60^ GM for 4L30e and AR5."

So wait, will the 3800 bolt up to our 4L30e or not? Someone said earlier in this thread that it would not and would need an adapter. I know the 3800 and 3400 (which is a 60 deg V6) - both are typically used in FWD vehicles - share the same bellhousing bolt pattern.

Solenoids have been a known failure item in earlier 4T65e too but I believe you can get fairly robust ones to replace with, so I'd assume the same for 4L30e.

I didn't know you could retain the TOD with the AR5 - that's the 5 speed used in later Troopers (1999-2002) isn't it?

So assuming that the 3800 will bolt right in, why hasn't this swap been done already? Is there a big issue with motor mounts or something? Seems the F body parts like exhaust manifolds should make this easy?

[bartmanS4]

So wait, will the 3800 bolt up to our 4L30e or not? Someone said earlier in this thread that it would not and would need an adapter. I know the 3800 and 3400 (which is a 60 deg V6) - both are typically used in FWD vehicles - share the same bellhousing bolt pattern.


I don't know for sure but everything I've seen as far as specs go says it should work. LeonR said it won't work but I don't know what info he's working with. He may be right though. I do have an AR5 bellhousing sitting in my garage. If I could find a L67 to test fit it to...



I didn't know you could retain the TOD with the AR5 - that's the 5 speed used in later Troopers (1999-2002) isn't it?

Yes, four that I know of have been done including mine.
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=21729&highlight=ar5+swap



So assuming that the 3800 will bolt right in, why hasn't this swap been done already? Is there a big issue with motor mounts or something? Seems the F body parts like exhaust manifolds should make this easy?

I think someone with an Amigo did it but no one has done this on a VX to the best of my knowledge. I suggest you do it and document it well so that when I do it I can learn from your mistakes. :yesgray:

[thrashercharged]

When I get around to pulling that 4L30e out of that Trooper I'll fit it to a L67 block and see if indeed they fit and take some pictures.

Do you or anyone already know of any fitment issues? Does the oil pan / starter clear or is that an unknown? Anyone already look at the width? Does it fit between the rails?

I suppose the AR5 does away with any tranny controls issues but I'd think the 4L30e and the 4T65e that the L67 came with are close enough so the L67 PCM can control the 4L30e with some wiring and programming.

The TOD has a controller completely separate from the engine/trans controls right? And so does the ABS? I'd assume all they really need from the PCM is engine RPM or something like that so that might be an issue. I wonder if it got this info via a CAN or GM ClassII bus or something? That'll be something to look into. I guess that'll be the only hic-up, the communication with the TOD/ABS stuff since the engine will not be running off the Isuzu controller.

[thrashercharged]

So I have a question about that TOD with the AR5 - Isuzu never had these working together from the factory right? The VX never got a AR5 and all the Trooper's with AR5 didn't get the TOD but got a conventional transfer case instead, right?

So did you just bolt the AR5 onto the TOD and it fit and just worked? Any negatives? If not, why didn't Isuzu offer that combo in the Trooper?

[bartmanS4]

AR5 will accept the TOD with minor grinding relief near the shifter housing. See the link above for details.
TOD works great with the AR5 and you get a better crawl ration because of the 1st gear being 3.95. I've since swapped my TOD out for a manual 2H, 4H, 4Lo TC but only because I want a larger crawl ratio.
As far as anyone who has driven the AR5/TOD combo we ALL agree Isuzu should have made them this way.

[Leon R]

Guys, I was talking about Grand National 3.8, which uses different transmission pattern. Looks like FWD Buicks 3800's will fit.

But... considering that LS4 is CHEAP and is direct bolt up to Isuzu, why would you ever consider anything else? ;)

[circmand]

AR5 will accept the TOD with minor grinding relief near the shifter housing. See the link above for details.
TOD works great with the AR5 and you get a better crawl ration because of the 1st gear being 3.95. I've since swapped my TOD out for a manual 2H, 4H, 4Lo TC but only because I want a larger crawl ratio.
As far as anyone who has driven the AR5/TOD combo we ALL agree Isuzu should have made them this way.

These small Crossover SUVs were already at $32,000+ At that the price point affected the sale. A bigger better Tranny probably would have added to the sticker.

[thrashercharged]

@LeonR - yeah, the GN was a BOP RWD pattern. Regarding the LS4, I've a few concerns:

1. It's longer, so harder to fit behind the radiator
2. No factory RWD exhaust manifolds ready to bolt on
3. Harder to find in boneyards than the 3800
4. I have to admit I haven't priced 'em, but they've got to be more costly than the L36 or L67 in boneyards? The Flint engine plant made almost a million or more 3800's so they're everywhere.
5. Something about the starter needing to be mounted differently?

Aside from these reasons, I'm also just more familiar with the 3800's and their control systems and integrating it into another vehicle, etc. and I know very little in comparison about the LS4. I've ready access to 3800's and don't have a LS4, so the choice is obvious for me. But regardless, I think for anyone, the much more affordable build will be the 3800 from many reasons - one being that you can use the stock PCM and wiring harness that you'll probably get for free with the engine - no need to spend the money on Megasquirt, etc. and stock either the L36 or L67 will give comparable power to the original 3.5L (so you don't have to worry about stressing the 4L30e) and if trans durability isn't a concern, the L67 can be modified to make plenty enough power.

I have to agree that if you have your heart set on a V8 for that V8 exhaust note if nothing else, the LS4 is definitely the way to go over any other LS series due to the FWD bolt pattern. So how cheap is a LS4? Are they easy to find? So no one wants them due to the bolt pattern?

Anyone have any comments on how the TOD and ABS controller interface with the PCM?

@circmand - I see you're from Greenville, MS? I'm from MS - my wife's from Greenville but it's been over 20 years ago. Got married there @ 1st Baptist. Is the drag strip still open? I got stopped by the cops drag racing a buddy's '84 Mustang GT against another buddy's brand new '86 GT while a guy that just bought a GN off the showroom floor paced us ('cause it was no contest that it was faster!) at 3:00 AM on Hwy 82 coming into town back in the day when we were young and stupid! We stop at Doe's Eat Place whenever we're back now days and don't mind spending the money!

[circmand]

@circmand - I see you're from Greenville, MS? I'm from MS - my wife's from Greenville but it's been over 20 years ago. Got married there @ 1st Baptist. Is the drag strip still open? I got stopped by the cops drag racing a buddy's '84 Mustang GT against another buddy's brand new '86 GT while a guy that just bought a GN off the showroom floor paced us ('cause it was no contest that it was faster!) at 3:00 AM on Hwy 82 coming into town back in the day when we were young and stupid! We stop at Doe's Eat Place whenever we're back now days and don't mind spending the money![/QUOTE]

Just moved to G-Ville back in May. This place is dead. I haven't been to Doe's due to the previously mentioned $$$$. No on the drag strip I get frustrated driving around here due to people driving in both lanes 10-15 under the speed limit.

[bartmanS4]

This guy put one in an Amigo ten years ago:
http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=611201&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

[Triathlete]

Dans Amigo was quite a project. He no longer has it. Pretty much destroyed it in a wheeling trip....lots of damage and I think he parted it out instead of fixing. One thing broke and took out a lot of other stuff when it did.

[Leon R]

Actually, you left out #1 problem with LS4, it lacks provisions for starter mounting. Your other concerns are rather trivial, comparing to everything else that has to be done during a motor swap.

I have seen them as low as $500-$700. This one was 2 miles from my home:

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=181595245407

I am not sure if stock 3800 offers enough performance increase to warrant to be considered for a swap. You should be able to add force induction to 3.5 with similar results.

[thrashercharged]

Thanks for the link to Dan's Amigo. Does he post on this forum or only on 4x4wire?

How do people handle the starter mounting on the LS4? I suppose having a longer engine and having to weld up custom exhaust headers could be trivial.

My interest in the 3800s is to find the absolute cheapest and easiest swap to get a reliable Trooper/VX that's comparable or better on power and easy and cheap to maintain. I agree that a stock L36/L67 isn't a great power increase but that's not my main goal. I'm thinking of the best/cheapest alternative for saving the Troopers/VXs getting scrapped due to the 3.5 oiling issue. Forced induction on the 3.5 doesn't solve that! Near stock power would help the 4L30e too, and it seems like overhauling the trans during the engine swap and replacing the solenoids and doing some minor updates/upgrades to the 4L30e might make it reliable enough.

Since the Trooper/VX came with a V6, it just seems easier to drop another V6 in there but I must admit I haven't looked closely at how much room there is in front for a V8 - maybe there's so much room it's a non-issue, but I just figure an engine of similar dimensions as the 3.5L has got to be easier.

I'm not keen on the LS4 because (aside from the starter issue) I just personally don't know it well enough to know how to integrate it's control system into the Isuzu. Yeah, I know we can use aftermarket ECMs like Megasquirts but that just adds cost as one can just about always get the entire 3800 wiring harness and PCM thrown in for free. And since the Isuzu and L36/L67 both used the same GMPX style/series PCM with the same connectors (just change the colored plastic header to the right color ones) one could potentially re-pin and integrate the Isuzu and L36/L67 harnesses together and just about make that 3800 swap look factory.

Maybe I'm being naive since I haven't had the opportunity to attempt this swap yet, but I'm hoping the oil pan fits and F body exhaust manifolds bolt in perfectly, so the only custom thing to fabricate would be motor mounts and a U turn on the intake to turn it away from the firewall. Yeah, I know Holdens have a U turn (I was actually there when the guys initially mocked it up) but it turns the wrong way for us since their cars are RHD. I think our steering shaft would be in the way.

Anyway, I'm thinking the 3800 would be perfect for a really cheap swap that wouldn't cost much more than the cost of the engine + F body headers & related exhaust work + motor mounts + induction U turn mods + throttle cable mods + fuel line mods + misc wiring mods. That would be about as simple as any swap could be.

[Triathlete]

Unfortunately Dan is pretty much MIA on the Isuzu boards. When he did post it was on the 4x4 wire.

[Leon R]

LSx is THE most popular engine to swap into anything. Originally this was done because of its performance and relatively low price, now, however this engine has unbelievable amont of aftermarket to support engine swaps! That, alone, makes it a great engine to swap in!

As for starter, I saw two options we discussed them in LS4 threat:

http://vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=24246

[tpunk]

I know this is a bit of an older thread, but if anyone need any info on the 3800-II that's actually an engine I'm very familiar with. I had a 2001 v6 firebird for years and was very active in the v6 community. It is imo one of the most reliable engines ever made. It is also a much better option than a series 1 these days. I can help dig up info on sourcing the Holden supercharger if anyone gets that far. Just know you need L67 heads for that as the injector bosses are in the head on the supercharged engines and in the intake manifold on the NA L36.

[ipd]

I'll cut against the grain and say that a DOHC 6g74 swap from a Montero would actually be an awesome idea--especially when you can bolt up all the stock twin-turbo bits from a GTO. You'd probably have to use the Mitsu trans if you mounted it transverse, but an adapter might be able to make the stock trans work long-ways. Don't listen to the armchair pundits. the 6G7x is a great engine.

[swanny]

I think my engine seized up on me last night (lack of oil, even though I just put in a couple quarts a couple weeks ago) It's in the shop now so it's not for sure yet. Anyway, need to start thinking about either a swap or selling the rig. Is the 3800 a good option? Would it be much more $$$ to do the LS4?

Mine is supercharged right now so losing that would suck, but at this point this vx has been nothing but a money pit (granted, my fault for wanting mods :D ) so I am not sure what to do.

[rtormet]

Ive always wanted to see the swap done on the VX. Thought about doing it myself but i didnt want to be the first to try!

[rtormet]

Mine is supercharged right now so losing that would suck, but at this point this vx has been nothing but a money pit (granted, my fault for wanting mods :D ) so I am not sure what to do.

I think you should try the swap! And sell me your supercharger ;)

[Leon R]

I think my engine seized up on me last night (lack of oil, even though I just put in a couple quarts a couple weeks ago) It's in the shop now so it's not for sure yet. Anyway, need to start thinking about either a swap or selling the rig. Is the 3800 a good option? Would it be much more $$$ to do the LS4?

Mine is supercharged right now so losing that would suck, but at this point this vx has been nothing but a money pit (granted, my fault for wanting mods :D ) so I am not sure what to do.

Well, consider the age of this thread and still nothing concrete :(

If I was in your position, I would get another stock engine (with lower mileage) and put it in. I often see Troopers with blown trannies for as little as $600. Buy one of those, keep the engine (and perhaps a few other parts, like: TOD and rear end), trash the rest. You might even be able to get $100-$200 for scrap metal.

[Etfren]

Has anyone considered the cost of a swap and all the time a headache involved, vs. building an improved 3.5? Wouldn't getting a re-man engine that already has the piston issues fixed and then its a direct bolt in swap be easier, cheaper and more reliable in the end?

I'm not against engine swaps, but I am a fan of the stock 3.5 and keeping the TOD seems to be a major concern for most people. I barely use TOD and leave my front hubs unlocked most of the time, so loosing it isn't much of a concern for me.

Also, on the whole Northstar V8 route. I would never want one of those piles in my engine bay. I've never seen one that doesn't leak and they are a nightmare to work on. The 3.8 V6's aren't bad, but I know they have plenty of their own problems with intake leaks and carbon build up.