transfer case issues?

[evillecutter]

i havent been on vxinfo in a while (family/work keeps me busy) but after lots of searching there does not seem to be a good thread on diagnosing and/or repairing transfer case problems (im sure ill be proven wrong) so i thought i would start something that might help someone in the future - i have been having troubles with my vx making odd noises and bucking like its in 4lo when taking normal turns - it gets worse the sharper the turn - sometimes to the point of a grinding noise - no check engine or check tod lights at all - changed the fluid in both pumpkins, transfer case, and trans but didnt help - well after everyone telling me its my cv joints or a bushing or something in the suspension or front end i finally took it to a couple of reputable local service shops - had 3 ase certified shops tell me it has to be the transfer case - all 3 shops also said they would not touch said transfer case with a 10 foot pole - so i found a shop the next town over that specialized in drivelines and does a lot of work on semis, monster trucks, and the occasional hardcore off road vehicles as well as service diffs and transmissions on any vehicle - after talking to one of the mechanics there the guy slid underneath the vx and says "doesn't seem like anything unusual - ill take it out, check it, and if its broke i'll fix it" that was 3 days ago - ill let you know how it goes...

anyone else with transfer case issues feel free to chime in and give whatever input they want - if mine gets fixed i will ask the mechanic what specifically went wrong and how i can try to prevent it from happening again - hopefully he will save the broken parts so i can take pics and post them

[bartmanS4]

In case you need a replacement here is on somebody is selling in Colorado.
http://denver.craigslist.org/pts/3693873276.html

[evillecutter]

says ad deleted by author but thanks anyways!

[bartmanS4]

Damn, that was quick. I just viewed it before I posted. Doh!

[JoFotoz]

Are you 100% sure its not cladding/metal at front & rear of front wheel well...

...catching on tire?

I had this when I first went to 33's.

It felt like car was 'lifting up"..then dropping down....especially tight turns...

..and lots of grinding noises.


Just a thought..hope its right ....cause its a cheap fix !

Jo

[bartmanS4]

Here is that same one off CL reposted.

http://denver.craigslist.org/pts/3761588150.html

[LittleBeast]

I am actually in need of a transfer case. Mine is making all kinds of bad noises right now. When I put it in reverse it shakes and clatters so bad!

If you don't want that transfer case, can someone in that area go check it out for me?

[evillecutter]

i have no lift and stock tires - thought it was maybe a problem in the power steering gearbox but three different shops said it was not a problem in the front end or alignment - 4 days now at $60+/hour times 36+ hours its been there plus whatever parts is making me nervous - might have an excellent proton for sale soon

[tom4bren]

A fairly cheap alternative is to put locking hubs on your VX. It won't fix the source problem but it would make the VX driveable.

A couple of other no-cost things to try:

1. make sure the transfer case shifter is all the way in TOD. If it's partway between TOD and 4LO, some very wonky things can happen.

2. Take the VX to a large open dirt or gravel area. Put it in reverse & really punch the throttle (enough to make the tires spin). Try running a few tight figure 8's in reverse also. Then take her back onto asphault & check to see if the mechanical linkage has fully disengaged.

[evillecutter]

got a call from the guys yesterday afternoon - said they got the transfer case out and all of the clutches are sheared off whatever that means - they found a dealership in louisville that has the parts now they are just waiting for them to get there - also said "apparently these things are kinda rare" - they seem like nice guys but im sure its gonna cost me a fortune

[tom4bren]

... all of the clutches are sheared off ... but im sure its gonna cost me a fortune

Sorry to hear that. Hope it all works out OK though. BOL.

BTW, mebbe it is time for locking hubs though to make those new clutches last longer.

[evillecutter]

i never quite got what the purpose of locking hubs were and exactly what they do could you explain in layman's terms for me please

[tom4bren]

They disconnect each front wheel from the driveline. It just takes a 1 (360 deg) turn of the thumbwheel at each front tire to either lock or unlock the hubs. Theoretically, with the hubs unlocked I could run in 4L (without drive going to the front wheels) on pavement without trashing the transfer case.

I've been running WARN hubs for a couple of years now ... beautimous! I didn't install them to improve fuel mileage but some people say that it helps. I installed them so that I could tow the VX 4 down behind the RV (also installed a quick disconnect on the driveshaft for same reason). Travelin2 had a write up thread on it a few years ago. I bought his set up when he traded his VX in.

BTW, the WARN hubs require a full turn to engage, other brands may only require a 1/4 turn or something. You should be able to pick up a set from a Trooper at a boneyard.

Tom

[evillecutter]

so if i install locking hubs i would not have tod? and then if i wanted 4lo or tod i would have to get out and manually unlock them? (or have an air system to do it form inside?) would i just need locking hubs for the front? they look like they replace our centercaps do you have to leave them off? i know i know twenty questions but im a noob to this thanks for the help

also, couldnt someone come and lock or unlock your hubs withoug you knowing - like in a parking lot or something? do they make locks for the locks?

and if you have them locked out and get stuck and cant move the wheels an entire rotation you would basically be stuck with no 4wd correct?

[tom4bren]

so if i install locking hubs i would not have tod?

Yah, you still have TOD ... if you leave the hubs locked. Basically just leave them unlocked for the urban crawling but lock them if you'll be driving in conditions that may cause slip. In my old Samurai, I would lock the hubs before I left the house if there was snow on the ground & I could shift from 2H to 4H on the fly (still had to stop if I needed to shift into 4L though).

and then if i wanted 4lo or tod i would have to get out and manually unlock them? (or have an air system to do it form inside?)

yes

would i just need locking hubs for the front?

yes

they look like they replace our centercaps do you have to leave them off?

yes, the center caps (as well as the metal slug underneath) are replaced by the locking hub. You can always switch back if you don't like them & find someone else on the forum who'll buy them.

There are pics in my gallery of them installed on my VX. I think I did a write up on installation too - should only take about 30 min.

i know i know twenty questions but im a noob to this thanks for the help

also, couldnt someone come and lock or unlock your hubs withoug you knowing - like in a parking lot or something?

Yup (It's only happened to me once though & it doesn't hurt anything if they do)

do they make locks for the locks?

Nope

and if you have them locked out and get stuck and cant move the wheels an entire rotation you would basically be stuck with no 4wd correct?

There's always a chance that you could be cruising down a dirt road (not needing 4WD so you don't have the hubs locked in) & accidentally slide off of the trail into a tadpole pond (right Eric???):). The point is that when the hubs are locked in, the VX operates just like it did from the factory. When you unlock the hubs, there's no drive to the front wheels. So ... lock in the hubs if you are leaving pavement & leave them unlocked the rest of the time.



Dang son, I ain't never seen anyone quite so good at threadjacking their own dang thread!!!

[evillecutter]

thanks tom!!! - yeah i did get a little off topic didnt i..... :goof:

[tom4bren]

ROFL

Yer allowed ... & you actually have a way to go to match the standards set by Ldub.:)

[evillecutter]

i guess it could be important info to someone who is looking to AVOID transfer case issues so it might help - im giving them some serious thought - i dont want to go through this again - this has been an issue that came and went with my vx since i bought it - looking foreward to driving it once its fixed and actually working the way it was supposed to

[tom4bren]

Not to mention the fun that can be had doing donuts in a snow covered parking lot if the front drive is disengaged.

But I should highlight what was buried in the earlier conversation: installing locking hubs will not significantly improve fuel consumption. There are good reasons for the upgrade ... but that's not one of them.

[evillecutter]

ok jsut got off the phone with the driveline guy - he said he has been doing this for 30+ years - putting locking hubs on an awd vehicle without changing the transfer case is a bad bad deal he said - locking hubs are not for awd at all - he said it will eventually build up and cause the viscious coupling that tears the clutches apart - he also said he is having a hard time finding the bearings for the transfer case - im looking up merlin's # and going tyo see how much they run through him - apparently the dealership in louisville, ky that they were using for parts only has one - thoughts?

talked to merlin - he agrees with the driveline shop about the manual hubs but cant find the bearings either - apparently there are 4 bearings - 3 are the same and easily found - one has its own part # and there are none in the u.s. :(

driveline shop says reusing the bearing should not be a problem they look new but they need the 3 seals...calling merlin again...

merlin says no go on the seals either - none in the united states - apparently our transfer case is unique - no other vehicle even other isuzus have the same transfer case - he said it is VERY rare that these transfer cases have any mechanical issues - the tod sensors and stuff go out all the time but never a mechanical problem with the actual insides of the tcase - he ordered the seals but minimum of 6 to 8 weeks for them to fill a boat with enough stuff to justify throwing my 3 tiny seals in with all the other crap to float to the u.s. :_brickwal

i asked the driveline guys what they think about putting an entirely different transfer case in and disable the tod and whateve all together and he said "it could be done if i caould find a tcase to fit in there but i cant think of any that would"

stupid vehicross

they are going to try to make the seals seeing as nothing cross references - the guy said his contact for bearings laughed when he said he was working on a vehicross - he also said "man i thought this thing was kinda silly until we put it up on the lift - this thing is SERIOUSLY bad ***"

[tom4bren]

If the TX guy has already disassembled yours, then you should be able to get measurements from the bearings that need to be replaced (I'm talking micrometer type measurements though). With those measurements, you should be able to buy a COTS equivalent bearing that just doesn't have Isuzu's number stamped into it.

Years ago, when I was rebuilding a tranny on my Samurai, I was having problems finding some of the bearings. One bearing issue was solved by Suzuki. They no longer stocked the "OEM" bearing but cross referenced it to a newer part. The only difference between the two bearings was that one was sealed & one was not. The second issue was solved by myself & a buddy who custom made airplane parts that were no longer manufactured. We basically lathed a brass bushing to fit in place of a bushing that could no longer be ordered.

After having said all that, the point is that you can probably get'r done but you'll have to think outside the box.

Maybe it's time to check into a used transfer case to get your VX running while you collect the parts to rebuild your original.

[tom4bren]

ok jsut got off the phone with the driveline guy - he said he has been doing this for 30+ years - putting locking hubs on an awd vehicle without changing the transfer case is a bad bad deal he said - locking hubs are not for awd at all - he said it will eventually build up and cause the viscious coupling that tears the clutches apart ...

I'll have to agree to disagree with your expert ... at least in regard to the VehiCross.

If we had a chain driven transfer case like the NP203 from back in the 70's, I'd say he was spot on. If we had a transfer case like Toyota used in the Land Cruisers back in the early 90's, I'd agree as well.

Our transfer case however works much like an open differential ... at least until it senses wheel slip. Then the magic of the electric clutches happens & power is diverted to the front. The locking hubs won't cause 'build up'.

[Triathlete]

Non tod trooper case should work if you still want to go that route. The lo gearing is not as low though.

[evillecutter]

either way im apparently the only person in history that doesnt do serious off roading that has ever had to rebuild a borg warner transfer case - they said they are some of the toughest tcases made and they almost never see them unless its from some serious construction equipment or one of ford's more heavy duty work trucks

when i asked the driveline guy what he think happened he just kind of shook his head and said it was probably owned by a 17 year old girl before i bought it and i have bad luck

so thats where im at - need the seals to get it back together - at least the guys seemed to look at it like a challenge rather thatn a get it out of my shop i dont want to mess with it anymore type of thing - he seemed pretty confident if no other car on earth ever had the same seals thean he will be able to make them somehow - and if that doesnt work i wait for merlin's magic boat from japan

by the way this was my first call to merlin - all the talk about him is true hes a nice guy very friendly and helpful

[evillecutter]

If we had a chain driven transfer case like the NP203 from back in the 70's, I'd say he was spot on. If we had a transfer case like Toyota used in the Land Cruisers back in the early 90's, I'd agree as well.



he did say my chain was severley stretched out

[tom4bren]

Yah, but the NP203 didn't have the 'lectric clutches.

It sounds to me like the previous owner SERIOUSLY abused that VX. The chain was probably stretched by using 4L on dry pavement. Not sure why the clutch plates would have sheared off though.

[Marlin]

I am not sure I believe the transfer case thing. The late model 3rd gen troopers use the same transfer case as us and there are tons of those in the yards. I would just do a 5 speed swap if you are that worried.
I have been running manual hubs for 4 years, cross country drive, I regularly wheel the old girl with a front locker to boot, and I have no problems.
JoeD put a manual transfer case in his VX, so it is easily doable.
Good luck!

[evillecutter]

thanks guys - im no expert when it comes to this - personally i dont see how manual hubs would hurt anything at all except for having no tod - as far as the transfer case goes if they can find or make the seals it should be good as new so i dont need a new transfer case but i have a set of seals ordered from japan anyways just in case (could be 8 weeks) maybe they can help someone in the future if i dont end up needing them

[evillecutter]

talked to the guys again today - they said there is no such thing as a making new seals and he has been doing this for 30+ years and has never heard of any type of company that can do that - i said "well arent they jsut big o rings?" and he said "no they are seals" ........ i tried calling places that i thought might do that type of fabrication but everyone else told me the exact same thing that it cannot be done

so basically my vx is sitting in a garage for the next two months until the friggin japan boat comes to town

i cant use another transfer case for parts because taking the seals out ruins the seal -

im not buying a used transfer case because ther is a good chance it will be junk too and im not spending another grand when this has already been torn down and 90% back together - any other suggestions?

anyone ever ordered these seals from another company besides isuzu? so far rockauto and partsgeek have given me nothing but wrong parts...

[nocturnalVX]

My transfer case is going as well. Merlin gave me the same info about how it is very unusual for ISUZU transfer cases to go bad (I guess we are just lucky) and that our TC is vehicle specific to the VehiCROSS (no Trooper donors for us). The plan is to have mine rebuilt while Cece and I are on vacation. I was going to buy a used one off a fellow member, but that deal apparently fell through... I will post an update when I get back from the trip and have all the info.

[bartmanS4]

I read though and didn't see but may have missed it. Do we know exactly why a Trooper TOD won't work? Tranny is the same and these just bolt to the drive shafts so I don't get it. :_confused

[nocturnalVX]

I was told that, although the VX shares parts with both the Trooper and the Rodeo, the transfer case is not shared by either. Why? That I do not know. I was also told that they are no longer available, so the only 2 choices are to rebuild or find a used VehiCROSS transfer case.

[Triathlete]

The 4lo gearing is different in the VX and Trooper tcases I believe. Other than thaI think they are the same and interchangable.

[Marlin]

Yep, which means other parts are interchangeable, or for those that don't wheel, 4low gearing from a Trooper would be just fine.

[bartmanS4]

I just looked through the Trooper and VX manuals and both the TOD transfer cases list:
High - 1.000
Low - 2.480

I think the difference comes in with the Trooper having 2H, 4H, and 4L modes and the VX only has 4H and 4L. The Trooper one uses a solenoid and shift levers to switch between 2H and 4H.

I had a conversation with Buffy with regards to 5 spd tranny and TOD and manual transfer cases. He said that he was going to use a manual T/C from an older Amigo or Rodeo if my memory serves. I don't recall the details so perhaps you can contact him on this. He said that it was a lower ratio also so would be better for crawling.

[nocturnalVX]

I found out that the chain stretched so much that it was sawing away on the inside of my case. My mechanic is getting a sleeve for it from a company out of California... The sleve will be heliarced into the case to prevent leaks, and making it stronger as an added bonus. E.T.A. on complete repair is now Friday. Once I get my VX back I will be sure to post all information here.

[evillecutter]

I found out that the chain stretched so much that it was sawing away on the inside of my case. My mechanic is getting a sleeve for it from a company out of California... The sleve will be heliarced into the case to prevent leaks, and making it stronger as an added bonus. E.T.A. on complete repair is now Friday. Once I get my VX back I will be sure to post all information here.

please please please let me in on where you found replacement seals! i have called everywhere in the united states - i even talked to a rep from borg warner and he said no other seals will work not even out of another isuzu tcase - he said they did put two of the identical seals in the tcase on some ford trucks but the other seal (1 of 3) is an isuzu unique part - unfortunately isuzu north america told me that they sold their rights to make parts to gm in '07 - unfortunate for us gm never decided to actually make any of the part because there was no money in it... after making isuzu sign a contract that says that they cannot make any new ones either only sell what they have - if you find that last seal please let me know

this is from borg werner after i talked to him on the phone he emailed me:

Isuzu seal # 8971270400 can be purchased from a Ford Dealer. The Ford part number is F3TZ-7B215-A

Isuzu seal # 8971270410 is unique to Isuzu, but should be available from any authorized Isuzu Dealer.

all isuzu to gm parts - isuzu told me - are the isuzu part number with the first and last numbers dropped so if gm made it it would be part #97127041 - gm says they have no record of that part #

all three said there is no cross reference

[nocturnalVX]

I will post any and all info as soon as I get my VX back with all the info on the repairs.

[nocturnalVX]

First, the good... I got the VX back today (what a treat to be driving it again), and the nocturnal VX is shifting smoother and running quieter than she has in a long time! :thumbup:

Now, the bad... $1400 more on plastic. :eek: and my mechanic did not give me all the info on the parts & sources because it was a very busy Friday.

I PROMISE to share all the info when I get it. :work:

I really liked the 2door Wrangler I drove on vacation, but there is nothing that comes close to a VehiCROSS!

[44ficus44]

man... i hate reading these things.. now i think my trnsfers going.... when i put it into drive or reverse i heare a grinding and clacking noise. sometimes nothing, other times(specially after stippoing at a light) it sounds as if a rock was grinding on the floor boared :(..... dohhhh

[evillecutter]

First, the good... I got the VX back today (what a treat to be driving it again), and the nocturnal VX is shifting smoother and running quieter than she has in a long time! :thumbup:

Now, the bad... $1400 more on plastic. :eek: and my mechanic did not give me all the info on the parts & sources because it was a very busy Friday.

I PROMISE to share all the info when I get it. :work:

I really liked the 2door Wrangler I drove on vacation, but there is nothing that comes close to a VehiCROSS!


im really glad you got yours fixed with no problems other than the roundhouse kick to the wallet (actually that sounds like a fairly good deal for a rebuild) - please let me know part #'s and where to find on the seals when you can - very much appreciated

[evillecutter]

magical merlin strikes again! got my isuzu tcase seals yesterday and brought them to the driveline shop - the guys there are very cool and talked to me for about a half hour about the vx before i got out of there and they could start working on it - total price for rebuild with all new parts is less than $700 (plus my $70 seals)

all 5 gearheads in the shop at the time agreed that if they remade the vx today they would sell like hotcakes

asked them how a shop in chicago did a rebuild in two days without ordering the seals from japan and they said either they already had some in the shop (highly unlikely) or they reused the old ones which is a bad idea and they refuse to do that there

[evillecutter]

ok finally got the vx back and its driving great - apparently the guy i talked to before was only reading me the parts price list (which he thought was the total) and the owner who i talked to when i picked it up said he was sorry i was misinformed

total price: $1485.00

on the bright side this fixed the bump stop problem of when i come to stop and then let off the brakes as well as the clunk that came with downshifting from second to first

...and it turns without making any noise

me = happy
my wallet = sad

[LittleBeast]

This is listed as the "BEARING & SEAL OVERHAUL KIT" for our transfer case, wouldn't this include seals? This is readily available.

http://www.amazon.com/Timken-TRKFI190/dp/B000C86Y8C/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1373341384&sr=1-1&keywords=TRKFI190

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1373554,parttype,16049

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1119137&cc=1373554

[evillecutter]

This is listed as the "BEARING & SEAL OVERHAUL KIT" for our transfer case, wouldn't this include seals? This is readily available.

http://www.amazon.com/Timken-TRKFI190/dp/B000C86Y8C/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1373341384&sr=1-1&keywords=TRKFI190

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1373554,parttype,16049

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1119137&cc=1373554

i asked the shop about these kits and they said one of these kits is what they ordered first and even if the seals would have been correct (which they were not) these replacement parts are junk and some shops might use them but they would not

i also needed a chain and clutches which were the expensive parts anyways and they are not included in these kits

in the end all of my parts came from isuzu

[LittleBeast]

I ordered the kit from Amazon and it is out of stock, went to put it in my cart on RockAuto and then a few minutes later got a message saying it is now out of stock.

[evillecutter]

sorry i should have ordered more than one set when i got mine from merlin to help anyone out down the road - hindsight = 20/20