Timing Belt Change Question

[TexasProton]

Hello Yall,
I am in the middle of changing my timing belt. I am not feeling good about what I am looking at as far as the timing marks on the pulleys vs. the marks on the engine:

1- The camshaft pulleys did not spring out in motion when I removed the tensioner...Which I understand that is ok
2- the mark on the LH pulley is spot on with the mark on engine
3- The mark on the RH pulley seems to be about a tooth off the mark on the engine...Before the 2 Clock mark
4- The mark on the Crankshaft pulley seems to be a tooth above the mark on the engine...The notch Bart described in his post is 180 degrees the other way...Almost at the 2 Clock position rather than at the 8 clock position where the timing mark is

I rotated the engine several times before I removed the old belt but the three pulleys never lined perfectly (I did not remove the spark plugs before I rotated the engine)...They ended up as I described them above.

Questions:

1- Should I adjust the LH and crankshaft pulleys to make them line up exactly with the marks on the engine?
2- Should I leave it alone?

Currently, the two lines line up with the marks on the RH & LH pulleys, and the double line (not a dotted line) lines up with the mark on the engine, but the mark on the pulley is one notch past the 8 clock position going towards 9 clock

The other question I have is about the timing belt gasket...the gasket looks a little rough, but not too bad, should I reuse it, or use silicon?

Thanks a lot for your help

[Triathlete]

When I changed
mine the marks did not line up with the old belt on since it was streched. Before putting new belt on I aligned all marks. They stayed that way with new belt installed. She started right up and purred like a kitten. So yes, line up all marks. As for the gasket, I reused mine. It is basically just a dust cover.

[TexasProton]

Thanks for your reply Billy. What concerns me is that with the old belt the mark on the crankshaft sprocket never lined up with the mark on the engine no matter how many times I turned the engine. After installing the new belt I noticed both camshaft pulleys moved back (Counter clockwise) almost too teeth. So now with new belt installed None of the marks are lined up (The two camshaft pulleys are before the marks, and the crankshaft sprocket is after the mark. I have a real bad feeling about this!!.... I did not move any of the pulleys since I removed the old timing belt!!

Should I go back, remove the belt and manually move each pulley to make it line up with the corresponding mark on the engine, or am I close enough??

Thanks a gain for your help

[Triathlete]

I would move them so they line up. More than likely your old belt was stretched, as mine was.
Did you use an oem belt or aftermarket?
I used an oem and everything lined up perfectly.

Also while in there did you do a new water pump? I figured I didn't want to ha e to worry about tearing it down again for a water pump so did that at the same time. My old one still looked great so I kept it for a spare.

[TexasProton]

I used an aftermarket I bought from Rockauto.com for about $180, it was a Goodyear kit that came with everything including the water pump and gasket. I will remove the belt and manually line up all the pulleys with the marks on the engine...Hopefully this does the trick, I really don't want to open it up again after I put the radiator and AC compressor back in there

Thanks again for the tip...I'll post the results as soon as I am done

[rowhard]

. I will remove the belt and manually line up all the pulleys with the marks on the engine...

make sure #1 is at the top of compression and not exhaust or whatever the manual says it is suppose to be

[TexasProton]

I just spoke with a friend who did not recommend adjusting the pulleys independently...Now I am confused and have no idea what to do!! On the one hand I am thinking I should leave it alone, because it worked just fine with the marks where they are before I removed the old belt. But then everyone says the marks on the pulleys need to be lined up with the marks on the engine...Houston...we have a disaster in the making!!!

[Triathlete]

Heres the problem in your friends thinking...
Your marks were off because your old belt was stretched. Your computer will compensate to a certain extent. By putting your new belt on without lining up your marks, when your new belt begins to stretch your marks will be even further off. How far they can be off and the computer compensate I don't know but eventually the computer won't be able to compensate and then you may run into some serious timing issues.
Just my two cents...hope it made sense.

[TexasProton]

Thanks Billy, I'd feel better if the marks were all lined up. So you don't think I will hurt anything if I remove the timing belt and manually move each pulley until they all line up? When I removed the old belt all the pulleys stayed put and did not move at all. the reason why I am concerned is because everything I read pointed to not move the crankshaft sprocket once the timing belt was removed!!

Thanks again

[PK]

Having done the timing belt change myself, I think you have started off in the wrong position.
If the #1 cylinder was at TDC as supposed, when you removed the old belt the camshafts would of moved because the valve springs push the cams over. It has to happen.
You then clamp the new belt onto the cams with the marks lined up, and when you release the new tensioner, it all pulls back into line.
There used to be a full procedure on here that talked through how to re-establish timing after the timing had been lost. Now that Deermagnet has gone, I am not sure if it is still here.

I hope I am wrong, but I think you have some work ahead of you.

PK

[TexasProton]

Man...I guess the damn thing is not going to be running anytime soon!! How do I check to make sure that the #1 cylinder is at TDC? If I start turning the engine again, I am definitely going to screw everything up...I was already clueless when things were simple, now that things have gotten much more complicated...I am totally lost! I thought I could follow Bart's instructions, but I sure did not get the same results as he did as I was following his steps! I think Billy is correct, the old belt was stretched out to the point were the marking on the pulleys were not going to line up any more while the old belt was on!

[jasonm621]

First all I found this link to be a HUGE HELP! If timing is or isnt lost it shows how to get your belt on right! http://vehicross.info/modules.php?name=Content&file=viewarticle&id=37
I know this doesnt help your current situation but my tip may help other avoid a timing belt oopsie... When i did my timing belt & water pump i manually moved the crank shaft so that all timing marks (both camshaft pullys & crank shaft pully) were next to the belt. I then took a silver sharpie and marked on the belt where the timing marks line up. I then took the belt off. I could then compare those lines to the new belt to confirm the spacing was correct. Or if the new belt didnt have timing marks on them then i could transfer the marks on the new belt. Hope all the best. I know the scary feeling you get once the belt is off and you wont know if you did the job right until you get everything patched up. And if you did it wrong you literally have to do EVERYTHING ALL OVER AGAIN! Here is also a video of changing the water pump and timing belt in 15 seconds... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve_nAX0OqWE
Good luck hope all the best!
I want to also note that the VX engine is a non-interference engine, so you at least have that on your side... That and plenty of people willing to help on the forums!

[Lfen]

There are a lot of different how to videos and instructions out there, but I just did mine and this helped me more then the Schematics and vids. Actual photos with instructions of the steps needed to be taken. Hope it helps

http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/tbelt.htm

[jasonm621]

There are a lot of different how to videos and instructions out there, but I just did mine and this helped me more then the Schematics and vids. Actual photos with instructions of the steps needed to be taken. Hope it helps

http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/tbelt.htm

I used this link as well when i did mine! HUGE HELP! I was having a tough time finding the link last night.. Good find Lfen!

[PK]

First all I found this link to be a HUGE HELP! If timing is or isnt lost it shows how to get your belt on right! http://vehicross.info/modules.php?name=Content&file=viewarticle&id=37
When i did my timing belt & water pump i manually moved the crank shaft so that all timing marks (both camshaft pullys & crank shaft pully) were next to the belt. I then took a silver sharpie and marked on the belt where the timing marks line up. I then took the belt off. I could then compare those lines to the new belt to confirm the spacing was correct. Or if the new belt didnt have timing marks on them then i could transfer the marks on the new belt.
I want to also note that the VX engine is a non-interference engine, so you at least have that on your side... That and plenty of people willing to help on the forums!


Good post Jason.
The old belt would not have stretched that much that your timing marks are out. Any stretch in the belt is compensated for by the belt tensioner. Otherwise the engine would not run.

The most important steps are -
1. Line all the marks on the pullies and the block up.
2. Use a marking pen to clearly mark the belt at the pully marks.
3. Release the tensioner, and remove the old belt.
4. Transfer the marks on the old belt to the new belt, using the number of teeth as the guide.
5. Fit the new belt lining up the belt marks with the pully marks, and clamp the belt in place using butterfly clamps (from your stationary supplies). Then release the new tensioner and the slack goes out of the new belt and everything should line up.

If you have started from the wrong position, the link Jason attached will explain how to get it all back in line.

Good luck.

PK

[TexasProton]

Thank you all for all your tips and replies. I think I found out what I did wrong. You see all along I thought the timing mark for the crankshaft was to the passenger side (where there is a painted dot on the oil pump cover at about the 9 clock position). I just learned that the timing mark was actually at the 3 clock position. Unfortunately, I missed the notes on first marking the old belt before removing it! The question is: Since I have not rotated the crankshaft yet, is it too late to put the old belt and tensioner back and try to line up the pulleys again? Or am I left with the only option of trying to reestablish the timing from scratch? It is amazing how one tiny assumption can destroy two weekends...And counting!!

[TexasProton]

Note:
I just inspected my old timing belt, and I still could see the two solid and one dotted lines on it...Is there still hope for me?

[jasonm621]

Thank you all for all your tips and replies. I think I found out what I did wrong. You see all along I thought the timing mark for the crankshaft was to the passenger side (where there is a painted dot on the oil pump cover at about the 9 clock position). I just learned that the timing mark was actually at the 3 clock position. Unfortunately, I missed the notes on first marking the old belt before removing it! The question is: Since I have not rotated the crankshaft yet, is it too late to put the old belt and tensioner back and try to line up the pulleys again? Or am I left with the only option of trying to reestablish the timing from scratch? It is amazing how one tiny assumption can destroy two weekends...And counting!!
If i remember correctly I lined the notch on the crankshaft with the green dot on the passenger side of the engine which was the opposite of what the manual said. It gave me a scare when i did mine but everything worked out! Stand by: Picture to come...

[jasonm621]

If i remember correctly I lined the notch on the crankshaft with the green dot on the passenger side of the engine which was the opposite of what the manual said. It gave me a scare when i did mine but everything worked out! Stand by: Picture to come...
Ok here is the scoop! There is a notch on the camshaft timing pulley. That notch is at the 9 o' clock and should line up to a green dot. There is also a little tick on the opposite side of that notch which should be painted with the same green paint (It may be hardly visible, very little paint) That tick is what lines up with the line on the engine at the 3 o' clock position. Picture attached. Hope it answers some questions...

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC02392.JPG
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC02394.JPGhttp://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC02387.JPG

[Lfen]

Same here, the Notch on the green dot (passenger side) and line to line on drivers side, exactly as these pics but opposite manual, but worked for me. If you try lining it up the way the manual shows it won't work, found at the hard way

[TexasProton]

You guys are the best...Man, I would've never figured all of this out on my own. The question remains...Do yall think it will be safe to put my old belt back (along with the idle pulley, tension pulley and tensioner...to revert things back to the original pre-belt removal condition) and try to line up the timing marks, or has that ship already sailed?

I really appreciate all your help

[tom4bren]

IMHO, that ship has already sailed.

Get the crank aligned properly & see where your cams are set at. If it's off a tooth, then you should adjust accordingly.

Like it was already stated, it is a non-interference engine so you won't damage your valves by turning the engine with the new belt installed.

[jasonm621]

You guys are the best...Man, I would've never figured all of this out on my own. The question remains...Do yall think it will be safe to put my old belt back (along with the idle pulley, tension pulley and tensioner...to revert things back to the original pre-belt removal condition) and try to line up the timing marks, or has that ship already sailed?

I really appreciate all your help
As tom4bren said that ship has already sailed. I dont think you'll be getting any information by putting the belt and pulleys back on. In fact it may just make you more confused. :confused:
What I would do is: Align the crankshaft pulley as shown above and follow the links and videos as if your timing is lost. The belt didn't break while the engine is running but your timing is technically just as lost as if it had... Im guessing following the instructions and getting the camshaft pulleys to "spring" to the correct position will be about a 30 min. investment of your time. To put your pulleys back on only to take them off will probably take twice that and your not guaranteed you'll receive any information by doing it, so I wouldn't bother...
If you need pictures of where my camshafts sprung to to confirm your position is correct just say the word and I'll load them up!:yesy:
We'll get that engine purring again!

[TexasProton]

Thank you both for the great info, and I totally agree. please go ahead and load the pictures...The more info I have the better I'll feel about it. So This step will require removing the head covers in order to make sure the cam pulleys are at the correct marks? I'll read all the info and will post a summery of what I'll be doing before I do it...Just to make sure I do it right!

Many thanks

[tom4bren]

No need to pull the valve covers. The marks we're talking about are the one's located on the belt pulleys (the one's you were trying to get aligned to start with). I don't thing there is anything under the valve covers that is going to help you with the alignment.

[jasonm621]

Do not quote me but if i remember correctly there is only one spot where the camshafts spring to the reference marks. The passenger side reference mark and timing mark are the same and didnt need to be moved once set, but the drivers side needed to be rotated clockwise (looking at the front of the engine) another 90 degrees to get to the timing mark after being sprung to the reference mark.
When I get home tonight i'll load those pics and watch the videos to confirm what im saying is valid... remember I never lost timing on my engine so i wasnt spinning the cam shafts around after the belt was removed. I just remember the drivers side cam shaft snapping counter clockwise 90 degrees once the tensioner was removed...

[jasonm621]

No need to pull the valve covers. The marks we're talking about are the one's located on the belt pulleys (the one's you were trying to get aligned to start with). I don't thing there is anything under the valve covers that is going to help you with the alignment.
I remember reading about dots on the camshaft gears lining up under the valve cover but like i said before i think each of the camshafts spring into only one position. So im pretty sure removing the valve cover is NOT necessary...

[tom4bren]

I still have the valve covers off on Boy's Ebony. Lemme know if you need me to take some pix.

[Lfen]

Definitely do not need to take your valve covers off. The line up marks are on the end of the head not the top. They are right above the camshaft gear. Once you start you will c its not that difficult. Like stated above, line crank pulley up first then camshafts according to the instructions

[PK]

Hmmmm - I am not so sure the ship has sailed yet.

If you are 100% positive that the crankshaft hasn't moved, and neither of the camshafts moved when the belt released, then there still is hope.
Remember we are talking about a toothed belt here, so if you very carefully turn the crankshaft XXnumber of teeth to line up the marks, and then turn each camshaft the same XX number of teeth, you still should be correct.
If you go this route I would remove all the spark plugs so that you are not fighting compression as you turn the crankshaft. You will still be fighting the valve springs as you turn the camshafts, but that is easier.
I know that I wrote down the number of teeth on the belt to go crank mark - left cam mark - right cam mark, but I threw it away when I was finished.
Perhaps someone more diligent than me still has that info??

PK

[TexasProton]

Thanks a lot for the tip PK. I can definitely try it, and if I still can't line up the marks, then reestablishing timing will be the way to go (I am thinking that might be the most safe thing to do...reestablish timing)

So if we go this route...Here is what I think you guys are saying:


1- Turn the crankshaft sprocket until the timing mark matches the timing mark on the engine at the 3 O'clock position ( I am matching the line marked with the green dot on the sprocket)
2- Turn the Right hand side cam clockwise until it springs to the 12 O'clock position on its own
3- Turn the left hand side (driver side) cam until the cam pulley springs out to the 9 O'clock position, then turn it 90 degrees more to line up the timing mark with that one on the engine
4- Install the new timing belt by lining up all three marks (line up the dotted line with the notch on the crankshaft sprocket at the 9 O'clock position

Does that sound right? am I missing anything?

[jasonm621]

When you turn the drivers side crankshaft the additional 90 degrees it wont stay there it will just want to spring back to the reference mark. Binder clip the belt on the drivers side cam pulley first with the timing mark on the belt matching the green line on the pulley. This is where another person helps a ton: Have the other person turn the camshaft the 90 degrees to the timing mark and HOLD it there until all 3 pulleys have their belt on! Wrap the belt on the crank shaft pulley (As shown in the picture NOT THE MANUAL, the timing mark on the belt should line up on the notch at the 9 o'clock position, not the tick at the 3 o' clock) Binder clip the belt to the pulley as shown. Finally wrap the timing belt around the tensioner pulley and on the passenger side crankshaft (again timing line on the belt should line up with the green line on the pulley. Your friend can now let go. VERIFY 100% that ALL Timing marks on the belt are lined on the according mark on each pulley. Once verified say a quick prayer, pull the tensioner pin and start buttoning things up! Of course remove the binder clips first!
If you're confident you did the job right fill the radiator and reservoir with coolant, if not hold off until you know your engine is running. Re-draining the coolant is gonna be pain on top of redoing the timing belt AGAIN. Once buttoned up repeat prayer and turn the key. You'll know immediately if you did the job correctly. If the engine is running swimmingly and no CEL, fill up the radiator and reservoir to the max (if you hadnt already) and drive it around the block to give that belt its first stretch.
Congrats! you're back on the road again!

[TexasProton]

Thank you so much Jason, now I feel very confident I can get the job done...Beer & BBQ on me next time you good folks are passing through Austin, TX...I really appreciate it.
This Poor VX has gone through some very bad luck lately! About two months ago I was driving home when a deer just beamed down to the only spot where I would have no other option but to hit him. The darn thing hit back and caused more damage to the front of the VX than the insurance company cared to pay for. I ended up buying a VX with a blown engine jus so I could use the few pieces I needed to get her back on the road again. I got her back from the body shop two weekends ago. I was hoping I would have her running again by this past weekend, until I ran into the timing issue.
If all goes will, she should be back on the road by the end of this weekend. I will resume putting her back together this weekend and I will report back with a final update

I just can't say thank you enough for all the tips I received from all of you.

[jasonm621]

Thank you so much Jason, now I feel very confident I can get the job done...Beer & BBQ on me next time you good folks are passing through Austin, TX...I really appreciate it.
This Poor VX has gone through some very bad luck lately! About two months ago I was driving home when a deer just beamed down to the only spot where I would have no other option but to hit him. The darn thing hit back and caused more damage to the front of the VX than the insurance company cared to pay for. I ended up buying a VX with a blown engine jus so I could use the few pieces I needed to get her back on the road again. I got her back from the body shop two weekends ago. I was hoping I would have her running again by this past weekend, until I ran into the timing issue.
If all goes will, she should be back on the road by the end of this weekend. I will resume putting her back together this weekend and I will report back with a final update


I just can't say thank you enough for all the tips I received from all of you.

I'll certainly take you up on BBQ and a beer! Same goes if your in the denver area! Making pals! Thats what the forum is for! Sorry to hear about the dear incident. I have had SEVERAL close calls on the roads of CO & KS! unfortunately every time ive been hunting not a deer, elk or pronghorn in sight!
So I thought I had better pictures where the camshafts spring to. Enjoy these pics. Looks like the timing mark on both pulleys point straight up when the belt is off... Hope this helps somewhat:


http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC02385.JPGhttp://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC02389.JPGhttp://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/GOPR2470.JPG

[PK]

Thanks a lot for the tip PK. I can definitely try it, and if I still can't line up the marks, then reestablishing timing will be the way to go (I am thinking that might be the most safe thing to do...reestablish timing)

So if we go this route...Here is what I think you guys are saying:


1- Turn the crankshaft sprocket until the timing mark matches the timing mark on the engine at the 3 O'clock position ( I am matching the line marked with the green dot on the sprocket)
2- Turn the Right hand side cam clockwise until it springs to the 12 O'clock position on its own
3- Turn the left hand side (driver side) cam until the cam pulley springs out to the 9 O'clock position, then turn it 90 degrees more to line up the timing mark with that one on the engine
4- Install the new timing belt by lining up all three marks (line up the dotted line with the notch on the crankshaft sprocket at the 9 O'clock position

Does that sound right? am I missing anything?

You need to count the teeth you move the crank pully, and then move the other pullies the same number of teeth, otherwise it will be out.

You still need someone on here to provide the belt tooth count between the crankshaft timing mark - left cam timing mark - right cam timing mark.
If you don't have the tooth count there is no way to allow for the number of teeth taken up by the tensioner deflection. It is not a straight line from the crank pulley to the left cam pulley.

PK

[Lfen]

Yes TexasProton, you have it! Just remember though that the 12 O'clock position you are referring to is in reference to the head itself (the actual marks on the heads). So if you are standing in front of the engine looking at the marks, the passenger side would be at 10' O clock and drivers at 2. It's all the same thing as long as you understand that 12 O' clock is in reference to the timing marks on the heads as if sitting on a bench horizontal, but on the engine installed it is 10 and 2.

[MSHardeman]

I still have the original Isuzu timing belt that I removed when I replace mine. I haven't looked at it in a while, but I seem to remember that the white lines were still visible on it if you need me to count teeth between marks.

[TexasProton]

Thanks for the info yall, I really appreciate it. Now this teeth count is a new twist!! If I have all three pulleys lined up correctly, and the marks on the belt right where they need to be, wouldn't that be enough? If not, then I would really appreciate someone forwarding that info to me. My old belt is useless since I did not count the teeth before I took it off, and off course the pulleys were not lined up either!

[MSHardeman]

When I did my timing belt the pulley's and the crank shaft gear were all lined up correctly before I took the old belt off. The marks on the belt did not line up with the marks on either the pulley's/gear or the heads/block. I'm sure that if I had turned the motor over enough by hand, then eventually everything would have lined up, but following Bart's (nfpgasmask) instructions I made sure that all of the notches on the pulley's lined up with the marks on the heads, and the notch on the crank gear lined up with the mark on the block. When I took the old belt off, the cams snapped out of alignment as expected. The marks on the new belt are to make sure that everything is lined up correctly when you put it all back together. If you align the marks on the belt with the notches in the cam pulley's and the marks on the heads, and the mark on the belt with the mark on the crank gear and the block, then when you pull the pin on the belt tensioner everything should be timed correctly and the engine should fire right up once everything is put back together.

I wasn't sure if you had a new belt with the marks on it already. If you do then you should be fine, but if you don't, counting the teeth between the marks would allow you to mark up your new belt for easier installation.

[TexasProton]

Yes, the new belt has two single lines (for the cam pulleys) and a double line for the crankshaft pulley, not a dotted line (It is a Goodyear timing belt kit I bought from RockAuto.com). I will follow all the instructions on this post and hope for the best. Hopefully some of you guys will be around on Saturday, just in case I get stuck...Yall's tips and advice have been priceless! I am sure one day, some other poor soul is going to find himself/herself in the same spot where I am now...I know this post will help them too!

Thank you

[TexasProton]

When I took the old belt off, the cams snapped out of alignment as expected. The marks on the new belt are to make sure that everything is lined up correctly when you put it all back together.

MSHardeman, I have a question on the quote above: So when you removed the old belt, the cam pulleys snapped out of alignment...As expected. The question is: did you have to line them up again when you installed the new belt, or did the tensioner compensate for the snapping action when you pulled the tensioner's pin?

[sonyshox23]

X

[MSHardeman]

If your timing isn't off to begin with, when you line up the lines on the new belt with the notches in the cams (and clamp them in place) and then line up the double line with the notch on the cam gear (and clamp it in place) everything SHOULD snap into place when you pull the pin on the tensioner.

I think I pushed on the belt near the tensioner to see if everything would line up before pulling the pin just to make sure it was all lined up right.

I think you mentioned downloading Barts write up, but if you haven't I would strongly suggest getting it and reading through it a few times to understand everything. I used Bart's write up exclusively, and read through it MANY times before I ever turned a wrench. I tend to be a visual person so the pretty pictures that Bart included were perfect to help me understand what was going on. I don't consider myself to be particularly mechanically inclined, but I can follow instructions (fairly well) so the write up was like a "Timing Belt Replacement For Dummies" for me.

Hope some of that helps. I'm happy to answer any other questions that you have, or if you want to talk it through I can pm you my phone number.

[Lfen]

No the Tensioner will not automatically align anything up when it is popped, all it does is take slack out of the belt. You MUST have everything lined up BEFORE you pull the pin...

[TexasProton]

So after another 100K when it is time to change the belt again, when the Cams spring out of position after I remove the old belt, I need to move them back individually to line up their timing marks with the timing marks on the heads before I install the new belt...Is that what you are saying Lfen? I know, this question does not apply to my current situation...I'm thinking about the next time!!

Thank you

[Triathlete]

^^^^ correct

[Lfen]

Yes, exactly

[MSHardeman]

No the Tensioner will not automatically align anything up when it is popped, all it does is take slack out of the belt. You MUST have everything lined up BEFORE you pull the pin...


So after another 100K when it is time to change the belt again, when the Cams spring out of position after I remove the old belt, I need to move them back individually to line up their timing marks with the timing marks on the heads before I install the new belt...Is that what you are saying Lfen? I know, this question does not apply to my current situation...I'm thinking about the next time!!

I would have to both agree and disagree with these statements. If you line everything up correctly BEFORE you pull the old belt the new belt, once lined up correctly, will pull the cams back into position (which I think is what Lfen said above). Let me explain:

If you follow Bart's write up and line the notches (or green marks, I can't remember which right now) on the cam pulley's up with the marks on the head, and the notch on the crank gear with the mark on the block your timing is set at that point. When you pull the old belt the cams will spring out of alignment, as they should, and everything is still right with the world as long as you don't touch anything. Don't turn the cam pulley's and definitely don't turn the crank.

When you install your new belt you MUST line up the white lines on the belt with the notches in the cam pulley's. This will, eventually, put the cams at the correct position once everything is done. With the white lines on the cam notches (and clamped in place so they don't move) the correct number of belt teeth are between the two cams. Now, when you line up the dotted line (or double white line) on the new belt with the notch in the crank gear (and clamp it in place so it doesn't move) there are the correct number of belt teeth between the cams and the crank. At this point there will be some slack in the belt, but it will probably be pretty tight between the driver side cam and the crank because you have lined everything up. You may even have to rotate the driver side cam back towards the head mark (white line, pulley notch and head mark all lined up) because the slack is taken out of the passenger side of the timing belt at the tensioner pulley. There may be a little slack in the belt between the two cam pulleys, but you may have had to rotate the passenger side cam pulley back to it's head mark (depending on which way the cam sprang when you took the old belt off). Now that everything is lined up and clamped down when you install the tensioner pulley and pull the pin on the tensioner it should snap the cams back into position (if they weren't there already).

One big caveat on all of this: if your timing was not set right before you took the old belt off, the tensioner will not magically re-time the engine for you when you pull the pin. It will only re-align everything if it was lined up correctly in the first place (whoa....deep!! :rolleyes:).

If you have any reason to suspect that your timing was FUBAR before you pulled the old belt then I would start with the "getting your timing back" write up that someone posted.

[PK]

Texasproton, I would like to confirm that if your new belt already has the marks on it, there is no need to count the teeth between pullies - just go by the marks.
BUT you do still need to count the number of teeth you move the crank pully, and then turn your cams the same number of teeth. Otherwise you might end up with the timing 180 degrees out. (The crank turns twice for every turn of the cams.)
Also, only ever turn the shafts (all 3) in the normal direction of rotation - never backwards.

PK

[TexasProton]

Thanks for the new information Yall, I really appreciate it. It is go time, and I'm already stuck...Here is what I did trying to establish timing from scratch.

1- I turned the Crankshaft sprocket until the itched marking line on it lined up with the timing mark on the engine at 3 O'clock
2- I turned the RH Cam clockwise until the pulley sprung back to 12 O'clock (matching the timing mark on the engine
3- I turned the LH Cam clockwise until it sprung to 9 O'clock then I turned it 90 degrees until the itched timing mark on the pulley lined up with the timing mark on the engine at 12 O'clock
4- I lined up the line on the belt with timing marks on the RH pulley and clipped it
5- I lined up the line on the belt with the timing marks on the LH pulley and clipped it
6- Here is my problem: The belt is one tooth off on the crankshaft sprocket before the notch on the sprocket!!

What am I doing wrong? There is only one position where the cam pulleys would spring back to 12 and 9 O'clock...Correct?

My phone # is 512-497-7075...If anyone would like to guide me over the phone

Thanks a lot

[TexasProton]

Update: Great news...I think I got it. I rotated the LH Cam pulley a few times until it sprung back again to what I thought was the 9 O'clock position, then turned the Cam another 90 degrees until the timing mark on the pulley lined up with the 12 O'clock timing mark on the engine...Lined up the two Cam pulley lines and there it was the double line (Mine did not come with a dotted line) lined up with the notch on the crankshaft sprocket at 3 O'clock, roughly 190 degrees from the itched timing Mark on the Crankshaft sprocket. Now all the timing marks line up with the lines and the timing marks on the engine.

Does the above sound safe to move forward?

Thank you

[jasonm621]

Your off to a right srart! However, I believe the notch on the crankshaft should be pointing to the 9 o' clock position and the painted tick mark should be at the 3 o'clock per the pictures I posted. Take a few pictures and post them up. I'd like to see pictures where you're at before i feel comfortable giving the green light! Or call me and describe what you have if you aren't sure after comparing pictures... 720-404-7725

[TexasProton]

How do I load pictures to this forum?

[jasonm621]

Go to your profile and view your gallery. Once there you can upload images to your gallery. When your images are uploaded you then go to the thread you want to add your image. Go to the bottom of the page and click "go advanced" You'll have a side bar to the right with a bunch of smiley faces and a section of "my pics" click open and it should open another window where you click which picture you want to add. When you click the picture it will automatically post the image location link to your post. Click Preview post to confirm you have the right image, once it looks good click submit reply and viola. You now successfully added an image to a post...

[TexasProton]

I do not think I have permissions to add photos! Do I need to subscribe to the gallery first?

[jasonm621]

Anyone should be able to load images. Ive noticed that sometimes it doesnt work automatically when i click the image you can always copy the photo location and add it in between image brackets as shown: you image location here

[TexasProton]

Update...NOT looking good...I tried to start it, but she wouldn't go, the engine just kept on turning (not making the usual sound you usually hear when you are cranking the engine). Now, the VX has not been started in 2.5 months, so I don't know if this has something to do with it, or if I'm just doomed and have to redo everything allover again for the third time!!!

Two additional notes:
1- When I first cranked it, I saw smoke (more like fume, not smoke from something burning) coming from around the Air cleaner area
2- The battery got drained to 60% after trying to crank the engine four times

Now I have a horrible feeling that the timing might be 180 degrees off, and I hope I did not blow up the engine! I probably should've taken the valve cover off to make sure the marks on the gears lined up...too late!! I am so frustrated I could cry, then again, who am I kidding...I already did!

I still don't see where to load the pics, I don't see anything under my profile to suggest I could load anything! I've never loaded any pictures since I joined the forum. Once I am able to load the pictures you will see that the belt was lined up with all the timing marks. The notch on the crankshaft sprocket was at 9 O'clock...It was not in line with the green dot on the engine!

[Triathlete]

Sounds like backfire which would be a good indicator that the timing is definately off. I would start from scratch following method of lost timing layed out in the manual.

[Cstoops72]

I just figured out how to load pics myself.... Go to the home page and you will see a column on the left side. Home, forums, gallery, chat etc... Click on gallery. Now along the top of the screen you need to click where it says gallery links.... In the drop down menu select "my gallery". On that screen you will see the upload photo link

[TexasProton]

I must be totally BLIND...I do not see "Gallery Links" anywhere at the top of the screen!! I clicked on "Home" to go to the home page, then I clicked on "Gallery" from the column on the right...No ""Gallery Links" at the top of the screen!! I really would like to post the pictures I have, may be someone can see what I'm doing wrong!!

Billy:
I don't get how the timing got screwed up, I followed the instruction in the video and in the manual:

1- I turned the crankshaft clockwise until the itched line on the crankshaft sprocket lined up with the timing mark on the oil pump cover at 3 O'clock
2- I turned the right Cam until the pulley sprung to the 12 O'clock position on its own and lined up with timing mark on the Head at 12 O'clock
3- I turned the left Cam until it sprung to the 9 O'clock position, then I turned it clockwise another 90 degrees until it lined up perfectly with the timing mark on the Head at 12 O'clock
4- I lined up the lines on the belt
5- All timing marks on the pulleys lined up with the timing marks on the engine
6- The double line on the timing belt lined up with the notch on the Crankshaft sprocket at 9 O'clock

What could I have missed? If I take the damn thing apart again, what do I need to do different? This has become "groundhog" Weekend, The VX version, except it is the same weekend over and over again instead of the same day over and over again!!

Thanks again for all the help and Tips

[Dmitrikr]

sitting for two month? is that enough to drain oil (pressure) off valve lifters? might need long time cranking to build up oil pressure for valve lifters?

[Lfen]

I think u guessed it. Crankshaft 180 off. I did the same thing once and had the same results as you. Smoke. Rotated crank 180 and fired up.

[PK]

Timing is 180 degrees off.

I guess you didn't count the number of teeth you moved the crankshaft and then move the cams the same number??

Dmitrikr - no hydraulic valve lifters in our engines. There are DOHC (direct overhead cam).

PK

[TexasProton]

PK, I followed the procedure for "When timing is lost", that procedure does not mention anything about counting teeth. I just lined up everything according to the video, but somehow I didn't get it right. I thought there was only one position for the right Cam to spring back to 12 O'clock, and only one position for the left Cam to spring back to 9 O'clock after you first line up the timing mark itched on the crankshaft sprocket...Is that false?

Lfen, you said you had the same situation, how did you exactly correct the issue...If I turn the Crankshaft 180 degrees, the itched timing mark on the Crankshaft sprocket will end up at 9 O'clock!! and the notch will end up lined up with the timing mark at 3 O'clock!!

Thankfully, I took tomorrow off so I wanted to make sure this nightmare was over!

Thank you all for your help

[TexasProton]

PK, I followed the procedure for "When timing is lost", that procedure does not mention anything about counting teeth. I just lined up everything according to the video, but somehow I didn't get it right. I thought there was only one position for the right Cam to spring back to 12 O'clock, and only one position for the left Cam to spring back to 9 O'clock after you first line up the timing mark itched on the crankshaft sprocket...Is that false?

Lfen, you said you had the same situation, how did you exactly correct the issue...If I turn the Crankshaft 180 degrees, the itched timing mark on the Crankshaft sprocket will end up at 9 O'clock!! and the notch will end up lined up with the timing mark at 3 O'clock!!

Thankfully, I took tomorrow off so I wanted to make sure this nightmare was over!

Note:
I definitely do not have permissions to load pictures, I'll be glad to email these pictures to someone who has access so they can load them

Thank you all for your help

[Lfen]

What happened in my case was I changed the front oil seal, so when I removed the dampner and gear I lost timing. I was following the instructions to the link that I sent you, but also referring to the isuzu manual for confirmation. When it came to the crankshaft timing marks I noticed a discrepancy between the two. They were opposite. So I went with the manual. When I turned it over, the engine did exactly as you described. I then lined it up exactly as the link with the pics that I sent you, meaning 180 degrees turned forward. So the green dot on the gear lined up with the mark on the drivers side and the little halfmoon cutout lined up on the passenger side dot. Exactly as the pics in the link. It Started right up.

But reading your post it sounds like your crankshaft may be right.

So you must have one of the cams off. So starting on the right camshaft (passenger side). Rotate it clockwise and let it spring back until the pulley lines up with timing mark on the head (10 o'clock position) this took about 6-7 turns to spring back for me till marks lined up and stayed lined up on its own. (No tension)

On the Left (Drivers side) all I had to do was rotate it 90 degrees to the timing mark at the 2 o'clock position, but this cam had to be held in place with a strap or by someone else while I installed the belt. Double checked all the marks before popping tensioner and was good to go.

So only one Cam will spring into place and stay lined up, the RIGHT. While the LEFT has to be held in place!

So not sure by reading your post, but if you turned your Left cam until it sprung to the 2 o'clock position and stayed lined up on its own then that would be wrong. The mark on the sprocket should be around the 12 o'clock position before you rotate it and after you rotate it to the 2 o'clock position it will have tension on it.

[Cobrajet]

Just a quick note... Even if the crank is correctly lined up, and the cams are correctly lined up, isn't there a possibility that the crank is actually on the wrong phase in relation to the cams. (360 degrees out? compression stroke versus exhaust stroke)

[TexasProton]

Thanks for your reply Lfen. Two notes based on your reply above:

1- When the left Cam sprung to 9 O'clock (I am using the 12 O'clock reference as in the manual) and after I turned it 90 degrees to line up with the timing mark on the head, it stayed on the mark without me having to hold on to it...I noticed the same thing in the video, so I did not make too much of that

2- The Notch (Halfmoon cutout) on the Crankshaft sprocket never lined up with the green dot on the driver side even though the itched timing mark on the Crankshaft sprocket was perfectly lined up with the timing mark on the oil pump cover at 3 O'clock

I wish I could load the damn pictures...I have no idea what I need to do in order to have permission to load pictures! CStoops sent me a screen shot of his screen, and it was definitely not what I see on my screen, the "Gallery Link", does not exist for me

Thanks for your reply.

[TexasProton]

Good question Gregg, I wondered about that myself, but all the instructions said, was to line up the Crankshaft at 3 O'clock, then line up the Cams. The instructions never mentioned how many times to rotate the Crankshaft. So it seems there is a missing step!! Now I have no idea, how to be sure about anything I am doing!!

The timing belt change was supposed to be the easiest thing about the rest of the big job of putting the VX back together after the deer did its damage, now it is a pure ongoing nightmare!!

I have got to figure this out soon, we are down to one running vehicle, and that one needs some repairs pretty soon.

[Lfen]

I edited my post to help answer your question, please reread bottom portion. But if you sprung both camshafts to the timing marks and they both stayed on There own and you put belt on, that would be wrong

As far as pictures: Go to the top of this page. Click gallery. Then at the top of that page go to gallery links, click. Look for upload photo. Upload photos to your gallery. Then go in your gallery find pic, click copy then go to post and paste

[TexasProton]

Just a thought based on Lfen & Gregg's comments: If I line up all the marks again, remove the belt , rotate the Crankshaft one full revulsion...Would that give me the 180 degree adjustment I need, or it too late for that too. if it is, how can I make sure the Crankshaft is in the right cycle position...Whatever that might be. Is that where the number one piston needs to be at the top, or is it the # 2 piston since the timing is lost?

Thank you

[TexasProton]

Thanks Lfen...Regarding the Gallery, here is everything on the menu bar...No "Gallery Link" menu!!

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[Lfen]

Don't know why you don't have it. At the very top of this page I have a gallery tab right after the home tab....

[TexasProton]

Ok guys, my head is about to blow up here!! Here is what's going on NOW:

1- I removed the timing belt
2- I removed the #2 spark plug (Driver side closest to the front of the engine on even bank)
3- I inserted a ratchet extension bar in the spark plug hole and let it rest on the top of the piston
4- I rotated the engine manually and watched the extension bar go up and down the spark plug hole
5- The only time the #2 cylinder is at TDC (Top-Dead-Center) is when the "Halfmoon cutout" on the crankshaft sprocket lined up perfectly with the timing mark on the oil pan cover at 3 O'clock.
6- The itched line with green dot on the crankshaft sprocket always lined up with the timing mark on the oil pan cover at BDC (Bottom-Dead-Center)

What the Hell is going on?? What am I missing? Which one is the timing mark, the halfmoon cutout, or the itched line with the green dot on the outer service of the Crankshaft sprocket. I really am not that dumb, I am just totally confused at this point!!! Too much contradiction!!!

I am not going to put that timing cover back on, until I am 100% sure that it will be another 100K before I have to go through this again!!

Thank you for all your help

[TexasProton]

Here is where things get totally confusing for me, but before I go on, let me make sure we are all meaning the same thing when we say the same thing:

1- Engine Timing Marks= The two hash marks on the engine heads at 10Am & 2PM. (or at 12 O'clock if you are using the terminology in the shop manual) and the hash mark on the oil pump cover across from the Crankshaft sprocket at 3 O'clock
2- Pulleys Timing Marks: The three hash marks itched on the two Cam Pulleys and the Crankshaft sprocket and have a dot of green paint to make them stand out.
3- TDC Notch = Halfmoon cutout on the Crankshaft Sprocket

Now that we have a "terminology Base", here is where things get fuzzy for me! I watched that video on you Tube at least 20 times (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjhNOVl1Tcc&list=PL664107142993A76C&index=2)

1- He first says to make sure the Crankshaft sprocket is set to TDC, that means the TDC Notch is aligned with the Engine Timing mark at 3 O'clock

2- He said to align the two Cam pulleys while Crankshaft sprocket is in the TDC position

3- Here is where it gets Fuzzy...He said to align the dotted line on the timing belt so it would align with the TDC notch at 180 degrees from the TDC position...I thought the Crankshaft sprocket was not to be rotated after the CAM pulleys were aligned as in step 2

SO, is this the right way? Align the CAM pulleys with #2 piston at TDC, install the belt on the CAM pulleys, then rotate the Crankshaft sprocket 180 degrees without moving the two CAM pulleys
until the TDC notch is 180 degrees from the TDC position (which puts it at 9 O'clock) then align the dotted line on the belt with the TDC notch at the 9 O'clock.

Is that correct? Have I lost my mind? Everyone has been saying not to move the Crankshaft sprocket after you set he CAM Pulleys, but the TDC Notch can't be at TDC and at 9 O'clock at the same time...Houston...We have a big problem!!

[jasonm621]

All I can tell you is that when I did mine (Post #19 on this thread) the timing marks on the belt fell on these 3 positions: The green dot on both of the camshaft pulleys at the 10 & 2 o' clock position as you mentioned. And the 3rd line fell on the half moon cutout on the crankshaft sprocket. I think as long as you have set your camshafts in the correct position (as it sounds like you have) and the lines on the belt are on the positions as mentioned. Then im %97 sure you should be good to go. If im wrong then you use the other mark on the crankshaft pulley. Really you have a %50 chance of using the right mark on the crankshaft. But from reading the past posts it seems like im not the only one who used the half moon cutout to line the timing belt mark.

Same here, the Notch on the green dot (passenger side) and line to line on drivers side, exactly as these pics but opposite manual, but worked for me. If you try lining it up the way the manual shows it won't work, found at the hard way

[TexasProton]

I think the next step I need to do is take the head covers off and see if the marks on the gears line up per the second grainy video...I am just getting tired of guessing wrong!

I plan on trying to crank the engine with the timing cover off, and without putting back the Crankshaft pulley and the 24mm nut. I'm also going to loop the transmission hose between the two transmission lines, so the oil won't squirt everywhere when I crank the engine. I'm only going to do so to see if it will start, so if it starts, it will be for a few seconds...Does anyone see a problem with this approach?

I'm just sick to my core of taking things apart and putting them back together, then taking them apart again

Note:
I need the site moderator to look into why I am unable to load pictures...The "Gallery Links" menu NEVER shows up for me when I click on the "Gallery" menu according to the instructions

[jasonm621]

If you want to be sure i don't see a problem with taking the valve cover off to confirm the dots on the idler gear and timing gears line up. However if you are going to crank the engine you need to hook up the intake parts first and any other sensors you may have unplugged. So make sure that anything that has a plug is plugged in, otherwise your engine probably wont even think about running and if it does you'll probably get CEL's up the wazoo. I dont know what dash lights youll get if you dont have the accessory belt on: you'll probably get a CEL or idle issues if the power steering pump doesnt have any pressure. Same goes with the alternator not being hooked up.
Honestly if you insist on cranking the engine and it does run, i wouldnt run your water pump dry for more than 30 seconds.
If you are really questioning your judgement id say that taking off your valve cover would answer more questions than turning the engine over, and it will take less time...

[TexasProton]

Thanks Jason, I guess the part I am not clear on is whether you adjust the Cams to their prospective timing hash marks while the #2 cylinder is at TDC, then you turn the Crankshaft 180 degrees to line up the belt at the TDC notch at 9 O'clock and the timing mark at 3 O'clock. The last time I did it, I started with the timing hash mark on the Crankshaft aligned with the timing mark on the oil pump cover a 3 O'clock, and the TDC notch already at the 9 O' Clock, but that did not work!

Last night, I moved the #2 cylinder to TDC, aligned the Cams, moved the Crankshaft 180 degrees so the TDC notch was at the 9 O'clock position, then aligned all the belt marks with their prospective marks the Cam pulleys and Crankshaft sprocket. I have not cranked the engine, because I have ZERO confidence in anything I am doing now, because I am not doing it from a position of knowledge...I'm just guessing!!)

When I turned the LH CAM, it sprung to 9 O'clock position on its own. I then turned it another 90 degrees to align it with the Timing hash mark on the Head, but it stayed there without me having to keep a ratchet on it...I was told that should not happen, and it should try to spring back!!! It didn't...So where does that leave me? I saw the same thing in that grainy video:
http://www.vehicross.info/misc/timing_belt/timing2.wmv

I don't know if I am just making this simple process more complicated than it has to be, or maybe this simple process is not that simple...

[jasonm621]

Once you turn the drivers side camshaft that additional 90 degrees to the timing mark the camshaft will stay there, However it doesn't take much force for it to spring back. Like I sad before it sounds like your camshaft pulleys are in the correct position but the only thing that is questionable is what mark do you use on the crankshaft? Luckly you have two things going for you: 1. Its a non-interference engine, so you wont bend valves if you crank the engine over. 2. You have a 50% chance of getting it done right if you just flip a coin and pick a mark to line your belt on.
Pick a mark to put your belt on and take 20 minutes to take the valve cover off. confirm that the dots on the idler gear and cam gear are aligned. Slowly turn the engine while you look down the spark plug hole and confirm that the valves are moving accordingly for all 4 strokes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGj8OneMjek
It should be pretty obvious if something isnt looking right ie. if the intake valve is open and the piston is moving up then you know to use the other mark on the crankshaft pulley. Once you confirm youre on the right mark button the engine up fill with coolant and turn it over!

[TexasProton]

Thanks Jason, that's exactly what I'll do tomorrow evening after I get off work. By the way, I followed the instructions that said to turn the Crankshaft so the TDC notch is at 3 O'clock, then Turned the crankshaft two full turns after I installed the belt, but the timing marks on the Cam did not align back, which tells us the timing is still incorrect.

So we all will find out tomorrow what the real deal is.

Note: I took spark plug # 1 off, and it was socked with engine oil all the way to the top of its threads...that concerned me a lot, I hope I didn't cause another problem!

[Lfen]

TexasProton I believe that you have everything correct except for your
left Cam(driver side ). When you state that you had it sprung to the 9 o'clock position before rotating it to the timing mark, is this in relation to the timing mark on the head or a actual clock?
When the manual states to rotate the camshaft until it springs to the 9 o'clock position it is in reference to the timing mark on the head which means at the 11 O'CLOCK position on a clock. This is where mine was at. Then when you you rotate it again to line it up to the actual timing mark on the head, it will not spring back, requiring you to hold it in place while the belt is installed. This is exactly how I did mine.

Also when you go to fire it up you don't need to crank it over for very long you will know right away of its right. It should fire right up, if not then you are off. Thinking that's why your plug was fouled

Just a note: When I timed my cams this way it started at BDC it would not start at TDC

[TexasProton]

Thanks for your reply Fen. All my references to the clock are based on the book reference, that the mark on the head is at 12 O'clock, not the actual clock. When you rotate the LH Cam, there is one more spot passed the 9 O'clock (per the book clock reference) and before the timing hash mark on the Head. This must be what you are talking about...Is that correct? Once I use that reference, then my proof is if I turn the Crankshaft two full turns, then all the timing marks should line up perfectly every two turns. This will put the TDC notch at 9 O'clock and the timing hash mark at 3 O'clock at the Crankshaft sprocket...does that sound correct?

Thanks again

[Lfen]

Ok here you go I found the Isuzu Technial Service Bulletin for this Procedure (IB00S005) and it verifies exactly what I have been trying to Say. Please read very carefully. Lots of ads here so you might find a better site. But you need to start around step 20. START on the bottom of the 7TH web page.

http://workshop-manuals.com/isuzu/rodeo_s_2wd/v6-3.2l/engine_cooling_and_exhaust/engine/timing_components/timing_belt/component_information/technical_service_bulletins/all_technical_service_bulletins_for_timing_belt/ib00-s005/feb/00/timing_belt_installation/

[Lfen]

Here it is on another site. Same thing less pages but pics arent as good.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.2carpros.com%2Fquestions%2F19 99-isuzu-rodeo-tuning&ei=EF7yUpK0H4yEogTJ2oGgBQ&usg=AFQjCNFks-8_g84KrGmIIHKBNjvxbfqtLA

[Lfen]

And If I am correctly understanding your question. The answer is Yes. But please refer to the TSB above. This is what I was trying to explain, but not very well. Sorry

[Lfen]

The bottom Pic Here is what we are talking about. The White line on the Cam Sprocket. This is where it should be after the final spring/sprung position at 9:00, then when you turn it 90 degrees more it will be lined up with with the timing mark on Left head. But you will have to hold it there because it will try to rotate counterclockwise back to the 9:00 position. I held mine in place with a long breaking bar and a rubber bungee cord attached because I was doing this by myself, no help.





http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/thumbs/TIMING.png (http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/24438)

[TexasProton]

Thank you so much for the info Fen. looking at the bottom picture, that's where the Cam sprung back to, but when I rotated 90 degrees to match the top picture, it stayed there on its own. I think the safest thing to do is to the following:

1- Remove the LH Valve cover
2- Set the Crankshaft sprocket to BDC
3- Set the RH CAM
4- Set the LH Cam and confirm that when the CAM springs back that the timing marks are aligned on the gears, then move it another 90 degrees to align it with the timing mark on the engine
5- Install the timing belt
6- Rotate the Crankshaft Sprocket 2 full turns to confirm all the timing marks are still aligned with the marks on the engine

I'll report back this evening

Thank you so much for all your help

[TexasProton]

Not to beat a dead horse here Fen, but figure # 9 under step # 21 shows the TDC notch at the 3 O'clock position (Cylinder #2 at TDC position), you said you did yours at BDC, because the above did not work for you.

I must be missing something, but I don't know what it is. I tried it both ways at TDC and at BDC with the same results. I think I agree with you about the LH Cam being the issue. I'll follow the steps in my previous reply this evening

Thanks again

[Lfen]

I was expecting you to ask me that, lol. Honestly I'm not smart enough to answer the how and why, I'm still trying to figure that one out.

But I have my suspicions.

(1) When I did mine I was following that first Link I gave you where it was done with the Dampner at BDC from the beginning, so when I popped my belt and the CamShafts sprung, they were already timed to BDC

(2) I believe that our engines can be timed from both TDC and BDC as long as the Camshafts are timed accordingly. And this is why there seems to be so much contradiction.

(3) So whatever you had your crankshaft/dampner set to when you popped the belt thats where I would start.

So the bottomline is that with the TSB above you can now know for a fact that your cams are timed right! Now its just a 50/50 shot with the Crankshaft as far as TDC or BDC.
In my case I rotated to TDC from BDC because of the manual and that Didn't work, so I rotated it back to where it was originally and success. For me and jasonm621 we started at BDC and stuck with it and it worked for us.

If you were at TDC then start there. Worst case scenario is you might have to rotate your crank 180 degrees, but you will be on the road again.

[TexasProton]

Unfortunately taking the left valve cover off is not an option, the great engineers of Isuzu put the last two screws in such an impossible spot where it is virtually impossible to get to them without removing the brake booster and the other crap on the opposite side...So I am back where I've been for the last three weeks ...Just stuck in total uncertainty!

[Cstoops72]

Have you ever set timing on any other engine? I've been following your difficulties, I'm not a cert. mechanic so I don't know how to put an explanation into word... I'm more of a hillbilly with know how. I've watched the video on you tube and read a few examples and it seems like they are giving you all the same advice as everyone on here.

[Cstoops72]

My suggestion is to follow step 32 on the following...
http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/tbelt.htm
Someone has already posted this hope everything comes together for ya

[Lfen]

Taking the valve covers off to set timing is not needed. You state that when you are at the 9 o'clock sprung position and turn it 90 degrees more to the 12 o'clock, it sprung and stayed there. The TSB implies that it could take up to 9 revolutions to find the right spot, so with our heads being 2 cams and 12 valves per head, I would continue to rotate it clockwise until it again springs to the 9 o'clock position, looking for the one time when it will not spring back to the 12 o'clock and you have to hold it there on the mark to install belt per the TSB

[TexasProton]

Thank you for your reply Cstoops72, I appreciate your reply and all the other tips I've already received. To answer your question, yes I have setup timing before, and I usually do most of the needed mechanical work on my vehicles (I have 6 of them), I am not a mechanic, but I am not new to working on cars either. The problem I'm having is that I've already used TDC & BDC but my engine is still not timed! I've read all the info and followed the instructions, but I still have no luck.

Remember, my engine lost timing, so the process is different than what Bart outlined in his great document.

I'll keep working with it, until I figure it out

I really appreciate all the tips from everyone especially Jason and Lfen...I'll report any new changes as soon as they happen

Thank you all

[TexasProton]

Taking the valve covers off to set timing is not needed. You state that when you are at the 9 o'clock sprung position and turn it 90 degrees more to the 12 o'clock, it sprung and stayed there.

Fen, I kept turning the LH Cam until it sprung back to 9 O'clock (Based on the Head O'clock concept). I then turned it 90 degrees to the 12 O'clock timing mark on the Head...It stayed at that position, it did not spring back to any position, and I did not have to hold it in place...it stayed there on its own!

I tried that procedure over the weekend with the Crankshaft sprocket in the BDC, which caused the backfiring

I tried the TDC position last night, I turned the Crankshaft two full turns, but the timing marks did not line up as they were supposed to had the timing been right

I did turn both Cams several turns passed the 12 & 9 O'clock...in other words, I did not take the first right position.

I'll try it both ways again tomorrow night, but this time, I will do at least 9 Cam revolutions per Cam to see if I an hit that magical spot on the LH Cam.

Thanks again for your reply.

[TexasProton]

Update...

1- I turned the Crankshaft sprocket so the Timing hash mark was at 3 O'clock (BDC) and aligned it with the timing hash mark on the oil pump cover

2- I turned the RH Cam (passenger side) at least 9 full turns (I watched the timing mark on the Cam pass by at least 9 times). I then rotated it again until it sprung back to 12 O'clock (using Head O'clock reference)

3- I did the same thing with the LH Cam (Driver Side), but let the Cam spring back to 9 O'clock (Head O'clock reference)
4- I turned the LH Cam an additional 90 degrees until the timing hash mark on the Cam was aligned with the timing hash mark on the Head
5- I aligned the marks on the belt with those on the pulleys and made sure nothing moved
6-I installed the tensioner and released the pin
7- I turned the Crankshaft sprocket TWO full turns...Nothing lined up...not even close

8- I repeated the same process, but this time I started the Crankshaft sprocket in the TDC position (Halfmoon cutout notch at 3 O'clock)
9- I turned the Crankshaft sprocket TWO full turns...Nothing lined up...Not even close

Note: The timing marks seem to get aligned every 1.5 Crankshaft turns

[jasonm621]

2:1 is the OVERALL COMBINED RATIO from the crankshaft to the cam drive gear!!!! I know its confusing as hell. I'll try to explain:
Crankshaft pulley to drive gear pulley ratio is 1.55:1 and the ratio to the camshaft idler gear (which is connected to the camshaft pulley on the outside of the valve cover) to the camshaft drive gear is 1.33:1(This is how it can take up to 9 rotations for the camshaft pulley to spring in the right position, 3 rotations to get to a whole number multiplied by the 3 cylinders on that half of the engine.). Mathematically this "works out" (using quotes in the video, not my quotes) to be an overall ratio of 2:1.Im no mathematician but multiplying those two ratios I get 2.0615:1 :confused:... Like I said, Somehow it "works out"!! Go to this link: http://vehicross.info/modules.php?name=Content&file=viewarticle&id=37 read the info again and watch the video: http://www.vehicross.info/misc/timing_belt/timing2.wmv less than a minute in the video it explains this...
I think you have everything good to go, I think you just need to button things up and turn the key on this...

[TexasProton]

Thank you Jason, I will post the results tomorrow.

[TexasProton]

Update...And then GOD (or maybe it was Jason!) said let there be Engine Timing...She started and ran better than ever!!

Jason you were 100% correct about the 1.5 turns being sufficient...So here is the summery of the last thing that I did that reestablished timing:

1- With the timing belt removed, I turned the Crankshaft sprocket to the TDC position (The halfmoon cutout on the crankshaft sprocket was at 3 O'clock matching with the timing hatch mark on the oil pump cover

2- I turned the RH Cam (Passenger side) at least 9 times (it really was not necessary, but I wanted to be sure), then I turned it more until the Cam pulley sprung back to 12 O'clock (using the Timing reference mark on the Head...10 O'clock using a real O' clock), on its own.

3- I turned the LH Cam (driver side) at least 9 times (it really was not necessary, but I wanted to be sure), Then I turned it more until it sprung back to 9 O'clock on its own (using the Timing reference mark on the Head), on its own, then I turned it 90 degrees clockwise until the timing mark on the Cam pulley as aligned with the timing mark on the engine at 12 O'clock (using the Timing reference mark on the Head...2 O'clock using a real O' clock). I let go of the ratchet and the Cam stayed in the same spot...It did not try to spring

4- I aligned the two lines on the belt with the timing mark on the Cam Pulleys and made sure they were still aligned with the timing marks on the engine

5- I aligned the double line (my belt had a double line instead of a dotted line) with the timing mark (NOT the TDC notch) that has a green dot of paint on the sprocket itself at roughly 9 O'clock 180 degree opposite of the TDC notch

6- I took a final look at all the marks and made sure everything was still aligned

7- I installed the tensioner, and checked all my marks again
8- I pulled the tensioner pin and made sure everything was still aligned
9- I turned the Crankshaft 1.5 turns...NOT 2 TURNS as the two videos and the manual say...THANK YOU JASON for pointing that out. All timing marks on the two Cams and the Sprocket aligned perfectly every 1.5 turns...Note: The lines on the belt no longer lined up with anything...Which is the way it is supposed to be. The marks on the belt are only needed when you install the belt and before you turn the Crankshaft

10- I put the engine back together, all the pulleys, accessory belt radiator fan...etc. I did not put coolant in the radiator at this point. I wanted to make sure the engine was going to start... I didn't want to end up having to drain the coolant again in case the engine wouldn't start

11-I cranked the engine...It started for 2 seconds, then it immediately died. I tried again, and it started sounding like it was not going to start (but it did not backfire...It sounded the same as it did when it backfired last weekend...I was devastated. I got out of the VX and got down to my knees...You don't want to know what I said, or what emotions went through my soul!!

12- I then remembered one of the gentlemen who posted one of the replies, suggesting the hard start could be due to the fact that the engine had not been started in 2.5 months at the time when he posted his reply

13- I got back in the VX and turned the engine while pumping the gas peddle...And there she came roaring back...I sure missed that sweet sound of a well tuned engine!!

14 - I only let it run for no more than 10 seconds, then shut off, I filled up the radiator, cranked it back, and she started immediately and kept it running for about 10 minutes

15- I will be referring to this post 10 100K from now!

Guys, THANKS a MILLION to every single of you who came to my rescue, especially Jason and Lfen, and top those who showed support by following the this post. I would've NEVER figured it out without all the input you good folks provided me with.

Jason, I can't thank you enough for your last post, if it had not been for that last piece of info, I'd still be turning the Crankshaft trying to align everything after two turns.

The official documentation is definitely not totally accurate and very confusing; it was like the thing women say about "No means No, unless it means Yes".

In the end, I am very thankful for the experience and for getting to know a few great fellow VXers. I now feel comfortable that if my timing belt breaks I can establish engine timing with 100% confidence...The FIRST TRY.

The final advice I offer to anyone who is planning on changing their timing belt is:
1- Take your time and be 100 % sure your timing marks are aligned before you remove the old belt.
2- Redraw the two lines and the dotted line before you remove the belt. This way you can compare the old belt to the new one, and if for some reason you need to put the old belt back to double check your timing marks
3- A couple of gentlemen suggested to count the number of belt teeth between all the timing marks on the three pulleys...I did not do so, because it was too late...My belt was already removed when I realized that could've helped.

I hope this post helps someone else avoid having to go through the night mare I went through!

THANKS and GOD BLESS ALL of YOU

[Lfen]

Awesome, man!

[Triathlete]

Glad you finally got it all sorted out.

[TexasProton]

Thank you so much "Triathlete", you have helped me greatly with your tips, I really appreciate it

[PK]

Pleased to see you sorted it out Ollie.

Well done Jason as well.

PK

[jasonm621]

Glad to hear you're on the road again! I know and completely understand the stress you were feeling! I remember how stressed i was when I had a intake manifold gasket crack on me and my engine was idling just below 3K. Long story short it took me 3 days to take the top of the engine off and put it back together, one step including taking a hack saw to the EGR tube! Another thing that wasn't on my side is that my VX is my one and only car... Like i said i know the feeling. Excellent job getting yours running again! Glad we all could help!

[TexasProton]

I just can't say THANK YOU enough to you and the rest of the guys...Thank you for not giving up on me and tell me to take to a mechanic shop!