HUB & race problems - sourcing issues

[JHarris1385]

Mechanic has my passenger side ball joints on but said when installing the new bearings that my hub is bad.

He said it allows the race for the bearings to move too much/is loose.

Have you heard of this before? Now he cant source another hub and does not want to burn new bearings in this race.

[JHarris1385]

Any info?

[JHarris1385]

He thinks the hub has slowly expanded from heat, the race spins freely where the bearing sits in it.

Do I need a new hub?

[eternal21]

Hmmmmmmmm....pretty sure we use the same hub as the same year Trooper 4x4s. I've never heard of what he's speaking of, TBHWY, but you have all that stuff apart, I'd go for the replacement, depending on the price (<$250).

As a friend of mine used to say, "Do it right, cry once."

[MSHardeman]

He thinks the hub has slowly expanded from heat, the race spins freely where the bearing sits in it.

Do I need a new hub?

Say what!? I've repacked my front wheel bearings three times now and I thought that the race was part of the hub and not a separate pressed in piece. Huh, learn something new every day.

How would the race have separated from the hub assembly? If your mechanic thinks that the hub expanded due to excessive heat then you must have had a stuck brake caliper or some dry bearings that were creating the heat. The hub is a big chunk of metal so it must have been an amazing amount of heat.

I'm with eternal. I would think that the VX would use the same hub as a four wheel drive Trooper but I don't know for sure.

[JHarris1385]

I should have taken a pic. This is new to me.

The thin band of metal that they are putting around the outer bearing on the hub attached to the rotor. Looks like a large metal ring that supposedly sits first and the bearing inside?

Is this wrong and he is not sure what he is doing?

[MSHardeman]

I'm totally confused now. :_huh: I have some pictures of my hub from when I re-packed my bearings, but apparently I can't access my pictures from my work computer. I'll have to get on my computer at home tonight and post up some pictures so we can have a visual reference.

[MSHardeman]

Do any of the pictures in this thread help?

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=11324&highlight=repack+bearings

These are the same, basic, pictures that I have. I actually followed Kenny's write-up when I re-packed my bearings.

EDIT: Huh, I just re-read Kenny's write up and he DOES mention removing the old raceways and installing new ones. I can't believe that I JUST caught that. I did NOT replace my raceways when I re-packed my bearings (any of the three times).....maybe I should have.

[JHarris1385]

So is he just not pressing my raceways in tight enough?

[MSHardeman]

I honestly don't know. Heck, I didn't even know that they came out until just a couple of hours ago. Looking at Kenny's pictures, though, it looks like the raceways would bottom out on a lip that is machined into the hub so if your mechanic has put them in and they are bottomed out and the still spin around then maybe your hubs are shot. Never heard of this happening to anyone before.

Shot in the dark, but is he sure that he got the right raceways and bearings? Maybe the raceways (and bearings) are too small for the VX hubs? I just can't imagine a hub wallowing out enough to make the raceways loose. There is a lot of metal there and it would be tough to damage it because it should all be nice a snug and not have any play in it. If the hub nut wasn't tightened down properly maybe it allowed the hub to move around and get damaged, but I would think that either the bearing or the raceway would get damaged well before the hub would. Have you seen the hub? Does it look pitted or oblong like it was flopping around and getting damaged?

[JHarris1385]

It looks normal! He called me and tried to explain and I was lost as you were earlier.

Then I went there and seen it move and knew it wasnt supposed to do that....but maybe he hasnt pressed them down enough? Would they press themselves after he reassembled it?

The bearings and old race way didnt look bad either.

[MSHardeman]

Does he still have the old race ways? Are they the same size as the new race ways? Can he put the old race ways into the hubs without them rattling around? If the old ones fit without rattling then the new ones MUST be the wrong size.

Per the drawing in Kenny's write up it looks like the races would bottom out in the hub and it looks like Kenny set them in with a special tool to help hammer them into the hub nice and straight. I wouldn't count on the races settling into the hubs correctly if you just start tightening things down. If you (or your mechanic) did do that I would think you might damage the bearings as they will be trying to push the races into place and bearing all the compressive forces. The races also may not completely seat in correctly.

Since I've never replaced the races this is all just theoretical. Hopefully someone who has actually done this will chime in soon.

[PK]

I have not done the VX wheel bearings yet, but just about every car on the road uses the same principles.
For each wheel bearing there is an inner cup (comes with the rollers and cage assembled) and an outer cup.
The outer cup has to be a tight press fit into the hub. If not the hub will flog out, and you cannot get the correct preload on the wheel bearings.
It is unusual for a hub to go bad, but it can happen in extreme cases like totally stuffed bearings or a dragging brake calliper, but the old bearings would look blue from the heat before the hub would expand.

What degree of looseness is there?? Does the outer just fall in with say 1/16" clearance all round it?? or fit snug but still turn??
What quality bearings have you got?? Cheap Chinese ones have wider production tolerances, so you might have some right on the small end of the scale. Good boxed Timken bearings would be first choice, but there are also other named brands you can trust. (SKF, NGK, TOYO etc)
You can get different sized outer cups to suit the same size inner cups, so I am concerned that he might have the wrong bearings. Might even be a metric vs imperial problem. Easy way to test that is try the same bearing cup in the opposite hub. You would not have 2 hubs gone, so if the bearing fits one and not the other it would give some confidence that the hub is shot.

If the hub is worn there are a few options -
1. New or second hand hub would be the best.
2. Bearing companies do make thin spacers to allow a hub to be machined and the spacer press fitted, then the bearing press fitted. A machinist would have to carefully measure up the hub to determine if there is enough meat there for this process.
3. The hub could be built up by weld material in the bearing seat area, and then the hub machined back to standard. This requires both a welder and a machinist that know what they are doing.

Personally, I hope you just have a dodo mechanic that doesn't realise he has the wrong bearings, but this has to be made safe, so no short cuts.

Good luck

PK

[Triathlete]

The OEM bearings are SFK. And I agree with what PK said above.

[JHarris1385]

Thanks for all your advice/info.

My first question to him was "you pressed them right?" Kinda pissed him off. Iv never used this guy before, big shop, all his, and it directly across the street from work. So it was a huge convenience thing.

- I have not verified what brand and part number he ordered but I was supplied with( Timken NP654538 )and gave those to him in a box. I was going to do this repair myself so I bought everything but he didnt care for putting on parts I supplied so he did buy some bearings. Im not 100% if it was my bearings that were the problem or his. Right now he left the old ones in as is until he could source hubs. He really thought I needed some, of course, cause it is also more $$ to him.

- I saw the play, decent snug but with play, not ridiculously easy to turn with your finger but pivoted like a teeter totter more so.

- He did mention that locktite makes a product that could help seat it.

[Ldub]

I've had this happen before John...EXACTLY the same scenario...:_wrench:.:upsetgray

I went to the salvage yard with my trusty tool box & scored a used hub from a Trooper.

If you clean all the grease outta the hub, you can see indents around the back side of the race, where a punch can be employed with a striking instrument, to get the old one out. The new one doesn't need to be pressed in, just tapped in, gradually working around the edge with a copper or brass mallet.

Don't forget the exciter ring on the back side...;)

[JHarris1385]

Do you know what caused your expanding?

Iv easily put $1,000 into the VX in repairs in the last 30 days.

When i search for used hubs I see this "NOT THE LOCKING 4X4 HUB"

[Ldub]

Same thing that caused yours...I let the bearings go too long between re-packing. The bearing at that point gets hot enough to expand the hub, then when it cools, with the weight of the vehicle on it (parked overnight) it can't contract evenly, or at all. Repeat this process over time, & the whole hub get's FUBAR'd.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/1-HuB.PNG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/1A-Hub1.PNG

[JHarris1385]

Are those new prices?

Should I be looking for one without the locking hub lingo?

Thank you.

[Ldub]

Those are clearly salvage yards John...IIRC, locking hubs are just an addition to the standard hub.

You're gonna have to do your own legwork from here on...pick up the phone, cross reference part numbers, whatever it takes...:yesgray:

At this point, I've done about all I can do from this end. I guess I could go pull one & mail it to ya, but I ain't that nice of a fellow.

You obviously are able to use the net...so...:_thinking

Indiana Salvage Yards (http://auto-salvage-yards.com/directory/indiana.htm)

JUNKYARD DOG (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.junkyarddog.com%2F&ei=w2ndU63CI--_sQSis4LIDA&usg=AFQjCNFjTD0q4ledwiMWUIeR9Q2kLclhiA&sig2=YxVH9Gu0ZnkF4-tadQRhnA)

Used Parts Central (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usedpartscentral.com%2Fsearch _indiana.htm&ei=w2ndU63CI--_sQSis4LIDA&usg=AFQjCNH5ADkrK2K0veQ7wxUeetZ2VmHykA&sig2=zBGqHt1mjg6MalYas0-akQ)

Car Part . Com (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.car-part.com%2F&ei=82rdU6LsOoa-sQSL1ICIAw&usg=AFQjCNFE7FsPmn_-ZyrI3Iai2j_P86vKCA&sig2=f2E4gSDRtybxe4TcGFKdyg)

[JHarris1385]

No, I wasnt asking for the leg work. Just making sure when I have been seraching and have come across some that specifiy and some that dont about locking. From my phone I only saw westwood auto and didnt click a link. Now I get to the computer and see salvage and recycle.

Thanks for the link, im glad someone has had the same issue and could help.

ill just go ahead and pm you my address...haha

[Ldub]

LOL...OK, since I'm a known Luddite, I have no idea of what's what with regard to what the web looks like on a phone.

I just use mine to talk to people...period!. And even then, it's as little as possible.

You know why they call me "the great communicator"?...they don't...;)

Good luck in your quest for VX wellness...:_wrench:

[reneesdesign]

I'm reliving this experience for a second time. first time was about 18 months ago. I broke down and ordered a new hub, installed a new half shaft, and new inner & outer Timken bearing/race sets. Why is this happening again?

[Marlin]

I ruined one when my CV shaft shattered into the hub assembly. I replaced it 3 yrs ago with one out of a yard Trooper, no problems. I am not sure if the 2wd vs 4wd are different though.