VX on LPG

[thedutchguy]

Hello, is anyone running his or her VX on liqified petroleum gas, propane or Butane?
Maybe a strange question but here in the netherlands gas is 1.20 euro a liter which is about $3.60 a gallon.
LPG costs 1/3 of that.
So it's an interesting option.
Currently there is a development which takes the signal from the fuell injectors and converts it to the right amount of lpg, which is then injected through special lpg injectors.
http://www.auto-lpg.com/Afbeeldingen/SGI%20system%20view.jpg
perhaps interesting for vx riders with the same problem.

check it all out at:
http://www.auto-lpg.com/introduction.htm

:confused:

[Robert]

Hi Dutchguy!

Very interesting. Let me know if you find out whether it could be installed for the VX. I would be interested too.
Did you watch the game against Germany?

I addressed a reply to you in another thread that I repeat here because I am not sure you read it
Here it is:

Hej thedutchguy,

I have lots of friends in Holland. (Amsterdam and Groningen)
Congrats for the VehiCross and welcome to the Forum. It is a great group really.
I am still hesitating to bring mine to Europe/Hungary. In HU we have about 3 but only one with EU plate.
My main headache is the registration fee that is about $9,000 that I find outrageous. Just for curiosity stake how much did you pay for the shipping (Would you recommend them?) and how much do you have to pay for the registration?
If I ship mine I will ship it through Rotterdam probably and may be we can hook up for a meet.
Anyway enjoy it, it is a great vehicle!

Robert

[thedutchguy]

hello robert,
I'm already down $ 5,500.00 on shipping and importing.
getting it on plates here will take another $ 3,000.00!

That's the price to pay for being different and fed up with all those "normal" cars.

[Joe_Black]

I don't know about LPG but I'm considering converting my IronMan to run on pure ethanol. You can make it yourself (if you have the room) for less than $.85 a gallon and the US govenment will basically pay you about $.54 a gallon to use what you make. The only modifications necessary are minor changes to the fuel system (hoses, o-rings) and injectors that will flow appx. 37% more fuel. The only performance penalty is 25% less mileage per tank.

I'm actually turning into an ethanol activist ;eekg; after the recent statement by the head-honcho from Exxon/Mobil that stated US energy independence was "a myth" and would never happen. Personally I believe we could be totally free of foreign oil if someone would step up to the plate and build an ethanol distribution network. Everything else is already proven and reliable technology. Did you know that Henry Ford developed the Model T to originally run on pure ethanol? He said it was the "fuel of the future" but the oil companies would have nothing to do with it.

Sound familiar?

[thedutchguy]

Hey Joe,(sound familliar?)
Have you read J. Rifkins book about the hydrogen economy?
That will really get your hopes up!

If you run it only on ethanol you can raise the compression considderably, won't that increase the mileage?
25% seems a lot to me.LPG gives a maximum loss of 5%.

[Joe_Black]

Haven't seen the book, but will give it a look. When I have some time this evening I'll post some ethanol links.

Your situation overseas is a little different from ours as you've been saturated with high gasoline prices for years. But the mess we're in over foreign policy and the need for oil to satisfy American consumerism is just pure mayhem. With the ability to "just say no" to ANY foreign petroleum would signal a paradigm shift in this country.

LPG is comparable to gasoline in "MPG", but it's still a petroleum/hydrocarbon product with similar emissions. Plus it's volumetric requirements for storage in the vehicle and storage pose other problems, which is why it's most often seen in full-size or industrial trucks. So the MPG comparison is more apples to oranges since it requires a completely different fuel storage and delivery system. Ethanol uses your existing tank and fuel system, it's 25% MPG hit is from a volume comparison with gasoline. Plus it's emissions are virtually nil and the waste product from production is used as animal feed or feed additive. Ethanol is about the greenest fuel you can get from raw material to production to consumption.

Since there is no distribution network for ethanol I won't convert the Dragon at this time. My work covers four counties and where I live is smack in the middle, so the converted IronMan would always be near enough to the fuel source that 230 miles per tank is perfectly acceptable. Especially since I'm filling up for only about $.31 a gallon! The conversion cost is about $1000 without scrounging anything so that would be recovered in fuel savings rather quickly, say about 30 fill-ups. The savings beyond that goes right back in my pocket. I you think about it you can imagine my excitement. ;Do;

[lenny]

hi all

i went into a gas conversion place last week and the kits now adays have sequential gas injectors im looking into getting a kit fitted

we will see

[colmhd]

:) Heu Dutchman.
I moved back to Ireland and brought the VX with me. I know what you mean about getting it plated!!
Insurance was another thing there wasn't any classification for a VX anywhere so they listed it under a Trooper. With petrol rolling out at E1.00 a litre here, I would definatley be interested in
knowing the cost of converting to lpg.

leave her easy
Colm

[thedutchguy]

Through the add on ebay posted by sacha K
I got in touch with a guy who is selling his vx with lpg.
The system is Romano with a 60 litres underfloor tank.
Did some searching and found a site:
http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/

They have coverted a Mitsubishi Shogun 3.5 V6.

Is this the same engine as our VX?

[thebear54]

It's a great idea...but would not work too well on this side of the "pond". specially here in Vermont with only 1 LPG station in the state serving car conversions(and that one is three hours away):p
Keep on Truckin'...........John

[azskyrider]

Hello Dutchguy, your fuel price is slightly cheaper than Mexico but still expensive. In Mexico they have been doing this addition for DECADES. I say addition because there is a switch that lets you switch from letting your engine run on regular gas then switch to Propane. The cost is about $350 U.S.D. I had it done on my 99 Dodge 4x4, My uncle adapted one on his 2002 Dodge 4x4, 2001 Chevy 4x4 and a 99 Ford F150.

As Joe-Black stated it takes up room on the bed of a truck. A little inconvenience for being able to use both fuels. I do know that the vehicle runs better on propane at higher altitude. We were up by the Grand Canyon last month hunting at an elevation of 8,900 feet and we got a bit more power from the engine since the regular gas mixture would have been off. Also we didn't have to worry about finding a gas station. :)

I have never noticed one done on an SUV but next month I will ask. I just don't know where one would mount it while still retaining the regular fuel tank.

Cheers,

[dutchie]

Don't you lose like a lot of HP's when you run on LPG? I know it used to be like that in the "old" days when my old man was driving his citroen cx....

[Joe_Black]

Here's some basic info on dual-fuel setups using LPG:

Its advocates say that LPG provides more energy than petrol. They are right -- LPG provides roughly eight per cent more energy per unit weight than petrol. But that doesn't mean much, unfortunately. While, theoretically, vehicle operation with LPG should be more efficient than with petrol, this happens only if you've got an engine optimised for LPG. In other words, if you've retro-fitted an LPG conversion unit to your petrol engine, you are not going to be able to get any edge. This is because of the lower density of LPG as compared to petrol and also its higher oxygen demand. The lighter density fuel displaces air in the intake manifold and, consequently, less air per cycle is induced to the cylinders. This results in decreased volumetric efficiency and loss of power, compared to the original petrol rating of the engine.

While we are on the subject, we might as well get one thing straight. Switching to LPG, legally or otherwise, may bring down your running costs. But it will most certainly also drive up your investment cost by trashing your engine. There are, of course, ways of switching from petrol to LPG without distressing your power plant. But I've not come across such technologies in India -- this being the con part of the pros-and-cons equation.

However, this absence of good technology at the workshop level need not bother you if you have a mechanical bent of mind. You could always build an engine -- or, at least, parts of it -- specifically designed to work optimally on LPG. But you need to keep certain parameters in mind.

To begin with, don't even think about a dual fuel set-up. That's the kind of system that is being used in India now -- engines that work on petrol when you run out of LPG. A dual fuel system is pure compromise. As such, it represents the worst of both worlds.

An LPG engine absolutely needs two things: a good ignition system and a good cooling system. LPG requires a very hot spark and the ignition system of your petrol engine simply won't give you one. The engine will also need a good cooling system not because it runs any hotter but because the LPG regulator/ converter uses engine coolant to provide the heat to convert liquid LPG into gas.

We have already talked about the relatively lower efficiency of petrol engines run on LPG earlier in this column. As LPG has fewer BTUs per pound than petrol and as petrol engines are designed to take in a fixed volume of fuel and air, it's pretty much inevitable that you'll be stuck with a ten per cent drop in horsepower. You can eliminate this HP loss by reconfiguring your engine innards -- increased compression ratio, a propane camshaft and so on. But you don't have to. You could, instead, exploit the fact that LPG has an octane equivalent of 110 and advance your engine timing quite a bit.

If, however, you want to go ahead and custom-build an engine designed specifically to run on LPG, do bear in mind that there are three things that are directly affected by fuel choice: compression ratio, cam timing and exhaust valves/seats.

If you're lucky, you should be able to get yourself a higher compression ratio by boring your cylinders oversize and picking up stock pistons from another engine.

As for the camshaft, it serves two separate purposes in most gasoline engines -- it gets as much fuel as possible into the cylinders and it keeps the burning fuel in the cylinders long enough for it to burn completely. There is a short period in the working of a cam during which both the valves remain open -- this is called the overlap. With both the valves open simultaneously, the exiting high-velocity exhaust gas is used to suck in fuel and air. When you are trying to identify the appropriate camshaft for an LPG engine, it might be a good idea to consider trading off high-speed horsepower (or volumetric efficiency) for complete combustion by ensuring zero overlap.

Try and get the hardest valves/seats available as the ignition temperature of LPG is higher than that of pertrol.


As you can see it's best if the engine is setup for LPG rather than compromised to run on both. But without an effective distribution system, as most fleets have, you're constrained to stay near a fueling station or undertake investing in the equipment to store and fill yourself.

I apologize for not posting the ethanol links as promised earlier. Here's a few good links:

Running on Alcohol (http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/) - Great site and also home of plans for an excellent ethanol still. This is where I got mine.

Journey to Forever (http://www.journeytoforever.org/ethanol.html) - Great site with a variety of bio-fuel info and background on ethanol with some great links as well.

National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition (http://www.e85fuel.com/) - Industry activists site.

American Coalition for Ethanol (http://www.ethanol.org/) - Another industry site, some info.

Renewable Fuels Association (http://www.ethanolrfa.org/) - Home of "Ethanol 101" and other industry info.

Governor's Ethanol Coalition (http://www.ethanol-gec.org/index.htm) - See what state governments are behind energy reform. Lots of good links.

[azskyrider]

Good reading material Joe Black,

I am not expert on this topic but some of what I read about the problems of running dual setup will cause problems I find hard to accept.


Like I said, The dual setup has been going on for decades with no hazardous events. A lot of family members, friends, employees, locals have them with no problems ranging from all types of manufacture trucks and all year ranges and on those with and without fuel injection. I as well as others have gone over 100k miles with no engine failures and the fuel is not as good as those sold in the states.

The kit is not ordered from the dealer but is an aftermarket item. It also does not replace any internal engine parts and is installed in about 5 hours.

I find it a major convenience when you travel long distances especially in locations where the nearest gas station is far away. Run the propane till it runs dry then switch over to regular gas to get you back.


Cheers,

[thedutchguy]

Cars on lpg are quite common here in europe.
Several manufaturers as volvo and fiat also make factory Bi-fuel versions.
New trend is the Flexible fuel vehicle(FFV) which runs on gas and methanol. Ford europe makes one(the Focus) and Saab.
Lpg cars are known to have mileages over 150.000 without any major problems.
Especially the Volvo 5 cil. engine is virtually unbreakable!
I just wonder if the valve seats on the standard V6 isu eng are hard enough.
I foresee no further problems rather than the space under the car to store the tank for the LPG.
I'm now able to obtain a motor kit that plugs into the original fuel injectors and calculates the amount of lpg needed from that .
This system has less than 5% loss of power compared to gas, costs $ 700,- and has the same mileage, only now at 1/3 of the cost!!!
I'm in.

[Joe_Black]

I didn't really read it as necessarily "problems" running on LPG dual-setup, just not as efficient as an engine configured specifically to run only LPG. I agree with you, this technology has been around for quite some time. Most of the citrus grove owners around here have their trucks setup for LPG, not for economy but to keep people from stealing the gasoline or diesel from them. You can always tell when you're behind one! ;pg;

[thedutchguy]

I got some pics of the romano system lpg setup of an english gentleman.He was very nice to make some shots before the new owner is picking it up.

I have posted the pics in my gallery.
As you can see the original tank has been replaced with a smaller model.