Ot: Hdtv...

[Cyrk]

Ok now that I have my new HDTV, which HD provider do I go with?

Voom
Direct TV
Dish
Comcast

Anyone have any experience with HD on theses providers??

I currently have Dish and ordered there HD 811 box, but have been reading mixed reviews about the picture quality and lockups on the systems.

Thanks!
-Dave

[Mile High EDGe]

Just an idea but you could look by product like Sony, JVC, etc and then find what the best one that fits your needs and interests. Personally I would stay away from Comcast, but thats just me, I dont like there equipment at all and you have to use it.

If you go by product then automatically the HD SAT receiver carrier works with a paticular DirectTV or DishNETWORKS.

CNET & ZDNET are good for product reviews and whats out there.

Hope that helps!

[WormGod]

Funny you mention this Cyrk, cause I got all moved in to my new place this weekend and Comcast came out for my cable install. The offer an HD package for an extra $3 a month, but only a mere 8-10 channels are broadcast in HD. I guess it's not a bad deal for $3 but they are channels I don't watch. It's like Discover HD and National Geographic. Also, the guy told me that the mandatory 2006 HD changeover was changed to 2009 now!!!! That kinda burns me up.

[Cyrk]

Worm so how do the Comcast HD channels look?

[Andrey]

I was with Dish Network for the past 3 years using their older receiver which allowed to record HDTV to D-VHS vcr. Both picture quality and DD 5.1 sound were awesome. Then Dish retiered 5000 receiver and I stopped being their subscriber. Going with Comcast is like feeding the pig. They will increase your monthly bill without any explanation several times a year. You should ask yorself several questions on what is really important to you - price, picture quality, variety, ability to timeshift, ability to archive to D-VHS tape today and then transfer in the future to Blue Ray discs ot HD-DVD format (ongoing war between the two).
Read more here http://www.avsforum.com/

[VXMAN]

Well, I have a HD Plasma and went with Adelphia cable for HD. True, I only get about 8-10 channels for now, but what a difference. I was using Direct TV, but they wanted me to pay $400 for the equipment upgrade, to go HD. New customers can get 4 tv's hooked for FREE, but not current customers! What a bunch of BULL *****. Anyhow, I then looked into Dish, but they couldn't get a good signal off my roof? Then I checked into Voom, but at the time I looked, they wanted like $750 up-front for the equipment. They do offer the most HD channels available. Just not sure how the service would be, if something went out? So, I went with Adelphia and so far, for the HD channels I do get, it great. For me, one of the Big kicker is this, if you go with Comcast, (I think just like my Adelphia) there is no service contract, unlike 1-2 years with the satilite company's. So, if you try Comcast and don't like it, just take back the equipment and cancel it! For me, getting ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, ESPN, & NESN (Red Sox games) for now, it's all I need! I'd say Try Comcast and see how you like it. Then I'd look into Voom.

[Cyrk]

Tanks for the replys... I hear on comcast the the SD (analog) channels look like poo, is that right? or do they look ok?

[VXMAN]

Well I can't speak for Comcast, but on my Plasma, almost any non-HD channel looks crappy. But, thats the nature-of-the-beast with Plasma's. So yes, on plasma's regular channels look worst than on TV's or LCD's.

But, I still wouldn't trade my Plasma for ANYTHNG! You should see this thing running an DVD, through my HD DVD player & my sounds system. The new Stars Wars trilogy rocks! I just have to keep the sound down low enough, so I don't smash the windows.
;Db;


Dave...

[ScottinMA]

For what it's worth, I'm using Comcast with HD and a Toshiba 51" rear projection (much cooler than Dave's plasma) and the HD channels are clear as can be. Analog channels are grainey looking but tolerabel for the most part. Someday, rumor has it, Dave will be investing in some very comforable seats, a popcorn machine, goldengate tap system with extra long retractable hose, and an ultra convenient portable relief station such that you may not need to get out of your seat.

[Cyrk]

I think I might try Comcast HD... they are offering 25 bucks off for 16 mo if I drop Dish for them. And I can get Locals in HD here in ATL and they also have an HD DVR for 9.95 a mo.

[ScottinMA]

Originally posted by Cyrk
they also have an HD DVR for 9.95 a mo.

That would be soooo great..you gotta do it!

[VXMAN]

Originally posted by ScottinMA
Someday, rumor has it, Dave will be investing in some very comforable seats, a popcorn machine, goldengate tap system with extra long retractable hose, and an ultra convenient portable relief station such that you may not need to get out of your seat.

Rumor, it's not a rumor, just a LONG ***** PROJECT. Yes, I'm trying to (slowly) build a 8 seat movie theater! But, for this room, I will run a HD projector with a 120" screen. I may need to sell shares in 3 available seats, to help defray the project cost! Anyone want to claim a seat? They are going to be nice and comfy! Berkline Cinema seats. ;Db;

Dave...

[WormGod]

I didnt get HD. Even the installer said "it isnt worth it". You have to remember, it's is still not a digital signal. They use a digital box with component/rca to the tv. What the box does is, it takes the analog signal and renders it out with progressive scan, much like a DVD player will do. It looks clearer, but it's like covering a pimple with blush. It's still not true digital. THE LINE INTO THE BOX FROM THE WALL IS STILL COAX!!!!!! WTF!!!! They are robbing millions who have no idea that they are really not getting a digital signal. Oh sure, they are getting widescreen broadcast, but it aint digital. I smell class action suit in the near future. Just make sure you read ANY small print.

[Cyrk]

Humm good point Worm... AHHH do not know what to do now?? Might switch to Direct TV.

[tiggergreen]

I bought a HDTV from Costco and a HDTV receiver at Walmart ($200) - now I get High-Def broadcasts over the air for free. The picture is awesome. All of the new shows are broadcast in high-def... I love the monthly price - $0.00.

If you pay for tv, you feel like you have to watch - and there is too much to do in life to be saddled to a sofa watching tv all the time.

I especially love Alias - I just rented the DVDs and the picture was much worse on DVD than the broadcast...

Brent

[WyrreJ]

OTA (over the air) is the way to go if you are in range. Check your address at www.antennaweb.org to see, the user interface ain't the greatest there but it should make sense eventually.

But Worm, I think you seriously misunderstand what's up with the comcast box. One common error people make is to confuse Comcast's basic digital cable box with high-def, to get high-def you have to spend $3 more on top of the $5/month fee for digital cable. With just digital, the channels are either analog (channel numbers under 100) or standard-def digital which is approximately DVD-quality. But, the extra $3 and the high-def digital box will get you access to all of your locals in high-def and a couple of other basic level ones, plus if you sub to HBO or Showtime then you will get the high-def versions of those channels as part of the $3 fee.

In either case, the coax line is quite capable of carrying digital signals, after all if you have a cable modem it plugs into the same coax and it is obviously digital only. On the other end, running component video to your display with a high-def signal is signficantly more than just blush on a pimple, whether it is with a comcast-hd box or a satellite-hd receiver or an OTA high-def receiver, the majority of current HDTV owners use component video to get the picture to the display and it still looks awesome. One way to think about it is like a CRT monitor on your computer, CRTs have long been able to do resolutions higher than the highest high-definition resolution, but they use an analog VGA cable which is essentially just RGB+sync and can be converted to component video pretty easily (I have a $100 box designed just for that purpose). If a computer's analog display can look as good as they do, so can the analog output of a cableco's high-def set-top box.

[WyrreJ]

Originally posted by VXMAN
Rumor, it's not a rumor, just a LONG ***** PROJECT. Yes, I'm trying to (slowly) build a 8 seat movie theater! But, for this room, I will run a HD projector with a 120" screen. I may need to sell shares in 3 available seats, to help defray the project cost! Anyone want to claim a seat? They are going to be nice and comfy! Berkline Cinema seats. ;Db;

Dave...
I actually have a 120" screen in my basement, didn't spring for the berkline furniture but the room is my gym as much as it is my home-theatre.

The best advice I can give is, don't over-pay for your projector. I spent about $2K for a used JVC DILA and I get the same, or better picture quality with just a tad less contrast than brand new current model $10K+ units. It probably won't be for another couple of years before there is a projector that is significantly better than even the first-generation DILAs at even the $5K price-point - no screen-door, top-notch color rendition, highest available resolution, highest available fill-factor, etc. It is pretty surprising how little DILA has advanced while all the other projector types (LCD and DLP) have been playing catch-up.

As an educated guess, I think you could do everything - screen, projector, audio system and furniture for under $10K and still come out with a really impressive setup. Certainly enough to send the neighbors scrambling to spend twice as much just to keep up with the joneses.

[Andrey]

Originally posted by WormGod
I didnt get HD. Even the installer said "it isnt worth it". You have to remember, it's is still not a digital signal. They use a digital box with component/rca to the tv. What the box does is, it takes the analog signal and renders it out with progressive scan, much like a DVD player will do. It looks clearer, but it's like covering a pimple with blush. It's still not true digital. THE LINE INTO THE BOX FROM THE WALL IS STILL COAX!!!!!! WTF!!!! They are robbing millions who have no idea that they are really not getting a digital signal. Oh sure, they are getting widescreen broadcast, but it aint digital. I smell class action suit in the near future. Just make sure you read ANY small print.

installer just BS'ed you - it worth EVERY SINGLE PENNY ! there is a difference between digital cable which is about the resolution of DVD 480i. Also for additional charge you can get 8-10 HDTV channels which are coming at a resolution 1080i and trust me - you do see a difference especially on fixed pixel display like my 50 inch NEC plasma. The fact that it is coax coming into your house means nothing - it is the modulation like QAM in some places that they use at the cable station to fit all that junk into the pipe - digital phone, HDTV, hight speed internet etc.... today (as much as I hate to say that) cable is one of the "authorized" methods to archive HDTV programming to D-VHS. Time shifting solutions (box has internal harddrive) from Dish Network are no good for me and I hate cable as is so I just sit and wait who next will have a way to archive to D-VHS. There is also a hack job called 169time - they modify HDTV receivers from Dish and Direct and allow you to record HDTV but if recording is not your priority then I'll say stay away from this solution. As a rule of thumb - your display dictates if you should get HDTV programming. People with Plasma Displays, Projectors, Big Screen rear projection TVs etc. reap the HUDGE benefit of a picture which is shot with HD Cams, edited and transmitted in HD.

[Deathbyarchitect]

Mine (panasonic 50" rear projection LCD) has a built in HD tuner and I have a basic-I mean really basic-service without comcast cable box.
I still getting all local channels in HD and sometimes I can watch movie channels. mine just pick those signals up.....^^
downside is when I watch movies and suddenly it loses signal especially almost at the end of a movie:mad: :mad: ;Dy;
so buy one with HD built in.;Dy; ;Dy;

[WormGod]

Um, actually, no. You are not getting total digital. Coax is capable of sending a digital signal, but so is any copper wire. The digital box recieves the signal from the coax line and translates it and enhances it for HD. Much like a cable modem signal booster. It's like wearing 2 sweatshirts to look more buff. You still aren't buff. (pssst, I am good friends with the tech support manager at Comcast here.... I know a few things just by hearing his rants).

There are ways to go though. Comcast here has been running tests in certain areas using DVI and firewire, coupled through a fiber optic-to-component video connection. My buddy Clayton is part of this test and uses his 65" Mitsubishi HDTV. It is simply awesome. I have only watched tv at his place a few times, but it left jealous mark over my head. This connection is also capable of broadcasting 7.1 dolby digital in the bandwidth packets, so that too is simply awesome. Hopefully, the system works out well and the connection goes mainstream. I am told that a few more areas here have already been piped in with this connection, unfortunately, not where I live. :(

Basically, time will tell. If you look around most audio/visual stores now, you may see maybe 2-4 models of projection tvs. The rest of the massive stock is plasma or lcd. The phasing is already taking place and with better technology like blu-ray coming out, this upcoming year will be VERY fun and expensive in the home entertainment realm.

[Cyrk]

Well got my HD Dish 811 Receiver last night installed... pretty happy with the HD PQ using the a DVI cable. We will see how the HD arena plays out over the next year... Now I need to get a Antenna to get my locals in HD and then a HD DVR.

[UtahVXer]

Where we live there is only one channel that is broadcasting in true HD (720p), the other so-called HD channels are only broadcasting 480p (same as a DVD player with progressive scan). This is a lot cheaper; and they won't have to upgrade until 2006. Anyway, most people don't know the difference; and frankly 480p is a HUGE improvement over 480i. I don't know if the Dish channels are true HD or not, probably depends on the program you're watching; but regardless of whether you have satellite or cable, you will have coax going into your decoder box; the important thing is to be sure to use either DVI or HDMI to connect to your TV. You can also get some DVD players that have digital output, for the best quality picture.

[WyrreJ]

Originally posted by WormGod

There are ways to go though. Comcast here has been running tests in certain areas using DVI and firewire, coupled through a fiber optic-to-component video connection.

You might want to read some of the stuff in these forums:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=6

You will find extensive discussion of comcast's product. The more knowledgable people in those forums tend to know way more about what comcast is doing than most comcast employees.

I can tell you one thing with absolute certainty - firewire ain't no limited test, it was mandated by the FCC that all cable providers carrying HDTV *must* provide firewire output from their set-top box to any customer that requests it starting around May of this year.

You'll find plenty of discussion of this ruling in those forums as well as stories from a lot of the early-adopters, including the ones that had to escalate the issue all the way to the FCC before their local provider would comply.


PS, there is no such thing as 7.1 Dolby Digital, 5.1 with a matrixed (instead of discrete) sixth channel is all there is today. Dolby's marketing name for that product is Dolby Digital EX, (http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/dolby_ex.html) also sometimes called THX-EX, although theoretically the two are different (at least that's what the THX marketing material would like people to think).

[WormGod]

Originally posted by WyrreJ
PS, there is no such thing as 7.1 Dolby Digital, 5.1 with a matrixed (instead of discrete) sixth channel is all there is today. Dolby's marketing name for that product is Dolby Digital EX, (http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/dolby_ex.html) also sometimes called THX-EX, although theoretically the two are different (at least that's what the THX marketing material would like people to think).

7.1 is the enhanced virtual NEO/MATRIX advertised in many recievers. When I pop a DVD in that takes advantage of a DTS signal and I toggle the ES config, "7.1 MATRIX" appears on my panel. Also, look into many audio cards for PC. The advertised "7.1" just might take you for a loop. You could be right by saying there is no such thing as 7.1, but manufacturers sure seem to think there is. *shrug*

I seriously hope to get my cable modem connection repaired first, and then I want to look into digital options for audio/video. Currently though, I am peeved at Comcast. Been in my new place for 8 days and have already been on their tech support line over 30 times. Modem worked for 2 days then never again, messed up my tv package and still dont have it right, and video likes to scramble occasionally on tv. I miss DTV.

Also, if you just got a new tv and/or sound system center, look into this product....

AVIA (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/630551982X/002-9536554-0736027?v=glance&s=dvd&search-path-string=)

Very easy to use audio/visual configuration disk that works right through a DVD player. A tad pricey for a DVD, but well worth it for proper installment of your home system.

[Yefim]

Since we are on the Home Theater subject... can anyone recommend affordable video/audio switch? I am looking for something that will take several component type inputs (dvd player, xbox, HTPC, etc.) and will have one (or more) component output to a TV. If it has audio input/output it would be a plus but not required - I can do that through my receiver. I'd like it to have a remote control as well for convenience, but it is not required either. Anyone can recommend something good?

[Cyrk]

AVIA... I second that, have that DVD for years. A must for a novice to calibrate a there displays.

[WyrreJ]

Originally posted by Yefim
Since we are on the Home Theater subject... can anyone recommend affordable video/audio switch? I am looking for something that will take several component type inputs (dvd player, xbox, HTPC, etc.) and will have one (or more) component output to a TV. If it has audio input/output it would be a plus but not required - I can do that through my receiver. I'd like it to have a remote control as well for convenience, but it is not required either. Anyone can recommend something good?

I was wandering around a worstbuy or something the other day when I saw the Pelican System Selector Pro (http://www.cubegameworld.com/article.php/id/129/) which has 8 inputs (7 on the back). I think it will do everything you need, except it does not have a remote control. Looks like it is going for around $70, here's a link to it at wal-mart (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2462762), their price is competitive with the others in froogle. You might even find it in store and save on shipping.

A year ago or so and something like this would have cost $300 easy. I haven't seen any analysis of signal attenuation or even claimed bandwidth, but if you buy it at wal-mart, online or brick&mortar you can always return it to the store if it sucks.

EDIT: I looked around somewhere and it sounds like the bandwidth on the Pelican might not be so hot. This zektor (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5724377544) claims to have enough bandwidth and does "use" a remote control, but it only switches video, not audio.

This thread (http://www.satelliteguys.us/archive/index.php/t-3455.html) is pretty interesting, there is a post about halfway through where a guy opened is receiver and noticed the s-video and composite video switching was purely relay based, so theoretically it has unlimited bandwidth. He found some s-video to rca cables and used the s-video plus composite video ports on his receiver to switch the component video signals. Seems very pleased with it. If it works for your system, that would clearly be the best way to go and the cheapest too.

[WyrreJ]

Originally posted by WormGod
7.1 is the enhanced virtual NEO/MATRIX advertised in many recievers.

Yeah, I've got a 7.1 setup with bohlender-graebener 520's all around with aragon amps, palladiums on the front three. But the difference is like 4 wheel drive vs 2 wheel drive. Both cars have 4 tires, but 2 wheel drive only moves two wheels and the other two are just "pushed along" by the wheels with real connections to a drive-shaft. With a 7.1 setup, you got all 7 speakers, but there's only 5 actual channels of sound, the other two just get "pushed" along by some derivative of the audio in the 5 real channels.

At least that is the way it is with dolby digital. DTS has a 6.1 with DTS-ES (not DTS-EX which is matrixed just like Dolby EX) but even that is just 6, not 7 actual discrete channels and HDTV signals are not able to carry DTS audio of any sort, the ATSC standard does not have any provision for it at all, just AC3, AAC and MPEG2 audio.

Video games on a PC with a 7.1 sound card can potentially drive all 7 speakers independently, although it is a lot more rare than you might think (I was very disappointed to find that only the 7.1 soundblasters can do that with their EAX-HD and possibly their Directsound3D support, all the other cards just matrix out the 6th and 7th channels from 5 or less discrete ones, just like Dolby-EX).




Also, if you just got a new tv and/or sound system center, look into this product....

AVIA (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/630551982X/002-9536554-0736027?v=glance&s=dvd&search-path-string=)

Very easy to use audio/visual configuration disk that works right through a DVD player. A tad pricey for a DVD, but well worth it for proper installment of your home system.

AVIA is very useful for DVD playback, but not as great for HDTV. It does depend on how much of a videophile you are.

Two problems with AVIA for HDTV - first the resolution of the test patterns are all DVD-res (of course, since it is a DVD) and second and much more obscurely, the colorspace for DVD is different than the colorspace for HDTV. I don't know WTF they were thinking when they did that, but the result is that a system properly set-up for DVD will have colors that are slightly "off" when displaying HDTV material. You may never notice it unless you have a correct HDTV setup side-by-side with a DVD-tuned setup, both playing HDTV.

There is an option, but it is way too expensive for most people - Video Essentials (http://videoessentials.com/ve_d_order.php) (who also make a DVD competitor to AVIA) have a DVHS version of their product that is for HDTV. But it is priced at $90, not like the DVDs are. And you gotta have a DVHS deck which is probably dead-end technology. But, if you are video-freak you may already have such a deck, or two.

By the way, Guy Kuo, the author of the AVIA DVD, is a regular at those avsforums (http://www.avsforums.com/) that I mentioned previously, although I haven't seen him post recently, but the place is so busy it is easy to miss a lot of posts if you are just casually browsing. A friend of mine, whom I turned on to the benefits of a front-projector system, bought a used projector that Guy had personally modified for better contrast. It's weird how the net can make the world really small like that.

[johnnyapollo]

You might want to look at this deal:

AllSat - FREE 4 Room System with HD (Includes 6 Months of FREE HD Pak)! Dish 811 HD Receivers and TV Dish 522 Digital Video Recorder Included!

Now, all new customers who subscribe to HD Pak will get 6 months FREE! That`s a $59.94 value for the first 6 months of service. You can get up to a 4 room system with TWO Dish HD 811 receivers (with both component and DVI output, optical Dolby digital output) and a TV Dish 522 digital video recorder for FREE! You pay a $49.99 activation fee (which includes delivery and professional installation), which is then credited back to your first full month of programming. HDTV is absolutely incredible. I was surprised at how much better it looked than DVD on my projection and plasma TV`s. With their basic $9.99 Dish Network HD Pack, which you need for this promo, you get some of the best channel: HDNet, HDNet Movies, EspnHD, and DiscoveryHD! Local channels are included FREE in the packages in all of the available areas (not an extra $5). Instead of having to sign up for a 1 or 2 year contract, it`s 6 months now, which is 1/2 the duration of most other programs! Basically, you sign up through AllSat and subscribe to a minimum of America`s Top 60, have a DISH 811 and maintain the HD Pak on their account to receive the monthly credit, along with any other applicable requirements. For the regular price of $9.99 per month, the DISH Network HD Pak includes the following HD programming channels: ESPN HD, Discovery HD Theater, TNT HD, HDNet and HDNet Movies. Now it`s FREE for 6 months. Why pay well over $1000 for a pair of HDTV receivers and a pair of DVR`s, when you can use em for free with this service? Heck, even lifetime warranty on these products is included (they send you a free prepaid shipping box for your stuff).

http://www.allsat.com/?kbid=2709

I'm not sure what regions it applies to, but you can't really beat the deal.

-- Best, John

[Yefim]

WyrreJ, thanks for the info and links! That Pelican unit actually looks great and I will check out if my local WalMart has it today. The fact that it has video, audio, and network is worth more to me then the fact that it is missing the remote. After all, most of the time I need to get up anyways when I want to switch the components (to turn on the Xbox or put in DVD, etc.) so not having a remote is ok as long as I don't have to switch wires all the time.

The Storm unit will also do the trick but I think it looks kinda ugly IMHO. Also, I can't quite make out where the digital audio input/outputs are... I guess some of those plugs are SP/DIO (did I spell that right?) type. I was looking more for a digital optical input/outputs because this is what my DVD, Xbox, and receiver have.

I think I will try the Pelican unit and see if it is good enough for my needs.

Thanks again for the info!

[WormGod]

My buddy that works for Comcast came over last night and checked out my system. He did a few tweaks and gave me some pointers on better picture quality. He clipped the coaxial from the wall to the box to make it as short as possible and did the same with the line from the box to the tv. Sure enough, the quality of the video gets more crisp if the line is shorter. Something I never knew. Also, there is a coaxial cable speciafically made for better video quality. It turns out to be the same coax for cable modems. It transfers a cleaner signal. I have yet to try this out, but he recommended it. I also asked more about the digital cable reciever. His appreciation for his was 100%. If you have a DVI connection on your tv, you really cant go wrong with it. Although, the component video is really good too. The digital recievers they offer have DVI out, component out, optical audio out, and coaxial audio out. For $3 for a month, I just might do this. Although I dont watch much tv, $3 is hardly gonna break the wallet.

Since we are on the hi res digital subject though, what do you all know about DVD video? I have been following this for a couple of years now, but DVDs still dont play back any better than 480p (if you have a progressive player). Any clue as to when DVDs and players will bump up the res or are we still gonna have to wait till something like Blu-ray goes mainstream?

[Cyrk]

I had purchased a Samsung HD 841 DVD player that Up converts to 720p & 1081i through DVI... I ended up retuning the player because of the blacks lacking on the player. But there are up converting players out there. I did not really notice a huge difference but it did look cleaner.

There is also a Zenith player that up converts through component's also.

Lots of good talk about these players here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=18

-Dave