Pro/Con of Air intake Kit

[marximus]

i dont know much about air intakes so please educate me! my buddy just got one of those air intake kits off ebay and installed it into his rodeo. he tells me it increases his horsepower because it lets more air into the egine at a faster rateand... blah blah blah. i dont think he knows what he is talking about as much as i think he is just reciting what he was told. so clear this up for me. i want to know what the benifits of the air intake are, and what the drawback are(there must be some otherwise everyone would do this) ?

if i decide this is worth adding to my VX, where should i purchase one, or is there a specificone that fits the VX the best?

thanks
-mark

[jayfotos]

Yes, it makes a difference.....well at least on my engine with SC.

Below is my dyno chart before and after I put in my intake. I added 50hp and 50 lps of torque off the line and 11hp overall to the ground.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/901hp2.jpg

[SlowPro48]

Originally posted by jayfotos
Below is my dyno chart before and after I put in my intake. I added 50hp and 50 lps of torque off the line and 11hp overall to the ground.


Let me get this straight - you're saying the intake alone added 50hp at 2750 rpm? That's one hell of an intake you got there...

With such a steep curve on the low end it looks more like a before/after chart for a blower install than just an intake.

[jayfotos]

Nope, it's after I put in the intake. The first run is the SC with the stock airbox....Yea, I know....it blew away the guys that ran the dyno.

[marximus]

i dont have a SC(unfortunately), so would it be worth installing a new air intake? also is there another option in terms of getting denser air into the engine?

Thanks

[MachineVX]

I have a morgan tec intake, and I'm very happy with it. I get much better throttle response with the cone filter. I consistently run 0 to 60 in the mid 7's, with the intake and exhaust mods.

[On Your Left]

Jayfotos/Machine,

I put a K&N on the the stock box and noticed a small improvement in mpg, but nothing to rave about. The performance gains of an after market intake sounds great for a 'small' investment, but what about mileage improvements?

JT

[Joe_Black]

I've had good results in economy and a noticeable "pep" increase with the K&N filter in our three Isuzu 3.5 vehicles (two VX). With the PV2 and Morgan-tec on the Dragon there was a big change per the butt-dyno. Just remember that for an intake mod to work well you need to couple it with an exhaust mod. What you're really doing is helping the engine breathe easier. You're not going to get radical gains, but noticeable ones worth the relatively small investment. After that it's induction and porting. ;Do;

[jimbo]

With a low-restriction air filter and the 6VE1 engine (with its potential problems) is there any concern about the life of the motor?

I've read that most of the contaminants that get in your engine come through the air intake. Are low-restriction filters as good or better than stock at filtering particles?

Just wondering what people's thoughts were on this.

[Joe_Black]

6VE1 potential problems? There aren't any other than poor maintenance or just bad luck. There are literally hundreds of thousands of 6VE1 engines out there in a variety of vehicles. Ours weren't specially built, they came from the same pool that other Isuzu models drew upon. Unfortunately a few in our small community had the misfortune of getting a bad mill and that's led to a tremendous misconception within the VX family that there's a problem with the 6VE1, which simply isn't true. Any Isuzu owner will tell you they're good for at least 250K miles with minimum expense and basic maintenance. :thumbup:

Actually it's rather poignant that at this juncture in Isuzu's history when they're about to rid themselves of the anchor that GM has been, that the only recall in their US history was attributed to the Ascender which they don't even build.

As for the low restriction air filters, they're low restriction because of larger surface area rather than reduced filtration.

[jimbo]

A Google search will reveal many dozens (perhaps hundreds) of horror stories about late model troopers, rodeos etc. with blown engines at 40,000, 50,000, 60,000 miles. There's probably some issue here, however ....

I'm gonna believe you Joe, for the same reason I believe in God. Because I really, really, really NEED to believe. (LOL) ;Do;

P.S Joe- My Mom lives in Brandon, your neck of the woods is my favorite part of the country and my second home.

[t2p]

jimbo .........
.
just keep an eye on your oil consumption ....
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and replace those shock absorbers .......... !!!
.
also .......
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jimbo - my guess is that most, if not all - of the 'less restrictive' air filter elements will allow more 'particles' to pass through .......
.
although many/most/all? do have a larger surface area (due to design my guess - type of pleat, whatever) , I believe the element material itself is less restrictive ........
.
it probably would not stop me from installing a K&N though ..........

[jimbo]

and replace those shock absorbers .......... !!!

Ha Ha Ha ... read my other post huh?

I'll probably get a K&N eventually as well.

[Joe_Black]

LOL Jimbo! ;Dy; Be sure to look us up next time you're down, we'll get a mini-meet together. Florida has a fantastic bunch of VXers.

As for maintenance, just be sure to use a good quality synthetic oil such as Mobil-1 or Amsoil and change regularly with a good filter. A very good habit to get into with the 6VE1 is to change the PCV every other oil change. I usally pick up several PCV's at a time since they're only about $4 each, that way I have them on hand when oil change time comes. This simple routine will keep your mill happy and healthy for miles to come.

[t2p]

yepper .....
.
Jimbo ...... kangaroo = shot shock absorber .... or plural ..........
.

[vettewars]

I have mucho experience with supercharging on the Thunderbird SC. I won't be modifying the VX until the wife hands it over to me (probably never).

I have an M90 supercharger, soon to be magnaported, but got big gains by installing an airtight ram air system, including an ugly 4 inch round pickup right to the front of the car airflow. In general, extensive air intake mods on the SC have produced perhaps hp gains of 40% over stock. So what has been reported here as 50hp increase AFTER air mods is not unrealistic. It must be proof of the poor air intake of stock design.

Ram air systems are only just being exploited and perfected in stock offerings now...especially bikes. You've seen the "batmobile" Pontiac Firebird, well it took me extensive mods to be able to run with that devil, which can take a C5 vette on the highway no problem because of its ram air.

There is NO one I know and I've done extensive research on ram air systems...that intelligently quantifies the improvement. Most get gains which show a car running cooler on a dyno because they put an industrial fan in front of the car.

On the highway, my boost gage goes from 7 lbs stock (because of headers, it's normally 12 lb stock) to 8 lbs around 90mph, to about 12lbs at 130mph. That's all FREE hp. If you recall, the old Grand Nationals got trememdous results from running the air intake out to the front of the car through a removed front headlight. I see possibilities for the VX in terms of working something to the front (but the wife deal, drats).

My bottom line experience ....do air intake and exhaust (drop cat, especially if SC, if possible) and by god supercharging is the best. For reliabilities sake I wouldn't go much past 50% hp increase though.

[jimbo]

Joe- Will do (although I'm usually in a rental car, can't stand that long drive getting down there).

How 'bout Royal Purple oil (it's what I used this past weekend). Do you really think it sucks? My engine sure seems quieter.

To be honest I'm one of those guys who's always a sucker for something expensive, exotic and hard to find (hence the VX). Someone could probably put a big stinky turd in a fancy purple package, sell it as the best car wax in the world for $30 a container and I'd probably buy it and give it a try. LOL ;Dp;

----------------------------

T2P - My VX is dark red like yours and started out in your area (Pittsburg) as a corporate rental/fleet car, if you can believe that.

It had very low miles and most of the miles went on in the first couple of months. I figure some executive got it for giggles on a long trip. It made its way back to PA (I'm the third owner) via a bank vice-president (real nice guy) who kept it in a rented garage in Boston and didn't drive it very much at all.

I'm lucky to have found it.

P.S. - Sorry I think I strayed way off topic.

[Joe_Black]

Don't get me started on that purple stuff! ;pp; I'm pretty much a Mobil-1 nut based on industry, aviation and motorsport real-world data and use. It's a true synthetic and has an unparalleled track record no other lubricant can touch, plain and simple.

[jimbo]

Joe, you've probably already seen this but I thought it was interesting. Mobil 1 did really good, but these guys probably won't get to testing Royal Purple for another year (bummer) : ;eekp; ;Dp; ;pp; ;Dp; ;eekp;

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html

Can anyone tell it's Friday and I'm getting like absolutely no work done?

P.S. - I KNOW you're a Mobil 1 double-agent Joe. Your cover is blown.

[vettewars]

especially this green eared newbie.....

but I've been around A LOT of racing. What is raced bears virtually no resemblance to what you buy in the stores.

Fact - synthetics have not had widespread usage in racing until recently. I personally know people that race stock cars and many say they know NO ONE that uses synthetics. Most of its usage is part of promotions.

Fact, and I've verified this personally, add one quart of synthetic to 4 quarts of regular oil and it flows beautifully at 10 degrees. ..much better than straight dino oil. Thus one of the chief benefits of synthetics can be realized with only 20% blends (ever wonder why they come like that?)

For high performance cars, and particularly BMW believes this (and I've bought their Castrol TYS motorsport 10W-60, yes a full 50W range! at $8 a quart)....you need HIGH range for high performance. Running vettes and so forth on 10W-30W Mobile 1 and going like hell makes no sense whatsover.

Such much improved, high W rated oils have only been recently available at reasonable prices to the public.

Mobile 1- any 30W version ....well....every car I put it in....it always burns to some extent.

I've run into MANY hard core fans of CASTROL BMW standard 30W synthetic for BMW cars....so I've investigated that. They say they use it in all the "family cars" and it doesn't burn, doesn't affect gaskets, anywhere near what the Mobile 1 does. It's also reasonably priced from BMW.

Before you say I'm crazy....do your own personal experiment. Check your oil usage using mobile 1 and then do the same thing with Castrol bought from a BMW dealership. I've done this in several cars and there is a difference.

In one experiment, I took my wife's former truck, a 120k mile Blazer and ran it on Mobile 1. Sounded pretty much like a sewing machine. Under the BMW castrol, oil pressure was higher, and it didn't burn out like the mobile 1.

[jimbo]

So BMW has their own brand of Castrol oil?

Interesting.

Thanks for the real world info.

Is this what you usually use?

[t2p]

Synthetics have been used for years in Motorcycles ...... for so many years I can barely remember when I used a non-synthetic oil .......... early 70's maybe ........
.
F1 cars have also been on synthetics for years ........ minimum 20 years ........... probably more. Honda - when they dominated F1 years ago - adhered to the 'best' philosophy; they built or used the best available .... produced the best engine, used the best suppliers, had the best drivers. Honda used Mobil 1 oil.
.
I don't think I would use 'Stock Cars' as an example .... that is a sponser driven circuit ...... a different animal (they still run carburetors) ... and generally use what their sponsers tell them to run .........
.
many/most ? big diesel rigs now run synthetics ...... even 'old fart' farmers - many are using synthetics in their vintage tractors .....
.

[vettewars]

Many believe it's BETTER.....

When you think of how they obsess on service, etc, who knows actually....

I use 4 quarts of Castrol dinosaur 20-50W and 1 quart of the super synthetic 10W-60W in my 300hp Supercoupe. 207K miles of abuse attests to the fact that this is OK. That car has innumerable 1/4 mile runs and mucho street racing on it.

I use dino in the family cars, and switch to add 1 quart of synthetic only during Nov to Apr timeframe.

Oil changes pretty much every 2500.

Plenty of other info shows that dino oil is equivalent in lub potential to synthetic in all but extreme heat and I mean extreme. Dino also only begins to show ANY degradation over say 1500 miles.....and it's still well within safe ranges at 3000miles. You could achieve nearly EVERY benefit of less sludge and cleanliness simply by changing dyno oil every 1500 miles.

Your car normally would see bearing temps of say 170 degrees which is NO WHERE NEAR the benefit realized with synthetic. And what goes on your car really first?

[vettewars]

The Honda team et al does not use mobile one you buy in walmart at 10W-30W.

There is NO ONE in serious racing that uses anything but specially formulated race oil that you can't normally buy.

Point is....the stuff you buy on the shelf burns in 90% of all cars on the road. Up until about 4 or 5 years ago it also wreaked havoc on gaskets..

Try and factor that in when you think you're benefiting from mobile one and you're out playing racer and just blew a head gasket.

I personally believe you'll get more life out of your car if you simply pay the extra to run it on high test constantly. I can give you some reports on that if you're really interested.

A little known secret is that ALL motors run cooler, have more power using high test.

[morgan-tec]

Originally posted by marximus
i dont know much about air intakes so please educate me! my buddy just got one of those air intake kits off ebay and installed it into his rodeo. he tells me it increases his horsepower because it lets more air into the egine at a faster rateand... blah blah blah. i dont think he knows what he is talking about as much as i think he is just reciting what he was told. so clear this up for me. i want to know what the benifits of the air intake are, and what the drawback are(there must be some otherwise everyone would do this) ?

if i decide this is worth adding to my VX, where should i purchase one, or is there a specificone that fits the VX the best?

thanks
-mark

Back to the topic of the thread.....

My name is Mike and i build the Morgan-tec intakes a bunch of people on here have. AS far as the power increase, my intakes gain 10.5hp at the tires(yes i have dyno proof) this is with stock exhaust. Now you throw on a less restrictive exhaust like say Morgan-tec custom muffler, of any # of other mfg.s you can expect another 5-8hp at the tires. My kit will also gain you a little mpg depending on your driving habbits. So for an investment of >$300-$400 you can expect 15-18hp increase at the tires.
The drawbacks related to kits like this are the intake noise ( which i personally love) and a possible decrease in mpg due to your new lead foot syndrome due to the increased intake noise. Other than that i have not personally found any significant drawbacks to a mod like this. I have been running one of my kits on my Axiom for almost three two years now with no problems. Other than my kit and the hotshot kit which i dont even think is made anymore, there are no other bolt on kits avaiable for the VX and Axiom. If you are intrested or have any more ? please PM me, call 970-690-6856, or email me.

[Tone]

Please present the REAL data that supports your ’real world’ experience? Synthetics are miles above regular oils in longevity, increased lubricity (can you say less wear), and stability. I’m guessing you have never seen inside an engine that has run synthetics versus one that runs regular oil - BIG difference even with short change intervals.

BTW, motors may run cooler on higher octane buy they do NOT necessarily have more power - 2 much octane can actually decrease power. If there is not enough compression and spark to burn the higher octane fuel completely, it does not get the power out of the fuel. Look forward to those reports...

[jayfotos]

I run on Redline syn, but maybe switching to M1 or Royal P. I'm also switching out all my other lubes with syn(even though I did all this a 30k).

[SlowPro48]

Originally posted by jayfotos
Nope, it's after I put in the intake. The first run is the SC with the stock airbox....Yea, I know....it blew away the guys that ran the dyno.

25% gain just from eliminating the airbox - that is absolutely phenomenal. I would never have suspected there would be that much pressure drop across the stock setup. It must be because of the s/c. That Rootes blower must be pumping a lot of air! How much boost are you running?

Your 50hp gain is on the low end where you wouldn't expect there would be much restriction, while the gain on top - where you'd expect to get the most benefit from a high-flow system - was "only" 11 hp. Weird.

Does the blower cut down on intake honk or is it just as loud as an aspro engine?

[SlowPro48]

Originally posted by marximus
i want to know what the benifits of the air intake are, and what the drawback are(there must be some otherwise everyone would do this) ?


Sorry - I guess you did have a question hanging out there didn't you? I was in awe of that dyno chart and didn't give an answer. Actually I don't have an "answer" for you - just an opinion and you know what they say about opinions...

The benefit of those pod filter intake things is more power at high revs/large throttle openings. The drawbacks are (possibly) a slight decrease in power at lower rpms/small throttle openings due to loss of the Helmholtz effect created by the stock setup - and noise, noise, noise!

For a street driven, normally aspirated engine I'd say stay with the stock airbox because, while the power gain from losing the airbox will be minimal, the noise increase is quite noticable. If you want to get a sneak preview without spending any money just ride around with your airbox lid off. Don't forget to duct tape the filter in.

What is your motivation for wanting to modify the intake? If it's more power, let me ask you this: are you going around with your boot in the floor all the time now? I've found that just pressing a little harder on the right-most pedal will yeild more power - enough to get the blue lights flashing in my mirror if I push that pedal too much for too long. Power from the stock engine is not a speed limiting factor in my street driving experience. Traffic, the laws of the State and awareness of my lack of driving ability are the primary limiting factors. Even if I felt the need for more power during the brief periods I'm running WFO, it wouldn't be worth putting up with that intake noise 100% of the time for a few extra horsepower that I would tap into less than 1% of the time.

On the other hand if what you're seeking is attention - and you're not getting enough just by driving a VX - then by all means go for that honking intake. Just keep in mind that thereafter you won't know if people are staring at you because they think your VX is cool or because they think you're a nuisance...

NOTE: This is just my opinion based on street driving values/priorities. If you're racing your VX and fractions of a second count and you spend a lot of time at WOT and stealth doesn't matter then we're talking about a different scenario and my opinion would be different as well.

[kpaske]

Morgon-Tec -

I've currently got a PV muffler and a Calmini cone filter setup and although switching to the Calmini introduced a bit of underhood noise, I hardly notice it. The PV is what really makes it a loud machine. How do your intakes compare, noise-wise and HP-wise, to a regular cone filter setup?

[morgan-tec]

Originally posted by kpaske
Morgon-Tec -

I've currently got a PV muffler and a Calmini cone filter setup and although switching to the Calmini introduced a bit of underhood noise, I hardly notice it. The PV is what really makes it a loud machine. How do your intakes compare, noise-wise and HP-wise, to a regular cone filter setup?

Noiose wise they should be pretty close, maybe a little louder. AS for the hp# getting rid of your stock plastic elbow will help some, my kit replaces everything. I did some testing with a kit like the one you have and my complete kit beat it by 4hp at the tires, not much but still there.

[Joe_Black]

Just got back in town after the weekend and will have to disagree with vettewars a bit on the use of sythetics in racing. Funny thing is, what got me hooked on Mobil-1 was they were the first and only 100% synthetic to receive certification for aviation by the FAA for use in the United States. About the same time (late 80's) I was AMA roadracing for Kawasaki and everyone was going synthetic, about a 50/50 split between Mobil-1 and Castrol. Since Castrol is actually a blend our team (and most others) had some issues and soon switched to Mobil-1. I also found Mobil-1 very prevalent in SCCA racing when I had my FIAT 124 EP cars, and virtually everyone used it at the 1995 La Carrera Pan Americana. That race represented over 150 praticipants from all over the world, pushing their cars to the limit for 6 days and 2100 miles from the southern border of Mexico to Nuevo Laredo. Seeing Mobil-1 on these front lines of autosport and aviation since it's introduction is the reason for my strong opinion of this product, in addition to the results I've seen in the agricultural/industrial field with the Delvac-1 fully synthetic diesel product. Not any other brand has been so consistently represented among a broader variety of vehicles and owners in my personal experience in almost 20 years. That's why I'm such a proponent of the product.

Now for back on topic stuff... I've got Mike's kit and can vouch that you can hear it over the PV2, but it's a nice sound you get really used to fast. I hear it a lot more now that I've got the Kumho Ecsta STX tires since they're so quiet. As for the power increase, I haven't dyno'd but the general impression of more "oomph" is noticeable. And Mike's workmanship is top-notch. :thumbup:

[Jolly Roger VX'er]

"People who know.....use Mobil 1!":homer:

I personally used to use Valvoline Durablend with no ill effects about 5 years ago before becoming a Mobil 1 addict! I used the trusty Fiero as a lab rat and ran Mobil 1 in her for a year before buying my VX. By then I had noticed that when cranking up the Fiero and immediately taking off without warming her up, there was no "lifter" noise due to thick oil that wasn't flowing yet. I also was impressed when you pulled out a quart of Mobil 1 from an ice cold trunk in order to add some to your motor in the dead of winter and it pours like regular oil on a warm day...that can't be all bad for your motor! P.S.---read the back of a Mobil 1 SuperSyn bottle of oil and check out the temperatures this stuff flows at! You don't see this on the back of conventional oil bottles!

To get back on Topic...If I hadn't SC'd my VX, I would have definately purchased an intake off Mike. I already had a color scheme picked out...(cast aluminum--aluma blast--with a silver colored cone filter to match/complement the stock intake!) If he had come up with an intake for a supercharged 3.5L, I most likely would have bitten!

As it was...I was skeptical at first by the Carbon Fiber intake Jayfotos got from Ebay in that:


Originally posted by Hotsauce
Jay:

Just my 2?, That intake goes oooOOOooo, that not good for flow, it promotes turbulance in the tube, and will slow velocity.

You want consistant diameter, with any changes being gradual.

John C.

But than Jayfotos posted the dyno results and I was blown away! I decided to give it a whirl and I can honestly say it makes a huge difference on a SC'd engine. With a stock air-box the SC impressed me...with the CF intake Installed on the SC the engine is really feeling RADICAL! I now feel the g's on my stomach when I open her up! I can't wait for an exhaust mod next spring!!!!

My only explanation for the CF intake's success is perhaps since it is a straight shot from the cone filter to the throttle assembly with no mandrel curves...perhaps this outweighs any turbulance from the changes in interior diameter?

All I know is it sure feeeeels good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lodie it does!

[jayfotos]

;)

[morgan-tec]

Originally posted by Jolly Roger VX'er
.If I hadn't SC'd my VX, I would have definately purchased an intake off Mike. If he had come up with an intake for a supercharged 3.5L, I most likely would have bitten!



I would like to get one design for the supercharged Vx but i need a donor VX to prototype off of. If there is anyone in the Fort, Collins, Denver area that would be willing i would cut you in for $25% off and free powdercoating if i could use your VX as a gunnie pig. Please let me know if there is anyone intrested.

[psychos2]

the reason for the increase from stock to carbon fiber intake is the amount of air that can flow.with the stock box it restricts air flow were the carbon fiber intake does not. you can only suck so much air through the stock setup.same with the exhaust if it is too restricted you will not get as much horsepower increase as you would with a less resrticted exaust.same concept you can only push so much air out.
as for synthetic vs dino: we use dino in all the boats we take care of due to the fact that you do not get all the benefits you do in cars (cold starts ,etc) . but we have a 32 ' skater with twin 1300 hp motors with a quad rotor supercharger setup that we use kendall 20w50 dino oil in. and when the motors are disassembled the bearings look like new.you could literally use them again. these motors get less miles but get more punishment with speeds of 170 mph. and unlike a car that shifts a boat does not.so they run @ higher rpms for extended periods of time on dino oil and still look like new inside. so it really depends on the application, and the conditions. shawn

[SlowPro48]

Originally posted by Jolly Roger VX'er

My only explanation for the CF intake's success is perhaps since it is a straight shot from the cone filter to the throttle assembly with no mandrel curves...perhaps this outweighs any turbulance from the changes in interior diameter?


You got it. With forced induction it's all about the flow - even down low. You don't need the help of wimpy pressure waves stuffing those cylinders when you've got that blower churning away up there. A normally aspirated engine, however, can actually suffer a slight loss in throttle response and power at low rpm if the airbox and helmholtz resonators are done away with. At high rpm though it's still about max flow - even on an aspro.

Just out of curiosity, do you find that the s/c helps quiet the intake? It seems like it would since you've got those rotors between the valves and your ears - as opposed to open intake on an atmospheric engine where it's a straight shot from the valves thru the throttle body and intake to your ears.

[SlowPro48]

Originally posted by psychos2
....literally use them again. these motors get less miles but get more punishment with speeds of 170 mph. and unlike a car that shifts a boat does not.so they run @ higher rpms for extended periods of time on dino oil and still look like new inside. so it really depends on the application, and the conditions. shawn

170 mph on water!? Now that's downright scary...

I usually split the diff and go with Golden Spectro semi-synthetic in the four stroke bikes. Even though the FZR motor spends most of it's life above 10K rpm, 100% crude would be fine as far as engine life is concerned because I change the oil after every race weekend and the only real advantage of synthetic is it's ability to not break down under abuse and heat. It's not any slicker than good dino juice - it's just tougher. BUT you can make more POWAH with synthetic due to it's resistance to denaturing - because you can get by with running thinner oil thereby reducing friction and windage losses. You wouldn't think that would make much of a difference but I forgot to buy Spectro oil one time and robbed my truck's supply of Rotella 20W-50 and used it in the race bike. Ordinarily at the end of the straight at VIR I'm bouncing off the 15.5K rev limiter right before the first braking marker but that day I was 500 rpm shy. Not that 500rpm would have helped against the Aprilias - just goes to show you though - viscosity matters...

[kpaske]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Amsoil yet. After reading lots of info and some interesting articles, I'm convinced that nothing compares to it. In fact (I can hear the war drums beating already), one article recommended using Amsoil for stretches as long as 18,000 miles between changes (adding oil as necessary for burnoff, as well as changing filters every 3-5k). I know there are some others out there using it...

[MrCrowley]

From what I have read in a few places, Mobil 1 and Amsoil are the only fully synthetics on the market. The others are PAO basically blends. Im going to stay in the middle as I use both depending on usage, availability, and budget. That Amsoil is a little high, but I know its good stuff.

Has anyone run Amsoil lube in their blower yet?

[Joe_Black]

I had an '02 Kawasaki that came with Amsoil in it, but switched over to Mobil-1 at the first service interval. Amsoil is the other true synthetic and I've heard some good things about it from other bikers, but it just doesn't have the 20+ year track record in the extreme conditions and applications of a worldwide market that Mobil-1 does. I'm more sold on facts, and if I hopped a flight to McMurdo Station and looked in their maintenance shop the only thing I'd find there is Mobil-1 and Delvac-1. Listening to a bunch of weekend riders on a Sunday cruise yap about some other product just doesn't carry the same weight. Looking in shops that maintain equipment that costs mega-$$$ where downtime is not an option, well that's what makes an "endorsement" in my mind. ;Do;

[Dallas4u]

I used AMSOil in the VX for a bit, and switched back to Mobil 1. There just didn't seem to be any improvement to warrant the extra price and hassle of driving somewhere to find it. Good oil though.

I use Mobil 1 in the Duke.

[SlowPro48]

Originally posted by Joe_Black
..... if I hopped a flight to McMurdo Station and looked in their maintenance shop the only thing I'd find there is Mobil-1 and Delvac-1...

Hey if I were spending somebody else's money, I'd use 100% synthetic in everything too!!! ;)

I still can't believe synthetic has much of an advantage under normal operating conditions with standard oil change intervals but it sounds like you've got a lot more experience with cars and bikes and engines in general than I have - and Mobil 1 has been good to you - so I think I'll at least try it with the next VX oil change. Who knows - maybe it will improve the gas mileage!

[t2p]

.
$20 for a five quart container of Mobil 1 at WalMart .........
.
you are probably correct - under normal conditions/circumstances .... for an automobile ....... it is probably a 'wash' ........
.
although - for someone that desires to use a multi viscosity oil with a significant 'swing' .... not so much for 10w30 - but maybe 5w30 ....... 10w40 .....5W40 .... .. 20w50 .......... the synthetic oil is a much better choice. Conventional multi vis oils with a large 'swing' are compromised by the addititives that enable them to reach their viscosity properties. Synthetic oils do not require the same (type) or amount of additives to enable them to meet these properties.
.
I could go on and on ........ about additives ...... long chain polymers .... phospherous ...... sulphur ....... or is it perposterous and sultan ....... viscosity index ...... but it is boring ........

[vettewars]

Note the graph and how Mobil 1 fairs....note how Castrol is close to the almighty AMSOIL. I'm not one to believe in synthetics as a cult....but from what I've seen about real data, AMSOIL has the best and most open information. Everything I've read on Mobile 1 is a bit too tongue in cheek.
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/apimotoroiltesting.htm

Four Ball Wear (ASTM D-4172)

The Four Ball Wear Test determines the wear protection properties of a lubricant. Three metal balls are clamped together and covered with the test lubricant, while a rotating fourth ball is pressed against them in sliding contact. This contact typically produces a wear scar, which is measured and recorded. The smaller the average wear scar, the better the wear protection provided by the lubricant. As shown in the graph, AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil produced the smallest wear scar of the tested lubricants.



http://

Four Ball Wear (ASTM D-4172) http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/api_co8.jpg

[SlowPro48]

What? There's one missing!!! Is everybody skeered to go up against the mighty ROTELLA-T????

;Dy; ;Dy; ;Dy;

[Joe_Black]

Vettewars, how about posting some data that's not from Amsoil?

[morgan-tec]

Not to be a jerk but maximus started this thread about intakes not oils. Everyone has good points on the debate but i m sure he would appreciate it if there was a thread started else where.

[marximus]

thanks morgan, but its all good. my solution for now was to just get a $55 K&N high air flow filter from local Shucks. I dont notice a HUGE difference, but i can tell that there is a difference. as for the oil posts, start a new thread just for convenience. i have a question about lights on my luggage rack, so i think ill start a new thread.

[psychos2]

if you are installing the k&n for the stock airbox, be sure to remove the elbow going in to the fender. shawn

[vettewars]

Sorry back on topic ...
I have experience with turbo and supercharged cars mostly doing mods. I've gotten big gains on my Shelby Daytona with removal of cat, 2 1/2 back exhaust, and cold air intake. Same basic equation with the thunderbird SCs I have. Not sure how easy it is to get at VX cat and work in a bypass.

I do not know this truck yet and may mess with it when my wife isn't looking, but I can support these conclusions so far:

1. 5-10hp, especially at the wheels is feelable and pleasureable.
2. 0-60 runs of mid 7s is a worthy goal and good to take on many other trucks at the light, leading to further pleasure.
3. Do anything you can to get straight COLD airflow through the front of the vehicle directly into the intake. With a good design of ram air, you will be turning your panel filter effectively into a less restrictive cone filter, or if using a cone filter, making it incrementally better. If you look at store bought ram air designs for vettes or other cars, you see there isn't that much surface area involved, yet consistent reported gains are documented for these "cold air" or "ram air" systems. For instance, one 4" round to the front of the vehicle should be more than enough. You should convince yourself you can craft one of these using home depot stuff and duck tape.
4. I've seen MANY a car modified with cone filters and expensive new intake mods yet not surrounding the air intake by airboxes or heat shields. This usually results in a wash or LOSS of hp gain because greater underhood temperatures negate the effect.

[morgan-tec]

Originally posted by vettewars
I've seen MANY a car modified with cone filters and expensive new intake mods yet not surrounding the air intake by airboxes or heat shields. This usually results in a wash or LOSS of hp gain because greater underhood temperatures negate the effect.

This is not my experiance with my intakes, i messed around with a heat shield and saw no difference in dyno #s, all my data i use is from a no heat shield standpoint. My kit still makes 10hp more at the tires over stock airbox and intake tube. In my kit the cone filter is pointed directly at the fender hole for cooler air. I also use a true cone filter with an internal surface as well as external. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/195531/Vehicross1.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/195531/Filters2.jpg

;Dr;

[vettewars]

You have hot air under the hood both ways.

But....if you do a dyno with COLD AIR blowing directly into your air intake...believe me....there is a difference.

Makers of ram air/cold air systems still haven't found a way to truly test according to air flows like when you're going say 130mph (at which I achieve a full 4 lbs extra boost on the dial on my SC car).

What they do is take an industrial fan and blow it into the front of the car....which accomplishes basically giving you colder air to the intake during the dyno test. Still....they advertise on average 5 to 10% with this cold air difference (some even more).

Their advertised hp gains are therefore not the full benefit of what can be realized at high speed. One could argue of course that this IS realistic for posted speed limits.

I think you really have to design something that comes to the front and fully funnels cold air in.

[Tone]

MorganTech - can we see your dyno slips? 10 is a LOT for an intake and filter....

I reached between the stock airbox and the fan the other day to adjust the headlights and could not believe the hot air that was being pushed right towards that corner. Veru uncomfortable and I physically could not hold my hand there for very long. I have seen a half shield at Autozone for $10 that I'm gonna try after SEMA.

[Dallas4u]

Originally posted by morgan-tec
In my kit the cone filter is pointed directly at the fender hole for cooler air.

I'm not too sure aiming at the hole will bring the cooler air in. If there is some sort of vaccum created under the hood where the air gets sucked in through this hole... I dunno... but I'm pretty sure, unless you reposition the filter to the other side of the hole (in the fender area), or direct the air in from the hole or from another open area, I don't think there will be much cold air being sucked into the filter.

[marximus]

psychos2 a.k.a. shawn,
sorry to ask this again, but i am a visual person, so a pic would really help me to see exactly what you mean before i cut. i assume this is just to get more airflow into the stock air box?

also, morgan, how much is that setup you posted above? cone and all? looks nice! how often do you have to clean the filter? it seams like the cone filter setup would get dirty fast.

[MZ-N10]

at the bottom of the air box there is a elbow thing there. ill take pictures probably 2morow if it doesnt rain since im plannin to remove the elbow.
________
EmberReigns cam (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/EmberReigns)

[marximus]

that would be great! let me know how it goes.

[morgan-tec]

Tone, give me a few days to get electrinic files of them and i will post them on here for you to see.

Marximus, the kit as pictured goes for $200 complete. I also offer powdercoating for $40. The cone filter is a stainless steel mesh style, a lot like the Blitz filters. I throw mine in the dishwasher every oil change but that is not really necessery that offen. Since this filter does not contain any oil it does not collect a lot of crap and clog like a K&N style tends to. The dirt that is filtered falls off when the vacume frm the engine is shut off. I have noticed a small dust pile form in the lower fender corner below the filter.

[marximus]

Morgan, that seems like something i will do, just not at the moment. im going to purchase a safari bar from tone, and lights to put on it, so that will set me back for a while. ill probably be able to purchase it after christmas. (sell all my gifts and buy it! ha, that would be nice!) anyhow, i would like to see the dyno sheets as well, post em! are they for a VX with a SC or without?

O ya, also, doesnt the oil from the K&N filter help a lot to reduce small particle dust from getting in the engine and increasing wear? so, would this filter setup reduce the life of my engine?

[morgan-tec]

The dyno sheets are from my Axiom, same engine you guys have so i would venture to say same results. As for the filtration these filters filter down to 20-30 microns, i have had one on a car for almost 6 years now with no problems and i run one on my Axiom.

[Tone]

Spoke with Royal Purple and they too start with a pure synthetic base as do others but they don't do air filters.

20 microns? That is a LOT of dirt getting through and into the engine. No oil on a mesh filter like that is trouble as well - EVERY one I have ever encountered like that is designed to use oil as the first and important level of protection. K&N and Green Filters (as well as stock drop ins) remove down to 5 microns.

Saw a great test on filters at SEMA and am working a deal with Green Filters for their drop in (beats the K&N in airflow by a significant amount but equal filtering) and cone filters (with heatshields) for both SCed and stock intakes. I also located a source for REAL carbon fiber tubes.

Will post a complete review and pics next week of all the cool potential VX things and more!

[jayfotos]

Tone-

Do you have any Dyno charts off your vehi, I'm interested to see how yours is running.
I don't know if I missed it, what kind of intake are you set up with your SC?

Thanks- Jay

[morgan-tec]

Here are some print outs from the dyno runs. Sorry they are not in color, i could not get electronic files so i had to scan in the printouts. As you can see my intake netted 9.1hp and 16.7 lb/ft at the tires. Now almost all companies that quote hp figures use crank #s which are typically 15-20% more than #s at the tires. So keep it in mind these are real to the tires #s.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/195531/stockdynorun.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/195531/morgan-tecintakedyno.jpg

[jayfotos]

Originally posted by On Your Left
Jayfotos/Machine,

I put a K&N on the the stock box and noticed a small improvement in mpg, but nothing to rave about. The performance gains of an after market intake sounds great for a 'small' investment, but what about mileage improvements?

JT


Sorry missed your post....

When I first installed the SC w/stock airbox K&N filter, it was sucking down gas and after I put the intake in it was like it could breathe again and was back to normal. The difference is night and day, I'm so amazed(not really) Alpine dropped the ball on this....I think it should be the standard to add a intake kit with a SC.

[Tone]

It would be nice to see the 2 runs laid on top of one another - the WinPep software can do that and they typically save all runs. Your shop can also output them in electronic versions in color. This would be a much better way to show the increase as trying to compare numbers and slopes is difficult. A color scan of the printouts would also be helful.

The improvement numbers you mention are peak values and each appear at a different RPMs - the first thing that jumps out is at 3.8 RPM where one scan shows over a 25pt increase Then the downslope of the one with the intake is more severe.

Also, if this is the direct injection 3.5, the numbers will be noticeably different as your engine handles air and fuel differently.

Jay, Alpine designed their SC system to be CARB legal in all 50 states and the ONLY way to do that is to use the stock airbox. It is common knowledge in performance circles that increasing breathing (intake AND exhaust) is always a benefit and even moreso in SC'd or Turbo'd applications.

[jayfotos]

I hear ya Tone, but just seems after I got my intake installed and posted dyno results(before and after) people here scratched their heads and are sold.....am I the first to do this?

I mean, I'm fairly new to the board and posting this info I thought would be old news or common knowledge...I thought.

When going threw all the question asking part of purchasing my SC(believe me, there was a lot).....NO ONE....I'll say that again.....NO ONE, said anything about geting a new intake.

If anyone asked me now I would not promote a SC with out it....it's like peanut butter and jelly.....cookies and milk.;)

[Jolly Roger VX'er]

Originally posted by SlowPro48
Just out of curiosity, do you find that the s/c helps quiet the intake? It seems like it would since you've got those rotors between the valves and your ears - as opposed to open intake on an atmospheric engine where it's a straight shot from the valves thru the throttle body and intake to your ears.

The only way I can describe it is:

The Supercharger produces a cool "whine" when boost is coming on and this is followed quickly by the CF-intake making what reminds me of the sound a 4 bbl. carb makes when the you open her up!

If you drive her normally, you don't hear any whining from the SC (only me....dope :homer: !) and only a little bit of air flow in the intake as you give it gas. At a steady speed it really sounds stock. At idle you can hear the SC (I am assuming it is quieter with the new nosecone design...but, I've never heard one before! I actually like the sound of mine at idle!!)

[morgan-tec]

Tone,
These #s are from my 2003 Axiom with the same engine you have except that i have drive by wire electronic throttle and you guys have a throttle cable. The direct injection engines came out in 04'

[WyrreJ]

Photoshop is phun - overlay of the two dyno runs. Red is new, black is old.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/515/339morgantechdynocomparo.png

[morgan-tec]

Thanks man that is awsome, hope you dont mind but i copied it for my files as well.

[WyrreJ]

You are welcome, and welcome to copy it as much as you want. It didn't require any creative work - just mechanical use of the tools in photoshop. But even if it had been something creative, I would not have posted it if I did not want to share it with anyone who wanted a copy. Information wants to be free, I don't believe in standing in its way.

[transio]

Originally posted by morgan-tec
My name is Mike and i build the Morgan-tec intakes a bunch of people on here have. Just got mine installed: http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5217

[SlowPro48]

What is that? Torque or HP? That's a wacky looking curve whatever it is. With all those ripples it looks like a bike with a worn-out chain...

[MZ-N10]

Originally posted by marximus
that would be great! let me know how it goes.

sorry it took so long...i havent been able to use my computer for a while....(did somethign stupid and broke a peice off my video card) anyways i took the pictures of wat it looks like....

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/624p1010071.jpg

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/624p1010072.jpg

its rite next to the intake box on the right if u look at the car from the front...
________
WEB SHOWS (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

[I_Wanna_Retire]

Tone, do you still plan to post pictures/details of the filters you were working on?

'Will post a complete review and pics next week of all the cool potential VX things and more!'

I still have money I have not spent yet :)

[Tone]

Finally heard back from Green on their cone filter (cleans to 5 micron, not 20!) In the universal cold airbox but they want $225 dealer on it (add 25% for CF) - I’m ordering one next week for testing. The CF tube guy has NOT gotten back to me so I will need to follow up with him - these filters and intakes will be available for stock and supercharged engines.

[Jolly Roger VX'er]

I thought this was interesting..although there is no direct fit kit:

http://www.pipercross.net/viper_product.asp

[WormGod]

Interesting that this post came back.... but, I got my hands on a universal "ram air" assembly and thought I would net that out and give it a try. Looking for a better way to pound some air into the airbox. I do too much beach driving to have the cold air intake anymore, and when I did take the VX to the beach, it never failed to have the check engine light flash on. Saltwater? I dunno. Dont care. Didnt come on when I went back to the airbox. Anyways, this got me thinking about fabbing a ram air to the existing airbox. I have the goods, just need to do it. This one will allow induction through the front cladding. REALLY looking forward to a weather warm up here.

Thought about fabbing the one years ago from a ram air scoop on the hood, but there simply wasnt any room for ducting between the hood and the engine. ISUZU really didnt leave us with a lot of room to play with. :(