Official Isuzu window fix!

[SGT.BATGUANO]

See the ITS 2002 CD. The pics will be pulled from my gallery soon; for the time being. I don't think it's the proper fix anyway.

[Tone]

How about converting to a pdf and you can upload that to .info. I can also host the CD on my site if you like.

[Moncha]

Do it up and I'll host it in the downloads section with links to the appropriate places

[SGT.BATGUANO]

Give me till this weekend and I'll try doing both. Lots of "secret" info on the cd, but not a whole lot on the vx. I haven't seen any other copies of this cd since I got this one.

Pretty damning evidence, wouldn't you agree?

[thebear54]

Damn right Sarge.....
A lot of us with that "no problem" :eek: would certainly appreciate seeing this info up on the VehiCROSS.info site.
Does this follow the old "open mouth...insert foot theory"?
Keep on trukin'...John

[GoIsuzu]

See my gallery for screenshots from the ITS 2002 CD. I hit my limit of 5 pics, so I'll post the 6th tomorrow.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showgallery.php?mcats=all&si=&what=allfields&name=sgt.batguano&when=&whenterm=

Ah ha. Hadn't even started on the ITS CDs. Those are for the boys back in service to play with.

[GoIsuzu]

How about converting to a pdf and you can upload that to .info. I can also host the CD on my site if you like.

Just a warning: be careful. Isuzu IEPs, ITS archives, EPCs and the like are all copyrighted, usually by Isuzu as well as a third-party (Automotive Systems, Inc for EPCs for example). If someone decides to ruffle Isuzu corporate's hair with the VX window problem and points them to their own material hosted here or wherever, I'd be willing to bet that someone, somewhere will be receiving a cease and desist letter at the very least.

[Flyingarmy]

Just a warning: be careful. Isuzu IEPs, ITS archives, EPCs and the like are all copyrighted, usually by Isuzu as well as a third-party (Automotive Systems, Inc for EPCs for example). If someone decides to ruffle Isuzu corporate's hair with the VX window problem and points them to their own material hosted here or wherever, I'd be willing to bet that someone, somewhere will be receiving a cease and desist letter at the very least.

If they did that for every little thing posted on the internet, they would be some busy people. As long as it's not for profit, just informational I am sure there will be no issue. IMHO!

[Maugan_VX]

Not when it starts costing them money in warranty repair work.

However, I am convinced that this is a problem, and hope that it is distributed and waved in the face of any service manager that says "not my problem"

[Dallas4u]

Hey Don (GoIsuzu), since you are an Isuzu dealer (owner?), and you can offically (legally) have access to this and other copyrighted CD's, maybe you can help out with the issue?

[nater]

If you want to post it here, "fair use" for copyright law likely applies.

To comply with this, only post what is relevant (about the window problem)
and (I kid you not) you must have an Analog step in the copying process. Printing and scanning the document back in would work, as well as taking a photo of the monitor with a digital camera.

I know this sounds really weird, but the Digital Millenium Copyright Act has no "fair use" provision. (That is, digital copying is not allowed, even for fair use).

Fair use laws do apply for anything analog, like photocopying and photography.

Nate

[GoIsuzu]

I'm not sure I'd be able to help with something like this. Even though I'm authorized to purchase stuff like the parts catalogs, ITCS software, internal tech bulletins and whatnot I'm bound by the copyright/reproduction restrictions that come with such stuff.


Hey Don (GoIsuzu), since you are an Isuzu dealer (owner?), and you can offically (legally) have access to this and other copyrighted CD's, maybe you can help out with the issue?

[Moncha]

We definately DO NOT want to put anyone in jeopardy. Sarge, can print, scan and put back in to .pdf and actually, I'll take this offline with you for everybody's sake. I've had some cease and disist letters before and hate to do the battle. Let's keep this thread to the minimum and when we get it ready, we'll post what we need and do it correctly.

[VX4EJR]

I thought I'd chime in here and offer this long shot of input. The windows on my 01 VX have not necessarily failed but on just a few occasions have slightly slowed going up, more during colder weather though. I have lubed up the tracks which always does the trick making them move nice and good, just a pain in the a## to have to keep doing that every so often. But, seeing that Isuzu may have known of this original design problem, despite dealers and the like denying its existence, I wonder if Isuzu made this "window channel" correction somewhere after production on any vehicles before releasing them to the public. Probably more so on the 2001's perhaps?

The reason I bring this up is because on my VX, at only 25K, I have noticed on both door panels right near where the door lock knob is, are these small cracks or splits in the plastic forming at that upper edge. As if the window itself was pushing on the door panel causing this very point near the lock knob to slowly split. It just seemed too ironic that both door panels have this same exact crack or split in the same exact location and I can't figure any other reason for it other than pressure from the windows on the panels, perhaps from Isuzu adjusting something inside so they do go up and down correctly.

Anyone else have this or am I crazy?
:confused:

[Moncha]

Does your VX sit in the sun? I don't have the cracks but Moncha is a 2k with 30k on it and the passenger window has had a problem 1 or 2 times.. I keep the window tracks lubed up very well too. Out side of the obvious changes in design, wheels, climate control etc., I don't think there was any kind of structural changes.

[VX4EJR]

Does your VX sit in the sun?


Nope, very rarely in the sun. I actually went into an Isuzu dealer and complained about the cracks. They offered to replace both the door panels under what was left of my warranty, but just the outer plastic panels and not any of the other things on or inside it. They would have to take off all the rubber, any inserts and other adhesive bits and pieces on my old doors and put them on the new ones, I said no thanks. Rather deal with the cracks then them messing around trying to piece together both door panels. Oh well to that.

Here's a pic of the crack:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/68VX_Driver_Door_Panel_Crack.JPG

[SkidPlate]

I have the exact same crack on my passenger door panel. Drivers side has absolutly nothing.

Maybe because I never slam my door, but others slam my passenger door? (Man is that annoying)

I have a `99 with 60k.

By the way, I've had the window problem only on my dirvers side in the past, but I can see that both windows are loose. I plan to fix them soon, for now I just hold the window to the rear while closing it, the window moves much faster pushed to the rear.

[CSTYLES]

after the dealer "fixed" my windows, I noticed the end piece on the rubber weather strip missing (visible in picture, above yellow circle).
I also had problems with my door locks and the replacement lock button is discolored (grey is some spots).
These little cosmetic imperfections totally irk me when no-one else seems to notice.

Oh, and I second the door slamming. At one point I removed the back seat so I wouldn't have to hear people complain about getting in and out. Then I locked the passendger window, after my brother let the window go up completely outside the track. AND he knew about the window problem. Any idea how to idiot proof the door to keep people from slamming it?

[Moncha]

Any idea how to idiot proof the door to keep people from slamming it?


Do like me and don't let anyone ride! :bwgy:

[WyrreJ]

I know this sounds really weird, but the Digital Millenium Copyright Act has no "fair use" provision. (That is, digital copying is not allowed, even for fair use).

You know that game, "telephone" where a bunch of kids stand in a line and the first kid whispers a message to the second kid who then passes it on to the third kid and so on until finally the last kid gets the message, except when the last kid compares the message he heard with the sentence the first kid started with they aren't anywhere near the same meaning? I'm probably the closest thing to a copyright guru that this board has (I've actually read most of title 17, including the DMCA) and, no offense intended, but it sounds like you've been getting your copyright info via "telephone."

Here's the deal - the DMCA makes it a felony to circumvent a digital copy-prevention mechanism (like say the pathetically weak encryption on a DVD) - note that it is the circumvention, not the copying that has been criminalized here. Fair use is a specific term that refers to a defense against prosecution for copyright infringement. Note that fair use only applies to making copies. Thus the DMCA is an end-run around the fair use defense because circumventing a copy-prevention system is not copyright infringement so fair use is not a valid defense against prosecution. Neat little trick our friends in the copyright cartel came up with. It has yet to be challenged in court (the cartel is rightly afraid that they will lose that suit, so they haven't pushed it yet).

The copyright cartel is scared stiff about the "analog hole" which refers to the fact that no digital copy-prevention mechanism can prevent you from video-taping your tv or plugging the line-out from your SACD player into your computer to make an "unlocked" recording. But, the idea that going through an analog stage somehow enables the fair use defense is just not applicable, and certainly not in the law anywhere.

However, fair use is likely to be a defense against any prosecution for copyright infringement in this case. Here is what the the law says (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107) about determining if fair use is a valid defense:


the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
the nature of the copyrighted work;
the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.


In this situation:

the purpose and character of the use of the copy is non-commercial, non-profit consumer-rights education.
the nature of the work is not really an issue either way here
the amount posted would only be the portion relevant to the window-binding and not the entire CD
posting the information will have zero effect on the value of and market for the CD since the primary use of the disc is "internal" to isuzu and its dealers and not generally sold to the public


Remember though, fair use is a defense, as used in court. Any butthead with a typewriter and a stamp can send you a "cease and desist" letter, and any butthead with the bucks for a filing fee can sue you in court too. Intimidation through barratry, although illegal, is also a favorite tool of corporations who want to shut someone up. Would Isuzu do that? I dunno, I'm not even a lawyer much less a corporate multinational attorney.

[SGT.BATGUANO]

I don't see any copyright, copying restrictions or eula's on the disc.

I'm wondering which is worse, distributing all the info on this cd or the fact that Isuzu of America withheld this info from countless consumers. They gave the info to their techs for a reason, what was it?, a possible manufacturing defect?

I wonder how well a class action would fare from all the vx owners who ever had to pay for window repairs?

I also wonder how Japan Isuzu dealers handled window repairs and what Isuzu Japan's official stance on the issue is?

If Isuzu Japan knew how the U.S. counterpart was handling this and other customer service issues, they wouln't have to look too hard to find out why their sales went down the tubes.

[SGT.BATGUANO]

UPDATE:

I'm going to follow the numerous suggestions regarding compliance. This means the pics will be coming down soon; for the time being. I don't think it's the proper fix anyway. The point is that they knew/know about the problem/ defect and hid it from consumers.

[ISCE]

...The reason I bring this up is because on my VX, at only 25K, I have noticed on both door panels right near where the door lock knob is, are these small cracks or splits in the plastic forming at that upper edge. As if the window itself was pushing on the door panel causing this very point near the lock knob to slowly split. It just seemed too ironic that both door panels have this same exact crack or split in the same exact location and I can't figure any other reason for it other than pressure from the windows on the panels, perhaps from Isuzu adjusting something inside so they do go up and down correctly.

I have this also on my passenger side, but I don't think it is related to the window binding. I would assume since I don't have my windows tinted that probably the sun dried and cracked it. I have some issues with my driver's side window, but haven't had much with my passenger yet. I also have a 01, and only 19K miles :-)

[WormGod]

UPDATE:

I'm going to follow the numerous suggestions regarding compliance. This means the pics will be coming down soon; for the time being. I don't think it's the proper fix anyway. The point is that they knew/know about the problem/ defect and hid it from consumers.

Call your local news channel and report it. They have consumer divisions that look onto this for you and may even air a story on tv about it. That usually gets things happening. I know here in DC, there is one particular woman who does a nightly consumer spot where she actually reads letters and such by folks with these exact situations and she has her department dig into it. Always a happy ending it seems.

Just an idea to get free grunt work done.

[nater]

Wyrrej,

I'll concede that my interpretation is pieced together from bits here and there rather than a legal analysis of copyright law.

However, I had indeed read first hand, in 1998, text stricken from copyright law allowing fair use when copying from digital a medium. I'll see if I can find it. It was a document that had lines stricken through the text, rather than deleted.

As I now search for "fair use" in the DMCA, I am uncertain what the text on page 4 means. It seems to say that the act of circumventing copy protection may actually be allowed for fair use!

A direct quote from page 4:
"Since copying of a work may be a fair use under appropriate circumstances, section 1201 does not prohibit the act of circumventing a technological measure that prevents copying."

http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

Anyway, it's my understanding that the DMCA does not apply to analog copying. Perhaps this is naive? Typically, in the old days, the photo copier was okay for research at the library, VHS was okay to record video off of the TV, and film cameras were okay at museums, presumably under the concept of "fair use."

It's true anyone can sue anyone for anything. Did you hear about the little old lady who sued the neighbor girls for leaving cookies on her doorstep and scaring her? It just happened here in Colorado! She won almost $1000! (I think it sets a good precedent, too, because I would hate to live in a world where children bring cookies to little old ladies without warning!)

Anyway, point taken about the "telephone" problem. The DMCA is thoroughly confusing and is being used to abuse people around the world:

http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/

Nate

[WyrreJ]

Yes, my simplification was a little misleading, and even this response will be too. Thank the lawyers for generations of building their own job security into the statutes.

The key is that, really for the first time, there is a differentiation between access and reproduction. They are saying that fair use can allow you to circumvent a system the prevents reproduction, but it does not all you to access (decrypted) the information. So, you are probably protected by fair use when copying a DVD as a backup. But you are not OK in decrypting the contents of the DVD for you to access the actual data.

So, when they say that they are allowing circumvention for copying because of fair use, it is a red herring. Fair use covers a whole lot more than just making a bit-perfect duplicate - more often it includes using some transformative version like an excerpt or transcoding to a new format for research, commentary and educational purposes, among many others. But if you can't decrypt it to get at the pieces you need to work with because of the access controls, fair use is effectively nulled. And of course, don't forget that while circumvention may be legal in certain cases, tools that are designed to enable either kind of circumventation are effectively illegal to create or sell. Which makes it real hard to legally exercise your right of fair use.

[mrlegoman]

Subscribing to thread.
Passenger window does not work. Already paid a shop to fix it and it's still broke.
Would like a fix.

[Moncha]

There is still this FIX (http://www.vehicross.info/modules.php?name=Content&file=viewarticle&id=3)

[IsuzuVXFan]

A "tip of the hat" to Moncha for this fix thread. I worked perfect and in less than 30 minutes. Great pictures and thanks for the mention of being careful about damaging the outside skin. By having thought about it in advance, it was never an issue. Also, the bending of the bracket about a 1/2 inch made much more of a difference than the widening of the track.

For what its worth, I just bought my VX and when I talked to the local Isuzu dealer, the tech looked up the VX's records and mentioned that the window seal was recently replaced by the dealer under warranty. Clearly that fix didn't do the trick, but Moncha's sure did! One can only wonder how much I saved (out of pocket dollars for service, frustration when it didn't work properly, etc.) with your help.

Thanks again. You guys rock!

[thebear54]

Scott,
That "fix" is just what I need. My driver's window is doing just what you described. Guess where Iwill be this weekend? :p
You are the man!
John

[Moncha]

Not me, I just reposted it for phines (http://www.vehicross.info/forums/member.php?u=10),he's the one who did all the hard work..

[thebear54]

Ok...Thanks phines we will all appreciate it.
But Scott you are still the one who brings us all these goodies. Big thumbs up!
John

[iliri]

Mocha, I need my window fixed. Tell me what do I have to do according to isuzu( what SGT.BATGUANO posted) Please let me know where can I find this?

[Moncha]

Sgt, hasn't given me the files yet. I'll get with him. Let you know.

[Jason]

Since its been 5 months since the last reply, I'm wondering if there's been any movement on the dealership front? My '01 with 40k miles has developed the window issue on the passenger side. I have an extended warranty, but don't know if it will cover the window. Looking for any advice or amo before I head to the dealer.

[Numba1goalie]

No info yet on what "dealer recomends"?