E85 in the VX? Trooper? Rodeo? Axiom? [Text View]

nater

03/17/2005, 01:46 PM

Has anyone dared to put a tank (or half a tankful) of E85 into their vehicle to see how well it ran?

(E85 = fuel that is 85% ethanol, 15% gasoline)

I know officially the vehicle only supports E10 (10% Ethanol, 90% gasoline) but I have heard success stories from other folks running E85 (not Isuzu) once the Engine Computer adjusts to it.

(I'm talking about vehicles NOT approved by the manufacturer for E85).

So, has anybody tried it in their Isuzu? Know of any issues?

Nate

Joe_Black

03/17/2005, 02:19 PM

E85 is a very different fuel from ~10% blends and requires a number of modifications. If you were going to convert you might as well go 100% ethanol, since it's about that much of a change. You'd be looking at mostly the fuel delivery system, all Viton o-rings and seals, higher-flow injectors, all stainless fuel rail and possibly ECU programming.

I've looked extensivley into a 100% ethanol conversion on one of my VX's or XR4Ti's, but can't start until our new home is built which will give me the room to setup for ethanol production.

Here's a good page with a lot of ethanol and E85 info: http://journeytoforever.org/

Moncha

03/17/2005, 06:09 PM

Joe's gonna start a still!!!

Joe_Black

03/17/2005, 07:45 PM

Joe's gonna start a still!!!
LOL! Believe it or not, the Federal permit I'm getting is about $35 (IIRC) and allows me to produce up to 10,000 gallons of 190 proof ethanol per year. You can get permitted to produce up to 500,000 a year, but the inspection requirements are significantly more stringent. Since I currently use between 45 and 70 gallons of gasoline a month now, 10,000 a year should do fine. Due to energy density differences between gasoline and ethanol usage for a 100% ethanol vehicle is about 15 - 25% more by volume. But considering how clean it is to produce and use, couple with a total production cost of about $.60 a gallon after tax credits, the increased consumption still beats gasoline and diesel hands down.

ATF Fuel Producer Permit (http://www.ttb.gov/forms/pdfs/f510074.pdf)

The best thing about the ethanol is that when stored properly it doesn't go bad like gasoline or diesel. You just need to be mindful it doesn't absorb a lot of moisture (water) which lowers its proof. Then again, if you get water in the fuel system is has absolutely no ill effect on how the engine runs. :)

It just boggles the mind that the entire world could run without gasoline and hardly anyone knows or is willing to do anything about it. :confused:

TEN36VX

05/04/2005, 02:32 AM

Just curious on what you think the total estimated cost of the conversion would be...

cascabel3

05/04/2005, 03:29 PM

Just curious as to how you will produce the ethanol :confused:

Spike

05/04/2005, 04:53 PM

Well if it doesnt work out, you can always take the left over and corner the market in Limoncello and other infused spirit cordials...

:homer: :clap:

thedutchguy

06/09/2005, 12:18 PM

Well joe, forget the replacing al the seals bit, cause all seals worldwide have been modified when leadfree came on the market and these will do just fine, all vehicles after 1993 that is, so one excuse less not try it! :p

kpaske

06/09/2005, 09:39 PM

That's gonna have to be your next HowTo, Joe_Black! If you're the pioneer, I might just take the plunge also. Yeah, that's right... I'll be living in my geodesic dome, with solar and wind power, driving my ethanol vehicle... I'll be like a Joe_Black clone! hahaha

Joe_Black

06/10/2005, 08:54 AM

LOL! Well, now that I've finally got my crane I can get started on construction which means everything else will start falling into place. Although I'll more than likely convert one of the Merkurs to 100% ethanol first and use it for the daily driver to verify everything before tackling the VX.

V-Twin hiCROSS

06/10/2005, 09:03 AM

Is this really a viable option?? Do you know anyone who is doing this now? I would love to see one of these vahicles and/or distilleries in operation. You have definitely gotme interested now. Come on, give us some good, hard first hand evidence that this might be realistic in the next few years. $450 a month in gas is killing me. Yes, I drive alot.

Thanks,
Neal

thedutchguy

06/10/2005, 11:11 AM

The way gas prices are rising here in the Netherlands, I guess
it won't be long before everyone is back on foot again. :yesy:

transio

06/10/2005, 11:35 AM

How does ethanol affect performance? :)

thedutchguy

06/11/2005, 12:08 AM

hey man, you guys got indy cars runnin' on that stuf. :p

VCrossfan

09/01/2005, 10:14 PM

The Vehicles so far....

Vehicle List..Click.. (http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php)

Isuzu's only entry...

Click Me... (http://www.e85fuel.com/information/isuzu.php)

Polie

04/13/2012, 02:13 AM

Sorry to dig up a 7 year old thread, but I searched!!!!

Anyways I was thinking of trying 1/3 of a tank after reading this:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091229145952AAdI3ge

Found it at $3.17 vs $3.76

89Vette

04/13/2012, 10:44 AM

From the Corvette Forum, here's a thread that might answer some related gas vs. ethanol questions.

Post #22 on the 2nd page is the most informative.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-tech-performance/3020105-93-octane-e10-vs-100-91-octane-gasoline-2.html

(FWIW, I also noticed recently that E15 has been approved. Said you can only use it in 2001 and greater automobiles because the fuel systems were mandated by then. This doesn't jive with the 1993 comment.)

Chopper

04/14/2012, 08:55 AM

burning alcohol is an easier conversion in older, carburated engines....
I'd be real iffy about E85 in the Isuzu. It requires changing seals and lines and a bunch of crap. It can be done
LP gas conversions were real popular back when too. LP is clean, cheap, American, cheap, and plentiful. I've just never seen it done on anything newer than a MGB.
Brits even ran on a type of Bar-B-Q fumes during the war. Saw one of those at Amelia Island a few years back

89Vette

04/14/2012, 09:51 AM

burning alcohol is an easier conversion in older, carburated engines....
I'd be real iffy about E85 in the Isuzu.

No way I've got great knowledge of this forum yet, but I do try my share of searches on a given topic. FWIW, I have done one on tuning the Vehicross and I haven't found threads where it looks like people have successfully accomplished it.

Until that happens (or unless I missed it), Chopper's statement may have some truth in the VX community. Beyond that, many people have done their own programming for an E85 conversion...especially in the FORD/GM circles. That's because E85 makes more power (and uses more fuel).

I'll be interested in this project for the success/failure of the ECU programming....hoping that OEM unit is successfully reprogrammed vs getting replaced.

Polie

04/14/2012, 11:33 AM

there are lost of dual fuel, LP and petrol down here in PHX. The only thing I could see would be needing to add MMO to the fuel for e85. (Marvels Mystery Oil)

89Vette

04/14/2012, 03:45 PM

there are lost of dual fuel, LP and petrol down here in PHX. The only thing I could see would be needing to add MMO to the fuel for e85. (Marvels Mystery Oil)

WTH? You're smoking what again?

Polie

04/14/2012, 04:32 PM

Summer yea dude not really a new concept. Almost all the phx metro work trucks are dual fuel and you can have your car/truck modified as well for $5-$7k. No yearly tags, perm hov privileges, no emissions, and super cheap fuel.

Immortal with the e85 to help lubricate the pump, upper topend, and keeps the fuel lines healthy with running that much alcohol. I had to use it with all of my classic cars including my cherry 68 beetle.

twalker920

04/14/2012, 06:13 PM

You're going to need a bigger gas tank because your mpg is going to take a huge hit. Aside from any other programming, sealing, whatever, you might need to do, on our VXs a hit in mileage is not something to look forward to.

Whatever range you get out of a tank now in your VX, figure 70% of that on E85. E85 has 33% less energy per unit volume than pure gasoline.

http://www.epiphergy.com/uploads/E85_and_Fuel_Efficiency_round_2_web.pdf

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/e85-vs-gasoline-comparison-test.html

Plus the fact that until all E85 is made from non-food-grade sources (such as "switchgrass") it hurts the economy when farmers grow corn for fuel instead of food. Right now it is mostly made from corn, with some food crop waste (rice husks, corn husks) being used. No large volume non-food sources are economically up to speed yet.

And if you're planning on making and storing your own E85, be aware of the emissions the stuff has while in storage, and how to store it safely. I am a Mechanical Engineer in the oil and gas engineering business (I know - the bad guys, I'm sorry), and we had one client that was switching a fleet vehicle tank farm from gasoline to E85, and had to spend many thousands of dollars modifying the tanks to safely store the E85.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here.

tysamigo

04/14/2012, 07:50 PM

Soooooo.... theoretically.... how much would an E85 or full ethanol conversion cost?

Polie

04/15/2012, 12:15 AM

Soooooo.... theoretically.... how much would an E85 or full ethanol conversion cost?

fuel lines and keep a spare fuel pump.

89Vette

04/15/2012, 12:22 AM

Summer yea dude not really a new concept. Almost all the phx metro work trucks are dual fuel and you can have your car/truck modified as well for $5-$7k.

That's a whole lot different that adding MMO to make it work. Sometimes, it helps to splain a few things dude.

To take real advantage, rebuilding the engine and raising the compression should be added to the cost. At least it would generate more power than stock.

Polie

04/15/2012, 12:42 AM

That's a whole lot different that adding MMO to make it work. Sometimes, it helps to splain a few things dude.

To take real advantage, rebuilding the engine and raising the compression should be added to the cost. At least it would generate more power than stock.

Ok dude, its easy you just add 1/4c to gas tank before you fill up with e85.

Why would you need to raise compression with a rebuild, then you would not have the ability to use both petrol/e85 and LP? The computer is flashed to advance the timing when you do use LP for a much more efficient burn. Sure you lose 5% power but you gain soooo much more with LP.

Thanks dude, have a good one dude, and google is your friend dude.

EDIT Dude:

Heres used trucks for reference.

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/cto/2957119736.html

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/2956847771.html

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/cto/2909516376.html

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/cto/2947382714.html

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/cto/2892440674.html

Now back on topic to e85.................dude

89Vette

04/15/2012, 09:37 AM

Ok dude, its easy you just add 1/4c to gas tank before you fill up with e85.

Your posts on E85 are the biggest bunch of dribble I've seen. MMO is not the only thing necessary for an E85 conversion. Craigslist ads for propane-friendly trucks are even worse as support of this MMO B.S. That's right....B.S.

Use of dude doesn't help your case either. Makes you sound like a teen who wears pants too low. Are you a teen?

In the vette forum, they'd label you as a troll. I'm guessing you have no idea about the limits of non-flex-fuel ECU fuel management limitations.

Polie

04/15/2012, 11:32 PM

Well, that is the topic, dude. Dude, what is the deal with all the dudes, dude? I'd be really surprised, dude, if 1/4c of MMO is the only thing you need to do to get VX's to run on E85, dude. And,dude, I don't mean barely run either dude. I'd be willing to bet money on this dude. I'd be willing to call "B.S." on your MMO post above, dude. Oh yeah, I did dude. And, a bunch of links to propane-burning trucks has nothing to do with your response, dude. But, you already know that, dude. You're the master of the obvious, dude.

Dude, use your search to point to the topic of this thread, dude. E85 in VX's dude. Haven't seen them mentioned in here before, Dude. Haven't even seen anyone successfully reflash the VX ECU either, dude. And, dude, to learn that, I used search of this forum, dude.

Now I get it, dude! If you think someone is obnoxious, just use dude all the time. It's condescending!

OTOH, some people like to share how to do things -- as they've learned to do them on their own, dude. Others, just dribble on and on, dude.

Actually I was not being condescending, you just took it that way first off. Quite being a jackass. I way over used dude because I took you comet as being condensing, so go ***** yourself.

The reason I suggested Marvels was for the lubrication properties and to help prevent drying out fuel lines that may not have been designed for that much alcohol. Try talking to older gearheads or the thousands of VW owners that use the stuff to keep our stock fuel line and rubber in the stock fuel pumps that where not designed to run on ever 10% from drying and breaking apart.

Again, as per-another website.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061

And I believe this is the correct kit:

http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Detail?no=118

EDIT: For what its worth, you did start the douche baggery with this post:

WTH? You're smoking what again?

Moncha

04/16/2012, 04:58 PM

Ok, ok.... Agree to disagree and knock it off.

Ldub

04/16/2012, 05:07 PM

Ok, ok.... Agree to disagree and knock it off.

Anyone starting to notice a pattern here...:confused:...:laughing:

Polie

04/16/2012, 05:10 PM

Anyone starting to notice a pattern here...:confused:...:laughing:

That Corvette owners tend to be wanna be alpha males over compensating for something? Lol

Osteomata

04/16/2012, 06:43 PM

I'm sensing the possible approach of The Loving Mallet of Correction.

kehecross

04/16/2012, 07:20 PM

That Corvette owners tend to be wanna be alpha males over compensating for something? Lol

Yeah whats up with all this VETTE talk? I thought this was a VX site. Maybe he should stay on that VETTE site and dribble his B.S. there!!! Seems this guy can't get along with anyone.:mady: Sorry I just c:bwgy:uldn't help myself.

Polie

04/16/2012, 07:42 PM

89Vette

04/16/2012, 07:59 PM

Yeah whats up with all this VETTE talk? I thought this was a VX site. Maybe he should stay on that VETTE site and dribble his B.S. there!!! Seems this guy can't get along with anyone.:mady: Sorry I just c:bwgy:uldn't help myself.

I guess you can't read.

A) I don't care for LDub's attitude. (If you could read you'd have noticed it.)
B) This Polie guy was trying to get people to run E85 with a cup of oil in the gas tank. If you prefer to try it and not have people point out deliberately misleading information, I'll stop pointing out dribble when I see it. Please try this MMO oil trick in YOUR VX!!!
C) I have a VX in addition to my vette. My posts are never about my vette. Again, you can't read.

Polie: The only thing I'm over-correcting is your inability to clearly communicate the facts about E85 use in a VX. It's NOT the same as your beetle. Oh wait! Where's the snide comments about Beetle-talk?

LDub: You already know what I think about your attitude. You're obviously still crying and want to vent.

Ldub

04/16/2012, 08:15 PM

LDub: You already know what I think about your attitude. You're obviously still crying and want to vent.

Go tell Dad...:yesgray:

I only asked an interesting question, all the rest is a reflection of other peoples perception of you...:_confused

89Vette

04/16/2012, 08:39 PM

Go tell Dad...:yesgray:

I only asked an interesting question, all the rest is a reflection of other peoples perception of you...:_confused

Keep telling yourself you're funny. Maybe you'll find your way there some day "turd in the punchbowl man"

BTW...Since I'm 54 (and my dad, who is 87, went into the hospital with pheumonia today), I'll send him your best wishes.

89Vette

04/16/2012, 08:42 PM

I'm sensing the possible approach of The Loving Mallet of Correction.

Makes me wonder. After the moderator has spoken, people somehow felt the word of caution means nothing and went after me. I'm curious what he thinks about that.

kehecross

04/16/2012, 09:37 PM

I guess you can't read.

A) I don't care for LDub's attitude. (If you could read you'd have noticed it.)
B) This Polie guy was trying to get people to run E85 with a cup of oil in the gas tank. If you prefer to try it and not have people point out deliberately misleading information, I'll stop pointing out dribble when I see it. Please try this MMO oil trick in YOUR VX!!!
C) I have a VX in addition to my vette. My posts are never about my vette. Again, you can't read.

Polie: The only thing I'm over-correcting is your inability to clearly communicate the facts about E85 use in a VX. It's NOT the same as your beetle. Oh wait! Where's the snide comments about Beetle-talk?

LDub: You already know what I think about your attitude. You're obviously still crying and want to vent.

Oh I think I can read! I see (read) that like to Express your opinion about other people. And as far as Polie trying to get people to run mmo with E85. I belive he was going to try it himself. Let him do it, If it works, it works. If it does not work its his problem. WTH are you smoking! You have a VX and a Vette and you are only 54 years old Your kind of young to own a Vette?:laughing:

89Vette

04/16/2012, 11:29 PM

Oh I think I can read! I see (read)

Then, how did you construe this as some sort of vette debate? Then, how did you miss the fact my ONLY objection was to Polie saying MMO was the only modification necessary to run on E85? ? Then, how did you miss the back-peddling to a kit necessary for the conversion? Then, how did you miss the details of E85 (from expert "guest" in a mystery forum) saying how the motor will be running lean -- especially at high rpm? (Is that what you want to do with your "iffy" 6VE1 and it's possible ring issue)? Then, how did you miss I prefer people not try this on their own car?

If I posted somethiing incomplete like say..."The VX holds 3qts of oil."; you replied with WTH are you smoking?; I'd reply with a laugh and an apology.

That's the difference between us.

Review your own critique of me and see who's judgemental, bro...dude.

And, if bro/dude adds a bit of extra annoyance to my sentence, you're well on your way to learning full reading comprehension!

Good luck!
<peace>

BTW... I hope we hear good things about this conversion. It'll especially be noteable if provided with before/after dyno. AFRs would be nice to see as well -- especially if only using MMO.