Diesel Conversion

[JZeldorado]

i love the vx machine. i am going to buy a vx and change engine to a diesel. i have been researching the project only to find trooper swaps. i would like to keep the auto trans as they have there advantages. i would cchange to a standard if necessary. is there anyone out there who has done this, or knows someone who has, could they please have them contact me. in particular i need to know the distance from the transmission forward to the farthest point on the cooling fan in the gas model. in the trooper(there are diesels) changes had to be made front of the waterpump. any help, and direction will be rewarded. thanks JZeldorado.

[Maugan_VX]

the engine is the same as the trooper.

why would you want to convert to diesel?

buy a VX with a blown motor if you do that. Don't ruin a perfectly good engine.

[Joe_Black]

I'm planning on doing this with the two VX's we have and have been looking at the 3.0 and 3.1 intercooled turbo-diesels as used in domestic and European market Troopers. Pretty much a drop-in replacement, although the latest version of the 3.1 has an ECU which means some harness integration may be in order.

For tuning the diesels look at the Australian Trooper forums, they've been getting quite a bit out of these engines. Diesels have a tremendous capacity for power output and will run until they melt down. I seriously believe that the VX could turn quarter-mile times in the very low teens with diesel power. Not to mention Isuzu makes the worlds best diesels.

The best part is that we've begun putting together a biodiesel processor which means our net cost for fuel will be less than $1 a gallon for a domestic clean running fuel that's better for the engine, economy and environment.

What I've found so far is good, but pricey availability from the UK (mostly with 5-speed trannys) and have also been turned onto Poland as a better source. I'm also looking into a Jamaican Isuzu connection and hope to have more info over the next couple weeks. If I can get a good package price (engine + transmission) I'll share what I learn with the group. :)

[blacksambo]

While diesels offer so many great statistics (fuel economy, etc) what they seem to lack is a positive tactile senation and a genral lack positive throttle response. I was just in italy driving a very current diesel specimen, and every time I stomped on the accelerator it just left me feeling flat and unsatisfied. Until this "vagueness" type quirk is ironed out of all diesels, I think to do this type of to conversion to a VX would be an agregious crime against the intent of vehicle's original design purpose. Remember, the JDM's were only 3.2's versus the U.S.'s 3.5 to help enhance the gas-type of throttle resonse magic I just mentioned.

[raver_boi_88]

yeah but one of the fastest trucks in the world is a diesel, It can be made faster and more throttle response just from the switch of ecu's, it just depends on how much you want to spend...

[Joe_Black]

Americans in general have a very dim view of diesels as whole based mostly on sheer ignorance and ill-concieved bias. Your average citizen takes television as gospel, and last time I paused to consider the tube there wasn't anyone talking diesel. Many here are still smarting over GM's diesel-converted 305 that spontaneously self-destructed in many Oldsmobiles and the lackluster performance of miserly VW Rabbits sold en masse during the last fuel crunch.

Now, the Italian ride mentioned previously was almost certainly a normally aspirated economy car. So of course it left you feeling flat. I've got an '82 Mercedes 300D Turbo with a manual tranny and that thing scoots. And I haven't even turned up the injector pump yet, which would turn that 2-ton sled into an actual drag car. Diesels are amazing in that all you really need to do to get more performance out of them is get more fuel and air into the engine. That's it.

Diesel fuel also has benefits as there's more energy in a given volume of diesel than gasoline, one reason they typically get much better economy than gas vehicles. Throttle response has much to do with the configuration of the engine and vehicle as well. Turbo and supercharged engines drive much like a gas vehicle in responsiveness. My big International has a supercharged 2-cycle V8 and it responds VERY quickly! A friend has a new VW Golf TDI and the VX has a time keeping up with it, and it's not even tuned.

Now of course that kind of performance comes at the price of economy, much like any combustible-fueled vehicle. But the nice thing of a diesel is that if you don't drive it hard you keep almost all the original economy, which isn't typical of gasoline engines. And if you use B100 economy isn't as much an issue if you need the speed. You can then not only beat cars light-to-light, but also pump-to-pump. :p

[Maugan_VX]

Hey Joe,

Don't get me wrong here, if Isuzu made a diesel VX (for all I know, they did overseas, I have no clue) I'd considering trading-up. However, I just question the cost/benefit ratio of performing this aftermarket modification to a perfectly well-functioning VX.

How much is a new Isuzu diesel engine with a blower these days anyways? Can't be less than $5k....

[PeteVX]

This has been on my mind for some time too, i grew up in England, i reckon there are now more diesel cars there than gas, the europeans have invested heavily in developing diesel over the last decade, and it shows! All my family over there drive turbo diesels, they are quick, quiet have tons of torque and get great economy (they also dont have that wait for the glow plugs to heat annoyance anymore either), my dads Renault wagon gets 45 mpg and just flies along, oh and they usually run for 300,000 plus miles so long as you keep the oil clean.

Joe you sre so right that here in the US diesels have a bad name, noisy, smokey old tubs with the performance of a tractor! Sure diesels are not gas engines, they have very different charicteristics, but that doesnt make them bad, i love driving a diesel, specially a turbo. I dont see media influenced public opinion changing anytime soon either but that doesnt mean we cant take advantage.

We used to be able to get low milage used engines complete ready to drop in very cheap in the UK, they came from Japan i beleive where they used to scap cars after only a few years, something to do with very heavy registration taxes as a vehicle gets older or something like that.

Not sure of the federal mport restrictions on bringing a motor in, i know its not easy any more to bring whole vehicles, i just scraped by with a handbuilt motorcycye when i moved here 8 years ago but almost had to send it back again.

I'd be very interested in a turbo diesel conversion though if anyone figures out the logistics (too busy/lazy to do it myself, hey at least i'm honest!)

Pete

[Joe_Black]

Diesel engines and heavy trucks have been Isuzu's bread-n-butter business all along, they do cars and light-trucks as a secondary market. They're recognized world wide as making the best diesel engines on the planet. You can find them in everything from small reefer units, lift-trucks and power units on up to semi-trucks and heavy mining equipment.

As for importing a used (or new) engine it's pretty much just crate-n-ship. You can usually find at least one intercooled turbo-diesel from the late model Trooper on eBay at any given time. People that are re-selling them here are asking up to $4500 for a low mileage engine, usually the 4JG2TC model. But as I've been watching these for about 4 years I've learned it's more economical to import yourself, some I've seen just in the last few days for around $1000. The JDM engine market is commanding quite a premium, especially with the tuner and drift crowd, and that affects all imported engines.

The beauty of converting the VX is that since this is what the Trooper comes with overseas, all the mounts and such fit our chassis. Literally a plug-n-play installation, with the exception of the very latest diesel which is electronic. Isuzu is well know for their reluctance to re-engineer anything that works, so more than likely the harness could be easily integrated. Remember, the diesel Troopers came off the same assembly line but just received a different engine option and corresponding hood for the intercooler scoop. And the Trooper had the same 6VE1 3.5L engine as the VX. ;)

[Maugan_VX]

Joe,

Thanks for enlightening us (me).

At ~$1000 and "plug and play" functionality, whats the downside? Does that price include the ECU? Will it behave with TOD and the 4L30E like the 6VE1? What are the changes needed to the fuel delivery system? Exhaust? Are there any resources online that you'd recommend concerning diesel conversions in general?

what kind of emissions regulatory implications are there?

Curiosity is killing me.

[Joe_Black]

Joe,

Thanks for enlightening us (me).Well, I first got interested in doing this prior to getting a VX when I wanted to build an '89 Trooper RS into the ultimate road and trail rig. I had been reading a lot about the then-new 4BD2TC as used in the NPR medium duty trucks and that a few HD Troopers came with the same engine. So I got really interested in fitting an intercooled turbo-diesel powerhouse into an RS, complete with the big ole hood scoop.


At ~$1000 and "plug and play" functionality, whats the downside? Does that price include the ECU?From what I've learned only the very latest engine is (4JX1 IIRC) electronic with common-rail fuel delivery. All previous models are fully mechanical.


Will it behave with TOD and the 4L30E like the 6VE1?I'm pretty certain you'd have to baby it if retaining the 4L30E, but it may just survive normal driving as it's not that bad of a tranny. Just not well-suited for high-torque offroad use. I still haven't fully deciphered the connection between the TOD computer and the ECU, but know only minor changes were made to the rally VX's which had 5-speed manual transmissions. My hope is to confirm soon that the TOD transfer case will mate with the diesel auto and manual trannies.


What are the changes needed to the fuel delivery system?Diesels use a non-pressurized system with a vent and a return line. Our system is already plumbed and you'd need to just change the tank-mounted fuel pump.


Exhaust?A new exhaust would be needed from the manifold to the cat since it's an inline 4-cylinder and diesels use a different cat/particulate filter set-up. Everything after the cat would work fine as diesels are pretty flexible with exhaust and not as sensitive as gas engines.


Are there any resources online that you'd recommend concerning diesel conversions in general?I've found a lot of folk converting a variety of vehicles to diesel or US spec vehicles to domestic diesel spec, but nothing specific comes to mind. I'd just Yahoo! or Google "diesel conversion" and browse. There was a '98 Trooper on eBay twice recently that had a well done Mercedes OM617 conversion, and that is a potential back-up in the event Isuzu diesels proved too difficult to obtain.


what kind of emissions regulatory implications are there?That I'm not 100% sure of as Florida is pretty lax in that department and I haven't really looked at other states requirements. It shouldn't be too difficult to poke around your particular state's DMV or DOT web pages to glean any local emissions regulations.


Curiosity is killing me.Yeah, it's been getting me for years as I keep generating about 2 more questions for each answer I get. LOL! :p

[blacksambo]

While you can go on forever on the statistacal benefits of a diesel the sad fact remains that they can only "react" to the load they carry. In otherwords, "react" (and we all know reaction means time) versus a gas unit that responds purely to throttle input and in so doing provides more than instant torque, it almost anticipates the vehicles needs. And torque is the name of the game when it comes to cornering ability. Without instant torque you don't the power neccessary to preload the suspension and corner hard and decisively. Think about it for a minute... can you come up with the name of one racing organization, in a non-spec racing series, that perfers diesel technology over gas and wins? It's never going to happen race fans. The only race a diesel will ever win is one of load reaction and fuel efficiency. What do you want your VX to do, haul or handle? The choice is most certainly yours but its original designers, coming from a wealth of diesel-technology experience definitely chose the magic of instant throttle response and handling-optimizing torque versus load-sensitive reaction power.

[Joe_Black]

Think about it for a minute... can you come up with the name of one racing organization, in a non-spec racing series, that perfers diesel technology over gas and wins?
You bet! Check out some racing diesels...

Paris-Dakar Rally (http://www.dakar.com/indexus.html)

CAT Rally Power! (http://www.catrallypower.com)

SCCA Rally BioDiesel VW Golf TDI (http://www.speedarena.com/news/publish/features/printer_3876.shtml)

British Truck Racing Association (http://www.britishtruckracing.co.uk/)

FIA European Truck Racing Cup (http://www.truckracing.de)

Diesel Hot Rod Association (http://www.dhraonline.com/)

BMW X5 Bi-Turbo Diesel Rally Truck (http://www.bmwworld.com/racing/dakar/2004.htm)

Banks D-Max Road Racing Truck (http://www.diesel-smart.com/DmaxTypeR.cfm)

First Diesel Indy Car (http://americanhistory.si.edu/onthemove/collection/object_365.html)

And the list goes on! :) The proof of diesel performance is out there, and has been for almost a century in our desire to succeed and win where others have failed. And as far as diesels being "reactionary" you really should get some more hands-on experience. That kind of thinking and a run-away (diesel no-load) will get you into trouble. ;)

[ameetw]

Hi, I am also interested in the diesel conversion. I have another diesel truck a land cruiser using a 4.2 TD engine. There is a slight lag initially but catches up with the Vx and overtakes it. The truck is still tuned for soft driving, ie. no boosting nor playing with the fuel pump.
The plus side in Malaysia is that diesel is about 1.35 USD / Gallon. I'm currently discussing this conversion with a friend so far it seems promising. Trooper in Malaysia is the "Government Choice" vehicle. So Isuzu diesel engines are easy to find.

Ameet

[MZ-N10]

You bet! Check out some racing diesels...

Paris-Dakar Rally (http://www.dakar.com/indexus.html)

CAT Rally Power! (http://www.catrallypower.com)

SCCA Rally BioDiesel VW Golf TDI (http://www.speedarena.com/news/publish/features/printer_3876.shtml)

British Truck Racing Association (http://www.britishtruckracing.co.uk/)

FIA European Truck Racing Cup (http://www.truckracing.de)

Diesel Hot Rod Association (http://www.dhraonline.com/)

BMW X5 Bi-Turbo Diesel Rally Truck (http://www.bmwworld.com/racing/dakar/2004.htm)

Banks D-Max Road Racing Truck (http://www.diesel-smart.com/DmaxTypeR.cfm)

First Diesel Indy Car (http://americanhistory.si.edu/onthemove/collection/object_365.html)

And the list goes on! :) The proof of diesel performance is out there, and has been for almost a century in our desire to succeed and win where others have failed. And as far as diesels being "reactionary" you really should get some more hands-on experience. That kind of thinking and a run-away (diesel no-load) will get you into trouble. ;)


i didnt realize how many competition cars acutally use desiels....but i noticed tat none of those are road courses. other then 1930s indy car and the trucks.

but wat i think blacksambo was getting at was theres no desiel cars racing on tracks. atleast not desiel vs gasoline.

[blacksambo]

You've got that right! Where pure speed and high performance handling is concerned gas is the undisputed king. Remember VX fans, the raison d'etre for the VX was "torque on demand", not torque after it reacts to the load! Load handling driving is typically not concerned with performance cornering ability... there is no such spec at Caterpillar, its purely load reaction engineering for diesel success. Where diesels race its just a novelty, they are not setting any speed records on road courses. Believe me, if diesel was a viable road course option they would have tried in Formula 1 the pinnacle in motor sport a long time ago. Not even the Safety Car in Formula 1 is diesel, it would be deemed too dangerous to use such a load reaction vehicle in high speed pace work. Also, remember that the VX came equipped, stock, with license plate holders. In other words, it was designed first and foremost for highway or road course type use...off-road driving was secondary in the original designers' minds. It's a street machine that adapts (sports car first,truck second), not vice versa.

[Joe_Black]

:laughg: :laughy: :laughb: :laugho:

[moon buggy]

watching Foxtel hear locally, the 5th Gear program I saw today did a track comparison of the BMW Mini Cooper vs a Scoda VRS TDi...the TD won by 0.8 sec...even I was surprised, as the mini's 0-60mph was quicker and probably the Skoda would have got an even better time had it handled better...

here in Australia diesels are selling more every day all the big 4wd companies are selling heaps of diesels now more than ever with oil hovering at > $60US/barrell..V8s particularly guzzling models are heavily discounted $1000s just to move them, or come with a years supply of fuel for free ...

And as a driver of Turbo diesel 4wd [04 Disco 2 Td5] that achieves regularly 23mpg [Vx 15 - 16mpg] around town with regularly stomping on it in 'Sports" mode selected [hah!], it certainly doesn't have the poke of the VX [off the line - embarassing really], but once TD is past lag 0 - 1500rpm ...gallons of torque come on board...however it still does take a leisurely 17secs !!! to get 0 - 60mph, but timing it myself I reckon the first 5 - 6 secs is wasted then off she goes..on a trip ! well diesels come into their own where mine will get 1000kms to a tank if not more [90 litre]...with diesel becoming increasingly popular will make the manufacturers improve them more particularly if we end up paying European pricing for fuel, cars will need to be efficient..but they will need to be exciting as well [to sell them]...my excitement comes from driving past my wife at the petrol station filling the VX, but her smile is as she waits for me catch up at the next set of traffic lights... :rolleyes:

[blacksambo]

Thanks for the "Down Under" diesel perspective. Yes, diesels sure have their place, but to retro convert a VX would seem a shame. It's not that much different than the "debadging" that goes on with the VX's. It's just a shame, and once it's done it's mostly done for the whole life of the vehicle (they never get changed completely back). I've owned ancient Porsches and let me tell you, later on down the road people are most always sorry that any body ever modified any thing versus the "original" design. Especially, from a price valuation standpoint, originality is everything. But I realize that you sometimes can't live with driving just "originality" and the urge to change things dictates where you are going to take your vehicle...that's why they made chocolate and vanilla. You've got to have a choice...it is afterall the American way.

[PeteVX]

For me its primarily an economy thing, as a daily driver i would use my VX much more if i were getting better economy, i can allready hear someone saying that the extra 8 or 10 mpg would take a lifetime to recoup the minimum $2,500 plus its to cost to convert but i'm sure a good used 3.5 gas motor has to be worth $1,000 of anyones money? thus reducing the conversion cost.

And then there's the enviro friendly lentil sprout eating hippy feel good factor that you're being good to the planet. Whats that worth? Nothing to some people, everything to others. Crikey, i even re-cycle now (though i'm sure it all goes in the same landfill anyhow but it makes my girlfriend feel better which makes me feel better)

Its great that people want different things out of one vehicle and are able to do it. I once saw a Ferrari Testarossa with furry dice hanging from the rearview mirror, one guy looking at the car was getting quite upset about it, i thought it was absolutely hilarious !!

Pete

[Joe_Black]

I'm generally not into doing something to a production vehicle that can't be put back to original very easily. That's why I'm primarily researching the Isuzu diesel rather than some other make, like the Mercedes OM617. With a diesel from a late-model Trooper you would use existing mounts and most linkages. Basically, it's a plug-n-play swap. Down the road you decide to go back to gas you can just swap it back, provided you've kept the original engine.

But for those who have real-world diesel experience, once you make the change it makes little sense to go back. The increased performance and economy will just overide the programming we've received here in the US about gas engines. ;)

So far I've located 4 available engines and a few 5-speed transmissions, but am waiting for word back on a closer source for better pricing and an automatic. My wife's VX will likely get the auto while I'm getting jazzed for the 5-speed.

A local restaurant has contacted us about collecting their used oil and another friend who has a Golf TDI is interested in helping with biodiesel production, so we may end up with a collective effort. I recently picked up 12 55-gallon drums for collection and have just about everything else needed to start up, so am getting more and more excited about freeing myself from the grip of "big oil".

For the doubters, check out some of the crazy Finns and their hot-rod diesels...

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~hecekiel/dieselboost_demo.mpg

http://students.tukkk.fi/tuukka.simonen/Mersuvideot/kiikala.mpeg

http://students.tukkk.fi/tuukka.simonen/Mersuvideot/mersukiihytys.mpeg

http://students.tukkk.fi/tuukka.simonen/Mersuvideot/mersukiihytys2.mpeg

http://students.tukkk.fi/tuukka.simonen/Mersuvideot/std.wmv

http://students.tukkk.fi/tuukka.simonen/Mersuvideot/6677liukasta2.mpeg

http://www.kolumbus.fi/sallatoimi/ep/veto1.mpg


If after looking at some of these videos you don't think diesel=performance then don't drive too far, you might fall off the edge of the world. :p

[mbeach]

Joe,
You should contact the guys with the SCCA Rally BioDiesel VW Golf TDI. They are huge biodiesel nerds and were eager to share all of their knowledge.
I met them at the Columbus (Ohio) Auto Show a couple of years ago. They were super-excited about their car and had just come off a fairly successful season.
I got to really check out the car (which still had race grime all over it) and I believe that they gave me some freebies as well (soypower stickers and a Kumho lanyard).

[Joe_Black]

I linked an article on them a little earlier, neat story. We had a guy bring a Gof TDI out to a recent rallycross at my place and he gave a couple GTI's a serious run. It's a quick car and apparently Banks has some tuning items for it too.

I picked up a 1st-gen Toyota MR2 last month and am seriously thinking of putting the VW 1.9L TDI in it. It'd be a real screamer and would launch like a rocket! :eek:

[ameetw]

So far I've located 4 available engines and a few 5-speed transmissions, but am waiting for word back on a closer source for better pricing and an automatic. My wife's VX will likely get the auto while I'm getting jazzed for the 5-speed.

Could you tell me which engines are you looking at?

[Joe_Black]

I'm most interested in the 4JG2 intercooled turbo as used in Troopers and Rodeos through around model year 2000. The other diesel is the 4JX1 intercooled turbo, used in the latest Troopers, but since it's an ECU-controlled common-rail engine there isn't as much "shade-tree" tuning capability. I haven't gotten any solid info on the transmission models these engines use though.