Israel vs. Hezb'Allah

[transio]

Tough time to be Lebanese. I am Maronite Lebanese-American, and I am deeply saddened that my people are being unnecessarily persecuted in Israel's war on Islamic Jihad and Hezb'Allah.

What do the rest of the you think of the conflict?

[Joe_Black]

Wow Steve, really opening the flood gates eh? :p

Seriously though, that's a tough region for most to analyze without bias.

The gap between "nations" and "movements" is so great that neither can fight a conflict on anything near equal footing. All that's typically accomplished is the destruction of those caught in the middle.

[nfpgasmask]

I think, don't get me started!

I just typed about 2 full paragraphs about what I think. I then deleted it because this is a public forum, and I really don't want to get into it with a bunch of "strangers". I probably should not reply at all.

But, in a nutshell:

Religion + People = Fanaticism
Fanaticism = Violence

BOTTOM LINE.

I don't BELIEVE so I don't understand. It's unnecissary nonsense to me.

Bart

[biju]

"It's in Revelations people...!!!" -Rev. Lovejoy

[VehiGAZ]

Steve, a guy I work with went to Lebanon on vacation to visit his wife's family and got caught up in that mess for a couple of weeks. He's back now, and we are all quite happy about that.

As for your point of view, well that's all it is - your perspective from your particular point of view. Anyone on the other side of the border no doubt is deeply saddened that their people are unnecessarily persecuted in Islamic Jihad's and Hezb'Allah's war on Israel.

Whose perspective is "right"? Neither, obviously.

It's not that interesting either - EVERYONE has a different perspective about EVERYTHING. So f'n what?

I personally am deeply saddened that Israel is FINALLY doing the right things (pulling out of Lebanon, pulling out of Gaza) -- and the things that the Lebanese, Syrians, and Palestinians have wanted them to do for the last 20-40 years -- and what do they get for it? More attacks from the Lebanese, Syrians, and Palestinians.

But we shoudl really leave this alone - this is a VX forum, not a politics forum.

[transio]

VehiGaz, that's not entirely accurate. I sympathize with Israel. However, their war is with the Syrian/Iranian-backed Hezb'Allah, not with the peaceful Maronite (Christian) Lebanese government. The entire population of Lebanon - including Christians in the North - are being punished by Israel for the actions of the extremist Muslims in the South, and it saddens me.

[transio]

Religion + People = Fanaticism
Fanaticism = ViolenceAmen to that! :p ;)

[nfpgasmask]

Amen to that! :p ;)

I'm glad you agree. Some of us can see through all the rubbish after all.

Bart

[tomdietrying]

When you have an incompetant, unsympathetic government in charge do you really believe things are done for the betterment of the people.

Now, the next question is which government am I speaking about?

Peace.
Tom

Really, I believe this is the wrong forum for this. We could talk about Dakar, Iraq or many other countries. Let's leave this alone here and we can meet up in anther forum for those discussions.

[nocturnalVX]

The band's name... THE THE.
The album... MIND BOMB.
The song... Armageddon Days Are Here (Again)
The chorus... "ISLAM is rising. The Christians mobilising. The world is on it's elbows & knees. It's forgotten the message & worships the creeds."



But, in a nutshell:

Religion + People = Fanaticism
Fanaticism = Violence

BOTTOM LINE.

I don't BELIEVE so I don't understand. It's unnecissary nonsense to me.

Bart

I agree... I'd rather BBQ, watch a movie or cartoons, play video games, go for a ride on my motorcycle, have a couple drinks with friends, see a concert, etc. than blow myself up because somebody believes something different than I do... I can not even begin to see how ANYBODY would choose to feel opposite of that. I'm going to go for a ride.

[nfpgasmask]

Hey Noc!

And just where have you been? I tried to PM you but your box was full! ;)

Bart

PS - I saw The The with Depeche Mode years ago, good show.



The band's name... THE THE.
The album... MIND BOMB.
The song... Armageddon Days Are Here (Again)
The chorus... "ISLAM is rising. The Christians mobilising. The world is on it's elbows & knees. It's forgotten the message & worships the creeds."



I agree... I'd rather BBQ, watch a movie or cartoons, play video games, go for a ride on my motorcycle, have a couple drinks with friends, see a concert, etc. than blow myself up because somebody believes something different than I do... I can not even begin to see how ANYBODY would choose to feel opposite of that. I'm going to go for a ride.

[E-ZooZoo One]

I dare not offer more than the following two quotes; both of which express my opinions on the subject FAR better than I could manage myself:


“We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us.”

-AND-

“So much blood has been shed by the Church because of an omission from the Gospel: "Ye shall be indifferent as to what your neighbor's religion is." Not merely tolerant of it, but indifferent to it. Divinity is claimed for many religions; but no religion is great enough or divine enough to add that new law to its code.”

- Mark Twain

[tomdietrying]

E-Zoo Zoo One,
That says it all. Touche'
Peace.
Tom

[WyrreJ]

I think Israel is shooting itself in the foot.

Their best hope for reducing hezbollah's influence is for a strong lebanese government. One that governs well so that the country has prosperity, a prosperity that the population at large has a vested interest in maintaining and one that enforces the laws so that it locks up hezbollah members that don't care about prosperity anyway and are plotting and to do violence against israel and others.

By destroying so much of the public infrastructure in lebanon all israel accomplishes is the weakening of the lebanese government, and probably one of the best recruiting campaigns ever for hezbollah.

My impression is that with Sharon out of the picture, the current coalition government in israel is very weak. And that by beating the crap out of lebanon they are appealing to the war hawks to strengthen the coalition at a very heavy price in reduced national security in the near and forseeable future.

[Chopper]

I think the Lebanon I remember as a 16 year old ('69-'70) was one of the most beautiful, magical,places in the world. A cosmopolitan, almost European style...some how infused with 6000 years of culture and continuity. The place where humans first learned seafaring,the result being,a place made up of little bits of the whole worlds ideas and ways. My description comes up short. I look now and feel only hollow. When all the humans are gone, maybe then the Cedars will regrow... it will be beautiful again.

[thebear54]

VX TALK...........YES

POLITICS.........NO

Although sympathetic this is NOT a subject for a Car Club Forum

There is no need for any kind of conflict or war if people would stop reacting with emotions instead of good common sense and the brains which God gave all of us.

John

[Soulpower]

Even though this is a car forum, I (and probably most on this forum) see this more as a VX OWNER'S, their FAMILIES & COMMUNITY forum. Hence, over the years, I've felt fortunate to be "included" in other members' general "triumphs, trials and tribulations". It w'ld be a sad day when members are no longer allowed to express themselves on other topics other than the VX. Nuff said!

[ZEUS]

I think the Lebanon I remember as a 16 year old ('69-'70) was one of the most beautiful, magical,places in the world. A cosmopolitan, almost European style...some how infused with 6000 years of culture and continuity. The place where humans first learned seafaring,the result being,a place made up of little bits of the whole worlds ideas and ways. My description comes up short. I look now and feel only hollow. When all the humans are gone, maybe then the Cedars will regrow... it will be beautiful again.

Chopper, that's great... poetic even.
In man as a whole, sometimes the only thing that seems to be evolving is the use of technology, propaganda, and weaponry to display power. True power would be to overcome the urge to have it. If there is a Godhead which created all Chopper described above and more why would it also create a "religious following" so vain to destroy it? I think we are all witness to a glorified gang war full of excuses! The innocents of the neighborhoods suffer the most and there is more than one way to fall victim... How can it end when those who fight fail to see what they should be fighting for? :confused:

[WyrreJ]

I can second Chopper. My aunt spent most of high school there (my grandfather worked for Aramco for a while) and she has said that it was an incredible place.

[E-ZooZoo One]

After my last post, I've found myself re-reading quite a bit of Twain...
It turns out that there are a few more quotes I'd like to share:

“Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion
-- several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself, and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven.”

“Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth.”

“Man is the only animal that blushes -- or needs to.”

- Mark Twain (excerpts from ‘The Lowest Animal’ essay)

[Moncha]

Well said and very true! That's why there is a chit chat section.
The Big Thread Closer in the sky will come down when things get out of hand (as in the past). So far, so good.. Keep it that way and we will always have a family forum....


Even though this is a car forum, I (and probably most on this forum) see this more as a VX OWNER'S, their FAMILIES & COMMUNITY forum. Hence, over the years, I've felt fortunate to be "included" in other members' general "triumphs, trials and tribulations". It w'ld be a sad day when members are no longer allowed to express themselves on other topics other than the VX. Nuff said!

[Heraclid]

Someone is to blame for the suffering of the Lebanese people alright, but not Israel. I support Israel, which is only doing what it must to survive. They have bent over backwards for peace before and it has gotten them nothing. This is of course because nothing less than the total annihilation of Israel will make these Islamic radicals happy. Not even that, actually - they won't be content to stop there. I felt a bit less sorry for Lebanon when they said their army would fight against Israel should there be an invasion. I realize it is hard when Hezbollah pretty much has free reign of the place. But until the Lebanese people take a stand to root out this evil from within and take back their country, they are just contributing to the problem. While they permit these nuts to live among them, then naturally they too will continue to die in Israeli airstrikes. This is Hezbollah's fault for using them as human shields, not Israel's fault. Israel cannot just allow Hezbollah to lob rockets at them, collateral damage or not.

[WyrreJ]

If reducing Hezbollah's ability to "lob rockets" is Israel's goal, the plan has certainly backfired. Each time Israel announces how succesful they've been at reducing Hezbollah's offensive capabilities, Hezbollah fires off even more rockets, even deeper into Israel than they have before.

Actually blaming the civilians themselves for not doing enough to stop hezbollah is really out of whack. With at least a third of the population below the poverty line, they've got enough problem just surviving, never mind worrying about some other country. If Israel wants Lebananon to to protect it from hezbollah, blowing the crap out of the country's infrastructure sure won't help acheive that goal. As far as I can tell, prior to this attack, Israel hadn't contributed a dime of aid to Lebanon at all, much less their security infrastructure.

You seem content to buy into the claim that Israel must kill every last one of them and anyone unlucky enough to get in the crossfire, because they aren't rational humans, they are bloodthirty, unreasonable monsters. That's the big lie that all governments use to justify killing innocents ("Sadam is a mad man," "Kim Jong Il is a mad man," "Gaddafi is a mad man," "Noriega is a mad man," "Milosevic is a mad man" "Castro is a mad man," "Arafat is a madman," the list is practically endless). I've heard the lie enough already and seen enough contrary facts already that anytime it gets used, its proof enough for me that it is a lie. No more free passes with that one, especially when it is used to justify killing people who have nothing to do with the dispute anyway.

[maxw]

You can choose to ignore history, choose to ignore that the Palestinian situation was born of their Arab brothers telling them to flee as their righteous armies swept the Jews into the sea and destroyed the Zionist State ; choose to ignore that these terrorists of which this was born were applauding the horror of 9/11 and the death of the infidels; choose to ignore that Hezballah does not direct attacks on military targets, but seeks out, solely and utterly ,civilians ; choose to ignore that these cowards choose to place their bases amongst innocents so that they may then ask for intervention by third parties; choose to ignore that they are like children who kill their parents and then ask the court to be merciful because they are poor orphans. But one thing you cannot ignore , and that is that unlike their neighbors, when Israel mistakenly wounds and injures children and civilians, the only true and longstanding democracy in the Middle East mourns and debates, hearing an outcry from within as opposed to the celebrations of their neighbors when Israeli civilians are purposefully targetted by these cowardly murderers who masquerade as so-called resistance fighters, and who then flee to hide amongst their sacrificial civilian brethren.
If innocence is the first casualty of war, then truth is surely the second.

[WiSDoM]

That's the big lie that all governments use to justify killing innocents ("Sadam is a mad man," "Kim Jong Il is a mad man," "Gaddafi is a mad man," "Noriega is a mad man," "Milosevic is a mad man" "Castro is a mad man," "Arafat is a madman," the list is practically endless). I've heard the lie enough already and seen enough contrary facts already that anytime it gets used, its proof enough for me that it is a lie. No more free passes with that one, especially when it is used to justify killing people who have nothing to do with the dispute anyway.


Jeezes what facts have you seen that these people are not complete bastards? What world are you living in? I wouldn't want any of these people living near me let alone running my country. You might want to stop watching Al-Jazeera and maybe tune into main stream new agencies. I am just wondering why you left out Hugo Chavez, Pol Pot, and Papa Doc and Baby Duvalier or any number of other bastards. I don't know maybe even Hitler, sure why not add him too your dinner party list?

Any else want to add to the list of innocents? :rolleyes:

[biju]

Mr. Kruen - my 9th grade math teacher...

-biju.

[WyrreJ]

Jeezes what facts have you seen that these people are not complete bastards? Slow down.
Read carefully.
Think.

I said they are not madmen. I did not say they were not abusive and responsible for a lot of pain and suffering. There is a HUGE difference - they can be counted on to act rationally, if you understand the environment in which they operate. Same thing goes for most of Hezbollah. Certainly the ones running the show.

I guarantee that the CIA and other intelligence reports on Hezbollah and all of those people that I listed do not say, "they are madmen." Instead they try to understand their motivations, goals and constraints in order to better predict their future actions.

Sun Tzu said, “Know thy self, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories.” Dismissing your enemy as a madman is a surefire way to lose the battle. In fact, Sun Tzu also said, “Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.” In otherwords, if you can't figure out what your enemy is thinking and simply decide that they are crazy, then chances are, he's going to kick your ạss.

You might want to stop watching Al-Jazeera and maybe tune into main stream new agencies.

Mainstream? Mostly regurgitated press releases. I don't need to be told how to think and you don't either. Stop watching tv news completely. Stop reading McNews like Time Magazine. The internet gives you access to all kinds of resources. If you were taught how be a critical thinker, you can learn a lot about how the world really works.

For example - did you know that the USA was, until just recently, the largest donor to north korea? If Kim Jong Il is such a nutjob, what were we doing supporting him? Do you think he might miss all that free stuff? What options do you think he has to try and turn that spigot back on? What do you think the military arm of the government wants to do?

Another example - do you know where Hezbollah came from? What event caused the formation of the group? Israel's bombing of Lebanon in 1982 directly lead to their organization as a means to resist the attacks. Deja vu?

Or, how about, this one: Why did Hezbollah kidnap those israeli soliders? To torture them to death? Behead them on tv? Perhaps the 2004 prisoner exchange between Hezbollah and Israel - 1 abducted businessman and 3 soldiers' bodies for ~350 palestinian and arab prisoners - might have had something to do with it? Did you know that Hezbollah wanted 3-4 prisoners from israel in exchange for their men back alive?

Is it right that hundreds of lebanese civilians had to die, and hundreds of thousands have to suffer the destruction of most of the infrastructure in their communities because Israel won't do a prisoner swap like they did just a year and a half ago? Or was kidnapping those men part of the total annihilation of Israel?

[WyrreJ]

Max - do you honestly believe that your statements are the whole truth of the situation? That the conflict there is so totally one-sided? If you do, then you've just proven my point about the big lie, you've swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

You can choose to ignore history, choose to ignore that the Palestinian situation was born of their Arab brothers telling them to flee as their righteous armies swept the Jews into the sea and destroyed the Zionist State

This is Hezbollah in lebanon, not palestine. See my previous post. Hezbollah's was created in response to a very similar set of attacks on Lebanon back in 1982.

choose to ignore that these terrorists of which this was born were applauding the horror of 9/11 and the death of the infidels;

How many Americans partied all night long after all the innocents were killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

choose to ignore that Hezballah does not direct attacks on military targets, but seeks out, solely and utterly ,civilians ;

If that's true - then how did Hezbollah get ahold of these israeli soliders? Not cvilians, soldiers. You might want to dig into the answer to that question, turns out the soldiers that were kidnapped were on lebanese terrority to begin with. What where they doing there?

choose to ignore that these cowards choose to place their bases amongst innocents so that they may then ask for intervention by third parties;

Have you heard any lebanese complaining about such tactics? You would think these innocents would be pretty damn pissed about being used that way. So who is complaining? Maybe they have a motive behind such complaints?

choose to ignore that they are like children who kill their parents and then ask the court to be merciful because they are poor orphans.

WTF? Sounds like just another version of the "they're madmen" to me. Or maybe "they are Mendenze."

But one thing you cannot ignore , and that is that unlike their neighbors, when Israel mistakenly wounds and injures children and civilians, the only true and longstanding democracy in the Middle East mourns and debates,

So Israel finally pulls out of lebanon after almost 2 decades, and they finally get syria off their back all on their own and start to form a democratic government, but that doesn't count since its not "true and longstanding." Isn't that more than a little like blaming the victim?

hearing an outcry from within as opposed to the celebrations of their neighbors when Israeli civilians are purposefully targetted by these cowardly murderers who masquerade as so-called resistance fighters, and who then flee to hide amongst their sacrificial civilian brethren.

Honorable men throw rocks at 100 million dollar tanks.

I'm not going to deny that terrorist attacks don't kill innocents. But despite all the "mourning and debating" the "only true and longstanding democracy" keeps right on killing innocents too and and hiding behind billions of dollars worth of military equipment. The two are remarkably similar - terrorist attacks target civilians because hitting military targets armed and defended with the absolute latest technology is just about impossible. Military bombing attacks kill civilians because hitting only hezbollah members is just about impossible.

Each side has their justifications for killing the innocents. Either way, innocent people still end up dead and either way the dead don't care what excuse the killers have.

[transio]

Can't blame Max for his view. Israel is not at fault for the situation they're in. But then again, neither are the Arab nations at fault for their situation.

We're at fault. The West. We birthed the situation and allowed it to grow and fester - neglecting it, even feeding it at times.

Now we conveniently wash our hands of it: "Those crazy 'extremist' Muslims and 'primadonna' Zionists... why can't they get along?" :rolleyes:

[WiSDoM]

Israel went into Lebanon in 1982 because of the PLO. I am not blaming the Lebanese people for any of this mess. When has Israel attacked another country or group unprovoked? If terrorist groups are allow to operate in and out of your country then there are going to be innocent deaths when being delt with. Should Israel done the hostage exchange 18 months ago? Should you encourage kidnappings by dealing with terrorist groups? What do you think would happen if Israel just disarmed and refused to defend itself?

[kpaske]

choose to ignore that these cowards choose to place their bases amongst innocents so that they may then ask for intervention by third parties;

Have you heard any lebanese complaining about such tactics? You would think these innocents would be pretty damn pissed about being used that way.

I concur with most of your statements, but I have to interject on this one. When bad men come to your village or town and recruit a handful of your most able-bodied men, it's very easy to control the entire village. Especially when there is an absense of anyone else (i.e. policemen, soldiers) to prevent it from happening. When half the policemen and soldiers are also corrupt, it makes resistence for those villagers nearly impossible. Besides, the situation looks very different from the outside looking in. We can sit here and talk about how the "innocent" should kick all the bad people out of their villages, but the immediate reality to them is that there is very little incentive for putting up a fight and the best stance to take from their point of view is neutral or indifferent.

[maxw]

WyrreJ feel free to believe what you wish and support whom you wish. I have lived it and continue to do so. I strongly disagree with your position. You have missed the point of my response through your own bias.

Dennis Miller recently said the following about the Middle East situation:

"A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service
to all Americans who still don't get it,
I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs,
which is all you really need.

Here we go:

The Palestinians want their own country.
There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians.
It's a made up word.
Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years.
Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient
but is really a modern invention

Before the Israelis won the land in the 1967 war,
Gaza was owned by Egypt, the West Bank was owned by Jordan,
and there were no "Palestinians."

As soon as the Jews took over and started growing
oranges as big as basketballs,
what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians,"
weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."

So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian"
anymore to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy
at our deaths, until someone points out they're being taped.




Instead, let's call them what they are

:
"Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life
And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In
The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."

I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN.
How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."
Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country.
Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't.
They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years,
especially two years ago at Camp David
but if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights
and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse,
you actually have to figure out some way to make a living.

That's no fun. No, they want what all the other
Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel.
They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course --
that's where the real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel.

Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity"
as their textbooks call it --
for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries
to divert the attention of their own people
away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate,
poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth,
and if you've ever been around God's Earth . . . you know
that's really saying something.

It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic
about the great history and culture of the Muslim Midleast.
Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the
world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that
one.

Chew this around & spit it out: 500 million Arabs; 5 million Jews.
Think of all the Arab countries as a football field,
and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it.
And now these same folks swear that, if Israel gives them
half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals..

Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to
obliterate the tiny country and the constant din
of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea?
Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day:
Just reverse the Numbers.
Imagine 500 million Jews and 5 million Arabs.
I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it .
Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades
and dynamite to themselves? Of course not.

Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations
to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense.
Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible.
Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their
bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.

No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace,
the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that,
with vital operations in Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as
Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible,
and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of
super models who've just had their drugs taken away.

However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger
of losing moral weight. We've already lost some.
After September 11th, our president told us and the world he was going
to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them.
Beautiful.
Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of
an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day),
start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint.

If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day,
we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration
to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean
and east of the Jordan.

Please feel free to pass this along to your friends
Walk in peace! Be Happy! Have a wonderful life"

[WyrreJ]

WyrreJ feel free to believe what you wish and support whom you wish. I have lived it and continue to do so. I strongly disagree with your position. You have missed the point of my response through your own bias.
Just what do you think my bias is?

I'll tell you. My bias is that conflicts are never one-sided. That's it.

I'm pretty sure that the point of your responses is that this particular conflict is one-sided.

Do you disagree? Do you really have another point you are trying to make?

[wekilled]

I'll keep it short as I come to this site for VX talk not politics:

Poor Lebanon, huh? (insert brand of choice nano-tech violin here) Lots opinions in the news and the newspaper from people without a dog in the fight. Its all an exercise in abstracts to them-no personal experience.

Sitting here (3rd tour) on FOB Marez in Mosul, and between Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, and Iran all I can see is I'm surrounded a bunch of people who spend inordinate amounts of time trying (and succeeding) in blowing each other (and myself) up on a daily basis because they are sure they are right and they are most definitely (insert your god of choice here) chosen, and most certainly persecuted people.

BTW-cant wait to get home in 11 months smell the interior of my VX again, feel the steering wheel and have a truly Zen moment.

Doug Wekell
MAJ, US. Army
FOB Marez, Iraq

[Dare2Dream]

Dennis Miller recently said the following about the Middle East situation:

"The Palestinians want their own country.
There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians.
It's a made up word.
Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years.
Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient
but is really a modern invention....
This is such a load of lies, perhaps he has never met a Palestinian to ask him about their families being forced out of their homes during the Naqba (1948). These people were forced out of their own homes, their own land, by force and violence. There are 5 million Palestinian refugees today scattered all around the world. Many of them live in some of the most squalid conditions, in crowded refugee camps, with no means to better their lives, no decent education for their kids, no jobs, not even the freedom to move about.

The Palestinians are living in the largest prisons on earth, occupied by Israel, they have no right to control their destiny. Their land which is their only means of earning a living is continually seized by the government to build settlements. The Palestinians cannot even travel from one city to another. The highways in gaza and west bank are only for the settlers to use. The Palestinians are enduring collective punishment and are being blugeoned into submission.

But they refuse to give up their dream for freedom. They are the Indians who refuse to live on reservations, the blacks who refuse to sit in the back of the bus.

In 1982, Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years to dislodge PLO and in the procees killed thousands of innocents. Out of that occupation came Hizbullah and unfortunately, again, we are seeing history repeat itself.

The only solution is to address the root causes of the violence. Attacking and killing is not the solution and I hope Israel realizes that some day. The only solution is for Israel to start treating the Palestinians as human being, give them their rights, their freedom and free will to control their destiny. If Israel does not want to give them freedom, then they should be accepted as human being, as equal citizens of the country. Israel cannot hope that they will vanish one day.

Justice is the only way to peace. Too many innocent people have been killed on both sides.

[transio]

The only solution is for Israel to start treating the Palestinians as human being, give them their rights, their freedom and free will to control their destiny.Not just Israel - the whole world. Even the Arab nations around Israel, who claim to sympathize with the Palestinians, treat them like sub-human beings. It's very sad.

[WyrreJ]

The only solution is for Israel to start treating the Palestinians as human being, give them their rights, their freedom and free will to control their destiny. If Israel does not want to give them freedom, then they should be accepted as human being, as equal citizens of the country. Israel cannot hope that they will vanish one day.

Lol! At least you picked the right handle to go with your opinions. Israel will never accept palestinians as citizens of Israel. If they did, the jews would quickly become a minority. At which point they would either have to give up on democracy or give up on zionism. Since the whole point of the country is based on religious fruitcakism, you know democracy would be shown the door right quick which would be just about impossible to spin enough to keep the billions of American dollars flowing. Kinda ironic how the ideal of democracy is one of the reasons the palestinians are locked out of "the only true and longstanding democracy in the middle east."

[transio]

Israel will never accept palestinians as citizens of Israel. If they did, the jews would quickly become a minority.Interestingly, the population of Muslims in Israel is growing rapidly. Many Jewish Israelis express fear that they may be ousted from Israel by love (sex) rather than hate (war). :D