Sludge under valve covers

[Otto]

So I went to change the valve cover gaskets because had a small leak, when I removed the valve covers discovered sludge bulit up in some locations 1/4 inch thick. If it looks like this under the valve covers, can't picture what it looks like inside the engine. I bought the truck with 56,000 miles and immediatly switched to moble 1 oil. I am wondering what I can do to dissolve the sludge in th engine without causing damage. I don't want to clug up any openings by loosing up the sludge. I am wondering if there is any product that will completely dissolve sludge small enough to pass small openings and flush out the drain plug. Anybody have any suggestions?

[Joe_Black]

Mobil-1 will get rid of that over a short period of time, so not to worry. Just be very diligent with your oil and filter changes. Whenever I get a high-mileage vehicle and switch it to Mobil-1 I'll do a "short" oil and filter change at 1500 - 2000 miles.

[Otto]

I bought the truck with 56000 miles and now it has 82500 miles, I assumed by now it would be cleaner then what I saw. Changed oil every 5000 miles. I was surprized to see that much sludge.

[JHarris1385]

While on this subject and just a yes if possible will do. I would like to switch to Mobil full synthetic. Im running normal oil in there right now as far as i know. Not had the VX for more than a month. The question is could I just drain old oil and then put new oil in? Is there any other proceedures i need to do before transferring to the new oil?......5x30right? southern indiana climate...

[Chopper]

10/30 is probably a better choice in an older engine. Just swap juice and filter like usual.

[JHarris1385]

its a 2000 with 40,000 miles so 10/30 mobil 1?

[IndianaVX]

jharris,
i would tell you to do as joe mentioned, in your situation. after changing to full syn. change oiil, and filter again in 1000 to 1500 miles. this should "clean" the old oil outta there. im a hoosier also. started with the 10-30, but im running 5/30 now.
take it easy
david

[IndianaVX]

jharris,
one more thing, i replace one quart of oil with a quart of lucas synthetic oil stabizer. so, 4 qts of oil, and 1qt of stabilizer. some people poo poo this product, but im a beliver in it.

[Tone]

Use a quart of engine oil flush avail at any autoparts store before you drain the oil - follow directions, do not drive with this in. I run a qt of diesel through before every other oil change as it is cheaper and accomplishes the same thing. You might want to do it every time you change your oil to clean away the excess. sludge.

[1CROSS]

When you put 1qt of diesel in.Do you drain a qt of oil out before you add it?

[Joe_Black]

I run a qt of diesel through before every other oil change as it is cheaper and accomplishes the same thing. You might want to do it every time you change your oil to clean away the excess. sludge.
Do not do this without removing your coilpacks and plugs completely as you could seriously damage your engine, but better yet don't do this at all. This is an "old school" technique and is correctly done using kerosene which is an "engine wash". Believe it or not, it's actually detailed in my Caterpillar manuals from the 30's and 40's and is how I clean the transmission and clutches on my crawlers. However, diesel and kerosene can do some very nasty things to the inside of a modern engine, so if you want to go to the extreme of an engine flush then use modern off-the-shelf products.

[Otto]

I want to use the engine flush you can buy at the auto parts store, but I hear you have to be carefull not to clog the oil pump screen which could cause major damage to the engine. I hear it's recommended with heavy sludge to drop the oil pan & clean the pan & pump screen with a major flush, is this true?

[Joe_Black]

Use of a good quality synthetic like Mobil-1 or AMSOIL will remove most build-up over time with regular oil & filter changes thanks to their excellent detergent qualities. The amount of "sludge" starting this thread is relatively insignificant compared to that encountered in extreme service environment engines with high mileage and exclusive petroleum lubrication. In that instance a more thorough cleaning of the block and oil galleries can produce enough material to pose a problem to circulation or even blockage.

The area underneath the valve covers is a unique "in engine environment" as the build-up there comes from a combination of oil vapor, oil splash (from valve train) and water vapor produced by normal engine condensation. So what you see there isn't necessarily indicative of what the rest of the engine is like, and being valve covers you can just scrub with a stiff brush and degreaser followed by a good hosing off.

This will be a much more relevant topic for those VX owners not using synthetics as we start getting more machines with 200K miles and higher. ;)

[Otto]

Thank you Joe for your help,I feel much better driving my VX knowing my engine is not a sludge bucket waiting to die. I will follow up with more oil changes and keep up with Mobil 1. Thanks everyone for there thoughts on this subject.

[Tone]

Joe, you amaze me again. I recommened an off the shelf product, the base of which is diesel. Do tell what you think these nasty things d and k can do inside an idleing engine?

[Joe_Black]

Joe, you amaze me again. I recommened an off the shelf product, the base of which is diesel. Do tell what you think these nasty things d and k can do inside an idleing engine?
They can do a great deal of damage, and it's well documented. It is true that diesel and kerosene are good solvents, but there's a big difference between a solvent and a dispersant which is what engine oil does. It's a well known and often unfortunate fact that using a fuel-based solvent on engine internals can irreparably damage seals and bearing surfaces. Galling on bearing surfaces after such a treatment leads in short order to failure, most often in the crank bearings as they are usually completely immersed during the "treatment". Those with chemistry backgrounds will recognize that fuels such as diesel and kerosene, which are petroleum distillates, alter the chemisty of engine oil inhibiting its ability to film and adhere to engine load surfaces.

The "myth" of the kerosene/diesel flush and the snake oils based on it are self perpetuating. But what goes on inside your engine block is no myth, and you want one thing in contact with it at all times and that's a properly specified engine oil. Plain and simple. Kerosene and diesel are good for washing engine parts and any other internal use will lead a healthy engine to the parts washer in no time.

I mentioned above that the manuals for my vintage Caterpillars specify using kerosene as an "engine wash", but there are specific procedures followed to eliminate any residue before putting the engine back into operation such as using straight mineral oil as an after-flush conditioner to help the bearing surfaces adhere to fresh engine oil. Also these old engines used leather for seals which was relatively unaffected by kerosene, which can attack and damage the seals in our engines.

[Tone]

Wow, I must be the exception to the norm having done it for 30yrs on as many vehicles, all driven hard and never lost an engine or a seal. We're talking about one quart of solvent to 5 quarts of oil, at idle, and then drained, the left over distillates evaporating. Oil will go right back to doing it's intended job just fine - this ain't rocket science.

Guess there is a conspiracy with GUNK and engine manufactures - use this product and it ruins your engine. Please site sources and not generalize as you are prone to do with statements like the below and that it is "all over the internet" which in itself means little since everyone on the 'net seems to be an "expert" without any backup. I state facts from experience, NOT what others have said on the net.

And how are all those projects that you continually speak of doing? How about talk about it AFTER you actually do it, if that ever occurs? Intentions are great but the road to **** is paved with good intensions.

[Joe_Black]

Please site sources and not generalize as you are prone to do with statements like the below and that it is "all over the internet" which in itself means little since everyone on the 'net seems to be an "expert" without any backup.
Admittedly I have on occasion made mention of "the net" and do apologize as it's not a good thing to do, but I don't feel I'm prone to that behavior and sincerely apologize if it comes across that way. However I will make an effort to post either scans or links to legitimate documentation supporting my opinion. I can't promise I'll dedicate a great deal of time to that immediately, as there is too much "life" going on at the moment but will make an effort. But you are exactly right in that the Internet gives many with little or no actual knowledge or experience a tremendous voice to others who don't think to research or question what is being said. It's almost as if those of us who make an honest and sincere effort to help and share what little we think we know should put a "disclaimer" in our posting signatures. ;)


I state facts from experience, NOT what others have said on the net.
I'm very much in agreement with you and do the same. In fact I felt the same on the diesel/kerosene flushes initially until some discussions with family members and friends that are professional truck and industrial mechanics. What I learned left me with more questions and since I was beginning my own foray into auto mechanics more research substantiated what they had shown me. I know very, very little in the grand scheme of things and will always open my mind to alternatives. Diesel/kerosene flushes have worked for enough people to get into circulation, but the risks are far greater than the potential return. Especially when there are simpler and safer methods, as a vehicle is a lot of investment for most of us to gamble with.


And how are all those projects that you continually speak of doing? How about talk about it AFTER you actually do it, if that ever occurs? Intentions are great but the road to **** is paved with good intensions.
You're very right and I believe I've offered some public apologies at meets and here on the forum for not delivering as I had hoped. My worst trait is leaping to help others before accounting for prior commitments or simply evaluating what I've already got on my plate. The window fix, for example, has been the most recent bit of frustration as I get very little time to sit and work straight through on it. This leaves me in a "two step forward one step back" mode and it's been daunting to say the least considering how deceptively simple the little bugger seems. As for the bigger projects, like carbon fiber, it's simply been a matter of logistics. I've got a 2400 sq. ft. shop building sitting on pallets at our acreage waiting for construction. Now, it's been like two years since my first plans to work on the CF projects and we just received our first building permit for the smaller 1,000 sq. ft. shop. The land we have is largely reclaimed mining land, so I felt it prudent to have a geological survey performed and this led to a great number of complications and delays in getting to where we are now.

As for all the projects? On hold. Not abandoned, just on hold. So for all who may be perusing this thread and are aware I again offer apologies for any false hopes I may be responsible for creating. I do have many interests and spread myself very thin, so get very excited when something gets worked out in my head or a new approach presents itself. It usually ends up in a file with as much info as I can gather until the time is right for implementation, and in that I can be very patient as to do a thing right is better than to do it wrong.

And to you Tone I'm sorry if my opinion at times rubs you the wrong way. It's not my intention. In this instance I merely tried to keep someone from doing something I viewed as unnecessary and potentially hazardous, especially to the inexperienced. It wasn't meant or presented as a personal attack or to discredit you, and you've been a tremendous friend to the VX community in your time here. My opinion is flexible as needed, but for now the evidence and experience for me are very negative regarding diesel/kerosene flushes.

[Tone]

Sorry, I did no take it personally as I knew you did not intend it that way. You are sharing your opinion and hearsay. I speak only from a point of experience and will seldom venture out on a limb about something techinical if I do not know first hand or from a technical document.

As I stated, I've done this for a very long time with no detrimental results. I do it with my current $65,000 MB. Help me understand WHY engine flush is offered for sale in autoparts stores or even sold through Jiffy Lube type places?

[Joe_Black]

As I stated, I've done this for a very long time with no detrimental results. I do it with my current $65,000 MB.
I've never said it was certain to damage an engine and the fact you can get away with it has definitely led to it being perpetuated as a viable solution. But my point is the opportunity for damage is too great with modern engines and most especially for the mechanically inexperienced. You've done it with no problems and continue to do so, and that's fine. Just because you jump off a cliff doesn't mean I have to, and others should in all fairness be advised that their leap from the same precipice may not end up in a happy place.


Help me understand WHY engine flush is offered for sale in autoparts stores or even sold through Jiffy Lube type places?
That's the simplest answer yet: To make a buck off any rube who doesn't know any better. The additive and pour-a-fix aisle? Come on! :p

Seriously, as mentioned in the previous post I will post scans or links to supporting info. In the meantime we should agree that we disagree on this topic, and that it would be prudent for those interested in an engine flush to do additional research to better suit their needs. ;)

[psychos2]

Use a quart of engine oil flush avail at any autoparts store before you drain the oil - follow directions, do not drive with this in. I run a qt of diesel through before every other oil change as it is cheaper and accomplishes the same thing. You might want to do it every time you change your oil to clean away the excess. sludge.


I would not add diesel to your oil PERIOD. Anything that will thin out the oil is bad. Even at an idle.There are plenty of detergents in the oil already.With regular oil changes there should be no need for this.The only way you would know for sure if you are doing any damage to your engine would be to have x-ray vision.Unless you look at the bearings and seals, before and after you do this.As far as it not being rocket science, if you think about it ,when that qt of diesel fuel goes through the bearings before it mixes completely with the oil I would think this to be a BAD thing. And just because you do it in your $65,000 MB does not mean squat.It does not prove that it does not do any damage.And by saying what you said above " I run a qt of diesel through before every other oil change as it is cheaper and accomplishes the same thing." is saying use diesel fuel. shawn

[Tone]

See the Engine Flush in the parts store. I say I do it in the MB to backup what I do instead of what you've heard....