Every mile costs/ ideas to better the milage

[MoonRaker]

Hey MoonRaker, I think that's cool!

I love to tinker with ideas and try to gain an understand why things do or don't work. Sounds like that's what you are going for. I rarely find the time for those little pet projects, so I applaud your effort and descriptions of anything you learn about this subject.
My guess is that you won't learn or achieve exactly what you intended, but as many have in the past you will learn something else that surprizes you even more! (and have a blast doing it)

It looks like this device isn't seperating the Hydrogen from the Oxygen, so it's a new concept to me. If burning it as you make it, this should be fine. If storing it, you would want to just store the Hydrogen, cuz theres lots of Oxygen to be had from the air as you need it.

Also, I'm not sure that you can't upload photos if not a member. I think you are just limited in storage space???

Keep working on your dreams, stick with the facts, share with those who are interested, oh and most importantly be SAFE.

My 2.499999999 cents worth

The oxygen in the hydrogen also acts like an excelerant but I scratched the idea of storage. It seems that you can only make so much before it starts costing effeciancy and builds alot of heat. I have one settup on the bench that im doing the preassure testing with. Its a tubler settup but bigger and solid stainles. Its the one id be affraid of using in my VX unless I can change the timming. After it reaches 130 it tends to kinda boil over so im still working on electrolite mixture to keep it below that. Also if you use anything that isnt pure stainles as a metal you run into contamination issues wich if you dont change the water often it becomes a heat issue also. Im also trying to avoid a situation like this or worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e85aPS6P72A

[MoonRaker]

I was woundering if anyone has had any experiance with the Gready E manage engine managment system on a VX. I ask this because I have one on the shelf.

[MoonRaker]

Pay close attention to #8
http://www.primeideas.info/patents.html

[Techy-D]

You might also check out:
http://www.hydrogenht.com/

http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/01/smal...ce=yahoo_quote

[MoonRaker]

Nice reading. Seems alot of people are liking hydrogen.

Well, made a few adjustments. I move the imput of hydrogen to the intake from the PCV. I patched up all the holes and settup a controled vacume bleed. It seems the ECU trimmed its self to the stock perameters, all except the MAF the other way.

[MoonRaker]

Well, looking hopfull, even better then the 285 mile till the idiot light for gas came on. On that test I had seen 34 miles before the pass of the full mark. This tank is 38.

[MoonRaker]

Well, 298. I need to figure out a certain way to lean out the mix to get anymore. My boss and I took his car out to do some testing. This is an RX8. We got on the highway and he just started pulling out fuel, we leaned out the mix to 19/1 air fuel, any further dosnt register. Then we continued to lean it out a few more points and it didnt feel like it was running that lean, usauly it bucks and stumbles starting at 15/1. Well for the big test I turned off the generator and the car died. We pulled over and had to add 30% fuel to get it running again. Hmmm

[Techy-D]

Nice reading. Seems alot of people are liking hydrogen.

Well, made a few adjustments. I move the imput of hydrogen to the intake from the PCV. I patched up all the holes and settup a controled vacume bleed. It seems the ECU trimmed its self to the stock perameters, all except the MAF the other way.

Are you using a ScanGauge or something to see what the system is doing? I'd be interested in the Fuel Injector Trim #'s, as this may be an indicator of what's happening in there. (I've played a bit with them to help figure out my problems, you have to program them into the Scangauge - Xgauge)

[MoonRaker]

Are you using a ScanGauge or something to see what the system is doing? I'd be interested in the Fuel Injector Trim #'s, as this may be an indicator of what's happening in there. (I've played a bit with them to help figure out my problems, you have to program them into the Scangauge - Xgauge)

Ive figured out whats happining with the trims, it seems that the foward wideband 02s want to see around 700 and even if you try to show less flow across the maf (2 volts less) it trims to compansate. I have a trouble code thats been there for a while showing the EGR isnt working correctly, I pulled it apart and it seems it was somewhat sticky but has nuthing to do with the setup since its been there for a while prior to the generator. I havent coughed up the money for a new valve because it dosnt make a difference in the way the truck runs. I just switched to a higher output generator so im gona need to trim fuel to get the most out of it. Gotta rember that the ECU is programed to give the proper emmisions value. You could run it fine a little leaner but it runs it richer to get the cat to work properly. Hmm, maybe punching the cat out will tell the foward 2 02 sensors to pull fuel out?? Gona try other stuff first but its an idea. Im trying to avoid throwing any other codes because that might cause the ECU to get thrown into open loop, or that might be somthing to try also, open loop is the ECUs pre programed tune, it usauly goes into openloop under haevy load or certain codes being thrown. Might try disconecting the rear o2 sensors.

[twistedsymphony]

to get more reliable results you should be standardizing your measuring and monitoring process.

the most reliable way to measure fuel economy is this:
1. fill up your tank
2. reset your trip meter before you leave the pump
3. drive for a while
4. fill up your tank again
5. [trip mileage]/[fuel to fill tank] = MPG

if you want to make sure that it's perfectly accurate make sure your speedo is reading correctly, the speedo gets it's signal from the same place as the odo and trip meter so typically those are only as accurate as the speedo.

I'm not sure how it works on the VX but digital speed sensors often have an adjustment screw on the back of the gauge cluster, failing that Dakota Digital makes a unit for $80 that will let you adjust your speedo exactly. use a GPS to tune it, or if you know a LEO with radar equipment you can have them help.

On top of that you can get an OBDII scanner for ~$100 that will provide you with real time A/F ratios and Injector cycle times to let you know what you're engine is doing at all times.... if you've got a laptop you can probably get an even cheaper OBDII cable and record the results from a trip. Some more expensive OBDII units (~$200) can record the trip data to be dumped to a desktop computer later on.

This would make it VERY easy to test the results of your system. fill up, turn it on, set the laptop to record and do a 5 mile loop. Mark your mileage turn the system off, fill up again and do the same 5 mile loop. Did you see a difference? Do this while keeping with the speed limit and use land marks to start your braking distances... trying to keep as consistent as possible. Best bet is a highway loop where you're staying at a constant speed for extended periods of time.

Saying "I got X miles on my last tank" is rather ridiculous IMO... the fuel gauge unholy in-accurate and can fluctuate quite a bit depending on just the pitch of your car never mind temperature, pressure, humidity, etc. Similarly if you drove different places on one tank to the next, did you use your AC more this week or last week?... even the mixture from one gas station to the next or from one week to the next from the same station can effect your mileage by a couple MPG. Measuring your A/F and Injectors among other things will also show you if your engine is ACTUALLY running more rough or smoother (as opposed to your butt dyno), as well as show you how well it's running in any given RPM range. Depending on the data you get you might also be able to derive average HP and torque as well.

"test results" are only as reliable as the quality of the test

[MoonRaker]

Well, that sounds like a good way to make some adjustments but you have to worrie about long term fuel trims wich I monitor on my OBD2 scanner wich is real time, I can monitor the voltage comming from each of the 4 O2 sensors, the maf sensor. I havent loaded the programs that monitor each injector yet but id say that its not needed for what im trying to acomplish. My plan wich im going to do tommorow is disconnect the front 2 O2 sensors and maybe all 4. I want to force the truck into open loop wich will base the fuel maps on the maf.

[MoonRaker]

Ok, just went and pulled the plugs on the front O2 sensors. The OBD2 showes them at a voltage of .450 and the other .455 locked so no adjustment, before they showed in the .650 to .850 range verying. The rear sensors were still reading but ALOT leiner, in the .050 at idle and .3 under excel so thats working. Ow, forgot to mention im still bleeding air in through the Vac side of the throttlebody along with the hydro gismo. I stopped the leak and the rear 02s went to .350 at idle. It seemed I was bleeding to much air for open loop so the truck started stumbling, I adjusted the bleed till the idle was stable with the gismo running, forgot to turn it off to see what happens. When I got back from a ride the rear 02s were .010 to .005, and it was still running pretty good??? holly crap. I have a freshly filled tank, lets see if were gona see even more milage, might break 300 this time.

[MoonRaker]

Ok, twisted , tryed it your way. I mounted the trusty shop wideband. Filled the tank and clocked 50 miles, average speed 65 70, returned to the sceen of the same pump, filled 2.2 gallons. The wideband was between 16 and 19 to 1 air/fuel. So, thats around 23 to 24 MPG. that sure beats 16 to 20 that I was getting before. Ok, new idea that I talked to a very smart guy I now that worked at Pratt & Whitney as and engineer. He said to heat the gasoline to the point of vapor using the exaust manifold as a pre heater. He said when they tryed it they got almost 80 MPG on a V-8. Ok, it sounds dangerous to me but ill give it a try. Im thinking of a throttlbody settup. Put in a switch to shut off the port injection when the vapor system gets up to temp.

[Cobrajet]

He said to heat the gasoline to the point of vapor using the exaust manifold as a pre heater.

My Cobra used to do that. We called it vapor lock. Tended to kill the engine. Not a good thing. Fuel pumps don't work well pushing vapor.

[MoonRaker]

The plan is to have a seprate fuel system tied into the stock one. Fuel wont be pumped as vapor. It tends to rise in pressure when vaporized anyway. We have a stand alone fuel injector system at the shop that can control 1 injector. The plan is to inject the fuel prior to a copper or stainless line that runs across the exaust manifold then through a nozzle pre throttlebody. No vapor lock that way.