Starting Issues - Not a dead battery.

[bentcipher]

Ok folks, having a bit of an issue that I can't quite figure out. I'm just doing general troubleshooting and believe this is a general issue that applies to most vehicles (i.e. not Vx specific)

Background:
I live in Florida, always warm, recently however we've been hit with a cold spell and temperatures dropped a bit to 50's. This is when the problem first appeared.

Observations:
The vehicle does not start when sat overnight. It takes many tries to get it started and it eventually does. I hear one single click (as if the battery was dead) and that's it. After repeatedly trying to start it with key in ignition, it finally fires up - cranks real fast and strong. This problem gets better during the day if the vehicle sits for about an hour or less. Otherwise, it will do the same thing: one click... and nothing. Recently, this problem is getting worse. On one of the mornings it took me literally 5 minutes of screwing with it to finally get it started.

Other:
The battery is Diehard Gold just recently (6 months) installed. The last time I had symptoms like this my battery contacts needed cleaning. I cleaned them again this time and re-lubed with dielectric grease. Didn't help. I tracked the wire from the battery to the starter. The only thing I see is I have a P/S leak and possibly a coolant leak dripping down on the cables on the driver's side. But the cables are insulated and have plastic wrapping on top of that... not sure if the fluid will get through that and even then... whether it will inhibit electrical current getting to the starter.

So this is what it is, the symptoms are almost identical to when the battery contacts are oxidized and don't let the current get to the starter... except that's not the problem.

Anyone can point me in the right direction before I start taking things apart?

Many thanks!

[VCrossfan]

From what I gather it doesn't turnover at all, then while working the ignition key it starts turning over at a normal/fast speed. If this is the case I would says it's electrical. Maybe the Neutral safety switch (won't let starter power unless it's in Park or Neutral). I would check the connections there and even the ignition switch/wiring.. You might even try to engage the key to start, and if doesn't do anything (with your foot on the brake) move the shifter in/out of park and try it in neutral also...Good Luck

[bentcipher]

Exactly. I hear it click once for each attempt I make to start it with the key... by the sound of it it comes from the starter area. I have tried putting the shifter in Neutral and see if it started, then back to Park and nothing...

Note that if you put the shifter in gear and try to start then you actually don't even get a click - it makes no sounds. So the symptoms are different from what I'm having.

What makes this problem difficult to troubleshoot is it's weather-dependent - that is it completely goes away when it gets warm. Being in Florida, that's most of the year so I literally have only so many days (sometimes hours) to troubleshoot and fix this issue. Sux.

[VCrossfan]

[QUOTE=bentcipher;144914]
Note that if you put the shifter in gear and try to start then you actually don't even get a click - it makes no sounds. So the symptoms are different from what I'm having.QUOTE]

It clicks in Park and Neutral is correct. It should not click when it's in a gear so thats ok and normal.

I'm still thinking it's a loose ground or bad connection. Try this "old school" trick. Have yourself or someone tap the starter while someone turns the key. But don't tap until the person running the key has tried, turn the key and if there's nothing tell them to tap the starter while the key is still being turned. I know it's old school but worth a try...Good Luck

[bentcipher]

Ok, thanks buddy. I'll give that a shot... once it gets cold again. It's back to warm weather in FL so it starts on the first try!

[SilverBullet75]

another old school trick that the "tapper" can do is to jump the power terminal of the starter to the switch lead. You can use a screwdriver to make contact between both. Not sure the technical terms for these but, it should make the starter spin. If not, starter or solenoid is bad... or the wiring, as was already mentioned.

good luck!

[Jolly Roger VX'er]

Ok folks, having a bit of an issue that I can't quite figure out. I'm just doing general troubleshooting and believe this is a general issue that applies to most vehicles (i.e. not Vx specific)

Background:
I live in Florida, always warm, recently however we've been hit with a cold spell and temperatures dropped a bit to 50's. This is when the problem first appeared.

Observations:
The vehicle does not start when sat overnight. It takes many tries to get it started and it eventually does. I hear one single click (as if the battery was dead) and that's it. After repeatedly trying to start it with key in ignition, it finally fires up - cranks real fast and strong. This problem gets better during the day if the vehicle sits for about an hour or less. Otherwise, it will do the same thing: one click... and nothing. Recently, this problem is getting worse. On one of the mornings it took me literally 5 minutes of screwing with it to finally get it started.

Other:
The battery is Diehard Gold just recently (6 months) installed. The last time I had symptoms like this my battery contacts needed cleaning. I cleaned them again this time and re-lubed with dielectric grease. Didn't help. I tracked the wire from the battery to the starter. The only thing I see is I have a P/S leak and possibly a coolant leak dripping down on the cables on the driver's side. But the cables are insulated and have plastic wrapping on top of that... not sure if the fluid will get through that and even then... whether it will inhibit electrical current getting to the starter.

So this is what it is, the symptoms are almost identical to when the battery contacts are oxidized and don't let the current get to the starter... except that's not the problem.

Anyone can point me in the right direction before I start taking things apart?

Many thanks!

This happened to me last winter and it turned out that my O.E.M. (stock) battery terminal (positive in my case) was not making perfect contact with my battery post even when fully tightened.

Mine would sit overnight in the cold and just "click" when you tried to start w/ a 1 year old Optima. I tried the starter trick as mentioned with my dad (I was visiting @ his house) to no avail. Also tried a jumper pack to no avail. I tried cleaning posts & terminals and still had problems after sitting.

Finally I changed both my battery terminals to aftermarket and haven't had a problem since about a year ago. In my case the original battery terminals seemed to have fatigued into a slightly conical shape that seemed to only allow full contact at the top and slightly less than preferred contact the rest of the way down. I do not understand why it would act up after sitting overnight????

It would start up fine during the day with no issues. I'd let it sit overnight and the next morning....click..click...click. After a few attempts it would finally start.

Hope this helps!!!!

[bentcipher]

Thanks for the input Jolly Roger, I did notice that my battery cable clamps are slightly larger than my battery terminals. I used some metal strips sandwiched in-between to keep it tight but it's still turnable by hand. I'll try maybe screwing with that if that problem returns....

Yeah... so the problem just went away. The only thing I did was use some Orange Blast degreaser to get the coolant/PS fluid off the battery cable running under the motor (driver's side) - that was two weekends ago.

It still did that.... one click... for about a week (last week), but after that... all of a sudden it just went away... It starts right up from the first try. I didn't do anything... I didn't even open the hood since two weeks ago so I'm really at a loss now.

Oh well.... I guess I can concentrate on finding that P/S and coolant leaks...

[Vehi-Cross-Az]

Mine pulled this stunt last summer
I had been driving thru some deep deep water from some
monsoons we just had all day and came home and parked it
the next morning...same thing.
So I let it and dry for a full day and the next morning
it started no problem.
Now its all cold and dry, but mine did the same thing this
morning... turn the key, the engine turns a fraction and then
almost a clunk. Turn the key again and not even a click.
But all my dashlites do come on with the key and all my power
works for the headlights and radio.
All my cables looked good and felt tight but Im going to check
it when I get home.
Sound familiar ?

[Solitude]

Mine did this too, instead of jumping and going to autozone for a check.. I just pulled it (battery) out and took it for the check.

Result was dead and not able to hold a charge. Replaced under battery warranty.

[tom4bren]

Even new batteries can be bad so don't rule that out. Jumping it could tell you if your battery is weak. Careful tho, if it's a battery terminal issue then just hooking up a jumper cable can cause it to make enough contact to start and you'll mis-diagnose the problem.

If your cable clamps are loose enough to turn, then I'd say that's the source of the problem. I put some quick disconnects on my daughter's car & they caused all kinds of problems.

You can use your jumper cable to go from the positive lead on the battery to the large terminal on the starter to see if it's a cable issue. After that, you can use it to go from the negative terminal to the engine block to see if it's a ground issue.

From what you've said so far, just put on new cable clamps at the battery & that should fix your problem.

[bentcipher]

Right... so... 8 months later I have finally resolved this issue.

Over the last few months the symptoms were getting progressively worse in terms that it would sometimes take numerous attempts trying to start - only to get a "one click" each try. Finally, when it got so bad that I was spending 2-3 minutes every time I wanted to take my truck anywhere just trying to start it, I decided to pull the starter and test it.

Pulled the starter, took it to the Autozone for a bench test, it passed... I didn't believe it as it sounded kind of weak during the test so I bought another starter, put that in and the issue has completely been resolved!

So for those of you experiencing "one click" when turning ignition, check your cables and if that's not the cause, you will probably need to replace the starter... even if it appears to be in good working order.

QUICK NOTE .................................................. ....................................
This is not the first time that a starter failed even though it passed a bench test. I remember working on a 98 Ford e150 where the starter would be cranking slowly, with the fresh battery and good cable connections all the way down the line. The issue was completely resolved after replacing the starter, which also passed the bench by the way.

[bentcipher]

Procedure...

Replacement of the starter on VehiCROSS is not as easy as some of the vehicles I've worked on, but it is pretty straightforward. Almost every starter that I've replaced involved getting underneath, removing two bolts holding the starter in and pulling the unit out without doing anything else. Fast and easy. I was surprised that VehiCROSS wasn't as simple as that as you have to get part of your exhaust out of the way.

The unit I replaced the OEM Denso starter with was a "Duralast" brand from Autozone. It's about $110 bucks and my local Autozone had it in stock. I had pretty good luck with Duralast brand so I just went ahead and used that. It sounds slightly "raspier" than the original OEM unit but other than that it functions the same. The starter I replaced on an 98 Econoline is also using a Duralast starter.... which was installed 2 years ago and is working perfectly.

Right... so before you begin, make sure that your cables, connectors, fuses, etc... leading up to the starter are clean, tight, and otherwise in good working order. The best way to check if your starter is getting juice is to use a volt meter to identify voltage at the cable connecting to the starter (there are two cables running from the battery to the starter - the big one (black/red) is the + and the smaller connector is a switch). If you're seeing anything less than 12.1V at the (+) terminal you've got an issues somewhere between the starter and the battery (assuming your battery is good).

If everything checks out ok, go ahead and put VehiCROSS up on ramps or jack it up (use safety precautions!), disconnect (+) battery terminal and get underneath.

You will not pull the starter out without moving the driver's exhaust pipe out of the way. The bad news is that it /has/ to be moved out of the way so just go ahead and quit wasting time trying to figure out how you can fiddle the starter out of there without removing the exhaust. The good news is that it's /very/ simple and you don't actually have to remove the pipe - just move it out of the way.

1. Remove the aluminium shield underneath the starter (should be approx. underneath the steering wheel when you're under the vehicle)
- 2: Remove two O2 sensors from the driver's side exhaust
- 3: Remove three nuts holding the exhaust pipe to the exhaust manifold at the top
- 4: Trace the exhaust pipe toward the muffler and you will find two more locations each requiring removal of two nuts and bolts (also a gasket you should save or replace if in poor condition). One location is at the muffler and the other joining the passenger's side exhaust.
- 5: Once the pipe is free, observe the opening through which you will pull your starter out and move the exhaust pipe out of the way accordingly. At this point you should be almost directly underneath the driver's seat looking toward the engine bay from underneath the vehicle. The exhaust is flexible past catalytic converter and will allow you a little play to wiggle it out of the way a little bit. You don't need a big opening. Just enough to get the starter through.
- 6: Once the pipe is out of the way, proceed to disconnect the (+) and the ignition switch cabling from the starter. Then remove two 12mm bolts holding the starter and carefully wiggle the starter out.
- 7: Install new starter using the two 12mm bolts you just removed and proceed to reassemble everything else in reverse order.

Note: The starter and the solenoid is in the same unit so you don't have to replace them separately. If you're going to get a Duralast brand, it will be slightly smaller than the OEM. And before reconnecting your exhaust pipe, use a wire brush to get the surfaces nice and clean at the muffler and pass exhaust pipe joints. Don't forget the gasket!


DISCLAIMER:
So you all know I am not a mechanic. The above directions are designed to offer guidance and exhibit the ease of starter replacement procedure. You should consult your workshop manual before attempting any of the above and... of course... use this at your own risk.

If you're not sure about anything post your questions here!

Good luck!

[circmand]

I have been told too many keys can mess upp the ignition switch that when going bad can demonstrate these symptoms

[Vehi-Cross-Az]

I choose not to use anything Autozone sells
but did do the same procedure a few months ago

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=14949