Conceal to carry - if so what? Or what do you own?

[BigSwede]

Bond originally carried a .32, not a .380.

That's what I thought, too.

[tom4bren]

Y'all are just a little scary sometimes.

[BigSwede]

Ah, the wonders of the internet: "The guns of James Bond" http://www.vincelewis.net/bond.html

[Triathlete]

BigS...we carried "Ranger" rounds which were manufactured for LE use. That helped but I think it became more of a legal issue than anything else and they didn't want to take any chances...so, when it came time for new equipment our department went with the 40's...Glock of course.


As far as knock down power and round placement...all my training (LE and military) was 2 to the chest 1 to the head. That usually "stops" them.

[BigSwede]

As far as knock down power and round placement...all my training (LE and military) was 2 to the chest 1 to the head. That usually "stops" them.

Well sure...assuming you have time to deliver those three shots on target even a .22 will work fine.

[Triathlete]

The first 2 should slow him down enough to make the head shot easy!

[JHarris1385]

Less recoil on a .22 could prove to be more accurate too.


Ok looks like I was off in the caliber of PPK of Bond's, but at least it was even smaller. I had no idea he was a fictional character. Since when foto?

Pretty sure I am going to stick with a PK380 as my next buy. Probably here in the next week or so. I do like the Springfield XD-40s though.

[VX KAT]

L I do like the Springfield XD-40s though.

Have you seen the Springfield EMP? It's a "mini" 1911, in 9mm, .40 or .45
Saw one at the local gun shop about 2 months ago, it's purdy and felt great. They're going for over $1,100 The reviews are terrific. Maybe next year....

It's similar in general size to my Beretta Cheetahs...which many complain are too large for CC, but since that's not what I do with them, it's fine, since they fit my hand perfectly.
http://www.m1911.org/ezine/SAemp.htm
http://www.springfield-armory.com/ar...hp?version=110

[Ascinder]

Then I thought back to the many other episodes of this show I've watched with GSWs....Usually just a single shot, to somewhere on the body or chest...and they're still basically incapacitated, no matter what caliber. So it made me think that if I ever have to, god forbid, pump a .22, or a .380 or even our new .32 auto into a bad dude...it's still going to hurt like hell and will probably slow them down and maybe even get me a 2nd shot in them.

When my dad worked security for the Hilton here in town, I remember him telling us about a guy stumbling into the club with seven rounds of 9mm in him. Just walked right in, barely even bleeding. Granted ammo has a lot to do with it, but that soured me on 9mm ever since. To me 9mm seems like a round meant to wound similar to .223/5.56(AR-15/M-16 ammo). I'm not bloodthirsty, but if it comes down to it, I'm simply not out to wound people/large aggressive animals.

The gun left at home because it showed too much through your clothes has no stopping power.

.380's are a much slimmer frame, and when 'melted' really print much less through your clothes.

That's simply because many .380 are single stack clips vs. many 9mms being double stack. unless you go around in a bikini, speedo, or spandex clothing, I don't see where the problem is concealing these. I can fit a HUGE HK USP in a cargo pants pocket and it's pretty invisible.

For the sake of argument, personal carry guns are meant for close combat range (when you are threatened by a robber/mugger in close quarters).

For the sake of continuing the argument, I disagree. If you live where I do and go hiking, camping, etc, you tend to go where the critters are. Most bears aren't going to notice when you pull out your dinky little .380 and proceed to fire off some glorified rubber bands at them. Yes, I do concealed carry hiking as most people(especially californians) get weird/overly spooked if they see a gun on your hip. Also, for close quarters you have got to be kidding me. Have you heard of the 21 foot rule? What mugger or robber mugs you from 21 feet away. Guns are simply not good close quarters response weapons.

If you are trying to pick off your threat (robber/mugger) at long range; then you are now in an offensive sniper mode, not defensive (and YOU need to be arrested).

If someone threatens myself or the general public in that manner and I have the chance to stop them by any means, I'll gladly be arrested for it. I'd rather be alive and have a clear conscience in jail, than be either dead or have to live with doing nothing and letting them get away to harm others in the future.

If you are in a long distance fire fight with gunfire, then you need to seek cover and call the frickin' Police!!!

If you have a gun that can take them out from a distance and they're carrying something that can't(likely), then firefight's over and you call the morgue.

One reason a lot of law enforcement agencies stopped using 9mm is you need to be aware of what is beyond the target. 9mm tends to go through and continue to travel beyond the target (person) and do collateral damage. We switched to .40cal. Does not kick to bad and will stop what you hit.

40 cal is awesome I love how it shoots and how it feels shooting, one of the reasons you guys started using is also it because female FBI agents couldn't handle the 10mm(basically 40 cal magnum, same bullet though). I've owned .40, .45, and 10mm pistols, and .40 is a nice snappy round. I only went to my 10mm once I saw my buddy who had been nagging me about them shoot his at the range. It's basically a handheld carbine. Ridiculous flat trajectory just like the .40, but accurate out to a solid 2-300 yards. No joke, the 10 is a reach out and touch someone round.

Its all about shot placement. a .22 will stop some one faster than a .45 if the .22 hits the right spot, and the .45 doesnt.

example: a security officer i know carries a .45. he had to use it about 2 months ago. the first two rounds were torso hits, one cracked a rib, the other was in and out near the coller bone. the third hit did the most damage, as it severd the femoral artery, causing the loss of the leg. he lived.

Befor you ask, it was a justified shooting.

I agree to a point. The impact trauma of a large caliber bullet which doesn't overpenetrate is far higher than a small caliber. This really applies with large animals. You aren't taking down boars or bears with a 22 and probably not mountain lions either unless you are super sniper extraordinaire(probably not even then though). Also, that security guard needs better ammo or accuracy. Three hits with a .45 should be enough to take out anyone.

Regarding overpenetration of 9mm, are you guys using ball ammo? I don't think a hollow point would go through a body, unless clothing clogged the hollow point so it didn't expand properly.

Bingo. If you are over-penetrating, it's usually fixable by playing with your ammo. Use frangible for maximum benefit.

.45 and .40 are hands down the best ACP defense cartridges.

I like your style.

If I were carrying and expected I might need to use it, I'd carry a .40.
If I were carrying, "just in case", I'd carry a .380 PPK/s with something like Black Talons.

I don't think that's a mindset I can wrap my head around. If I'm carrying, I'm always planning on using it. If I don't have to, so much the better.

Y'all are just a little scary sometimes.

Don't be scared, we're the good guys........hehehe

As far as knock down power and round placement...all my training (LE and military) was 2 to the chest 1 to the head. That usually "stops" them.

I prefer to stop them with lead poisoning, but I guess in this economy you have a point.

A .22 can kill just as well as any other round. Shot placement is much more important though and doesnt have the immediate stopping power of a larger caliber. We recently had twins try to kill themselves at the shooting range across the street from me in a suicide pact. Both shot themselves in the head with .22s they rented. One died immediately, the other lived and walked out of the hospital about a week later.

With .22s? That sound more like a cry for help than a real attempt. I think the one that actually pulled it off might have just gotten lucky.

In the end, it's what you're willing to compromise with. I didn't buy my 10mm for using as a CCW gun, but that doesn't mean the two are mutually exclusive. You'd be surprised how many ideas you come up with to carry it even in warm weather. I also didn't buy it to be a range gun, but it still does well there too. It also works great as a hiking gun, or even as a survival weapon since you can actually hunt with it. For me, I like a large handle to hold onto, the bigger the better, but that's what suits me. If you can't be comfortable with the gun just holding it at the gun store, you sure as hell aren't going to be comfortable or accurate when it comes time to actually start using it. As you can tell, I'm not a big fan of the smaller calibers. Have you ever tried pounding in a tent stake with a spoon? There's the right tool for the job for a reason. That being said, if I was someone who just had to run a small caliber weapon, then I'd invest in two additional things as well: Combat shooting lessons, and a good backup plan. There's no better way to find out just how good/bad your junk is until to test the actual bullet and weapon combination in real world scenarios. I've heard countless stories of "high end" ammunition not doing it's job. That includes "black talon", cor-bon, gold dot and whatever other whizz-bang ultra tactical stuff you stick in your gun. The proof's in the pudding. Take it out with a stack of phonebooks and see what penetrates, what doesn't and what the bullets are actually doing(flattening,expanding, blowing apart, etc or none of the above). Someone also mentioned before about certain brands or types of bullets jamming or failing to feed. After bringing my 10mm out to shoot with Bart awhile back, I learned that it doesn't like Winchester Super-X silvertip hollowpoints. It wouldn't shoot quite a few of them. Now I don't use them. It has shot everything else flawlessly since though. You need to use your weapon enough to become familiar with it's quirks and nuances. A jammed round will kill you just as fast as leaving your gun at home or using too small of a round to get the job done. Yes you can kill a person with a bb gun, but if you think your casual shooting self is going to get that lucky, you are so wrong it's not even funny. Use a gun you can afford to miss with(not completely) because when it comes time to whip it out to shoot and you are already spooked by whatever caused it to be brought out, and the adrenaline's pumping, that golden bb theory disappears entirely.

[fotomaker]

40 cal is awesome I love how it shoots and how it feels shooting, one of the reasons you guys started using is also it because female FBI agents couldn't handle the 10mm(basically 40 cal magnum, same bullet though). I've owned .40, .45, and 10mm pistols, and .40 is a nice snappy round. I only went to my 10mm once I saw my buddy who had been nagging me about them shoot his at the range. It's basically a handheld carbine. Ridiculous flat trajectory just like the .40, but accurate out to a solid 2-300 yards. No joke, the 10 is a reach out and touch someone round.

I seem to remember reading that the .40 cal evolved from 10mm because 10mm pistols were being "shot out" in about 2000 firings.

The guns just couldn't stand up to the power of the ammo...
Thus the 10mm "short" was born.

[Ascinder]

Somewhat true, but newer designs fixed that failing. You rarely see problems with the modern Glocks and Witnesses vs. the old delta 10's and older glocks. The problem I heard about the most was the slide cracking due to hot 10mm loads. Manufacturers beefed up/redesigned the slides= problem solved. By then though, the 10's weren't mainstream and fell into handgun limbo. They are like a diamond in the rough though. If you like .40, you'll love 10! Finding affordable ammo outside of reloading can be a little tough though. It's fairly comparable with any magnum handgun ammo though. I look at it from the perspective of being able to reload it for what 9mm costs new. That way I load it up any way I want(hot, medium or mild) and with whatever bullet I want(slugs, hollowpoints, frangible, birdshot, heavy, light etc) and can even set it up subsonic if need be. I'm all about the mods

[Gizmo42]

9mm has been around for a long time and lots of supply/demand. 380 has never been as popular until recently. Thats why 9mm has always been easier to find and cheaper. If you are over penetrating with a 9mm you are using the wrong ammo. A defense round should expand (mushroom) quickly. Which provides more stopping power and decreases the likelihood of over penetration.

One of our friends just got a SR9c about 2 months ago and we tried it. We both liked it a lot. Didn't think the recoil was that bad at all.

The recoil isnt bad at all. And really its no more then the P944 .40 cal. It just feels a bit sharper. Mostly because the SR9c is much smaller and lighter (polymer frame vs aluminum) then the .40. Its much less then with an LCP .380 which hurts my hand when I fire one.

A .22 can kill just as well as any other round. Shot placement is much more important though and doesnt have the immediate stopping power of a larger caliber. We recently had twins try to kill themselves at the shooting range across the street from me in a suicide pact. Both shot themselves in the head with .22s they rented. One died immediately, the other lived and walked out of the hospital about a week later.

[stangri]

A few years ago there was a long report written by a retired coroner who listed average number of bullets of different caliber he'd found in bodies he worked on. I don't remember specifics but the summary is that you don't want anything which doesn't start with .4 as your self-defence weapon.

[FlyingV77]

5.7

[Bob Barker]

How can you rent a pistol? I've never heard of such outside of firing ranges!