Electric cars a bad idea?

[Marlin]

Today at work we were talking about electric cars. A great point was brought up. The mean gasoline tax for the nation is almost 50 cents a gallon. Say a family of 4 uses 100 gallons of gas a month. Thats 50 bucks in taxes. As cars become more efficient, less fuel use, therefore less revenue. If the idea of the fuel tax revenue was for road maintenance, we have a problem. We are talking huge sums of tax revenue lost. A fuel efficient car provides the same wear and tear on the roads as a gas guzzling big block V8. So where does the money come from? I would love to save money on fuel costs, only to pay for it on my electricity bill, or increased income tax and so on. So where does that leave us? Paying huge sums of money to new energy tycoons...big oil, big nuke, uncle sam, whatever, makes no difference to me where my money goes.
Just some food for thought.

[Grif]

Nobody said electric cars would be cheaper to run.

Tax fossil fuels more as they eventually lose popularity. On electric vehicles you can tax their road usage based on odometer readings as we all re-register our cars every year anyway.

Guess I'm not seeing a huge quandary here...

[Marlin]

Nobody said electric cars would be cheaper to run.

Tax fossil fuels more as they eventually lose popularity. On electric vehicles you can tax their road usage based on odometer readings as we all re-register our cars every year anyway.

Guess I'm not seeing a huge quandary here...

What do you do for vehicles that have broken odometers? Is it like a toll and you pay the max fee if you lose your ticket. Who checks your odometer? Why not just disable it?
Illegals do no register their cars as they are not accountable for our laws. Electricity on the other hand is something we all pay for.
Ideally, toll roads would be the best routes, you only pay for the roads you use.
As for the electric cars being better for the environment, I doubt it. Coal plants are far more dirty than our engines and those battery packs are crazy hazardous. On the other hand, once our nuke plants come online...
The hybrids hurt as well. A fender bender that would cost 1000 bucks in a regular gas guzzler may cost thousands in a hybrid since there is only one guy at the dealership that can work on them. You can't do it yourself and neither can mom and pops. That means their insurance premiums are much higher. One of my guys drives a prius, his premium is as much as my gigantic F250 which has far more damage potential than his little plastic car.

[pbkid]

A fuel efficient car provides the same wear and tear on the roads as a gas guzzling big block V8.

hmmm.... you wanna double check your logic???
do you really believe a moped causes the same amount of road damage as a tractor-trailer? (to over-exaggerate the idea of weight damaging roads)

example: for purposes of argument of damage to road, take only passenger cars. Say electric vehicles weigh 2/3 of what gas vehicles do... the damage to the road is going to be obviously greater from the gas vehicles.
Yes, 1/3 difference isnt much, but multiple that by 1000's of vehicles which cross every bump every day.... it adds up....

Now, I'm gonna anticipate your response here chris

im not saying that ALL electric vehicles are lighter than gas vehicles.... but look at the weight difference of a big block V8 (say, dodge charger motor, vehicle used to carry 4 passengers) compared to the weight of a prius motor (electric motor, used to carry the same amount of passengers as the charger)

or, even worse, replace the charger with a cadillac... weight goes up again...

2010 prius- 3042lbs. (curb GVW per toyota.com)
2010 charger- 3800lbs. (curb GVW per dodge.com)
97 cadillac deville - 4009lbs. (curb GVW per edmunds.com)

also, im not exactly a huge supporter of electric vehicles, but i like to "screw" (for lack of a family friendly word) with chris

wanna know my opinion? screw spending 30k on a prius to look like a #$%.... spend $1500 on an old honda if you want great mileage. i get almost 40mpg in my 92 acura, and i OWN it
oh, and it costs me $20 a month to insure it :P

[Grif]

Odometer tampering is very illegal already. Conventional odometers could be supplemented by other systems as backup as well. Charge/disharge cycles or total energy thruput could be measured and stored in the ECU much akin the electric meters we have on our houses. None of this is rocket science.

Yes, coal plants are dirty as hell, but we dont use that much coal anyways. Sure we have LOTS of it, but its not being used as nobody wants coal plants, and for good reason. Other alternative sources of energy exist and it will take a lot of development to make them viable, however when combined with a sensible energy strategy should be enough to fit the bill IMHO.

[Triathlete]

I am by no means an engineer...
Why do we need to charge an electric vehicle in the first place? Why can they not put electric generators on the axles, wheels, and or drive lines? As you drive the generators produce power and recharge the batteries! Self contained system. I am an f'n genious!

[Grif]

I am by no means an engineer...
Why do we need to charge an electric vehicle in the first place? Why can they not put electric generators on the axles, wheels, and or drive lines? As you drive the generators produce power and recharge the batteries! Self contained system. I am an f'n genious!

Regenerative braking systems exist in all modern electrics and hybrids. They attempt to put as much electricity back into the battery as they can by capturing the kinetic energy of the vehicle as it slows down then converting it to electricity which then helps charge the battery.

First and second laws of thermodynamics. You don't need to be an engineer, a high school education will do.

[Riff Raff]

I love Marlin to death, but I'm gonna' have to side with Peanut Butter Kid on this one for his great analogy. In addition, these new Hybrid's are just too damn expensive for what you get (although I do like the new Honda CRZ, but not the price).

For my daily driver, I'll stick with my paid-for 1980 Ford Fiesta that gets 41 MPG and can also carry 4-people just like those other cars PBK mentioned. Plus; my Fiesta is so old, it is exempt from annual license tab renewal (free tabs). Beat that, Prius!!!

[IndianaVX]

If the development of electric cars was being offered as just another car you can buy, I don't see it as a bad idea.
If it is for all of us to put big oil under, give us few selections of what we can drive, I think it's a bad idea.
Where I see the problem is the unintended consequences. The power grids, more demand for electricity, which means more power from the power plant, more pollution, battery disposal, what happens to those batteries if they leak, or catch fire?
A few years back, we replaced our furnace. We did all our homework, and got a big ole electric furnace to replace our inefficient propane furnace.
The electric co. Had all the stats that at their rates how much cheaper it was to go this route. Well it was cheaper, for a little while, then the rates climbed, no more kw usage scales, etc. Now it is not unusual to sometimes see a 600 or 700 dollar electric bill for one month.
We here in Indiana, along with many other states, DEPEND on coal. It's about all we have! So in our case, to create more electricity means burning more coal. Another drawback, for a commuter, a little Civic, prius, etc gets you to work and back fine. Should I be taxed more for having to drive a big heavy gas truck to haul tools, lumber, etc?

[Grif]

Should I be taxed more for having to drive a big heavy gas truck to haul tools, lumber, etc?

Umm.... yes?

[Marlin]

Jack, you know me oh so well...lol. I doubt the difference between 3200 and 3800 really matters for well built roads.

Those batteries have ridiculous hazardous materials and require highly specialized facilities to process.

Did you know electric vehicles were in full production in 1939? (learned that from Forza motorsports on Xbox360)

I had the great pleasure of going with my father to work on a huge solar farm in Germany in the spring. The owner came out and talked to us. This was state of the art stuff. Azimuth and horizon tracking, computer controlled for optimal efficiency. Sticker cost would take at least 20 years at current electricity rates to recoup costs. That did not include repairs, maintenance, and so on. I was flabbergasted, yes, I just used the word flabbergasted on this forum. He said it had nothing to do with environment or profit, but rather prestige. kind of like buying a 200K car. Just so you can say you have one.
As for not using coal, what does your state use? You have natural gas, coal or nuke. Nuke being magnitudes cleaner and safer for the environment. For all you anti nuke folks, FYI, the US navy has hundreds of nuclear powered ships, tooling around the world, dynamic situations, never had an accident that resulted in a civilian exceeding the federal exposure limits. As a matter of fact, my lifetime exposure is just a bit over 1 REM in 13.5 years, the federal limit was 1 REM a year until recently. I have more exposure than anyone I work with since I was involved with the USS San Francisco running aground a few years ago. Most of my exposure came from that job putting up lead shielding for x-rays of the piping.

I digress, electric cars are silly, just like smart cars and mini coopers. There are old hondas and Riff's super rare fiesta that get far better mileage, at a teeny tiny fraction of the cost. Those cars are 15-20 years old, we had the technology with conventional engines 2 decades ago!!!

My entire point to this thread was to allow people to recognize that we are angry at Big oil, yet we are going to replace it with someone else. More smoke and mirrors for liberal douche hippie environmentalists. There will always be some Big 'xxxx' to be angry at for as long as we need to transport ourselves quickly over long distances. The government cramming hybrids and electrics down our throat is going to result in horrible repercussions. Remember that 10 years from now that I called it This is all smoke and mirrors to keep the masses happy that the government is actually doing something. (president on red phone...sorry, it was the best I could do.)

[Grif]

My entire point to this thread was to allow people to recognize that we are angry at Big oil, yet we are going to replace it with someone else.

We don't need to be allowed to think by you or anyone else. We can do that ourselves, thanks.

More smoke and mirrors for liberal douche hippie environmentalists. There will always be some Big 'xxxx' to be angry at for as long as we need to transport ourselves quickly over long distances.

Yes, but it doesn't take a liberal douchebag hippie to realize that.

The government cramming hybrids and electrics down our throat is going to result in horrible repercussions.

Thank you for your considered opinion. Care for any facts to back that up? Research? Even any ideas at all? Spew accusations all you want, but without any ideas to fix the situation, you are just bitching to hear yourself bitch. Or has a teabag got stuck in your throat?

Remember that 10 years from now that I called it This is all smoke and mirrors to keep the masses happy that the government is actually doing something. (president on red phone...sorry, it was the best I could do.)

Thank you Nostradamus. But I prefer criticism to be constructive. I do not dismiss alternatives as easily as you as you seem to. Any research to keep us from suckling the tit of foreign oil is fine by me personally, but your agenda seems to be to discredit all progressive thought on the matter in lieu of the status quo, which I think we all know is not sustainable over the next few decades.

[Marlin]

We don't need to be allowed to think by you or anyone else. We can do that ourselves, thanks.

Your damn right, God bless America.

Yes, but it doesn't take a liberal douchebag hippie to realize that.

Sure, but liberal douche hippies got one of the largest solar panel fields in America shutdown because of some stupid tortoise. This was not a photovoltaic field, but rather a mirror, boiling water type facility which is far more efficient. There is so much coddling of the specialist minority, that I thought I should give em a shout out and make em feel specialer.

If I offended any liberal douche hippies with my post, get over it, you drive a VX; A very environmentally unfriendly vehicle. Burns lots of oil, horrible mpg...I would put this akin to making fun of vegans on a hunting forum. Take your seemingly self righteousness to a forum that makes sense.

Thank you for your considered opinion. Care for any facts to back that up? Research? Even any ideas at all? Spew accusations all you want, but without any ideas to fix the situation, you are just bitching to hear yourself bitch. Or has a teabag got stuck in your throat?

Ideas, lets stick to technologies we know that work. There are lots of vehicles decades old (see Brian and Jack's posts about their old cars getting incredible mileage) We don't need to dump billions on new technology just for the sake of creating something new.

Thank you Nostradamus. But I prefer criticism to be constructive. I do not dismiss alternatives as easily as you as you seem to. Any research to keep us from suckling the tit of foreign oil is fine by me personally, but your agenda seems to be to discredit all progressive thought on the matter in lieu of the status quo, which I think we all know is not sustainable over the next few decades.

Did you even read my post?! There is nothing progressive about overpriced hybrid/electric cars. They were in mass production in the 30s. We are just trading one tit for another. I am happy with my current tit, no reason for me to throw down a fortune for an inferior tit that will put me in the same situation I am in now in twenty years. Take all the hybrid/electric money and throw it at something such as hydrogen or bio fuels that actually work rather than postponing the inevitable. (some promising fuels are being researched using algae, but if that stuff gets loose into the natural environment...) An electric/hybrid car is like wrapping electrical tape around an exposed conductor. Its just a temporary fix, we are better off taking the time and money and doing it right.

WTF man, where did all this anger come from? Too much tequila? It tends to make some people angry.
This chart is cut and pasted from 2010 data presented by the US geological survey group of the top 17 oil producers in the world, the years representation is for the respective country at current usage rates per country and located in land the respective country owns. Add all these together, it is many decades of oil use...

Country Reserve life in years

Saudi Arabia 66
Iraq 142
Canada 188
Iran 95
Kuwait 110
Venezuela 100
United Arab Emirates 93
Russia 17
Kazakhstan 93
Libya 66
Nigeria 41
United States 8
China 11
Qatar 46
Algeria 15
Brazil 14
Mexico 9

For the total of these 17 nations for the world, it is a worst case scenario of 54 years. This is based on only a 50% successful recovery of the known contents. Generally, they are closer to 70-80% but for the reserves,they use a standard 50%.
This is also based on known oil fields, does not include prospective oil fields that have not been surveyed and quantified.
This is just the reserve fields, not being actively pumped. So we have a long while before gas goes away out of necessity.

[Stephen Biko]

I digress, electric cars are silly, just like smart cars and mini coopers. There are old hondas and Riff's super rare fiesta that get far better mileage, at a teeny tiny fraction of the cost. Those cars are 15-20 years old, we had the technology with conventional engines 2 decades ago!!!

No we did not. You are comparing apples to oranges. 15-20 years ago cars were 500lbs+ lighter because they didn't have all of the safety engineering that is part of modern vehicles. For example:

Curb Weights
1990 Nissan Sentra Base Model: 2156 lbs 29/36MPG
2010 Nissan Sentra Base Model w/ CVT: 2972 lbs 26/34MPG

You put one of those 1990 engines in a modern car and you won't see anything like the MPG that it got in one of those light-weight chassis of 1990.

[Marlin]

No we did not. You are comparing apples to oranges. 15-20 years ago cars were 500lbs+ lighter because they didn't have all of the safety engineering that is part of modern vehicles. For example:

Curb Weights
1990 Nissan Sentra Base Model: 2156 lbs 29/36MPG
2010 Nissan Sentra Base Model w/ CVT: 2972 lbs 26/34MPG

You put one of those 1990 engines in a modern car and you won't see anything like the MPG that it got in one of those light-weight chassis of 1990.

I think you are also missing some data. Sentras only came in a manual tranny up until about 8 years ago, the base model had no AC, power windows power locks, power trunk release and so on, things that are all standard even in the base model now. You can't compare the weight of a base model from 19 years ago to now and say its only because of safety stuff. With today's modern materials, there is no reason we can't get it down to that weight if you strip all the amenities out of it actually compare model to model.

Strange, I looked at the traffic fatalities numbers, from 94 (thats as far back as it went) to 2006, traffic deaths went up almost 10%!!! Went from 36,200 to 39,200! I wonder if that is due to speed limits going to 70mph?
Just wondering, since our vehicles got safer, yet fatalities went up.