Electric cars a bad idea?

[Marlin]

Today at work we were talking about electric cars. A great point was brought up. The mean gasoline tax for the nation is almost 50 cents a gallon. Say a family of 4 uses 100 gallons of gas a month. Thats 50 bucks in taxes. As cars become more efficient, less fuel use, therefore less revenue. If the idea of the fuel tax revenue was for road maintenance, we have a problem. We are talking huge sums of tax revenue lost. A fuel efficient car provides the same wear and tear on the roads as a gas guzzling big block V8. So where does the money come from? I would love to save money on fuel costs, only to pay for it on my electricity bill, or increased income tax and so on. So where does that leave us? Paying huge sums of money to new energy tycoons...big oil, big nuke, uncle sam, whatever, makes no difference to me where my money goes.
Just some food for thought.

[Grif]

Nobody said electric cars would be cheaper to run.

Tax fossil fuels more as they eventually lose popularity. On electric vehicles you can tax their road usage based on odometer readings as we all re-register our cars every year anyway.

Guess I'm not seeing a huge quandary here...

[Marlin]

Nobody said electric cars would be cheaper to run.

Tax fossil fuels more as they eventually lose popularity. On electric vehicles you can tax their road usage based on odometer readings as we all re-register our cars every year anyway.

Guess I'm not seeing a huge quandary here...

What do you do for vehicles that have broken odometers? Is it like a toll and you pay the max fee if you lose your ticket. Who checks your odometer? Why not just disable it?
Illegals do no register their cars as they are not accountable for our laws. Electricity on the other hand is something we all pay for.
Ideally, toll roads would be the best routes, you only pay for the roads you use.
As for the electric cars being better for the environment, I doubt it. Coal plants are far more dirty than our engines and those battery packs are crazy hazardous. On the other hand, once our nuke plants come online...
The hybrids hurt as well. A fender bender that would cost 1000 bucks in a regular gas guzzler may cost thousands in a hybrid since there is only one guy at the dealership that can work on them. You can't do it yourself and neither can mom and pops. That means their insurance premiums are much higher. One of my guys drives a prius, his premium is as much as my gigantic F250 which has far more damage potential than his little plastic car.

[pbkid]

A fuel efficient car provides the same wear and tear on the roads as a gas guzzling big block V8.

hmmm.... you wanna double check your logic???
do you really believe a moped causes the same amount of road damage as a tractor-trailer? (to over-exaggerate the idea of weight damaging roads)

example: for purposes of argument of damage to road, take only passenger cars. Say electric vehicles weigh 2/3 of what gas vehicles do... the damage to the road is going to be obviously greater from the gas vehicles.
Yes, 1/3 difference isnt much, but multiple that by 1000's of vehicles which cross every bump every day.... it adds up....

Now, I'm gonna anticipate your response here chris

im not saying that ALL electric vehicles are lighter than gas vehicles.... but look at the weight difference of a big block V8 (say, dodge charger motor, vehicle used to carry 4 passengers) compared to the weight of a prius motor (electric motor, used to carry the same amount of passengers as the charger)

or, even worse, replace the charger with a cadillac... weight goes up again...

2010 prius- 3042lbs. (curb GVW per toyota.com)
2010 charger- 3800lbs. (curb GVW per dodge.com)
97 cadillac deville - 4009lbs. (curb GVW per edmunds.com)

also, im not exactly a huge supporter of electric vehicles, but i like to "screw" (for lack of a family friendly word) with chris

wanna know my opinion? screw spending 30k on a prius to look like a #$%.... spend $1500 on an old honda if you want great mileage. i get almost 40mpg in my 92 acura, and i OWN it
oh, and it costs me $20 a month to insure it :P

[Grif]

Odometer tampering is very illegal already. Conventional odometers could be supplemented by other systems as backup as well. Charge/disharge cycles or total energy thruput could be measured and stored in the ECU much akin the electric meters we have on our houses. None of this is rocket science.

Yes, coal plants are dirty as hell, but we dont use that much coal anyways. Sure we have LOTS of it, but its not being used as nobody wants coal plants, and for good reason. Other alternative sources of energy exist and it will take a lot of development to make them viable, however when combined with a sensible energy strategy should be enough to fit the bill IMHO.

[Triathlete]

I am by no means an engineer...
Why do we need to charge an electric vehicle in the first place? Why can they not put electric generators on the axles, wheels, and or drive lines? As you drive the generators produce power and recharge the batteries! Self contained system. I am an f'n genious!

[Riff Raff]

I love Marlin to death, but I'm gonna' have to side with Peanut Butter Kid on this one for his great analogy. In addition, these new Hybrid's are just too damn expensive for what you get (although I do like the new Honda CRZ, but not the price).

For my daily driver, I'll stick with my paid-for 1980 Ford Fiesta that gets 41 MPG and can also carry 4-people just like those other cars PBK mentioned. Plus; my Fiesta is so old, it is exempt from annual license tab renewal (free tabs). Beat that, Prius!!!

[Bob Barker]

What are people going to do with the batteries after they "die" in all the electric cars? Aren't those full of really nasty stuff?

[IndianaVX]

If the development of electric cars was being offered as just another car you can buy, I don't see it as a bad idea.
If it is for all of us to put big oil under, give us few selections of what we can drive, I think it's a bad idea.
Where I see the problem is the unintended consequences. The power grids, more demand for electricity, which means more power from the power plant, more pollution, battery disposal, what happens to those batteries if they leak, or catch fire?
A few years back, we replaced our furnace. We did all our homework, and got a big ole electric furnace to replace our inefficient propane furnace.
The electric co. Had all the stats that at their rates how much cheaper it was to go this route. Well it was cheaper, for a little while, then the rates climbed, no more kw usage scales, etc. Now it is not unusual to sometimes see a 600 or 700 dollar electric bill for one month.
We here in Indiana, along with many other states, DEPEND on coal. It's about all we have! So in our case, to create more electricity means burning more coal. Another drawback, for a commuter, a little Civic, prius, etc gets you to work and back fine. Should I be taxed more for having to drive a big heavy gas truck to haul tools, lumber, etc?

[Grif]

I am by no means an engineer...
Why do we need to charge an electric vehicle in the first place? Why can they not put electric generators on the axles, wheels, and or drive lines? As you drive the generators produce power and recharge the batteries! Self contained system. I am an f'n genious!

Regenerative braking systems exist in all modern electrics and hybrids. They attempt to put as much electricity back into the battery as they can by capturing the kinetic energy of the vehicle as it slows down then converting it to electricity which then helps charge the battery.

First and second laws of thermodynamics. You don't need to be an engineer, a high school education will do.

[Grif]

Should I be taxed more for having to drive a big heavy gas truck to haul tools, lumber, etc?

Umm.... yes?

[Marlin]

Jack, you know me oh so well...lol. I doubt the difference between 3200 and 3800 really matters for well built roads.

Those batteries have ridiculous hazardous materials and require highly specialized facilities to process.

Did you know electric vehicles were in full production in 1939? (learned that from Forza motorsports on Xbox360)

I had the great pleasure of going with my father to work on a huge solar farm in Germany in the spring. The owner came out and talked to us. This was state of the art stuff. Azimuth and horizon tracking, computer controlled for optimal efficiency. Sticker cost would take at least 20 years at current electricity rates to recoup costs. That did not include repairs, maintenance, and so on. I was flabbergasted, yes, I just used the word flabbergasted on this forum. He said it had nothing to do with environment or profit, but rather prestige. kind of like buying a 200K car. Just so you can say you have one.
As for not using coal, what does your state use? You have natural gas, coal or nuke. Nuke being magnitudes cleaner and safer for the environment. For all you anti nuke folks, FYI, the US navy has hundreds of nuclear powered ships, tooling around the world, dynamic situations, never had an accident that resulted in a civilian exceeding the federal exposure limits. As a matter of fact, my lifetime exposure is just a bit over 1 REM in 13.5 years, the federal limit was 1 REM a year until recently. I have more exposure than anyone I work with since I was involved with the USS San Francisco running aground a few years ago. Most of my exposure came from that job putting up lead shielding for x-rays of the piping.

I digress, electric cars are silly, just like smart cars and mini coopers. There are old hondas and Riff's super rare fiesta that get far better mileage, at a teeny tiny fraction of the cost. Those cars are 15-20 years old, we had the technology with conventional engines 2 decades ago!!!

My entire point to this thread was to allow people to recognize that we are angry at Big oil, yet we are going to replace it with someone else. More smoke and mirrors for liberal douche hippie environmentalists. There will always be some Big 'xxxx' to be angry at for as long as we need to transport ourselves quickly over long distances. The government cramming hybrids and electrics down our throat is going to result in horrible repercussions. Remember that 10 years from now that I called it This is all smoke and mirrors to keep the masses happy that the government is actually doing something. (president on red phone...sorry, it was the best I could do.)

[RickOKC]

Well, I'm all for electric vehicles - more gas for ME! Seriously though, as much as I am a fan of internal combustion, change doesn't scare me so I've also been drooling over the idea of something like a Tesla S sedan ever since I first heard about it. (Wow, that thing is gorgeous!) I think I would enjoy the heck out of something like that every bit as much as I enjoy my VX & my Mustang GT.

I'm a cynic, too, so I wouldn't be surprised to find myself soon paying a more in gasoline taxes ("we have to offset the lost revenue")… and also start paying more in electricity taxes to offset that (thereby subsidizing those with electric cars when I don't yet own one.)

I have to call foul on the Prius vs. Deville comparison. Instead of talking about the weight of a new "eco-warrior" compact car vs. a 13-year-old large sized boat, I think comparing the 2010 Lotus Elise to the 2010 Tesla Roadster is much more fair and illustrates the spirit of the original comment. The Tesla's weight is 2,690 lbs and it is based on the 1,984 lb Lotus. Compare function-to-function fairly and, until technology catches up, which type of vehicle is really the heaviest? 2011 Ford Escape: 3,299 lbs / 2011 Ford Escape Hybrid: 3,669 lbs. Sorry, there may be other vehicles that confirm batteries make 'em heavier or could contradict that - I just picked the first two examples that came to mind.

(source: Edmunds.com; all weights listed above are curb weights)

[Marlin]

I have to call foul on the Prius vs. Deville comparison. Instead of talking about the weight of a new "eco-warrior" compact car vs. a 13-year-old large sized boat, I think comparing the 2010 Lotus Elise to the 2010 Tesla Roadster is much more fair and illustrates the spirit of the original comment. The Tesla's weight is 2,690 lbs and it is based on the 1,984 lb Lotus. Compare function-to-function fairly and, until technology catches up, which type of vehicle is really the heaviest. 2011 Ford Escape: 3,299 lbs / 2011 Ford Escape Hybrid: 3,669 lbs. Sorry, there may be other vehicles that confirm batteries make 'em heavier or could contradict that - I just picked the first two examples that came to mind.

(source: Edmunds.com; all weights listed above are curb weights)

Good point, someone driving an deville is not likely to drop 30k on any vehicle, lot less some tiny electric car. Never thought of that approach...

[IndianaVX]

It's hard to type Full thoughts on this phone, but following on marlins line,
I haven't checked lately, but I don't think there are permits being allowed for any nuke plants in the U.S.
The same goes for hydro power due to some regulation about daming rivers.
And the coal gassification plants which are state of the art plants will never conform to the new regulations being put on them almost weekly.
Even windmills have generators on them for when the wind isn't blowing and those generators run on fossil fuels.