A real hero

[transio]

Originally posted by Mr. I-MAN
Maybe you'd like to hear about a real American... a genuine hero... [who] killed more than 20 and wounded at least as many more.

Ah, yes, Charles Manson, wasn't it?

When will these fools realize that nationality is nothing more than a degree of separation between people. It's a line by which we can divide humanity and mold our ethics to make it "ok" to murder other people just because they're different. How pathetic.

Proud to be an American ???

HELL NO!!

I'm proud to be sympathetic enough not to separate myself from the rest of humanity.

THAT'S something to be proud of!

[SGT.BATGUANO]

I don't have time to be lured into a tangled web of immature personal insults.


I will say this, serving your country honorably/ working for the government or blindly agreeing with everything it does are entirely different things. Ask John Kerry.

That's the thing here, that we can agree to disagree in this country, and frequently do.

You don't want a bunch of lemmings, do you?

Now I'm off to abuse my AR-15, Glock 45 and M1-A.

Have a nice Holiday and remember it's meaning.

Salute!

[BaM*BaM]

We can all stand very tall and proud about our great servicemen and women of the US's armed forces. They have once again stood up to the challenge that our nation has called on them to perform.

It is not a question of these great men and women ever failing us.
..
The question is that in a democracy, it is the responsibility of every voter, to choose, and provide competent leadership for it's great service people.

In this endeavor, we, the American public, have FAILED COMPLETELY everyone of our own great and heroic men and women, who wear the USA uniform.

Within this Iraqi War, our leadership, has betrayed and stained everything that the USA has symbolized to the rest of the free world for many, many generations.

We have now become the most hated, and disrespected nation in that same 'free' world that we used to lead with dignity, compassion, and honesty. And we have added great strength and justification to the cause of our enemies

Such a result did not happen easily. It took an unprecedented level of immaturity of world views, a fool's righteous arrogance, and a complete inability to re evaluate their whole plan when it became so painfully obvious to everyone, that the fundamental assumptions they made for the Iraqi war , were completely wrong.

(Does anyone here think that in the new Iraq, their next generation of heroes is going to be the few people who helped the invading Americans, or the people who actively fought a war of resistance against their foreign invader? Look at France during it's occupation in W.W.II, if you need a clue. They weren't fighting about one type of government over another... They were fighting to rid themselves of a foreign invader! Just as you and I would do.)

[azskyrider]

There is a documentary on video that I think most will find interesting. It is called the FOG of WAR. R. McNamara was the Secetary of Defense for JFK. It is interesting now that R MAC reviews those decisions today and makes you wonder who the decision makers are.

Now my view on Iraq and past WW1 and WWII are apples and oranges.

The new documentary Fahrenheit 911 and even now there is a lot of controversy. Albeit that the Moore is not a fan of the war nor the Bush administration.

Do I think the USA is the best country to live in? Yes, but like ROME we are all Romans who should learn from History.

Politics is the true destroyer of nations.

Fog of War trailer

Fog of War - web site

Some interesting quotes not from the movie but from both sides of war vs. peace. The last quote is what is happening today and in centuries before.

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
Nazi leader, Hermann Goering,
( before he was sentenced to death at the Nuremberg trials.)


"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator."
-GW Bush
( during a photo-op with Congressional leaders on 12/18/2000. )

"I am strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes. The moral effect should be good. . . and it would spread a lively terror."
Winston Churchill
Commenting on the British use of poison gas against the Iraqis after World War I

"No triumph of peace can equal the armed triumph of war. In strict confidence . . . I should welcome almost any war, for I think this country needs one."
Theodore Roosevelt


"The pioneers of a warless world are the young men (and women) who refuse military service."
Albert Einstein


"I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, as only one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidiy ." (and )
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, from those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower

"Military power wins battles, but spiritual power wins wars."
General George C. Marshall, ( 1880 - 1959 )

[dutchie]

Do I think the USA is the best country to live in? Yes,

this is now the second time I read this, please explain this "euro trash" what this statement is based on? And who needs convincing?

I went to the States, and had a great time, do I wanna live there? Well in the right neighbourhood, with the right job, with the right friends and a proper health insurance...yeah why not.

I went to Mexico, and had a great time, do I wanna live there? Well in the right neighbourhood, with the right job, with the right friends and a proper health insurance...yeah why not.

I went to the Czech republic, and had a great time, do I wanna live there? Well in the right neighbourhood, with the right job, with the right friends and a proper health insurance...yeah why not.

It's nice if you like the place where you live, it means you did well, you're not scraping at the bottom of the barrel, don't live from hand outs and can afford a computer to write this on...does this make your country "the best to live in", well if you think so..than you're just beyond help and you should help yourself to a big salad with one island dressing, topped with ignorance bits

[azskyrider]

Dutchie,
I was not bashing Euro and I was not trying to display myself as "GO USA!"

I should have clarified my statement. I was referencing the opportunity to learn from other people. I for one am not from the USA as I am not a Native American. The USA like all nations have their politics and their faults. Here is what I meant.

I have had the honor to meet many common and political people from around the world. If one is open minded then that person can understand what makes them the way they are before they return. The more one learns from their friends or foes without bias then the more that person can better grow and apply what he has learn from them.

That opportunity I believe is greater in the USA than in any other country for the simple fact that there are more different races studying,living , and working here from other countries. That is why I said that I believe living in the USA is the best place to live.

Best way to think about it is to think about wanting to know about cars. What better way to learn and understand from different ideas and concepts then to go to a AUTO show and meet first hand with different automakers. You take those ideas and improve your own company. But first you must be open minded to change and go to the place where the greatest number of different automakers will be attending.

[Dallas4u]

Originally posted by azskyrider
I for one am not from the USA as I am not a Native American.

What?

[WyrreJ]

Originally posted by azskyrider
That opportunity I believe is greater in the USA than in any other country for the simple fact that there are more different races studying,living , and working here from other countries. That is why I said that I believe living in the USA is the best place to live.

You're talking about the "great American mixing-pot" that we all learned about in kindergarten. That and the "give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses." Some of us really have that meme embedded deep in our psyche. But Osama has provided "our leaders" with a great opportunity to destory it, and they are doing what they can. Don't count on the USA remaining so great for long, without fresh blood we'll continue to grow more and more inward looking and stagnate.

[technocoy]

to an extent, and i hope that everyone has put there differences aside today, and remembered those who have fallen to give us this opportunity to discuss, disagree and come together. and i think that goes for all nationalities, races, religions and creeds.

i enjoy being apart of this board, and appreciate you all. i think, everyone here should try and take at least one thing from each point of view, and think about it further. it may make you grow.

cheers,
david

[transio]

Originally posted by SGT.BATGUANO
I don't have time to be lured into a tangled web of immature personal insults.

Oh, like whipping out the word "immature" isn't a personal insult? I know you're pulling out your trump card on this one... working it so you can state your point of view without recourse or retort, but it ain't working on me. You seem like an intelligent guy, but I strongly disagree with much of what you believe. AND I think I can convince you (or maybe someone else?) otherwise.

I will say this, serving your country honorably/ working for the government or blindly agreeing with everything it does are entirely different things. Ask John Kerry.

Err, yeah. WELL. This is where I disagree with you. One is executed intelligently and one obliviously, but BOTH serve the same SEPARATIST, NATIONALISTIC attitude that is keeping this world at arms. There's no need for nations in this stage of the history of mankind. All they do is segregate us and eliminate proper distribution of resources, wealth, and jobs, which in the end leads to WAR. It's an inefficient process and is completely unnecessary given the ability to travel and communicate across the world with such ease. For the first time ever, we can feasibly implement universal governmental, economic, educational, and other social systems. So what's stopping us? You guessed it... the richer nations would suffer a bit for it, and humans are too greedy to care about the overall betterment of the world. They want betterment of their individual life.

That's the thing here, that we can agree to disagree in this country, and frequently do.

I'm saying that every human on earth deserves the same opportunities in life no matter where they live. Is that what you disagree with? Tell people in Cuba and Iraq that their pain, anguish, and imminent death is meaningless to America because we have the right to disagree that it matters. We have the right to build that wall around us and ignore the suffering of those on the outside and keep all the riches inside. That's the great right to obliviousness that is called "nationalism".

You don't want a bunch of lemmings, do you?

Lemmings would be preferable, yes. Lemmings don't war with eachother.

Now I'm off to abuse my AR-15, Glock 45 and M1-A.

Yeah, go arm yourself against the rest of the world. That's your right as an American. That is the same attitude that made this country so great ("great" means "big", afterall, not "good", ya know... something can very well be great AND bad), but big walls or whatever, they're gonna tumble. It's gotta happen sooner or later. Better sooner than later, I say.

Have a nice Holiday and remember it's meaning.

This holiday is about remembering those fallen in combat. Specifically, Americans who've died serving this country, but that's a meaningless reminder of tribe mentality - how people will kill eachother just to associate with a cultural, social, or ethnically unique tribe. America is so funny that way, because our tribe isn't unique in any way. We associate with Americans with this illusion of "true americans" being people like ourselves... blonde and blue irish, or latin immigrants, or black or whatever we are... but LIKE us. Other americans aren't REALLY americans... they're just the people we allow to live here in our great country... and who don't really deserve the lifestyle this country affords people (because they're not like us). And they piss us off! LOL @ us that we have sub-segregation based upon race, religion, or just culture. We are truly pathetic. We can't even execute tribe mentality properly.

How better to remember the dead soldiers of the world than to LEARN from their deaths ?!? It's MEANINGLESS to die for a nation. A nation is nothing. It's an invisible line. People on the other side of the line are the same... they're people. Work out your differences and erase the line. Don't kill them and stretch your line over into their former territory!!! It's meaningless !!! Look at Europe... they've made the biggest leap forward by homogenizing their currencies. How smart are they?! We should follow their lead! Believe me, it would eliminate a LOT of (if not ALL) war if the world had one centralized economy!

I hope someone gets my point and agrees with it. This crap about nationalism is really peeving me lately. I'm so sick of people who support war because they think it's a good thing. In case you reading this are one of those people, this is directed at you. Breaking stuff is bad, braniac. Why don't you total your Vehicross so your insurance company can pay to have it suped up? Get a brain.

[WyrreJ]

I disagree with you transio. Here's why: Ever get a virus on your PC? Know somebody who has? Maybe some people who've had been infected numerous times? Are you running anti-virus software?

If you answered yes to any of those, then you know why a single unified world economy/culture is a bad thing. Diversity brings resiliance, lack of diversity means shared vulnerabilities. Since 95% or so of the world's PCs run MS Windows, that means that 95% of world's PCs all have the same weaknesses and the last 5+ years of weekly, if not daily, virus attacks that collectively waste hundreds of billions of dollars of productivity is a pretty strong argument for diversification.

This theory isn't only applicable to silicon and electrons. You see it in nature every day where there are multiple species that overlap, but rarely duplicate their niches. It is a time-proven, even evolutionary, method for life to survive, even great disasters.

So, while modern tribalism may seem archaic, the solution you propose is the equivalent of "putting all your eggs in one basket." Sure, you can then watch that basket VERY closely, but all it takes for one serious "infection" (economic, biological, climatic, memetic, whatever) to get past the watchers and we could see our entire civilization laid to waste.

Don't mistake this position for an argument in favor of pointless warfare, but you can take it for a tacit acceptance that some deaths, even some truely senseless ones, are necessary to maintain the balance and robustness of our society in the long term.

PS. I think you'll find you are in agreement with the Sarge more than you may realize.

[transio]

Wyrre,

You're comparing totally unrelated entities. How does diversity make government better? Diversity in business, technology, genetics is a good thing, but in government??? Come on, think about it. All it does is create nationalism and disparity of wealth. Believe me, I've thought about it a lot.

The only issue that could arise in singularity of government is homogenization of culture. That can be avoided to some extent, however, through physical separation, which occurs anyway naturally. Anyhow, the culture of the world is homogenizing itself as it is. They're building a Disney World in China. I've got a sushi restaurant within walking distance of my house, where I can eat with sticks sitting on the floor. It's entropy of the system of culture. We can deal with it.

Anyhow, please explain (with a real-world example) how diversity of government makes the world better. I don't see any value-adds, only negatives (such as war, poverty, and opression).

[transio]

Originally posted by WyrreJ
PS. I think you'll find you are in agreement with the Sarge more than you may realize.

Yeah, I know... but this is a debate, after all.

[WyrreJ]

Originally posted by transio
You're comparing totally unrelated entities. How does diversity make government better? Diversity in business, technology, genetics is a good thing, but in government???

First off, you mentioned the Euro. That is something other than government - a number of countries have directly tied the value of their money to the US dollar, which is almost the same thing (except the balance between the dollar and pesos or the yen is a bit more uneven than the euro's distribution of influence). Single economic systems can crash and crash hard. We are already part way there today even without a unified currency. Remember the hedge fund bailout a couple of years ago, the one that was so overly leveraged we would have probably seen a real, old-style, but world-wide, recession if it had not been bailed out?

As for arguing against a unified government, that is trivially easy. One word that represents hundreds of similar situations on a smaller scale - Hitler. There's lot of other reasons having to do with centralized control, etc. But it all comes down to diversity breeds strength and resilience, monocultures do not, if fact I'd be willing to be that they can not. Although proving a negative is always difficult if not impossible. Disproving it isn't.

[transio]

Hitler was not a product of a universal government. He may have wanted to dominate the world, but he didn't. Had he succeeded, who knows? Let's take example of successful world government into account: The Roman Empire. Granted, they were very war-mongering people and enslaved most of the cultures they assimilated, but look at what they accomplished with their universal government... they established systems of commerce, travel, health, and labor that outshined the subsequent 2 thousand years of history dominated by war and separatist nationalistic idiocy. The Roman Empire was the most advanced, structured society of history relative to its time. I'm not saying that everything about it was good. There's nothing good about slavery or killing. However, a universal monetary system and government are good things. Rome has proven that.

Re: hedge funds, you're still comparing apples with oranges.