Bilstein Shocks Info

[VR4-Quest]

Transio, are they equivalent or softer/stiffer than stock? I think the question we all want to know (those looking for replacement shocks) is if they will performe just as well as stock (mainly the exceptional handling and stiffness the OE KYB's provide). I tried the Rancho 9000's on the 9 setting and they are still softer than stock and too soft for my tastes.

I have had yet another front shock go bad, this time, one that was replace just 12,000 miles ago (covered by warranty at the time, but not anymore), so I need a good stiff aftermarket shock!

Thanks!

[Reg Hinnant]

Mike,
Hotsauce told me that the Bilsteins were almost as stiff as the original shocks but not as responsive. He had the H2's on front. He was also concerned about the life span of the Bilsteins.
He had Ranchos before and had the same problem as you.

I'm afraid that its just not possible to find a $60.00 shock that is as good as the $350.00 originals. Nor designed to match this vehicles unusual characteristics.

[transio]

I can't compare the Bilstein H1's with stock, because my stocks were shot in the back when I got the VX, and I swapped out all 4 at once.

I can, however, say that the VX is EXTREMELY responsive, and EXTREMELY stiff. with these shocks on. I'm 100% satisfied with them.

I keep taking corners a little harder to see if they'll give a little, but they don't. My feet stay planted firmly. I feel like I'm driving a big, heav sports car.

EDIT: Reg, I think you should try these babies on for size. They may shock you! (pun intended)

[Reg Hinnant]

Steve, Sorry if I sounded a bit negative!

Believe me, I would love to be shocked close to the originals, at 1/4 the price! heh heh

Maybe the H1's in front are a good answer; I would like to know Hotsauces thoughts on them.

It’s hard to keep putting money down and being disappointed.

[transio]

Reg, all I can say is if you're ever in FL, stop by and I'll let you try her out and decide for yourself how the ride is!

[VR4-Quest]

I'm so tempted to try these, maybe I'll order one like I did with the Ranchos and see how they stack up to stock, I want something as stiff or stiffer.

[VR4-Quest]

Transio,
were did you get your Bilsteins, especially the H1 fronts, seems all the online places only have the less stiff H2 listed for the front Tropper application?

Hotsauce, have you evaluated the stiffer H1 fronts (your comments where that the Bilstein set up is almost as stiff as stock, maybe the H1 fronts will make it as stiff?

Thanks guys!

[transio]

Originally posted by VR4-Quest
Transio, were did you get your Bilsteins

I got them from DeNunzio Racing:

http://www.denunzioracing.com/bilstein/suv_isuzu.htm

[SlowPro48]

Originally posted by transio


<<<snip>>> #1
That means that whatever happens inside doesn't matter.

<<<snip>>> #2
The shocks are in compression, with a pin joint at either end. The vertical force gets translated along the axis of the shock absorber, which then pushes back with a vertical AND horizontal load. The horizontal load gets absorbed by the wheel's mounting bracket (and whatever assembly that is attached to). Because the shock absorber is at an angle, it has to handle not only the vertical load applied by the road, but the horizontal loads created by the fact that it's angled. Essentially, it makes the shock work harder than it would in a vertical mounting position.

<<<snip>>> #3
Additionally, it's not making the shock travel less. That's a misconception. The shock actually has to travel MORE for the same amount of wheel travel.

<<<snip>>> #4
I don't see one benefit to having the shocks mounted this way.

Well I just logged on here to ask a stupid engine question but now I've seen this so it looks like I'll have to run my mouth some more. Please forgive me - I'm not trying to start an argument - but it seems to me that some of your logic is 100% backwards from the way I see things! What up with that???

Here are my responses to your points as quoted above:

1. Actually, whatever happens inside is the ONLY thing that matters as far as force transmitted by the shock. The force vector diagrams you provided apply to solid rods, etc. But our shocks are not solid.

Just forget all that vector stuff and do this little gedanken experiment. Envision a shock in which there is no oil - say it's brand new and comes with a couple different weights of oil and you just haven't decided which viscosity to use therefore you haven't filled it yet - so there is NO damping. And the pistons, rod, seals, etc are all made of Unobtanium, a new alloy that is completely frictionless. You're holding this trick $5000 shock in your hot little hands - just marvelling at how easily it slides in and out. How much force does this take? Practically none! There's no damping and no friction so all your hands feel is a wee bit of inertia as you accelerate the mass of the shock body.

If you mount the shocks on the VX like this how much force will they transmit from the axle to the frame when you whack that big speedbump at the mall? NONE!!! There's nothing going on in that shock. It's all spring and no shock, baby! The VX soaks that bump right up - but then it proceeds to pogo your ***** into the next lane and you almost sideswipe a bluehair in a Fleetwood Brougham. You decide you better put some oil in those babies. You take them off and fill them to the proper level with the lightest oil. You're compressing and expanding the shock - working the bubbles out - you feel the damping now and you notice when you push as hard as you can it takes about 4 seconds to completely collapse the shock. This pectoral workout reminds you of when you were a kid and got hold of your sister's Mark Eden Bust Developer. Then you discovered the instruction booklet with those pictures of June Wilkinson......

Whoa! Major derailment there! Get that thought train back on the tracks. On with the gedanken! So - you slap the shocks back on, hit the same speedbump and notice it still soaks the bump up pretty good but there's also still a lot of bouncing afterwards. Rides kind of like that Fleetwood you almost hit. So you decide to use the thicker oil to slow down the rebound. It'll stiffen up the compression damping too. This time when you're working the bubbles out it kind of reminds you of your dad's Bullworker. You're pushing as hard as you can and it takes a good 10 seconds to collapse the shock. You're thinking man this is going to be a stiff ride. When I hit the bump this time the shock is going to put up a fight. There's going to be some major damping going on. It's not going to collapse easily. It's going to transmit a lot of force from the axle to the frame.

Do you get where I'm going with this? What goes on inside the shock DOES matter. If you don't get it then take the gedanken one step further. Say you're still thinking about June Wilkinson when it comes time to change the shock oil. You're distracted and you fill them with 90W gear oil so they hardly move - no better yet - you're so distracted you fill them with some epoxy resin you had mixed up and set aside for another project. It sets up and by the time you get the shocks installed on the VX they are basically solid rods. ***In other words, they are what you depict in your vector diagram!***

NOW what happens when you hit that speed bump? No spring action at all! The shocks transmit ALL the force. Depending on how fast you hit and the slope of the speedbump, that force approaches infinity and either the axle, the frame or the shocks will yield as they try to accelerate the 4000lb VX against gravity at an impossible rate. Get it? As far as force transmitted by the shock, what happens inside is the ONLY thing that matters.

2. The shock is compressed in one plane and, as you noted, is mounted on pins at both ends. The pins are perpendicular to the plane of motion - like a bicycle wheel and axle. The shock body halves are therefore free to rotate as the shock is compressed and so the shock doesn't see a vertical or horizontal component per se. The shock just feels squished along its axis and that's all it knows.

3. Nope. Shock at an angle will travel less. Do another thought experiment. Think of a dirt bike swingarm with shock straight up and down, mounted at the axle. One inch of wheel travel compresses the shock 1 inch. Now lay it over as far as it will go - that's right - parallel with the swingarm! Hey! The wheel's moving up and down but the shock's not being compressed at all!!!

4. Uh, let's see.... I've got it! A real world demonstration! Show up at the Swamp Fox enduro (1/16/05, Charleston, SC) and I will locate a vintage bike like maybe a 1966 Maico with straight up and down shocks for you to ride. After 70 miles of sand whoops with 4" of suspension travel I bet you will see the benefit to lay-down shocks....

[SkidPlate]

I had the H1's installed this weekend and I have to say I am impressed. They are VERY close to stock performance.

My stock shocks were starting to go after three years of owning the VX, the front left was actually blown, and these Bilsteins brought it back to the handling I remember. First thing I said when I left the garage "now this is the truck I bought"!

I would highly recommend these to anyone looking for a reasonably priced shock replacement with damn near stock performance. Once again, the model numbers are:
Bilstein
F: B46-1738-H1
R: B46-1739-H1

[transio]

SkidPlate, glad to hear it!!! I love the H1's too!

[transio]

SlowPro,

Don't think of it as "argumentative". If we learn something from this conversation, it has value.

Originally posted by SlowPro48
1. Actually, whatever happens inside is the ONLY thing that matters as far as force transmitted by the shock. The force vector diagrams you provided apply to solid rods, etc. But our shocks are not solid.

I was under the impression that a dynamic system acts like a static system at any given instant in time. In that case, wouldn't the force diagram apply at that instant? Also, wouldn't what happens inside be dependant on the force applied?

2. The shock is compressed in one plane and, as you noted, is mounted on pins at both ends... The shock just feels squished along its axis and that's all it knows.

That's my point. The shock is taking the force of the vertical load and transferring a diagonal force, which contains vertical AND horizontal loads. Then, the horizontal member applies a back-load to balance it out. Overall, you're being less efficient because you're adding horizontal loads. At 45 degrees, those loads equal the verticals.

3. Nope. Shock at an angle will travel less.

This is a matter of geometry. Assuming that the shocks are mounted at the same relative point on the axle, the shock at an angle will always have less vertical travel. This is because for every inch of UP travel, the same shock also has to travel SIDEWAYS. Think of a 45 degree triangle. the hypotenuse (angled member) is always longer. A straight line is always most efficient.

4. A real world demonstration! Show up at the Swamp Fox enduro (1/16/05, Charleston, SC) and... you will see the benefit to lay-down shocks....

This is highly possible. Ideal math doesn't always work best in the real world. If you tell me that lay-down shocks out-perform vertical mounts hands-down, I'll believe you, but I'm just trying to figure out why!

[SlowPro48]

Alright I give. When you start talking about hippopotomuses I get all confused. I was thinking regardless of all that geometry stuff, the shock can only transmit as much force as the damper assembly will allow. Seems like even if you apply a million pounds to the axle at the rate of 1 inch per second for 3 seconds - if the shim stack and oil in the shock only resists with a force of 25 pounds at that rate then that's all that will be transmitted to the frame - 25lbs - no matter what the angle of the shock. But maybe I'm wrong. It sure has happened before!!!

Actually I think this started as a discussion about what was causing premature failure of the shocks so who cares about force transmitted, right? The horizontal and vertical loads you mention - no matter what they are - apply only to the pins attaching the shock to the frame and axle housing. The shock rotates around a pin at either end and thus will only be subject to axial loads. This is a good thing because the shock isn't designed to be subject to side loads. If the bushings are seizing on the pins for some reason then that would subject the shock to side loads and may cause premature wear of the rod/seal. While unlikely, I guess it could happen. Might be something to check out though!

Are the shocks all leaking or are they just going soft on you without losing fluid? Are the rods being scored?

Oddly enough, just yesterday I saw a shock that had been subjected to a side load. My suspension guy invited me over to his place at the lake to do some jet-skiing and he showed me a shock off a KTM. It was a White Power PDS shock - a linkless type - so it has to be laid way over to get the needed 12 inches of travel. The rod was snapped clean in two. It didn't have anything to do with the angle of the shock though. The bike had been crashed at the last hare scramble and it went down on a pointy rock, with the shock taking the brunt of the hit. It was working fine right up to that time. All laid over... Just like on millions of other motorcycles... and ATVs.... and off-road racing trucks, buggies and rails... Formula 1 cars... IMSA GT cars... and even on my trusty old 1982 GMC 3/4 ton truck with over 300,000 miles on it. Hmm... Must be SOME advantage to angled shocks...

Calculate on THAT a while!

[SlowPro48]

Originally posted by SkidPlate
I had the H1's installed this weekend and I have to say I am impressed. They are VERY close to stock performance.

My stock shocks were starting to go after three years of owning the VX, the front left was actually blown, and these Bilsteins brought it back to the handling I remember. First thing I said when I left the garage "now this is the truck I bought"!

I would highly recommend these to anyone looking for a reasonably priced shock replacement with damn near stock performance. Once again, the model numbers are:
Bilstein
F: B46-1738-H1
R: B46-1739-H1

What are you going to do with your old shocks?

[SkidPlate]

Originally posted by SlowPro48
What are you going to do with your old shocks?

Actually, I left the old shocks at the garage for them to dispose of. I really don't think they were worth much, if anything, especially now that I see how the Bilstiens perform. Like I said, one of the fronts were blown and I'm sure the others were not too far behind.

If I had thought someone would be interested in them, I would have kept them.

I can understand why you may want to stick with the old shocks. I was aprehensive of getting rid of them myself. I thought, how could some monotube shock perform as well as these? Well, I was wrong. I think you would be surprised with how well the Bilsteins work. Do yourself a favor and give them a try, you won't regret it.

-Rob