Kerry has conceded

[BaM*BaM]

[jimbo]

Raque Thomas - I respect your opinion and you are most certainly right about all of the articles having bias. This does not mean that they are false or do not contain serious seeds for thought.

You will certainly laugh your #ss off at me (go ahead, laughter is good), but the media is not "liberal".

We see almost nothing in this country, even on PBS, that the big corporations who own (or fund in the case of PBS) our media outlets feel it is appropriate to show us. Large corporations are inherently conservative.

One really must sample the media from around the world to get a broad view of what really is going on. I'm sure you would think this reporting is REALLY liberal but you would see video of the results of American foreign policy that really can open your eyes.

The people in the towers were murdered innocents. They must be avenged.

Past American foreign policy itself is far from innocent. It wasn't about nothing. They didn't attack Sweden or Switzerland. The murderers had (mis-guided) reasons.

Thanks for taking the time to check out my posts.

[jimbo]

It is naive to think our current adventures in the middle east are not about having a permanant and dominating presence there for years to come.

The myth about bringing freedom and stability to everyone is not neccesarily true (and not particularly important to our foreign policy) It's like the WMD thing, it will fade away eventually.

The real reasons:

We now have four big bases in Iraq and at least two in Afganistan that we didn't have before.

Mark my words those bases, and the threat of power they extend, will still be there 10 years from now.

That's the modern version of empire.

As Seinfeld said: Not that there's anything wrong with that.

P.S.

I am free to believe as I do, and you are free to believe as you do. I am free to try to convince you to see it my way, and you are free to try to convince me of your viewpoint - that's what this country is all about. The attack mentality and name calling is not a neccessary or welcome part of that process

I totally agree with what this poster said. If we are going to discuss things political we should try to leave the emotion out of it.

[t2p]

so .....
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Would you rather 'Hussein and company' be in charge of a Middle East 'Empire' ......... ???
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That is what we were basically looking at.
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Now that is something to look forward to .........

sure, the world would be much better off with a madman in total control of the entire Middle East ......
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regardless, I appreciate your opinions and views because they force me to look outside of my (traditional) myopic view ........
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heck, there are still many people out there that continue to think that we made a mistake by dropping the bombs on Japan .....

[BaM*BaM]

That was not even a possiblility
The UN sanctions were working 100%. Maybe your scenario is the one preached to you at your sunday school,... but here in the real light of day, such crap is laughed at.

[t2p]

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so the move to take over Kuwait was make-believe ......... ? What was the Gulf war about then ........... ?
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and the mass grave sites in Iraq .... were really flower beds .... ?
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UN Sanctions were working 100% ? I don't think so. Iraq was not in compliance and would not permit full inspections. Even the trade sanctions were bypassed.
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Just who was going to stop Hussein and Sons ?

[jimbo]

Hi t2p, glad to see ya here.

Would you rather 'Hussein and company' be in charge of a Middle East 'Empire' ......... ???

Yeah it would be called the United States of Torture.
Seriously the problem was Saddams Sons. They were certain to take over, and one was a total psycho.

There must be other strategies that could have worked besides the whole goblin circus we have going on over there now. I think we have ulterior motives.

heck, there are still many people out there that continue to think that we made a mistake by dropping the bombs on Japan .

It looks like there was at least a chance that it might not have been neccesary. But hindsight is always ... well you know.

Apparently the Japanese may have thought that "absolute surrender" meant there was a good chance we would execute their emperor (unacceptable to them), which we had no intentions of doing. Some say enough wasn't done to clarify this point.

Perhaps this was on purpose. Perhaps a little justified "revenge" was also on people's minds.

In any case I respect Harry Truman and certainly wouldn't have wanted to be the one who had to make that decision.

[jimbo]

Theoretical Question: Why didn't we just remove Saddam and Sons, check for wmd, kill the small group of terrorists who were operating on the northeast Iranian border, then get out and leave the bathists in charge?

I know, I know they would still be our enemies and all ... but I think the question exposes the untruths of the official reasons for the war.

The way we did it now means we will always have bases there. Even if there ends up being a civil war, our troups will retreat behind the concertina wire and wait it out.

We have a permanent presence in the heart of our enemy.

Another point: I think GW just likes being a wartime president just a little too much. I've seen him refer to himself that way and he's smiling as he's saying it. I can't imagine any other recent president showing so much obvious enjoyment in having that sad and sobering role.

Back during the invasion of Iraq I remember a reporter asking him about suicide attacks on our troops and he just smiled and said "bring it on!".

I was embarrased for our country and felt sorry for the soldiers stuck over there with the prez saying bring on the attacks. Some must have been very concerned at that. It seemed irresponsible.

[BaM*BaM]

Yes, Hussein did kill thousands of Iraqis in an effort to stabilize his country. When Donald Rumsfield was the the US's special envoy to Iraq (providing Iraq with more and more arms and money) Hussien even gassed a few Kurds, all under the watchful eye of the USA. who were hiring Hussien (and his sons) to continue his war against Iran, where well over two and one half million islamic fundamentalists were killed, using USA arms and aid.

Yes, Al-Queda hates Hussien as much as they hate the USA

And USA has now killed MANY TENs OF THOUSANDS of Iraqis!!!!!!! Along with the deaths and crippling of tens of thousands of GREAT US Servicemen and women!!/ But of course we use the words 'saving the Iraqis' in front of the number dead, so its ok then?

[t2p]

BAM .... I can't argue with you there ......
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I was in favor of the 'oust' of Hussein ..... but certainly did not want this 'mess' ........
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jimbo ....... I would have preferred that ........
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at a minimum, I would have preferred a different strategy .... different plan ......... than the ones (presumably) directed by Rumsfeld ....... Wolfowitz ......... ???

[MrCrowley]

Im glad someone brought up the invasion of Kuwait. Did you know Kuwait has so much money, they pay a minimum of $800.00 a year in taxes TO THE CITIZENS? Yes, the reverse of our system. This is based on the value 12 years ago. Did you also know that the invasion was the biggest bank job the world has ever seen? If you remember, they invaded, occupied kuwait city, then the republican guards beat it back to iraq? What we fought was peasants stuck in trenches near the border after the banks were looted in kuwait and brought back to master. What I want to know is why we didnt get reimbursement for the billions spent in oil revenues or oil itself. I know you and I are still paying for that damn war.

[tiggergreen]

How low the U.S. has sunk... Many of you do not fully understand the truth about what is really happening here on our soil.

1. Separation of Church and State:

The founding fathers did not want a scenario such as was happening with the Church of England. ONE CHURCH was running things in the country. So they made it so that that wouldn't happen in this country. How is banning a monument of 10 commandments against the notion of separating church and state? It doesn't - plain and simple. The founding fathers believed in God and put it on all the currency ("In God We Trust") and knew that we would be in trouble if we ever fell away en masse. Why can't we pray in schools? Almost every religion has some type of prayer - I wouldn't mind bowing my head and listening to a budhist pray - as long as we all believe in a higher power, then we will be better citizens.

2. Freedom of speech:

This was intended to allow the common citizen to say anything he or she wished about the government without fear of reprisal. In Nazi Germany, if you spoke openly against the Nazi party, you were thrown in jail, etc. This freedom does NOT apply to pornography. Pornography is tearing this country apart and I have personally witnessed a lot of tragedies from this horrible infestation in our society.

3. Communism

How many of you are aware that we have instituted communist practices in our government? We have a central bank that is not part of the government (Federal Reserve) and we have a graduated income tax. I have taken the liberty of pasting in the content from the Communist Manifesto:

"Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc." - Karl Marx

I do not like what George Bush has done over in Iraq. However, Kerry was infinitely more evil than Bush. Why didn't we all cast our vote for one of the independents on the ballot? There were a lot of good men running for president - but they didn't have the monetary reserves to compete with the Democratic and Republican parties.

Open your eyes, everyone - there are a lot of things happening in this country and we are slowly losing our freedoms (Patriot Act, anyone?).

They are trying to take our weapons these days. My father always told me, "Outlaw guns and only outlaws will own guns." This freedom is very dear and we should fight any law that attempts to control guns.

And finally, I have to comment on the gay issues... First of all, I condemn hatred of any kind towards any person or persons. However, I think that Homosexuality is wrong and I support laws that protect the sanctity of marriage as being between a man and a woman. However, I am friendly towards all no matter their sexual orientation. I just find it ironic that the homosexual community wants a ceremony of God to be applied to their union when the Bible clearly states that it is an abomination. If they do not believe in God, then why do they want to use one of its sacraments??? Also, I was involved personally with a gay community in Portland, Oregon (one of the reasons I left). They ganged up on my nephew and convinced him that he was gay and sexually assaulted him several times. Before this time he was a little feminine (but so was I when I was his age) and liked to dress nicely. That does not make one gay... What they did was wrong. If someone chooses to be gay of their own free will and volition - then fine - but why do you have to attack someone in a group? They even told him that they were "recruiters!!!"

Abortion - hmm - killing a baby is ok because??? Pro-choice? Couching murder in friendly terms does not change the nature of the crime. How would you have liked it if someone had terminated your life before you were born? What about the baby's choice? Did you ask the baby before killing it? If you do not want to have a baby, practice abstinence. I have personally known women who were convinced to perform abortions and they went slightly cuckoo afterwards...

SUV gas guzzling etc. I am all for alternate fuel. However, I purchased the VX because of its style and looks and there was nothing like it on the market. I hate that it is a gas guzzler - but I love driving it... I hope that someday I will be able to put a different engine in the vehicle that will be more "Earth friendly." I for one am glad that oil prices are rising - that means that more and more car companies will be forced to come out with better cars... Buying oil = supporting terrorism - it is true - but until we can stop our dependence on oil (a long shot), we will be funding them for the foreseeable future.

[ steps off soap box ]

Brent
Former Republican

[I_Wanna_Retire]

This rather LONGGGG thread proves that we are truely a divided nation. There are many important decisions to be made, deficit, social security, all of us damn baby boomers, etc, needing a strong intelligent president, and sorry, I just don't see Bush as the guy.

[jimbo]

I agree with the above. I just saw on Yahoo that Gw is claiming he got political capital in this election "And he's a gonna spend it".

Read: Nothing has changed, he's gonna keep on screwing up our country.

Even though he won by a very narrow margin he thinks he's a big winner and half the country oughta just bend over and take it.

Is anyone here aware there is already a book being sold in our national parks bookstores explaining how the Grand Canyon was created by Noah's Flood.

I can't wait to see what 's next.;Dp;

[MrCrowley]

I saw that!!!!!!! What a bunch of crock. They are saying that all the scientific data gathered over the past 200 years is false. The fruit loops are saying that 1 short flood dug that huge hole in the ground. If you ever get a chance to see a topographic map of the river, you can actually see that it has indeed eroded over thousands of years to the depth it is today. And I aint dat edumucated. The sad thing is that they are selling in the federal gift shops at the park. That is another violation of the church state separation as it is viewed as basically having government approval.

The next bull**** Im expecting is that Jesus farted while resting on a long journey, and miraculously a cave was formed......

If religious people dont believe in evolution, how the hell can they explain a platypus. Id like to see a jehovah's witness scratch his head trying to make up some bull****, but you know all you will hear is "because the lord made it that way" What a bunch of crock.


Maybe we should change the laws so that a foreigner can be elected as President. My nomination will be f&^%ing Ozzy. I could just see him getting pissed and cussing, throwing **** and beating the hell out of ol' George and taking over the White House. Only because it would piss the fruit loops off! Sharon would lead the nation better than that rat bastard Curious George.