Kerry has conceded

[vxkween]

And NO - A BIG FAT NOOOO - I DON'T think your racism statement is true in ANY part of the country, but I DO think it gives us some insight into what the "Proud Members of the Intellectual Elites" living in "The United States of Liberty and Education" think of us backward saps in "Jesusland".

I'll have to say that I too believe that racism is alive and well in many parts of the country...although it seems more pronounced in the South. Let's think back to 1998 when 3 "bubbas", for lack of a better word, drug a black man (James Byrd) to his death behind their pick up truck just because of his skin color. I have lived in Texas most of my life and there are parts of this state I would not venture into with my partner for fear of being harmed. I'm not talking about little itty bitty towns, I'm talking about Beaumont, Port Arthur.... I belive if given the chance some people would most defintely opt to turn back the hands of time to segregation.

OK - enough of that - got kind of sidetracked there. We've got our own trash talking to do! Let's get to your MAIN POINT which was, in your words, "the dangers of putting "rights" issues up for a popular vote rather than handling them in the courts at the federal level".


What disturbs you so much about states having different laws? To me it seems like a good solution to intolerance. If you just can't stand to be around those who think/act differently than you, then you can MOVE to a state where the philosophical and political leanings (and thus the state laws) are more to your liking. Can't stand tobacco smoke? Move to NY! Love those cigs? Move to NC and smoke up Johhny! Banjo music get on your nerves? Stay the hell out of the South! Go see Le Nozze di Figaro at the Met instead...

What is unfortunate about "if you don't like it then leave" is that it narrows down the choices dramatically! For instance, my partner and I have been planning to buy 50 or so acres outside the Asheville area for our retirement. That area of NC is very progressive and diverse, but the state itself not so tolerant and I really don't foresee North Carolina passing legislation permitting gay marriages or for that matter civil unions in the near future. So we are presented with the choice of moving to Connecticut, Massachusetts, California, and probably Oregon - do you think that's fair? I certainly would like to have a larger selection, preferebly hmmmmm, North Carolina yeah!!

Do I think America is ready at this point in time to make gay marriage or civil unions recognized in all 50 states? Absolutely not! I think the gay/lesbian community has had many significant victories this past year in getting a few states to recognize our right to love whoever we want and to be able to have the rights that so many straight couples take for granted. I do however understand that it is going to take years for the rest of America to catch up in regard to equality for ALL of its citizens.

[vxkween]

ooops...I didn't get the quotes from slowPro highlighted in there...those of you following the thread will be able to work it out I think.

[Dallas4u]

Originally posted by vxkween
my partner and I have been planning to buy 50 or so acres outside the Asheville area for our retirement.

Not to get too off-track, but where exactly outside of the Asheville area are you looking? My mother and step-father bought some land on a golf course somewhere outside of Ashville, and they are seriously thinking of selling. I know, you probably DON'T care to live on the 8th hole... I was just wondering whereabout you were looking. Oh, and it's probably only an acre or so...

[MachineVX]

I can attest to the fact that racism is alive and well in Chicago. I've worked in the inner city school and schools on the toney North Shore. There's a world of difference . . .

[V-Twin hiCROSS]

Interesting how this thread turns to racism. Being a middle class white guy, I guess it is easy to let that issue slip away when not confronted by it regularly. I would have to agree that racism still bears its teeth in the twenty-first century. But, a BIG but, I believe that it is the exception, not the norm. No matter how hard we try, there will still be idiots in the world. I can say this, throughout my life on several occasions, I have seen diversity and tolerence triumph over hate and racial divides. I understand many folks concerns on this issue, but I feel that most Americans are pretty well past those small-minded divides. Let me know if I am off base here, I would be interested to know if you all think I might be inside some sort of bubble.

[vxkween]

Dallas....we are looking around Black Mountain and any other areas around Asheville were we can get a significant parcel of land. We are looking for "off the grid" land, or some might call it "dog land"...we are going to build a self-sustaining home whatb I like to call THE HUT. The home is made of old tires filled with dirt and pounded in for the load supporting walls and then layered with adobe like material. The power is DC and is supplied via wind, solar, and water stored in batteries......sound earth muffinish I know but we've stayed in one near Taos NM and they are really cool! We would basically have no reliance on city water, electric.......

[jimbo]

The thing I was trying to say, when I brought up the race thing, was that I believe that if you put any of these civil rights issues up for a vote you are making a big mistake.

I consider gay marriage to be a civil rights issue.

If men and woman are truely equal than it makes no sense, absolutely no sense, that marriage should be defined in a sexist way. Why should the fact that it was that way for thousands of years make any difference? Men and woman did not have equal rights for thousands of years, but they do now.

Don't be afraid, move forward boldly.

Marriage should not be defined by religious persuasion, race, age (above age of consent) or sex. Marriage is a basic right not owned by any one group.

I don't think it should matter where you live, civil rights should be protected by the courts, not dictated by the majority by referendum.

I think the topic of gay marriage is long overdue, it should have been settled during the civil rights era. Why wait another 30 years to fix this inequity?

VXkween I'm glad you showed up. Sometimes I feel like very few here agree with me at all.

On a broader topic, at the core of how I feel about all these issues we've discussed so far is that I think we should keep moving forward, change things boldly without fear.

For example: Why waste time blocking embryonic stem cell research? Wouldn't it be more constructive to be focusing on creating a new set of foreward looking laws to govern the ethics of genetic engineering; issues like stem cell research, gene engineering, and human cloning rather than being fearful and trying to block them from happening?

I wish the debate in the country only revolved around how to give indviduals even more rights and freedoms not less. How to move science ahead faster and faster rather than how to hold it back.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by V-Twin hiCROSS
Maverick,
Just a few comments to your recent post:
1) It is very common for a second term president to make changes in his cabinet. Especially in the turbulent times that we have seen over the past few years. In several of the current positions (namely Colin Powell), these individuals needed a break form that life. It is by no means a cake job, many tough decisions.
2) Drilling for oil in the Alaskan wilderness only makes sense. There are currently three other countries that are tapped into that mass of underground liquid gold. They are just getting to it from the oceans. If we do not start tapping that resource, it will be used up before we get ours. I am no expert on the subject, but my understanding is that it is more environmentally safe to drill them from dry land.
3) Recent reports tell us that the Iraqi troops are starting to meld and have some good cohesion. It takes a bit of time to train these new soldiers. Currently they are working closely with our American boys to learn the ropes in "real" situations. Give it a year or so, and those Iraqi's will have some experience and will have seen the impact that they can make if they work as a trained team.
4) Having the Insurgnece all couped up in one town seems to be the best alternative from what I can see. At least we know where they are and that most anyone left in that town needs to be "86'ed".
5) I see much good since the election. My 401K climbed nearly 5% in the last few weeks. In my neck of the woods, everyone seems to be getting along just fine. We do not agree on all issues, but I think that we mostly have the same basic goals for this great land. If you choose to be the pessimist, there are always faults to be found. Things are not perfect, but they are far from dismal.

Im not a pessimist (see my sig) , i often am accused of being overly optomistic in fact..so i suppose for me to come off as a pessimist just underlines my concerns.

i had a long response, i deleted it.. those items dont encourage me though.. i find theres a fine line between being and optimist, and turning a blind eye..i see just fine, and maybe thats my problem.... maybe someone else can show me something encouraging.. a picture of a kitten perhaps??

[jimbo]

Yeah Maverick, with the exception of # 5 that list of things sounds like the standard line from a white house press conference.

I hope they're true.

Let me tell ya, around philly people aren't feeling overly optimistic these days.

Some folks are talking about sending lots of pretzels to the white house.

[t2p]

Maverick ......

There are some reasons to be optimistic - just like there are two sides to each story .... and statistics can be 'turned up' or 'down'.
.
I don't think Powell was 'ousted' ...... I think he had (just about) enough ........... ditto for a few others ........
.
Rumsfeld leaving ..... ? I have seen no confirmation of this ........ many would feel this step would be a positive one ......
.
Bush environment-related policies have issues, but I DONT see an issue with drilling in Alaska .... not in the spot where they plan to drill. Where (else) can we drill ? ........ NYC ? Is there a better spot in the US ? As I stated in an previous post - maybe we should not drill - and only then drill *after* the Middle East oil supply slows to a mere trickle ............
.
'largest battle since the war ended' ...... see 'Rumsfeld' above .....
.
I don't see significant progress with the deficit ...... however, Bush did not generate the 'entire deficit- - his policies may be responsible for 20-25% of it ..........
.
it appears the 'mess' in the Middle East might continue for a while ......... they are dealing with a country that has lived under hostile rule for generations .......
.

[t2p]

Jimbo and Mav:
.
I will recite the tried-and-true GW lines:
.
.
Economy is improving. We are out of recession. Job market is picking up.
.
Market is up.
.
Tax reform in place.
.
'No Child Left Behind' implemented.
.
75% of Al Quaida (or whatever) captured ........
.
Afghanistan and Iraq liberated ........
.
Homeland Security dept established and security improved
.
.
You guyz need to remember this admin inherited a recession and the country was attacked. Serious deficiencies in the security of this country had to be addressed.

[SlowPro48]

Originally posted by jimbo

What do you think of the prisoner shootings in Fallujah?

I don't think it's right for any person or government to snuff out human life. I suppose one could justify killing on the grounds of self defense or to prevent the death of others but I'm not sure I could do it myself. I'm thankful that I'm almost 100% sure I'll never have to make that choice, since we as a society pay others to do our killing for us.

I like steak - but I would probably be a vegetarian if I had to kill the steer myself instead of picking up a chunk of professionally killed bovine at the supermarket. I hardly ever think about how that animal lived and died when I pay for it at the cash register. Do you hear what I'm saying...? I know Bush doesn't!

(you busted on my train/space-time metaphor so i figure steak/american way of life, butcher/dogs of war won't go over well either but i'm just stupid enough to toss another metaphor out there for ya - have at it)

I see the issue of gay marriage (for example) being about being able to marry the person you love, to possibly fall under the "pursuit of happiness" clause in the constitution

I agree. I've talked to my friend many times about this and for the life of me I still don't know why a man would want to... uh.... do the things he does to another man when women are so beautiful - but if that's what it takes to make him happy then I fully believe there's a place for him in America. We declared our independance from the King of Great Britain by saying "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". A lot of patriot blood was shed so he could persue that happiness.

In other words I am far more comfortable with a strong and liberal leaning judicial branch. A progressive minded bench to balance out the other branches and make sure that the rights of minority groups of all kinds are protected.

Here is where we differ my fellow long-winded foil. I believe Supreme court judges should not "lean" one way or the other when rendering decisions. If we the people decide our representatives in the legislative or executive branches are out of line, we can vote them out of office. We get the chance to oust them for every 4 or 6 years. They can't get TOO out of touch with their public's desires and stay in office long. So don't worry so much about the balance of power in those branches. It is self-correcting. The judiciary isn't like that though. We cannot vote them out of office, therefore they should be non-partisan. Their job isn't to make law but rather to compare it against the Constitution, which should be their standard - not their own personal opinions or even the whims public opinion. And that's my personal opinion.

I like the way our country has grown and changed in the last 50 years and want that trend to continue. (obviously sense I am such a liberal elitist bullsh#tter) LOL ]

Well I may be out of touch, but I'm one of those people who thinks it was better "back in the day". But I'll admit - life's not too bad now. The longing for "the good old days" may be a temporary, phase that's particularly acute right now because I'm trying to get an after school program for at-risk youth started at a local inner-city elementary school where I do some tutoring. Researching for the "needs" part of the grant application has been an eye-opener. I thought it was just this school that was a lot rougher than when I was in elementary school but apparently there's a nation-wide problem. I don't have it with me here at work but I ran across a Time Magazine article at the library comparing the problems schools reported in the 40's with today's problems. Big problems in the 40's were things like chewing gum, talking in class, running in the hall, not throwing trash in the waste basket. Problems today - fighting, drug possession, weapons possession, assault on teachers and staff, pregnancy. And keep in mind we're talking elementary and middle school here. Pregnant 7th graders...

Now you tell me - is that a good trend? What happened in the last 60 years in our nation's school systems? I'm betting you don't want to go down that road!

Bush admits he has not had to veto one piece of legislation because there was total agreement between the conservative powers in congress and his office. That doesn't seem like the checks and balances are in place currently to me.

Those bills didn't make it through congress without a lot of debate and a lot of Democrat votes and you know it. The Republicans only have a very slim majority (in 108th, S = 48D:51R and H= 205D:229R) they don't OWN congress by any stretch of the imagination. I would say the reason Bush hasn't had to veto anything is because the conference committee members and Chairmen have been better this term at resolving differences before the bill ever gets to the prez.

[SlowPro48]

Originally posted by vxkween
I'll have to say that I too believe that racism is alive and well in many parts of the country...although it seems more pronounced in the South.

Jimbo and I were discussing the possibility of a racist southern STATE rolling back civil rights for minorities - not debating whether there are racist individuals WITHIN those states. I personally don't think the south is more racist than any other part of the country - but then maybe I'm just lucky in who I've been privileged to be associated with - starting with my non-racist parents of course. That always helps.

Maybe southerners are just too open and honest. Maybe there's racism in northern states but Yankees are just more subtle and sneaky about it.

Whatever the case, I'm 99.44% sure you won't find enough racists in any Southern state for a rollback of minority rights to happen though - but I also don't think there's anywhere in the WORLD you won't find racist INDIVIDUALS. People who look down on others have always existed and always will. Sad but true! I bet you could even find a few racists in the "blue" states! You might even find one wearing one of those buttons that says "Dear Blue States, to be honest, we DO look down on you."

What is unfortunate about "if you don't like it then leave" is that it narrows down the choices dramatically! For instance, my partner and I have been planning to buy 50 or so acres outside the Asheville area for our retirement. That area of NC is very progressive and diverse, but the state itself not so tolerant and I really don't foresee North Carolina passing legislation permitting gay marriages or for that matter civil unions in the near future. So we are presented with the choice of moving to Connecticut, Massachusetts, California, and probably Oregon - do you think that's fair?

I hate to say this but - yes, I DO think it's fair. As much as I would love to see you and your partner move to NC*, I don't think it's fair for anyone to force their views/lifestyle on a general populace that obviously isn't ready for it. That may sound harsh but just try to see the issue from their point of view. You say it narrows down your choices - but what about their choices? Their whole life may be based on traditions and values that have been the norm for thousands of years - and they want to raise their kids the same way they were raised - with the same traditional values. They don't want to go out to a restaurant and have to explain to little Johhny why there are two men making out in the booth in the corner. Are you saying their values don't matter but yours do? Sorry but that's why I like state's rights instead of the Federal one-size-fits-all solution. We won't ALL get EXACTLY what we want but by golly there's enough variability in the states that you should be able to pursue a reasonable amount of life, liberty and happiness however you define it. Northern Cali ain't bad - Oregon either! You gotta love this country, eh?

BTW, I hope you decide on A-ville. You won't have one bit of a problem anywhere in NC - we are more "progressive" than you might think. Damn, I hate buzzwords and now I'm using that one too. Politically speaking (and I guess that's what this thread is all about) Eastern counties lean Dem, and western NC leans Republican. The west, however is populated by mountain people - Scots-Irish mostly - and although they are generally conservative, mountain people are the most "live-and-let-live" people you will ever meet. They aren't the type to talk about tolerance and then turn around and show no tolerance for those they think are intolerant (!) - they EMBODY tolerance.

Check out this recent Parade article and you'll get a feel for the WNC native's mindset:

http://archive.parade.com/2004/1003/...ots_irish.html

*Mostly because I've got a bunch of old tires I need to get rid of. (jk - i'd really like to see that house)

[Maverick]

Originally posted by t2p
Jimbo and Mav:
.
I will recite the tried-and-true GW lines:
.
.
Economy is improving. We are out of recession. Job market is picking up.
.

For every two jobs gained, we loose one, at least that my unofficial count as i browse through the daily business section, and those gained have much lower salary averages than the ones lost..im no expert, but that isnt very encouraging to me...

Market is up.
.

the market always goes up after a presidential election, time will tell if its sustainable..i hope for the best, my few stocks are worth less than one quarter of what they were five years ago. i want them to go up, ill need that money for retirement since there wont be any social security left by the time im ready... sorry i spent little "extra " refund awhile ago, donated it to a family so they could buy winter coats for their daughters for christmas..i wont be able to use thatin 30 years, i guess ill start collecting cans now...

Tax reform in place.
.

sure, if youve got a couple million in the bank, unfortunately, i dont qualify..

'No Child Left Behind' implemented.
.

And grossly underfunded, lets fix that , its important....

75% of Al Quaida (or whatever) captured ........

um, that was just the known leadership, no one knows exactly how many of them are still around, many beleive theyve grown vastly in strength.. a couple of em did a fine job of blowing my freinds face half off a few months back, theyre far from nuetralized.
.

Afghanistan and Iraq liberated ........

the better part of Afgahanistan is still run by fuedal warlords, and Iraq, well, just watch the news..its in chaos. Liberated isnt exactly the word id use to describe it..they dont line the streets and throw roses at our troops, they try and kill them..
.

Homeland Security dept established and security improved

If you feel safer because of this, im happy for you..I know better, im in the protection business, listening to the speeches on how much safer we are today is like listening to a tragic comedy to me..wholely talored to make people who dont know , feel safer..sometimes i wish i was one of them.....
.
.

You guyz need to remember this admin inherited a recession and the country was attacked. Serious deficiencies in the security of this country had to be addressed.

im not an economist, but i know there are cycles for everything. i beleive that the decisions made after 9/11 resulted in much worse conditons than should have been...but like i said, i dont know, i just know i didnt agree with allot of them...


im still waiting for that 'feel good" reply, show me something solid, give me hope, prove im wrong. I really want to believe things will improve, this shouldnt be hard if you guys are right..im easy to convince, but not with party rhetoric, show me steadfast results and youll make me a believer...... or at least post up a nice pic of a kitten so i feel better, kittens make everyone feel better, until they turn into cats anyhow.....

[jimbo]

Good post Maverick, and you too Slowpro

This is a really good thread.