National ID Cards - Coming Soon to Your Wallet

[WyrreJ]

National ID Card FAQ

Unless this emergency spending bill is voted down in the Senate on MONDAY, we are all going to get internal passports in a couple of years.

You can very easily send letters to your senators about the issue via this web page:

Downsize DC

If you are like many who haven't really thought too much about national ID cards one way or another, here' are just few reasons they are bad:

1) They make us less secure because now all id forgers have just one target instead of the ~50 or so we have today, economies of scale will kick in and criminals will be able to buy cheap incredibly high quality forgeries if they wish.

2) They make us less secure because the national id-card database will be a perfect target for identity thieves. Knowning the way our government works, the thieves won't even have to break in and steal the database, they will be able to buy access to it.

3) The USA is suppossed to be the home of the brave and the land of the free. Internal passports sure are not about freedom and the only way this stuff gets sold to the public is on the fear of "terrorism."

On Oct 21, 2001 Osama bin Laden said - "I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in -- and the West in general -- into an unbearable hell and a choking life."

[crager34]

Does "Show me your papers?" ring a bell to anyone?

[Tone]

I'm ok with it - I'm a proud owner of a US Passport and understand the difficulty in verifying 50 states differing driver's licenses and varying requirements to obtain one. What they do with any data is another thing but every stop by police now generates an entry into a database. Every credit card transaction is online somewhere so I don't see it as any big deal unless you are hiding something. Of course there are other countries accepting citizens....

[WyrreJ]

I don't see it as any big deal unless you are hiding something.

Tone, you are the last person I would have thought would buy into the "only the guilty have something to hide" fallacy. In other areas you seem to relish pushing the boundries, for example reselling uncertified HID kits which itself is a black and white violation of NHTSA rules. Particularly when such a violation of our constitutional rights won't even serve the purpose that it is being sold as - namely increasing our safety. National ID cards can only make us less safe, not more.

Maybe you are unfamiliar with the reference - internal passports are what countries like China and the former USSR require their citizens to maintain in order to simply travel within the boarders of the country. Those are not the kind of countries we should be taking our cues from.

Of course there are other countries accepting citizens....

I'm with Senator Carl Schurz on this one, he said:
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right!"

[thebear54]

Does "Show me your papers?" ring a bell to anyone?

It does ring a bell here at my house...MY parents went throught the hell of WW II in Holland.
But...on the other hand with the INS chasing illegals around 24/7 and spending untold millions of our tax dollars trying to figure out "who is who in America", I am all for it as long as the Data Base is secured to the max.
It took my family eight months to secure a legal permit to move here back in 1961 when there were no threats of terrorism.
REMEMBER 9/11.
John

[redline]

I'm another Proud owner of an American passport .Finally everyone will have to get one. Both of my parents immigrated from Hungary. Some people don't realize How good they have it here.

[kpaske]

I normally have strong opinions on current issues, but this one I'm a bit torn on. On the one hand, I'm all about security, and I'm willing to give up a little bit of personal freedom to benefit our nation (hey, I joined the Army for 4 years shortly after 9/11, so what does that tell you?). On the other hand, I'm all about freedom and don't really appreciate someone watching over me all the time.

I'm not sure I buy the argument about having one single ID card as being less secure than 50 state ID cards. When it comes to counterfieting, there are some states with ID cards simple enough to replicate using Photo Shop. But have you checked out a much more secure card, like an alien registration card, for instance? That bad boy would be VERY difficult to duplicate. Combine that card with a few choice biometrics, some cryptography, and maybe even a personal passphrase or pincode and you'd have one hell of a secure card that would be extremely difficult and expensive to replicate.

According to that article, the card will store your ID number, name, birthdate, address, sex, and a digital photograph. I personally don't see a major problem with this, as most of these items are already stored in thousands (if not tens of thousands) of national databases.

I do see some possible benefits from this type of system. For instance, if public key cryptography were used, the card would be a much stronger identifier for anything from online transactions to airport security. The possessor of the card, in combination with a pin code, passphrase, or even a biometric, could authenticate themselves in a way much more securely than any regular photo ID.

I don't really see the correlation between a national ID card and communist states. I don't think anyone is suggesting that our movements within our own country would be monitored. If the feds want to do that, they've already got that ability with credit card records, cell phone records, etc. Having a national ID card would only facilitate that if a record was stored, using our national ID number, every time we displayed the card. I think THAT is the type of thing we need to be leary of. In fact, if we want to protect our freedom, it should be required by law that nobody can store the information retrieved off the card, outside of the national registration database, which would be used only for authentication purposes.

What worries me the most is that if the laws pass without the public sufficiently aware of the exact implications and without understanding exactly how the technology works, there certainly is a lot of room for abuse. And I certainly wouldn't put it past our government, especially the Bush administration, to try to slide one past us.

[WyrreJ]

Read what Bruce Schneier has to say about the issue. Schneier is one of the foremost security researchers in the USA - his crypto algorithm, Blowfish, was one of the finalists for the recent DoD encryption standard (AES) which replaced the decades old IBM developed DES.

I'm not sure I buy the argument about having one single ID card as being less secure than 50 state ID cards. When it comes to counterfieting, there are some states with ID cards simple enough to replicate using Photo Shop.

And thus they are not highly trusted, which is a good thing.
Putting all your eggs in one basket is a bad idea from all kinds of perspectives.
And if these national id cards can't be highly trusted either, what then is the point in the first place?

But have you checked out a much more secure card, like an alien registration card, for instance? That bad boy would be VERY difficult to duplicate. Combine that card with a few choice biometrics, some cryptography, and maybe even a personal passphrase or pincode and you'd have one hell of a secure card that would be extremely difficult and expensive to replicate.

1) How much do you want to pay for your card to make it secure? $50? $100? $200? What exactly will that $50 tax buy you in additional security?

2) Sooner or later it will get forged, with at least 16 million illegal aliens in the USA already the market demand for such a forgery is enormous. If this document becomes the centrally important document, then people will easily pay over $100 per forgery. That's a "research budget" of at least $160 million. No way will it remain secure in the face of that kind of money.

According to that article, the card will store your ID number, name, birthdate, address, sex, and a digital photograph. I personally don't see a major problem with this, as most of these items are already stored in thousands (if not tens of thousands) of national databases.

There are a couple of problems:

1) Those databases are not centralized. Centralization creates all kinds of new problems that people haven't even thought of before. Its like county land ownership records. Public knowledge, but only available on paper down at the county court-house they were not seen as a risk. As soon as someone digitized them and put them in a computer, you could now look up anyone's address by name and the amount and total value of all property they owned at a whim. Centralization and digitization, no matter how carefully guarded almost always invokes the law of unintended consquences.

2) Those databases are supposed to be voluntary. Just because some people have given away some of their privacy does not mean that all law abiding citizens should be forced to do the same. Even if some of them are de facto involuntary - for example I had to give up my prints to get my DoJ and DoD clearances which I needed if I wanted to work - that does not mean all law-abiding citizens should be forced to do the same.

I do see some possible benefits from this type of system. For instance, if public key cryptography were used, the card would be a much stronger identifier for anything from online transactions to airport security.

Is this rather trivial benefit really worth the price of our freedom? Not to mention the actual dollar cost of implementing the system?

Do we actually need stronger id for online transactions? I use single-use credit card numbers for all my online purchases. The two major banks implementing these single-use numbers - MBNA and Citi - have reported that over the 5+ years that they have been using them there has not been a single case of fraud involving single-use numbers. Even if that were not the case, why should our tax dollars go to make life easier for businesses? Shouldn't they have have to fund their own systems? Isn't that the free market?

As for airport safety, anyone who has flown recently knows that airport security is a sham, meant to waste our time to convince those among us who have not mastered critical thinking that "the government is protecting us." Considering that the 9/11 hijackers all had valid, authentic IDs, having a cryplographically signed id does not seem like it will make any more difference than the song and dance we all do for the TSA at the airport today.

I don't really see the correlation between a national ID card and communist states. I don't think anyone is suggesting that our movements within our own country would be monitored.

We are already at the point were ID is all but necessary to travel. Airplanes require ID, trains require ID, busses require ID and of course driving yourself requires ID. You can walk, bicycle and hire a taxi - not very practical for most people. A national id will soon lead to swipe terminals at all these points of travel, to make it "easy" and once it is computerized, it will be linked. We should be rolling back the requirements for travel, not tightening them up.

If the feds want to do that, they've already got that ability with credit card records, cell phone records, etc.

So, if the feds can already do all this, what benefit is there in such a system to you and me?

I'm willing to give up a little bit of personal freedom to benefit our nation

I don't know if you chose that wording on purpose or not, but it so closely mimics Benjamin Franklin that I think it is worth posting his famous quote on the subject:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety"

(hey, I joined the Army for 4 years shortly after 9/11, so what does that tell you?)

When someone joins the military, to me and my family it has always meant that they wanted to preserve the American way of life. Freedom being the founding principle of that way of life.

redline said
Both of my parents immigrated from Hungary. Some people don't realize How good they have it here.

On the contrary redline. I do realize how good we have it here, and that is precisely why I wish to keep it that way. What good will it have done for your parents to immigrate here if we allow our country to eventually devolve into the kind of repressive system that they left behind?

[WyrreJ]

Here's the deal guys. Even if you think national id cards are a good thing, do you think that a proposal that has had minimal public debate ought to be slipped through as a rider on the tail of an emergency spending bill?

Shouldn't something like this get a full and complete airing in congress so that at the very least it is implemented properly with appropriate safeguards?

If you have any doubts at all about the way this is being implemented "in the dead of the night" so to speak, you should call on your senators to give it a proper evaluation. It takes less than two minutes to tell your senators that they need to do their jobs and give this issue a thorough analysis so that if they are going to do it, they can at least do it right -- just use this website:

Downsize DC

[WormGod]

Wow. I never heard one word about this until I read this. Goes to show ya, that teh Capital Boys love to grind their rich and powerful gears behind the backs of those who pay their salaries. Nothing new, but since this does involves ALL US citizens having to actually CARRY "another" form of ID on them, I would think that it is in our best interest to know beforehand.

On another note, if they can prove how this will benefit us and not create some new "eye in the sky" over us, I guess I am indifferent to the proposal. Sure, I hate to have more crap rusting away in my wallet, but if the reason is good enough, I am fine with it. Guess I will have to keep my eyes open on this one.

[MachineVX]

I don't have anything to hide, but what worries me is the presumption that I'm guilty of something, that I have to prove I'm not.

[mbeach]

I think that it's a great idea!

We can all have the same ID, so that door men at the bar wouldn't have to learn 50+ different ones.

We will all get one more piece of photo ID, just in case we loose one of the 2 or 3 that we already carry.

We can embed smartchips (those little gold things) into each card, and link it to a health database that has ALL citizens. That way, if I get into an accident, my card can be scanned. This will allow medical personnel to treat my injuries with respect to my health history.

We can also link our insurance information to the health history, that way the hospital will know right away who to bill (or who not to bill).

While were encoding the chip, we can link it to the account in our forthcoming terrorist-safe bank. We can then use our ID card as a debit card -maybe even a credit card if my credit rating (also linked in) is good enough.

How nice would it be if I got pulled over for a traffic violation? I could just hand the officer my new 'smart' ID, and he could scan it, immediately having access to my personal history, doublechecking my scanned fingerprints to ensure that I am who is on the card. He can also verify insurance coverage and maybe even take the fine right out of my bank account. That'll get rid of those pesky orange envelopes, and all of that wasted court time -in fact, courts will be unnecessary for all but the most heinous crimes, since money and insurance generally handle most crime today.

This new smart ID will also serve as an internal passport, this will allow government agencies like the Dept. of Commerce to keep an eye on illegal activities that hurt all citizens, like buying cigarettes in another state where they are cheaper.

Soon, this new ID will become so useful, that no one will accept any other form of identification/payment. After all it's foolproof. No more fake IDs, no more bogus credit card scams, bounced checks, etc. This will help the economy by eliminating the cost of these crimes, AND it will ensure that only 'real' US citizens will have the right to purchase any goods and services in OUR country.

I can't stress enough how excited I am about this whole thing. Maybe one day I can get rid of my wallet altogether. I'll just keep this new ID dangling from a ball-chain around my neck. After all, I won't need any other ID, nor will I need to carry cash. If I want to look at a family photo, I can swipe my card in a touchscreen kiosk, and take a look at the latest satellite surveilance photos of my family -just in case.

In all seriousness, I have spent more than 13 of my 32 years on Earth in service to the government in one way or another(military/security/contractor/consultant) - this is just another dumb idea that's been waiting for the technology to catch up.
I don't see it happening within the next 10 years, I mean, look how slow our government moves on the good ideas.

[MachineVX]

Maybe we can add a GPS to it, so that the gov't will be able to know where we are at all times. If you have nothing to hide, this shouldn't be a worry. Could also have a biometric monitor, so the gov't could know when we have just expired so our organs can be harvested for use by others, if we can't be saved. This could also eliminate speeding and traffic violations . . . Why bother with a card, when they can just implant RFID chips into us at birth?

[Moncha]

Wow. I never heard one word about this until I read this.....

Actually, the idea has been around since I was a kid which was WHILE ago! The idea isn't new but, gets rehashed when events bring it to the forefront.

[transio]

Why bother with a card, when they can just implant RFID chips into us at birth?

All drama aside, personal RFID is something that is also in R&D.

It's easy for dramatic conspiracy theorists to present situations where technology infringes on our freedom. Try instead to imagine how these things will improve our lives. Being able to walk in and out of a store without standing in line to pay, automatically billing your purchases to your account of choice, never having to clock in and out of your job again, being able to track your kids in case they're kidnapped by a sex offender - the possibilities are limitless.

If you are afraid of technology taking away your freedoms, why the hell are you using the Internet? Go live in the woods with the other antisocial conspiracy theorists.