Rough Running after Timing Belt Install

[AREA 51]

to find the compressiom stroke you'd have to screw a press. gauge into #2 spark plug hole (unless you have really long fingers)and watch for press rise up to about 100 psi while turning the crank (in the correct rotation direction) by hand. Then you could use the dowel to get closer to tdc, and use the marks to finalize.

[mbeach]

If your belt's not in there will be no compression stroke -the valves won't move (close) to allow it.

I've seen this happen to a friend (really, it wasn't me) on a DOHC Honda 4 cylinder. It took days of trial and error to get it close enough for the adj. timing gears to dial it in.

Not worth the hassle. Nothing that makes you hate your car is worth doing on your own.

[kpaske]

...why would you have had to rotate the camshaft cog(s) at all? As long as the crank didn't rotate (in the absence of a belt), the camshafts and crank/piston arrangement should have went unchanged.

I was going off multiple sets of directions. All of them said to turn each of the cranks and cams until they lined up with their timing marks. I assume this is because the engine doesn't always stop at the same place, so to make all the marks line up, you've got to turn them all until they line up. I suppose it would make sense to turn just the crank until they all lined up, then replace the belt, but they might get a little bit off when you release the tensioner anyways.

...It's apparent that the #2 piston was not at TDC when the belt was originally removed -it's too late to do anything about it. Those timing marks are designed to line up under ONE condition, this eliminates the possibility of installing the belt in a '180 out' configuration.
Remember, during the suck-squish-bang-blow cycle, the #2 piston moves to the top of its travel 2 times. It's possible to locate the #2 piston's uppermost position and STILL be 180* out of phase (in relation to the camshafts' intake/exhaust arrangement). Next time, ensure that the #2 is at TDC AND the marks line up before removing the old belt.

You've contradicted yourself here. I know for 100% sure that all the marks on the pulleys, block, and belt lined up perfectly, WHILE the #2 was at TDC, so are you saying it's still possible that it's 180 degrees out of phase?

You can't go any further on your own... They will have to locate the correct positions for each of the OHC banks and the crankshaft based off of the firing order and the position of the camshafts' lobes (yes, they will be pulling your valve covers, unless there is a guru there with a fiber optic scope who can look through your oil filler hole (think gynecologist/mechanic) and determine your camshaft orientation).

Can you explain to me why all that would be necessary? I thought if all the marks lined it would be not be possible to be out of phase? Is this the procedure they would go through if a timing belt broke?

It sucks that you have to pay some shop to do the work, but hey, your time has value. Think of all of the trial and error work, as well as typing and waiting for responses and it all adds up. AAA and a few (hundred) bucks and it'll be a memory.

RLTW

I really don't mind doing the work myself, plus I want to learn so if I made a mistake that I don't ever repeat it. I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet unless I've created a problem much more difficult to solve than the original job. Heck, third time around I can probably get it done in a few hours instead of all day, if it is in fact a timing problem. I just don't see how it can be if I followed the shop manual instructions to the letter.

By the way, what do you mean by "RLTW"?

[Joe_Black]

You've contradicted yourself here. I know for 100% sure that all the marks on the pulleys, block, and belt lined up perfectly, WHILE the #2 was at TDC, so are you saying it's still possible that it's 180 degrees out of phase?

He's got a point here and I apologize for having missed it myself. In a four-stroke engine the piston makes two trips each combustion cycle so by setting the TDC at the exhaust rather than the compression stroke it would make a difference.

I'm hoping to talk to one mechanic friend tonight and will speak with another tomorrow for "second opinions".

EDIT: Okay, just got off the blower with a race mechanic who said to make sure after installing a new timing belt to manually turn the engine over twice completely and then re-check timing marks. Also indicated that loss of power and backfiring can come from being one tooth off in timing.

I've never rebuilt a V-configured DOHC but have done plenty of FIAT and Lancia twin-cams where I've had to use a spanner to keep the cams on the mark when installing a new belt. Depending on how you're eyeballing the marks this could be the problem.

[mbeach]

I gave advice based on this paragraph:

My cam shaft lined up after one rotation. The driver's side took about 3 or 4 full rotations, and the passenger side lined up after 1 or 2.

The point is, you turned various shafts independently of each other. It's too easy to miss the mark this way. If you want to spend days moving your cog(s) one tooth to the left/right than that's fine.

Here's another thought:
Where'd you get your replacement belt? If it's too long (would you know?) then it doesn't matter what you did right, your timing will wander from spec.

The RLTW was not a dig -I recall you mentioned that you were in 2d Batt before. I was being courteous.

[kpaske]

So if it is, in fact, 180 degrees off, it should be relatively easy to put it back in phase, right? I'm guessing that one cycle of the #2 cylinder is what it would take? In other words, rotate the drivers side cam until the piston moves from TDC, to the bottom, and back to TDC?

I don't think I'm one tooth off though - I took extra care to ensure that everything looked exact, and lined up the double line on the belt with the mark on the crank shaft pulley, leaving little doubt. I drew a little line on the belt tooth that corresponds to that mark so it would be easy to see when it lined up, and the lines on the cams line up fairly easily. Also, the cams sort of "pop" into place, so I think it's hard to screw those up.

The belt is a Gatorback, which is what several other members have used, so unless it is defective, there shouldn't be any issues with fitment.

If you guys are pretty sure it is 180 degrees off, if you could just confirm what the best way to make absolutely sure everything is lined up correctly, I've got no problem tearing it down and putting it back together. Third time's a charm, right?

P.S. Mbeach - I didn't think the "RLTW" was a dig, I just wasn't sure if there was some other meaning to the acronym, as I didn't think most people knew it to mean what I know it to mean. I'm surprised you remembered I'm with 2nd Bat.

[Joe_Black]

The belt is a Gatorback, which is what several other members have used, so unless it is defective, there shouldn't be any issues with fitment.

I know many have used the Gatorback for replacing the serpentine with great results, but for the timing belt I would personally not stray from the OEM. Plus, there's been a lot of negative reviews of the Gatorback timing belts among the import crowd due to stretching. After speaking with several folk about your issue I seriously doubt you're 180 degress off, but definitely a little. There's four cams there, and if just one is a tooth off you'd get what you've got now. The professional consensus is that it wouldn't even run at all at 180 degrees on even one set of cams.

I know you've probably checked this eleventy-billion times, but verify your belt is for the 6VE1 and not the 6VD1 or the 3.2L DOHC predecessor. I've seen 3.2L parts listed mistakenly for the 3.5L many times.

Wish we were closer by so we could gang-up on this problem with you!

[psychos2]

there is a tsb for replacing the timing belt.i do not remember what it said.does anyone know? when the marks are all lined up there is no way it could be out 180 degrees. my guess would be that it is off a tooth. shawn

[Raque Thomas]

Been watching this thread with great interest, as I'm seeing some small cracks in my belt - think I'll take it and have it done, though!! Hard to believe that something as precise as timing would be described in the manual as "line up the mark to the 2 o'clock position". Sounds like a 1950's era vehicle rather than a 1999-2001! Seems this would be further compunded by having to line up 4 marks to such subjective points in space - unless the computer compaensates and adjusts the timing??

[Joe_Black]

This just in from another race mechanic I had forwarded this thread to (unedited, so don't take the wording personal Kyle! ):

Hey Joe, just read the VX board thingie. Definitely the #1 and #3 bank is out of time on the intake cam, that is why the engine is running rich, the injector fires, the fuel pools up behind the valve because it isnt opening at the right time, and then it dumps a load of fuel into the chamber, rather than a fine mist. I don't know why the marks would line up, but he turned the cams around with the belt off--HUGE mistake, may not get it fixed on his own! All those things have to have the belt to keep time, that is why it's there. If everything lines up, it's a little confusing, cause it should work, but it definitely sounds like an intake cam is "bonked". Also, maybe he mixed up the plug wires or rather the coil plugs and is running the #1 with the # 3 connector, that would be easy! It's definitely not an ECU problem, that would never be that bad.

The coil comment is good 'cause it's one of those "simple" things that can slip under the radar while you're pulling your remaining hairs out.

[kpaske]

Raque - I think you are thinking about the Serpentine belt - the timing belt is not visible without some significant disassembly. That job actually isn't that hard; some have said it's a five minute job, no tools required. It took me about an hour, including replacement of the tensioner.

Joe - Thanks for getting your friend's advice. I'm not sure how turning the cams is such a huge mistake, when both of the manuals state that this is the correct procedure, and it is still my understanding that if everything lines up, they can't be rotated 180 degrees. His idea about the coils being switched is a good thought, but the only one I disconnected was the #2, so there is no possibility of a mix up there.

What about if I got a defective tensioner? That could cause these type of symptoms, couldn't it? Thinking back, when I did the job the second time after recompressing the tensioner, the belt didn't seem to be as tight as I expected. Maybe it's either too loose, or even skipping a tooth?

[psychos2]

Joe -

Yes, I think that is how I did it. The only part that looks unfamiliar is item 8 - I didn't line anything up on the left side of the cam shaft pulley, I just located the notch on the pulley (I'm pretty sure there was only one), and it lined up exactly with the mark at number 7.

i was looking at the cd manual and noticed what you had said in an earlier post.the reference to 8 in the diagram is for the crank not the cam pulley.and i also noticed that in the manual it says to make sure the writing is facing so you can read it from the front of the vehicle.so my question is did you line the crankshaft mark on the belt to the drivers side or the passenger side of the motor? because you line up the mark on the drivers side with the mark on the crank pulley and then you line up the mark on the belt with the mark on the passenger side of the crankshaft gear.
do not know if this is what you did ,but i was confused when i first looked at the diagram.hope this helps shawn

[kpaske]

Yeah, I meant to say the crank shaft pulley... I'm not sure if I did it right the first time around, but the second time I'm positive that everything was lined up correctly. On the gatorback, there is a double line that lines up with the 9 o'clock position of the crank shaft pulley, and two single lines that each line up with the marks on the cam shaft pulleys. I'm beginning to think that maybe I had a defective tensioner, but at this point I'm so busy I really don't have much time to screw around with it. I'm going to take it to a shop and get it fixed, but I'll be sure to give everyone an update on what the problem was, so nobody else runs into a similar problem if they try to tackle this job themselves.

[VCrossfan]

Hey kpaske: The Lines on the Gator back for the crank lines up at 3:00 (looking at the motor) not 9:00. The notch on the crank pulley groove lines up with the Oil pump mark on the block, driver's side of the motor (in front looking at the motor it's 3:00)

Recap..Double lines together, drivers side of motor even w/pulley groove notch aiming at oil pump mark on the motor block (3:00 looking at the motor)

Single lines on belt...lining up with the camshaft pulley and line on head...

Look at page 16-26 / fig #7 lower pic on page...I emailed you..it shows the crank pulley notch and oil pump mark

And Joe_Black..thx for the headsup on the Gatorback belts. I'll check it every 10,20 k or so

[psychos2]

the gatorback belts have different marks than stock?and do not line up the same? shawn