custom stealthbox... part deux! (looking for input for possible mass production)

[coachreed]

OK, after reading the Custom Stealthbox thread and brainstorming about it a little, I decided I might possibly attempt a mass production of a similar part... just need to know what your preferences are and get a feel for how many I might be able to sell... obviously the price is going to depend on how many are interested... and of course time invested and material cost per part.

Anyway, what I need to know is mostly what size sub is everyone interested in? I personally have a preference of 12", but I know that many people prefer the sound of a 10". I like the 12" because you can get a little deeper bass but still get a nice crisp, snappy bass too. What do you prefer?

What I have in mind is to pull a mold off of the original rear panel, mold an area in the sub mounting area (probably slightly flared out), and then reproduce that once it is perfected. Also, the actual sub enclosure would be permanently molded into the back of the panel so that most likely, no extra mounting brackets would be needed (depending on how heavy the subwoofer used is). If there are enough interested in this, I could get a gelcoat custom matched to the OEM plastic so that there would be no painting needed. You would use the red plastic wing-bolts to mount the panel into place and your original panel could be stored in a safe place for future reinstallation.

Just how many people would be interested in such a part? Are there any other features that you would like? What would you think a fair price for something like this would be? Keep in mind, that IF I make something like this, they will be 100% hand laid fiberglass... so the price is going to somewhat reflect that. Once I get a good feel for this, I will start working on the prototype. Also, if there is a fairly close interest between the 10" and 12" panel, I might make both... the enclosure would most likely be the same size but since there will be extra mold making time, will end up bumping the price up just a touch. On the other hand, a 12" panel could be built so that YOU cut the hole for YOUR sub and so the same panel could be used for either. Whataya think?

Well, let the discussion begin... btw, if you have any VX owning friends who aren't active on the board, talk to them about this and relay their input... or get them on the board... as if they don't need to be here anyway.

TTYL!

Coach... aka Randy!

[Tone]

Good idea but I have totell you that the 4 plastic screws that hold the rear cover on are NOT sufficient to hold any sub in place, especially over any sort of bump like speed humps or offroad. They also appear to become brittle over time as I have lost 2. I have heard the red ones are no longer available so I’ll be tracking down 4 black one’s on Monday. My sub kit attaches to the rear door with 2 screws to remove the weight from the plastic screws. Matching the plastic texture with gelcoat will be interesting - I look forward to seeing the completed project. Volume for a 12 and a 10 are different and technically not avail with the spare in the door. A 15” would be the perfect driver but certainly not possible with the spare

[paultvx]

I already have a box which I made to fit a 12" kappa perfect sub. It's not the prettiest thing but it works.

I personally would not want a sub box that is molded to be a part of any of the vx's interior pannel because the panels are expensive to replace. This means the boxes themselves would be expensive if they come with the panels, or it means I would have to cut up or modify what I have and then have to deal with paying $ to return the VX to factory spec if that day ever comes.

I would be more interested a box in either of the following froms:

1) A fiberglassed, countour fitted box that sits in one of the rear corners (Driver side would be best). This box would be in the way somewhat if you load/unload large objects. However, for daily use it'll be OK. Problem is access to one of the tool/jack access panels would be blocked. So it would have to be somewhat removeable.

2) A box that is similar to the rear cargo storeage box Tone showed a while back (I think it was Tone) where the top of the box is level with the seat backs of the rear seats when they're folded down. If you can build in some storeage bins, that would be even better. Also, it would be best if the sub mounting surface is counter sunk so that if you do put cargo on top of everything, the sub won't get in the way and get damanged. This will allow room for sub grills to be installed. And, for those who want a stealthy appearance, what if you make it a down firing system? Anyone looking in won't see any subs at all.

If 12" subs are too deep, then I'd say go with two 10"s. 10s are best for tight, accurate sound reproduction. They cost less, and sound absolutely amazing. I had two entry level JL 10W0s wired in parallel once in a VW hatchback and it was the most versatile bass system I have ever heard. From tight, well defined punchy bass to low frequency rumble, those 10s handled it all. I listened to just about every kind of music there is from classical to hip hop and those subs played them all beautifully. The two subs together didn't even cost over $100.

Oh.. btw, I'd go with sealed enclosures. No porting should be used if definition is desired.

If anyone is interested, there's a company out there who makes really nice looking sub boxes. Not a custom fit, but they do look good. The brand is Element Enclosures. http://www.audio-n-more.com/element_...enclosures.htm

[coachreed]

Originally posted by Tone
Good idea but I have totell you that the 4 plastic screws that hold the rear cover on are NOT sufficient to hold any sub in place, especially over any sort of bump like speed humps or offroad. They also appear to become brittle over time as I have lost 2. I have heard the red ones are no longer available so I’ll be tracking down 4 black one’s on Monday. My sub kit attaches to the rear door with 2 screws to remove the weight from the plastic screws. Matching the plastic texture with gelcoat will be interesting - I look forward to seeing the completed project. Volume for a 12 and a 10 are different and technically not avail with the spare in the door. A 15” would be the perfect driver but certainly not possible with the spare

Thanks for the info on the wing-bolts (probably my own goofy name for these plastic bolts). I was thinking that its going to depend on who tightly the actual enclsure fits to the spare tire. If the box fits fairly close and snug, the whole box/panel would only need a little help to stay in place. I have considered making the box fit within an 1/8" or so and putting a layer of neoprene on the outside of the box to make a slight friction fit to the spare tire... this would also cut down on chances of vibration too.

Matching the texture is very easy to do... and the nature of the material tha the OEM panel is made of, easy to take a mold off of. You could feasibly apply gelcoat directly to the OEM plastic without any mold release wax and once it is set, just pop the OEM panel back off... at least with my experience. This will create an EXACT mold with texture and all. The only tricky part is to apply mold release waxes uniformly to the mold before making reproduction parts... also PVA (mold release agent... basically liquid vinyl) would have to be sprayed into the mold as opposed to brushed... even the slightest texture will pick up in the gelcoat.

Air space for a good sealed enclosure designed 10" or 12" will be easy to obtain by th looks of things. If I'm not mistaken, my JL12W0 had a sealed volume requirement of only .6ish cubic feet... 10" would be even less. Your DEFINITELY not wrong about not having space for a 15" with the spare in place... but 15" subs are losing popularity from my experience. A decent 12" sub can hit as low and takes up less space... a good 10" sub can do the same with the right power. I have considered going to a 10" this time just for a change... I'll have enough power to make it work right as my Arc Audio sub amp is rated at around 900 watts (or should I say UNDER-rated).

Anyway, thanks again for the input on the wing-bolts and also your input in general.

TTYL!

Coach... aka Randy!

[coachreed]

Originally posted by paultvx
I personally would not want a sub box that is molded to be a part of any of the vx's interior pannel because the panels are expensive to replace. This means the boxes themselves would be expensive if they come with the panels, or it means I would have to cut up or modify what I have and then have to deal with paying $ to return the VX to factory spec if that day ever comes.

In my post I mentioned that the original panel would NOT be modified at all... that your OEM panel would be left to be stored safely out of harms way so that you could return you VX to original in the future should you need to. Also, I mentioned that the enclosure I am proposing would be completely hand laid fiberglass which means I am not sacrificing ANY OEM VX panels... not even my own so nobody has to lose an OEM panel... which leaves plenty for those who might need to buy one at a later date. I don't believe in hacking ANY OEM panel for the sake of a system... especially if its in a rare vehicle like our VX's.

Originally posted by paultvx
I would be more interested a box in either of the following froms:

1) A fiberglassed, countour fitted box that sits in one of the rear corners (Driver side would be best). This box would be in the way somewhat if you load/unload large objects. However, for daily use it'll be OK. Problem is access to one of the tool/jack access panels would be blocked. So it would have to be somewhat removeable.

My personal objection to this type of enclosure is that a) as you said, would take up space that IMO is not very abundant when loading large objects. I personally load my tool box for work up in my VX and it fits just right... take any space away and it won't fit... b)as you mentioned, I want access to my jack and tools should I need them... c) anything in the back and I would lose a unique feature of our SUV's.. the rear seats recline... a nice feature when I'm taking my son on a cross country trip.

Originally posted by paultvx
I would be more interested a box in either of the following froms:

2) A box that is similar to the rear cargo storeage box Tone showed a while back (I think it was Tone) where the top of the box is level with the seat backs of the rear seats when they're folded down. If you can build in some storeage bins, that would be even better. Also, it would be best if the sub mounting surface is counter sunk so that if you do put cargo on top of everything, the sub won't get in the way and get damanged. This will allow room for sub grills to be installed. And, for those who want a stealthy appearance, what if you make it a down firing system? Anyone looking in won't see any subs at all.

This enclosure that you speak of was a nice deal... simple, clean and unobtrusive. It is definitely a second choice of mine for many of the reason like you said. My sub eclosure will be nearly invisible to a passing theif though... unless they just KNOW that you have something. Tone's however does take up useful space in the case that someone does like myself and takes a cross country trip... luggage or maybe even reclining space (Tone? Does this hinder rear seat reclining?)

Originally posted by paultvx
I would be more interested a box in either of the following froms:

If 12" subs are too deep, then I'd say go with two 10"s. 10s are best for tight, accurate sound reproduction. They cost less, and sound absolutely amazing. I had two entry level JL 10W0s wired in parallel once in a VW hatchback and it was the most versatile bass system I have ever heard. From tight, well defined punchy bass to low frequency rumble, those 10s handled it all. I listened to just about every kind of music there is from classical to hip hop and those subs played them all beautifully. The two subs together didn't even cost over $100.

Oh.. btw, I'd go with sealed enclosures. No porting should be used if definition is desired.

No doubt that the debate between 10" and 12" subs comes down to personal preference and that is certainly the reason I asked the opinion about this. I also agree with you on the JL W0 line... I had two JL12W0's in my Trans Am and loved them to death... probably going back in the VX... and like you said, can't beat the price.

I also agree with you on the sealed enclosure... one of the reasons I prefer sealed is that they are more forgiving to design flaws, but they can be MUCH smaller than a ported eclosure for a similar sub.

Originally posted by paultvx
If anyone is interested, there's a company out there who makes really nice looking sub boxes. Not a custom fit, but they do look good. The brand is Element Enclosures. http://www.audio-n-more.com/element_...enclosures.htm

Pretty neat looking enclosures no doubt... but they would take up ALL of the rear cargo area from the looks of them. Certainly not bad if you wanna be seen at a show or something... but as you expressed concern earlier in the post, they would stick out like sore thumbs to a theif looking to score some new speaks.

Some very valid points and definitely good to hear your opinion on the matter. I however see several people have already taken the path of the sub sunk into the back door... so I'm gonna guess that there will be a decent amount of interest. I even saw a few people asking for a reproduction of the stealth box in the first thread so we are well on our way.

I know that if someone was to approach a shop to build what I am proposing, they would be hit with a price of $600+ (even upwards to $800). I am guessing (and its only a guess at this point as I havne't done any figures on how much material it would take) that the ballpark price would be $300 give or take. It is going to depend much on the interest... the more I sell... the lower the price is gonna be... the mold making process is the expensive time consuming part.

Anyway... anyone else got some input for us? TTYL!

Coach... aka Randy!

[coachreed]

I meant to ask the other night... who said "other"? What you lookin for? Maybe a pair of 10" subs? That might be able to happen.

Coach!

[IsuZOOM]

I'm not a stereo freak but I wouldn't mind a 10" sub in the rear assuming it didn't just buzz the plastic I know you're far from production, but what would you give as a rough estimate of pricing? In the $100 range, or more like $300? Or $500? Just curious, might help you gauge interest if you could relay your thoughts on pricing. I know my decision will be heavily based on price.

[james1_10018]

Hi Couch
Thank you for trying undertake this craving satisfaction of stereo improvement that many of us VXes have
I would like to add that in my opinion the addition of a sub would be better if we could have a combination of looks of Tone Mod aan functionality of enclosed sub. I think many of us dont mind cutting the rear panel proving its a good and neat job
just my 2 cents

[coachreed]

Originally posted by Randy712
I'm not a stereo freak but I wouldn't mind a 10" sub in the rear assuming it didn't just buzz the plastic I know you're far from production, but what would you give as a rough estimate of pricing? In the $100 range, or more like $300? Or $500? Just curious, might help you gauge interest if you could relay your thoughts on pricing. I know my decision will be heavily based on price.

The matter of buzzing the plastic would most likely not be an issue with a fiberglass part... it would by much more solid and dense than the polystyrene (I think thats the material used on the stock plastic). Towards the end of post #5, I mentioned a ballpark price of around $300. It is going to depend on a number of things which I will figure out during the building of the prototype. The biggest thing is going to be a matter of how much material a part will require to build. Also, like I said, if I have custom matched gelcoat so there is no painting required, that will cost a little... or I can probably get a close match that would be a stock color. The last time I got color matched gelcoat, I think I paid like $30 for a quart! But the price come WAY down if bought in 2-5 gallon lots.... WAY down.

Originally posted by james1_10018
Hi Couch
Thank you for trying undertake this craving satisfaction of stereo improvement that many of us VXes have
I would like to add that in my opinion the addition of a sub would be better if we could have a combination of looks of Tone Mod aan functionality of enclosed sub. I think many of us dont mind cutting the rear panel proving its a good and neat job
just my 2 cents

No doubt that the enclosed box you are talking about would be popular too, but I am personally concerned about rear storage space... but I'm sure not everybody is as concerned as I am. I guess if there isn't much interst in the plans I have, I'll just make my own, and then maybe think about making something more like Tone's.

TTYL!

Coach... aka Randy!

[paultvx]

Coach,

It was late and I quickly skimmed over your post so if I had misunderstood what you were proposing to, I apologize. On 10 vs 12, while I like the two 10w0s I had, the single kappa 12 I have now is just as good. Now, if I had a amp that is just as good as I did with the 10s, the 12 might be even better. Regardless, I think based on what you described a single 12 is probably best... if there is enough air volume. The kappa, for example, requires 1 cubic foot. I don't think there is enough there for two 10s with their own chambers... is there? A panel designed to take a 12 would be great since I already have one... though, if it isn't possible a dual voice coil 10 might be the way to go. Perhaps you can make your design be compatible for both 10 or 12 via an add-on adpater ring for those who perfer using a single 10. Just an idea.

Good luck with your project.

[coachreed]

Originally posted by paultvx
It was late and I quickly skimmed over your post so if I had misunderstood what you were proposing to, I apologize.

Not a big deal, no apology needed. I sometimes tend to rattle on and sometimes I jump around so much, its hard to follow me anyway! lol You should try carrying on a coversatioin with me IRL.

Originally posted by paultvx
Regardless, I think based on what you described a single 12 is probably best... if there is enough air volume.

A single 12" should be no problem as they have changed a lot since the old days... like I said, my JL12W0 is good for around .6 cubic foot... of course, if your a little short, a little poly fill will make up for it... and not really a bad idea anyway... we put that crap in ALL of our speaker displays we build.

Originally posted by paultvx
I don't think there is enough there for two 10s with their own chambers... is there?

I'm not sure exactly how much space I'm going to end up with, but if there is close to enough space for a pair of 10's, if you run your amp in mono and they are working together... it doesn't require that you have a separate chamber... some people disagree, but if they are in phase, I'm not sure why you would need it... just my experience.

Originally posted by paultvx
A panel designed to take a 12 would be great since I already have one... though, if it isn't possible a dual voice coil 10 might be the way to go. Perhaps you can make your design be compatible for both 10 or 12 via an add-on adpater ring for those who perfer using a single 10. Just an idea.

Yeah, somewhere up in one of my posts I commented that maybe I'd design the panel to accept a 12" sub, but leave it uncut so that you could put a 10" sub in there instead. Certainly this would work just fine... if you were concerned about not having enough space for a single 12", it would be just great for a single 10". As for dual voice coil 10"... I always run my subs mono... but I like running my VC's in parallel to drop my load and get more power.

Anyway, gotta head to work soon... better get the day started. TTYL!

Coach... aka Randy!

[james1_10018]

Guys what happened to this , I am still looking for this enclosure. Sis anyone undertake this ?

[coachreed]

Sorry... I had to leave town for the complete week last week for an install in MN... I hope to find my way back on track sometime this weekend. I am also trying to coordinate the rest of my system at the same time so I have tried to pase myself... trying to find my touchscreen monitor so I can start cutting my dash too. Anywho... I'll try getting back to it this weekend.

TTYL!

Coach... aka Randy!

[AlaskaVX]

Originally posted by coachreed
I'm not sure exactly how much space I'm going to end up with, but if there is close to enough space for a pair of 10's, if you run your amp in mono and they are working together... it doesn't require that you have a separate chamber... some people disagree, but if they are in phase, I'm not sure why you would need it... just my experience.
Coach... aka Randy!

I found that the speakers fight against each other and wear each other out over time if they are not seperated. They are both pushing up at the same time and one has to submit and go down into the box. They don't look right when they pound, it souns O.K. for a while but your putting unwanted stress on your subs. Thats my experience. I have a setup kind of like this and I had to reverse the possitive and negative on a channel so that one would be pushing down while the other pushing up. If they were seperated they would sound a lot better.

My dream box would be for 2-12's to be seperated in a curved box that fits in the back perfectly, and at an angle like a truck box laid on its back. I want to be able to recline the seats still so the top/front has to be somewhat skinny. It's not really stealth but it could almost look stock.

I think I am just going to buy 2 truck boxes and lay them on their back and see how it works for sound quality. Has anyone tried this? I won't be able to do this for a while due to lack of funds, but as soon as my supercharger is in and I upgrade my breaks, this will be the next project. I am planning on having an all Infinity system with the new 12.1D's and the 6.1 and 5.1 component speakers. This system should be rock'n by the time I'm through with it.

[Hotsauce]

wait, are you saying you like the sound of the speakers wired out of phase to each other better??? the bass doesn't sound all muddy like this?

John C.